COPO Identification

[CopoCrazy]

Hello all. I am fairly new to the COPO world and am interested in purchasing one. I have been involved in restoration of muscle cars for about 6 years, but want to make sure I get my COPO purchase done right. What are some ways to identify a real COPO?

Thank you.

[GMH454]

Can't help too much technically, but something about let the Buyer Beware keeps coming into mind. Known history helps enormously, as does seller with credibilty.
Chev engines numbers are no guarantee of originality.

[COPO]

Suggest you start doing some research from the various printed material if you are serious. Since you didn't specify which COPO, I assume you are referring to the most common COPO 9561, ie. a 69 camaro w/iron block 427.

Beyond the obvious engine block numbers here are a few other things to check.

1) Silver grille (common to all non SS cars)
2) Single 3/8" fuel line from gas tank
3) On Norwood built cars X-11 or X-44 on cowl tag. (Having these codes does NOT mean it is a COPO 9561, could be a base car or an SS 350)
4) check for a 4 core radiator (most COPO's had curved neck)
5) Check driver's side outer rear frame rail for welded plate indicating the car came factory equipped w/dual exhaust.
6) most importantly check for "BE" coded rear axle. unique to COPO cars
7) cowl induction hood.
8) power disc brakes.
9) re-read the above post.

That's all that comes to mind. Good Luck!

[Horseman]

I also have been looking but just to darn picky. Learned alot from books, but they say don't always believe what you read. Go to the shows. And yes BUYER BEWARE. Good luck

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

The '69 COPO/Yenko Camaros can also be X66 bodies.

[JoeC]

I believe there were some 1969 COPO Camaros built in Los Angeles plant that may not have any X codes.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

COPO:
Does this mean that the first 50 '69 Yenko Camaros that had the X66 bodies received them as part of the 9737 COPO? I thought that it was a mixup, and that COPO 9561/9737's were installed in X66 bodies even though they were ordered as base trim cars. What is included on an X66 body?
Marlin

[JoeC]

try this link for the X code info infohttp://www.camaros.org/numbers.shtml#XnnCodes (http://infohttp://www.camaros.org/numbers.shtml#XnnCodes)

[COPO]

To further clarify a bit. The Norwood built COPO 9561 would only be coded X-11 or X-44. The first 50 COPO 9737 (Yenko's) would be coded X-66. The remainder of the Yenko's would be X-11 or X-44.

[Edited by COPO (06-30-2000 at 09:09 PM).]

[bkhpah]

It appears that most of the first 50 Yenko's were X66 bodies. The X66 is a style trim option that would have included bright tail light trim, Black tail light panel on all but Fathom Green cars. Black rocker panels on all but Fathom Green, and quarter panel trim pieces. The headlight bezels would be plain and no other moldings would be used. Also Copo Camaro's used five leaf rear springs, big block heater box, Special speedo cable code, 4 speed cars use a big block crossmember, a ton of special ZL2 parts in addition to the hood, best advise, hire a pro to look at the car before you spend the long green.
BKH

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Thanks Brian, that was the info I was looking for!
Marlin

[sixtiesmuscle]

[Edited by sixtiesmuscle (07-03-2000 at 05:53 PM).]

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

I have done some checking on some of my prior research in regard to the different types of bodies that came on the '69 Yenko Camaros. I know of a Huggar Orange, automatic, power steering, vinyl top '69 Yenko Camaro that was not in the first 50 but is an X66 body. This car was sold out of Yenko Chev. I also know of a Daytona Yellow, 4 speed, '69 Yenko Camaro that was in the first 50 but it is an X11 body. This car was sold out of Hugh White Chev, Columbus, OH.

I guess there are no distinct timeframes for these body changes, but like Brian says, on average most of the first 50 cars were X66 bodies.

Marlin

[Kurt S]

Correction:
An X66 body is a BB car without the style trim. X22 is a BB style trim car.

See http://www.camaros.org/diffs69.shtml for a complete listing of COPO features.

