Survivor vs Restored

[Tracker1]

The question of which will hold its value gets consideration in this article. Not an American musclecar, but still an interesting comparison

Gullwing Auction (http://www.carbuildindex.com/24198/survivor-sunday-original-56-gullwing-vs-restored-at-auction/#more-24198)

[Steve Shauger]

Yes, the question is what originality has it retained from it's original form, fit and function. If a car has deteriorated to such a high degree I don't know much can be considered original, and therefore why preserve. I have a passion for originality, but some cars are not survivors, they've just barely survived....

For me a well preserved car has more value than a restored car. There is something special about driving a unrestored car because they are like a time capsule and bring you back to, back-in-the-day.

The car in question looks like a decent car....

[DW31S]

I said it before and I'll say it again that few, if any, restored cars drive as well as an unrestored example of that same model. Today, I was told of a car that is allegedly/supposedly an unaltered original, and I am excited to pursue and possibly purchase it. I've been considering downsizing my small collection and sold one of my cars, however if this latest lead materializes I'll gladly pull the trigger.
The current craze seems to favor "survivor" and "barn finds", but rarely does my idea of a "find" coincide with the vast majority of the hobby. A high quality specimen that was stored properly, in my humble opinion, will always trump a like vehicle that has been restored. Similar to waterfront property, they aren't building any more originals and pricing is likewise reflected.

[NovaMob03]

Great news! Anyone who wants to trade a restored copo for my survivor Z, I'm ready <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/burnout.gif

[DW31S]

Key words &quot;LIKE MODEL&quot;!

[ScottG]

I will take a Survivor over a restored car also. Original and very nice cars have character that a restored car can not display. The restored car rarely drives like an original .. My observation and opinion.

[prototype]

Many stood in disbelief when these cars sold.

For me it's pretty simple....when your laying out that kind of cash it can be difficult to determine the exact condition of a car prior to restoration. Pictures can be deceiving and a good photographer can be quite selective of lighting, angles, etc to hide the sins. The finished product is spectacular. When your standing in front of these two cars it doesn't take much education to figure out that pretty much all of the parts on the unrestored car came from Stuttgart, Germany. Although restored cars look spectacular much of the end result has very little to do with the factory and suppliers that contributed to the original car.

If the car collecting hobby is ever going to elevate from hobby to history then the behaviour of the collectors will continue to mature into the way it is in the antiquities markets. The value of most antiquities is dramatically reduced when they are modified in any way from the original artist. In the collector car world the original manufacturer is considered the artist. Many now consider this value and the results of this particular auction put an exclamation mark on originality.

Caveat emptor.....the unrestored Gullwing was carefully prepared for auction....most of the interior was assembled from other remnants of cars that were restored, the end result was brilliant.....the price was magical.

Calling Steve Shauger.....please inspect my car before I buy it!!!!!!!

[Xplantdad]

What is up, Fred! <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif

[prototype]

Bloody cold Bruce.....it's been minus twenty for over a week.....looking forward to the auctions....I'll be down long enough to unthaw then come back

It's a dry cold though <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

going to try to get a Supercross race in but dang if they'd change the schedule I'd get three

[Xplantdad]

Phoenix Supercross is January 28th At University of Phoenix Stadium...not too far from my house. I don't work for the motorsports retailer any more...and they don't even do the Supercross parties like they used to...LOL <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

Back to the regularly scheduled program about Survivor vs restored! <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif

[RST]

Well I love good survivor cars ............... especially restoring them ..... OH POOP I said it <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

We at Mascar Classics love restoring survivors because we can better document the car. We just purchased this 1973 SD 455 http://www.transamflorida.com/923.htm

Its a very low mile survivor and we will post some pictures of the car unassembled and cleaned up before the restoration starts. We were able to get all of the added undercoating off without damaging the original paint or markings on the underside of the car ........... you will see from the pictures its amazing. This is by far the cleanest car we have ever had to restore and its simply stunning how good this car is! We will make a post next week to show the bones of the car, and then we will not be posting any more due to the fact that the car will be unveiled at MCACN 2017.

Happy Sunday Funday everyone <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

[cook_dw]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RST</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well I love good survivor cars ............... especially restoring them ..... OH POOP I said it <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

We at Mascar Classics love restoring survivors because we can better document the car. We just purchased this 1973 SD 455 http://www.transamflorida.com/923.htm

Its a very low mile survivor and we will post some pictures of the car unassembled and cleaned up before the restoration starts. We were able to get all of the added undercoating off without damaging the original paint or markings on the underside of the car ........... you will see from the pictures its amazing. This is by far the cleanest car we have ever had to restore and its simply stunning how good this car is! We will make a post next week to show the bones of the car, and then we will not be posting any more due to the fact that the car will be unveiled at MCACN 2017.

Happy Sunday Funday everyone <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif </div></div>


Im sorry but that just seems ludicrous to me..

[rts]

You would have to be crazy to restore that car!!!!!
How much better could it be????
Omg that's insane!!

[cook_dw]

Its obvious why you posted what you did in this thread.. I am disappointed in myself for even taking the bait.. Keep doing what you are doing and make the rest of the survivors out there continue to climb in value.. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif

[RST]

Darrell,
I don’t know what you mean …. “It’s obvious why I posted”?

I posted here because I prefer to restore cars rather than keep them as a survivor. The SD is my personal car and will not be for sale. The car is amazing, but I like to drive my cars and it scares me to drive a car like this because although low miles are on it, it’s still 43 years old and I would hate to blow the motor or have something fail and ruin or hurt the car. I appreciate survivors, however I prefer a restored car I can drive and drive hard.

If I am going to consider the market …….. Well, the market for survivor cars is very small ….. very. I know people love them, and get upset if someone like me restores them, however facts are facts, and not very many people buy them.

If I offended you are anyone else, I am sorry, that was not my intension.

Wishing you all a great week.

[Astock]

Restoring a car that doesn't need restoring. Re-doing the mechanicals for better performance is one thing, can always be put back to original.

[Steve Shauger]

RST, quite frankly there are many cars that need restoring, and should be restored. Taking a rare survivor not needing to be restored, and restoring it is blasphemy.

Regarding the survivor market being small, I disagree. Yes there's very few examples, but I know of many collectors interested in purchasing unrestored cars. As more and more of these time capsules get restored, they become rarer and rarer and we lose the connection with how these cars were built.

I love restored cars but not at the expense of sacrificing a true survivor. Yes it's your car and can do with it as you choose, but we'll just have to agree to disagree on this topic.

[njsteve]

I agree with Paceme.

A small market??? Really? I lost count of how many people tried to buy Enrico's SD Formula at MCACN. After a while I would just point to the 6' 8&quot; tall Enrico and say: &quot;You'll have to fight him for it.&quot;

Cleaning the undercoating and rust proofing off the bottom is ok with me but if you redo original paint that is in great shape to begin with, that's crazy.

There was a survivor white SD T/A at the 2013 MCACN that had a bad lifter and oil pump issues when I looked to buy it several years earlier. The new owner pulled the engine and rebuilt it but did not touch the outside patina on any of the engine parts. That was the way to do it right.

[nugeusa1]

I agree with pace me and Darrell but if you put out the money its yours to do as you please. if you placed two , lets say two copos one perfectly restored ( spending 50K to 100K or more ) and the other nice original paint, interior and with low miles ect I would take the survivor every time and I would pay more every time. the problem with restored you cant always know what you really have. may have been pulled out of a sink hole somewhere.

[RST]

Hey guys, thank you for the input ……… this car was for sale for more than a year and nobody purchased it, and it was on EBay for more than 2 months …….. So I don’t really agree with you on the people lining up to purchase survivor cars …… or at least this one.

Nugeusa1 you make the point about the problem with a restored car “is you don’t really know what you are getting” … I completely agree, that is why I purchased this car …. I know exactly what I am getting, and we will restore it with full documentation with hundreds of pictures as well as dyno results on the motor, specs etc. So then, if I ever sell this car, I can disclose all work performed etc.

Njsteve, you make the point that you looked at a SD T/A at 2013 MCACN and the motor had some issues …. This SD was at MCACN last year and available …. It did not sell, and I will not take chances driving this car with its original equipment that has been sitting for years.

As for the condition of this car, it’s very nice, however, the paint is cracked all over the car, and there are several areas where the paint is worn through etc. Once again, this car was for sale for more than a year and nobody stepped up to purchase it ……. I did, we will restore it and make it as good as we possibly can and it will be at MCACN 2017, hope you all come by and take a look at the car.

I support all feelings and respect everyone’s opinion, and I would never tell someone they are doing wrong with their property. There are people on both sides of this discussion, however as I said, I purchased the car and we excited about us restoring it.

With Respect,

Scott

[njsteve]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RST</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Njsteve, you make the point that you looked at a SD T/A at 2013 MCACN and the motor had some issues …. This SD was at MCACN last year and available …. It did not sell, and I will not take chances driving this car with its original equipment that has been sitting for years.

</div></div>

Not to get off track but I tried to buy that other car (not yours) maybe 5 years ago but the seller sold it to the current owner before we came to an agreement. I was all excited to do the engine in the same fashion that it eventually wound up getting done. It was the car in the famous youtube &quot;barnfind superduty video&quot;. The funny thing is that I think the reason it was parked in the barn in the first place was because of the oil pump/bad lifter problem.

I remember seeing your car offered several times on ebay and other sites over the past few years. The dealer that had it wanted a ton of money for it which was why they had a hard time finding a buyer. It was advertised as an untouched 10,000 mile car but they tried waaay too hard to fluff it up for sale and went totally overboard. They wound up really altering the untouched components to the point that people began to wonder what was wrong (not that there was anything wrong) - replacing the entire exhaust system and various A/C parts (aftermarkt POA valve, expansion valve etc), throwing on reproduction bias ply tires, shock absorbers, and spraying all that glossy goop all over everything above the ground when they should have just steam cleaned the underside instead and left it at that.

Just promise you'll take off those home-made fender trim pieces that they cut out of original fender trim parts, and then drilled holes in the fenders to install them. Ugh! <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif

Interesting car in that it came with whitewall radials from the factory. I see the original Uniroyal GR70x15 still in the trunk. Firestone 500 also made an exploding version in whitewall if you really want to live dangerously.

Can you tell me what the date on the starter is? Is it 1108436 with a date of 1B11 perhaps?

[67BelAir427]

Interesting comparison to the world of antiques and fine art. In Canadian law, the purchaser of an original artwork does not have the right to alter or modify that piece even though it it &quot;their property&quot;. Not suggesting that we need to use the law to protect survivor automobiles, but restoring a true survivor car makes as much sense as buying the Mona Lisa and then repainting it to straighten out her smile.

[napa68]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RST</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well I love good survivor cars ............... especially restoring them ..... OH POOP I said it <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

We at Mascar Classics love restoring survivors because we can better document the car. We just purchased this 1973 SD 455 http://www.transamflorida.com/923.htm

Its a very low mile survivor and we will post some pictures of the car unassembled and cleaned up before the restoration starts. We were able to get all of the added undercoating off without damaging the original paint or markings on the underside of the car ........... you will see from the pictures its amazing. This is by far the cleanest car we have ever had to restore and its simply stunning how good this car is! We will make a post next week to show the bones of the car, and then we will not be posting any more due to the fact that the car will be unveiled at MCACN 2017.

Happy Sunday Funday everyone <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif </div></div>

I think I'm going to get sick

[KENNY PASCOE]

How can you better document a survivor by restoring it ?? To me thats ruining the history and integrity of that car . If it needs restoration
thats one thing . IMHO that Trans Am looked great as is ... KP

[RST]

Thanks for all the positive vibes guys ………..

This car was for sale for a long time, any one of you could have stepped up and purchased the car and kept it as is.

Steve, I think the car was priced very fair for what it is, try to find another one in this condition, and the restoration will be much easier. I am sure you will agree, this car will be an amazing restoration and will be worth far more than the asking price ........ and I can drive and enjoy it without worry. This is my car guys, I purchased it to keep and I want to be able to drive it often.

I will post some pictures on a new thread of the car as we disassemble it. Oh and as for being able to document the car ………… as we take it apart, clean it etc., we will document every single part and share it in its as original status, as we have done with several cars that we have restored in order to share that valuable information.

Happy Holidays everyone.

[nugeusa1]

RTS, seriously good luck with your resto, I don't have anything against restored cars. actually I'm glad that cars are restored and saved. you have an awesome car fix it the way you want and enjoy it, its good that people all don't want exactly the same things.

[RST]

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/flag.gif

[njsteve]

And yes, it does have one of those 1108436 1B11-dated starters from two years before the car was built! Scott sent me a photo. Very cool.

[RST]

Thank you very much for the &quot;Heads Up&quot; Steve .... we did not know this! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2016/12/full-18271-54273-sd_starter.png

[njsteve]

It seems like no one did. In the end I'm kind of glad that Steve Shauger's crew dinged me on it because if he hadn't, I wouldn't have started digging. So far every unrestored car I've found (5 so far) has this bizarrely dated starter from a single batch made on a single day in February 1971! Even though the engines were all made in November 1972 that is still 21 months difference. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/shocked.gif

[L78M22Rag]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RST</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Thanks for all the positive vibes guys ………..

This car was for sale for a long time, any one of you could have stepped up and purchased the car and kept it as is.

Steve, I think the car was priced very fair for what it is, try to find another one in this condition, and the restoration will be much easier. I am sure you will agree, this car will be an amazing restoration and will be worth far more than the asking price ........ and I can drive and enjoy it without worry. This is my car guys, I purchased it to keep and I want to be able to drive it often.

I will post some pictures on a new thread of the car as we disassemble it. Oh and as for being able to document the car ………… as we take it apart, clean it etc., we will document every single part and share it in its as original status, as we have done with several cars that we have restored in order to share that valuable information.

Happy Holidays everyone.
</div></div>

There is a positive spin to this... the listing said &quot;This is the best original unrestored SD we have seen&quot; so somewhere someone is thanking you for restoring this car because his or her second best original unrestored SD just moved up to number one!

I have a difficult time believing that someone would pay more for this car in restored condition than others would pay for it as a survivor, even without factoring in the cost of the restoration. Who am I to say, because it's you spending the money....

[Xplantdad]

Do I get a ride when you are done Scott? I'm 'jonesing' for a ride in a SD455 <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/burnout.gif

[Pusher_Man]

Helmut, <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/haha.gif

Dead on brother!

[RST]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: njsteve</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It seems like no one did. In the end I'm kind of glad that Steve Shauger's crew dinged me on it because if he hadn't, I wouldn't have started digging. So far every unrestored car I've found (5 so far) has this bizarrely dated starter from a single batch made on a single day in February 1971! Even though the engines were all made in November 1972 that is still 21 months difference. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/shocked.gif </div></div>

Steve, another example of anomalies in manufacturing back in those times. Once again, thank you very much for pointing this out, very valuable information.

Bruce, absolutely you can go for a ride, in fact, we will fly you and your family over to the shop after MCACN and you can take it out and drive them to lunch <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

[Xplantdad]

Scott....nope! No need for that. We appreciate the offer, though!

Since we're only a few hours away, We'll come and visit. We haven't been to SoCal in a while (Hopefully we'll get out there before MCACN of next year-actually shooting for next February) and need to visit with all the SoCal car crazy folks out there.

When the car (and you are ready) just let us know.

BTW, We'd let you guys drive <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/headbang.gif that's good enough for me (us)!

[Salvatore]

Nice of you to offer that to Cousin Brucey and family Scott.

[RST]

Tell you what Bruce ....... you come by in February and we can show you and the family around Mascar and Sho-Air. After MCACN you are welcome to come for a ride anytime, and if the weather is nice at MCACN, we can go for a drive there <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

[Xplantdad]

Sounds great Scott! <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif

[Stefano]

I like that SD both ways, the way you bought it as is as long as it is safe and sound to use and I'm confident that I'm going to like it once it's MASCAR restored. My personal preference is an unrestored car to a restored one.......generally and in most cases and for a multitude of reasons.

Many of the so-called &quot;Survivors&quot; which exist today are what I call &quot;Revivors&quot; , which is a Survivor with restoration work. Some of the work is done so well that most would never know anything was ever done, including paint work.

Untouched and pristine original 'bench mark' / 'time capsule' cars are very few and far between.

On another sad note Scott's Dad just recently passed .........so please accept our condolences.

[Stefano]

While this may not have been the lowest mile muscle car I had ever discovered it was the closest to the day it left the factory / dealership when everything is taken into account.

The most original muscle car? (http://www.1970z28camaro.com)

[Ryan1969Chevelle]

So sorry to hear that.

Scott: Our prayers and condolences are sent to you and your family.

Dad's are precious!!!

Ryan

[RST]

Thank you very much guys, my Dad passed away yesterday, I am very blessed to have been able to spend the last 30 days with him almost every day. He went into Hospice 31 days ago, he was in tremendous pain, and the people at Hospice were wonderful to my Father and made sure he was not in pain, and was at peace. I am greatful for the time I had with him and we had great talks and much love. Take care of your health guys and gals, love your family every day like it's thier last ... it just may be. My Father is the person who enpassion my with the love of Muscle Cars and the cars we restore this year will be dedicated to his memory.

Wishing you all a great weekend with your loved ones.

[cook_dw]

Sorry to hear about your fathers passing. It's never easy to lose a loved one. My thoughts and prayers go out to you and your family.

[Steve Shauger]

So sorry for your loss. It's wonderful that your father passed his car passion on to you. I'm sure you'll reflect on all the times you shared working on, discussing and driving cars together.

Thoughts and prayers to you and your family.

[Salvatore]

Sorry for your loss Scott. Lost my mom a year ago on Dec. 14th. Never easy!

[x77-69z28]

Scott, so sorry to hear of your fathers passing. My Dad let me help him tune up his car when I was nine years old. My love of cars was born that day, and is going strong to this day over 40 years later! He is gone 22 yeas, and I miss him every day. He made me who I am. My thoughts and prayers to you and your family.
Buddy

[earntaz]

Scott -- our Lord needed another dedicated gearhead at his side ... your Father matched that need. Godspeed to your Dad ... TAZ

[RST]

Here is a picture of me and my dad when I was 19 in 1984 <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2016/12/full-18271-54454-img_7942.jpg

[njsteve]

So sorry to hear this Scott. He sounded like a real cool car guy.

[Tracker1]

Sorry for your loss Scott

[70-SS/RS-L78]

Sorry for your loss Scott, I lost my mom last November and I find myself thinking about her all of the time.
Mark

[firstgenaddict]

Sorry about your loss, your story of picking up the hobby seems to be quite a common thread... my dad has a picture of me at about 3 years old with my blanket in the back of a 1940 Ford 2 Tudor Sedan taking it apart... mom wasn't amused that I learned to use a screwdriver for within the week I had removed every striker plate, door knob, and electrical outlet cover I could reach and apparently they never found all the screws!
Coming from someone who tries to ensure a car I restore exhibits the qualities displayed by survivors which I have been around (dipped parts with runs, light sprayed areas, oozing sealer, painted edges on chrome and or aluminum valve covers, misted over spray on grilles etc...
Would the interior be replaced in your restoration? Probably a huge market for an interior in that condition. I'm still trying to justify the Historic loss of the the production anomalies and variances... Yes the car shows the variances in the current state and they can be photographed, documented, and otherwise noted, however will they be replicated... Such as the light spray(white misted) on the fender apron drops into the engine compartment?

[RST]

Firstgenaddict,

We will restore the car as close to our documentation of it as in its original state ...... the interior will be used in restoration, we will replace carpet, restore gauges and restuff front seats, headliner will be replaced as it is damaged. We will post amazing detailed pictures of car now that it is disassembled and the undercarriage is completely clean...... it came out amazing!!!

[John]

.... Sorry to hear of your loss. My prayers are with you and your family.

... He will be with you more then ever now.

[RST]

Thank you very much everyone for the nice comments about my Dad, I would also like to thank Mr. Cook personally for his very nice private message, thank you Darrell for your message, meant a lot to me, your a classy guy, much respect!

Merry Christmas everyone <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

[SBR]

[quote=Stefano] I like that SD both ways, the way you bought it as is as long as it is safe and sound to use and I'm confident that I'm going to like it once it's MASCAR restored. My personal preference is an unrestored car to a restored one.......generally and in most cases and for a multitude of reasons.

Many of the so-called &quot;Survivors&quot; which exist today are what I call &quot;Revivors&quot; , which is a Survivor with restoration work. Some of the work is done so well that most would never know anything was ever done, including paint work.

Untouched and pristine original 'bench mark' / 'time capsule' cars are very few and far between.


I agree and that is why I have no problem with a well documented restored car. There are so many &quot;survivor&quot; cars on the circuit that have had the bodies lifted, paint work, parts swapped out from other cars etc. To me, it's just another restored car with the intent to deceive and made to look old instead of new all in the name of $$ I have always wanted a super low mile untouched and well preserved 67 435 Corvette. Been looking for years and have not found any.

[KenMaisano]

I will defend Scott on this Topic. Almost all of these survivors are old worn out cars that have been puffed. The ones that have be preserved since new, that's a different story. With this SD we know Exactly what we have and so will the future owners. We have taken over 700 detailed teardown pictures. We also have saved over 500 hours of body labor by starting with this clean original car. Compared to most of the restored junk we start with. We just almost got burnt on a restored numbers matching 69 L89 By not knowing the history or bones of the car. P.S. if anyone knows the Whereabouts of my old Silver 69 Z/28 Survivor please contact me. I would love to have it back and do a full Mascar level restoration on her.

Kenny http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2016/12/full-13872-54912-690.jpg

[njsteve]

Scott, I was checking my semi-functional cellphone and it looks like you left a message on it a while back. Please give me a call again and I will be happy to trade SD455 info.

[COPO]

Scott,

So sorry to hear of your Dad's passing, but sounds like you got his love for muscle cars and that will continue on. Regarding your TA, having visited MASCAR a few years ago, I'm certain you guys will do a terrific job documenting the build and it will be a terrific example upon completion. While I appreciate there are some strong opinions about what to do with this car, ultimately it's YOUR car.

Merry Christmas to you and your family.

[RST]

I LOVE EVERYBODY <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

[Steve Shauger]

The intent of this forum is to discuss and promote unrestored cars. There is a restoration forum where restorations should be discussed. As the saying goes &quot;you can restore a car over and over but they are only original once&quot;. Some us like them bruises and all.

Please keep restoration discussion in the appropriate forums moving forward.

I love and own both restored and unrestored cars, but when a car like Skip's orange 69 Z, was found it blew my mind. To me there is nothing like a well preserved time capsule. Factory quality, flaws and all, they just get me excited.

[Postsedan]

Scott,

So sorry for your loss.....that is great advice you give. I spent all day with my parents yesterday. I taking nothing for granted, cherish these days.

May Dad RIP.

Dan

[cook_dw]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KenMaisano</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> P.S. if anyone knows the Whereabouts of my old Silver 69 Z/28 Survivor please contact me. I would love to have it back and do a full Mascar level restoration on her.

Kenny http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2016/12/full-13872-54912-690.jpg
</div></div>




https://i.imgflip.com/w18tb.jpg


<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/Charley.gif <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif


I wouldnt hold my breath on someone selling you the car back knowing itll get restored without you forking over crazy stupid money for the car.. We need a survivor preservation protection act in place.. Time to write the Senate and Representatives.. http://ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies/LS1Tech/gr_judge.gif

[Pusher_Man]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KenMaisano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">P.S. if anyone knows the Whereabouts of my old Silver 69 Z/28 Survivor please contact me. I would love to have it back and do a full Mascar level restoration on her.

Kenny http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2016/12/full-13872-54912-690.jpg
</div></div>

if that car is original paint, then i would seriously be interested in purchasing it and NOT restoring it.

dead serious on this one. i'd love to have it just like it is...and keep her that way <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

[KenMaisano]

She's original paint. I had it posted here for sale Forever. A couple of years ago, and No One would write a check for her in the $60K range. I finally sold it with a combo of carsonline and ebay. I believe it traded hands again last year. for the same $60K.

Kenny

[Pusher_Man]

never saw it, but probably before i got on this site. post your for sale link on here, if you don't care, or pm it to me.

depending on the other details on the car, i very well might be interested now, and would have been then.

[RST]

Paceme .... I am a bit confused ... the title of this thread is &quot;Survivor or Restored&quot; and we were discussing that ... we will not be posting any restoration photos, or discussing the cars restoration... we will however share original photos of the car to assist anyone that wants to see original documentation that may be helpful.

Cheers.

[RST]

Pusher Man ..... Kens Z 28 was a very cool Survivor, however the paint was not very good .... and the interior smelled horrible <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

Mostly rust free though and very cool. It was sold about a year ago ... we are looking for it as it would be a great car to restore and needs it ... lots of spot painting, etc.....

[Charley Lillard]

Silver paint on 69's never did hold up very well. They tend to look like crap.

[Pusher_Man]

thanks for the info guys. i was curious as to other aspects of the car, and didn't want to take up space asking those questions if they were already pointed out on the site in the for sale section.

[Pusher_Man]

What docs does that car have?

[RST]

Pusher-man I will look for the original post on the car and send u a pm.

[Xplantdad]

I PM'ed you the link, Scott

[RST]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/576658/1969-z-28-survivor-for-sale#Post576658

Thank you Bruce <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

[Xplantdad]

You are welcome!

[Steve Shauger]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RST</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Paceme .... I am a bit confused ... the title of this thread is &quot;Survivor or Restored&quot; and we were discussing that ... we will not be posting any restoration photos, or discussing the cars restoration... we will however share original photos of the car to assist anyone that wants to see original documentation that may be helpful.

Cheers. </div></div>

I Guess the rub is we are discussing the preservation of unrestored cars, your comments have been about restoring 11k mile 73 SD (and documenting the disassembly).

Now your partner Ken posts looking for his old unrestored 69 silver Z to restore. It's interesting when he was selling the car Z he echoed my feelings for unrestored cars &quot;I have driven this car, it's amazing, I have lots of fully restored cars and I must say, this is the best driving muscle car I have ever driven! It's fast, fun and solid!&quot;

I understand you're in the restoration business and you want cars to be perfect, in fact I looked at some of your amazing restorations at MCACN.

Unrestored cars are not perfect, but each assembly imperfection and the bruises each owner put there have a story to tell.

Look forward to following the restoration process on another forum...


BTW the Boss Cougar at MCACN really caught my eye....


Best,

[SS4Real]

Keep up the great work Scott. Look forward to seeing your progress pictures and description. While I appreciate and respect survivor cars, I too would follow the same path you are taking and for the reasons you mention.

[RST]

Hey Steve, understood...... I love your passion. I want to clarify something ...... in the last 5 years we have only taken in 1 costumer car 1. All of the cars we have restored but 1 have been purchased by Mascar Classics and restored for Mascar Classics. We buy the cars we like and .... at the time ..... we fully intend on keeping them ..... however once they are done, we just can't seem to want to drive them ...... so after seeing this 73 SD Survivor car for sale for so long, I decided to buy it and drive the crap out of it ........ well, after we got it, we saw that in order to make it road worthy, it needed a bunch of stuff done ..... then I was worried about the motor so Kenny pulled the engine to check out the internals and guess what we found..... a pinched cam Bering and had I driven the car much, it most likely would have trashed the motor, so we decided to restore this great car.

My advice, if you buy a survivor it should not be driven it should be stored as is or put on display. I gave this 73 SD more than 1.5 years to sell to someone that would do that ...... guess what, nobody did, so, I payed 109K for the privilege of &quot;in my opinion&quot; doing the car justice and restoring it, hopefully it will be the best in the world....... then after MCACN I am going to drive the heck out of it! HARD <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif it won't be for sale .... for any amount of money, it's my private car.

So the moral of this story is .... if you see a rare survivor and it's desirable ..... you better buy it while you can and preserve it, or stick it in a museum ..... don't drive it &quot;could have a bad cam Bering and you could ruin it&quot; and if you don't buy it, and it's for sale for more than a few month .... well me or some A-Hole like me just might buy it and restore it <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

Love all of you, respect you all, have fun, live every day to its fullest, love your life and have fun ... I do <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

[scuncio kid]

Below is a cut and paste from the Musclecars Wanted Forum and this Preservation Forum is kinda new so maybe it's time to start preserving the few survivors that are left vs new paint , chrome , interia ect.





WANTED: Original Paint 1969 Camaro
by JohnC
0
103
01/06/17 05:38 PM
by JohnC



Wtb survivor 1970 chevelle
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
by rrover
58
7103
01/01/17 11:12 PM
by Donnie



Wanted Unrestored 1967 435 HP Corvette
by SBR
0
191
01/01/17 04:17 PM
by SBR



69 L88 Corvette wanted to buy
( 1 2 all )
by 69 L88

[Steve Shauger]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RST</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey Steve, understood...... I love your passion. I want to clarify something ...... in the last 5 years we have only taken in 1 costumer car 1. All of the cars we have restored but 1 have been purchased by Mascar Classics and restored for Mascar Classics. We buy the cars we like and .... at the time ..... we fully intend on keeping them ..... however once they are done, we just can't seem to want to drive them ...... so after seeing this 73 SD Survivor car for sale for so long, I decided to buy it and drive the crap out of it ........ well, after we got it, we saw that in order to make it road worthy, it needed a bunch of stuff done ..... then I was worried about the motor so Kenny pulled the engine to check out the internals and guess what we found..... a pinched cam Bering and had I driven the car much, it most likely would have trashed the motor, so we decided to restore this great car.

My advice, if you buy a survivor it should not be driven it should be stored as is or put on display. I gave this 73 SD more than 1.5 years to sell to someone that would do that ...... guess what, nobody did, so, I payed 109K for the privilege of &quot;in my opinion&quot; doing the car justice and restoring it, hopefully it will be the best in the world....... then after MCACN I am going to drive the heck out of it! HARD <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif it won't be for sale .... for any amount of money, it's my private car.

So the moral of this story is .... if you see a rare survivor and it's desirable ..... you better buy it while you can and preserve it, or stick it in a museum ..... don't drive it &quot;could have a bad cam Bering and you could ruin it&quot; and if you don't buy it, and it's for sale for more than a few month .... well me or some A-Hole like me just might buy it and restore it <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

Love all of you, respect you all, have fun, live every day to its fullest, love your life and have fun ... I do <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif </div></div>

Hi Scott I just saw this. There are many segments to the hobby and it's all good. Glad you use your concours cars, too many are just wall art. The same for survivors, I drive both them both. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif

[NorCam]

I have never owned a survivor. Only complete cars with either an older restoration, or the full on restored cars that I have taken from project stage to concourse restored. Myself, I have always said i'm not going all out on this car only to find project creep where it goes but being a mild restoration to becoming a full on rotisserie restoration. Probably because I always try and have the best body when it's finished and then go too far with the quality of the paint job and final finish, then the rest of the car is put together to match the same quality of its fit and finish.

The one I am doing now was supposed to be driver quality and has far exceeded that plan, but will still be driven. My last full frame off rotisserie car that I completed a few years ago was also driven. I drove it to a Super Chevy show that was 300 miles away (in the rain), and wasn't afraid to drive it on gravel roads or on the streets before spring street sweeping was done. Yes it was black, yes it had (House of Kolor) custom paint and yes it was an ISCA best paint show winner. Didn't matter, I drove it and also went as far as putting it in a burnout contest and shredded a set of tires when the cars was only out of the garage a few weeks. Took days to clean all the rubber off the roof of the car and everywhere underneath it, but it was fun not treating it like a trailer queen.

I like all types of cars....but truly appreciate those who drive them.

As for survivors, twenty years ago that wasn't as much the hunt for many of us, but like a fine wine, we mature with age and now in my 50's I find myself wanting a survivor or two. I'm sure I will stumble onto the right one in the days ahead, and can now say that I have come to fully appreciate survivor cars.

[L78M22Rag]

And you'll have the same kind of fun with a survivor!

Good luck with your search...

[mike1971]

I totally agree! Just have enough insurance coverage just in case.The survivor may be harder to find and replace.