Kurt
CRG

[bkhpah]

Please explain to me what an X66 car is. I have worked on a number of these and they have all been the same. Tail light trim, Quarter trim, Black tail pan and rockers. Plain headlight rings. Am I wrong? X11 Yenko's carry all the trim including drip and fender mouldings. Without the black tail panel. X44 Yenko's received no trim level at all. These are the only trim levels that I have ever seen on a Yenko. Kurt S what are you trying to say about X66, I'm confused..
BKH

[Bad Boy]

If you are looking to identify a Double COPO, take a look at the front coil spring tags if the car still has them. The 396 and 427 tags will have a different designation. I believe they are YP and HQ respectively. I'll have to double check. I met a fellow who swore he had a Double COPO Camaro, yet this car had a black rear tail panel. I was a bit suspicious at first, then he showed me what was left of the front coil spring tags. The tags designated a 396 car, not a 427 car. Again, there may be some variance, but this one other place to examine if all else fails.

[bkhpah]

The only tags I have ever seen on a COPO or a 396 are HQ even though the HW tag was used as well. I have never see the YP tag. Also you can get a COPO Camaro with a black tail panel. I have seen a few examples of that. If the only evidence that a car is a 9737 is a HQ spring tag and it is a big block, you have really proved nothing other than it has the correct front coils. Paper tags rarely survive. Can you explain why you think a spring tag could ID a COPO Camaro when all else fails?
BKH

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

JoeC.
It appears that Yenko wrote a separate order form for each 'batch' of '70 Yenko Novas, these batches are separated by option groups and time spans. Yenko would order a batch of 4 speeds, then 4 speeds with power steering, then autos, then autos with power steering, creating 4 order forms for the first 125 cars. Yenko later ordered 50 more, but I don't know how he ordered them.

Yenko's order form only specified the COPO numbers, (9010/9737), and did not get into their specifics. Maybe the same for the '69's?

Marlin

[JoeC]

The way I understand it; the std. trim group base car came with 22 items (too long to list) the style trim group (RPO Z21) includes rear fender louvers, fender striping, front and rear wheel opening moldings, black body sill (except with colors 51, 57, 61, and 67), rear panel emblem, bright headlight and tail lamp accents, and bright roof drip moldings (except convertible). If you order the RS (RPO Z22) package it has its own exceptions but of no concern for Yenkos. The SS396 had its own trim group including special hood, special emblems, rear fender louvers (same as Z21), black body sill (except with colors 51, 57, 61, and 67), and black rear panel. Getting back to the X-codes, X44 = base car (will have just the 22 std. trim items). X66 = base car with SS396 (std. 22 items + SS396 trim items) X22 = Style Trim Group with SS396 (std. 22 items + RPO Z21 + SS396 trim). The Yenkos are even more confusing because the COPO form was a loose cannon. When Yenko made his 9561/9737 COPO form he can add and delete RPO's so a X11 could have had the RPO Z21 deleted or a X44 could have had the RPO L78 trim added. We would need to see a copy of the COPO form to see how the cars were ordered. Were all 198 Yenko Camaros on the same COPO or were there "batches" done using different COPO forms? Was there a fixed COPO form for all 427/425 Camaros then Yenko added "his" 9737? I hope copies of the COPO forms turn up someday. I forgot: X11=Style Trim Group (std. 22 trim items + RPO Z21)

[Edited by JoeC (08-02-2000 at 12:27 PM).]

[Edited by JoeC (08-02-2000 at 12:33 PM).]

[Edited by JoeC (08-02-2000 at 01:13 PM).]

[JoeC]

Marlin, Which COPO form was used for the Deuce? Do you have a copy you can email?

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

JoeC:
Yenko ordered the COPO Novas using the normal Chev. Nova Order form. At the top is 'CPM420', that might be the form number.

Yenko spec'd the L65 Engine; 350/265HP, and the M20 trans, JL2 power discs among other normal options. Then, on the right side of the form in the area entitled 'Additional Options or Special Instructions' is written;

'COPO 9737CA'
'COPO 9020' (this was then crossed out)
'COPO 9010'
'ZB1 (M.S.O.)'

Another interesting point on the order form is that the 'color' blocks have a 'V' written in them. Is this for 'Various' since there is no breakdown on this form for colors? Was the color breakdown supplied on an attached form?

I will try to get it scanned in, and send it to you.
Marlin

[Kurt S]

Joe C did a pretty good job with the X codes. I'll explain a different way.
Brian said that X66 is a style trim option and then describes it. The description is correct (black body sill and tailpan, 1/4 gilles), but it for a BB with the absense of a style trim option.
A X22 body is a BB with Z21 style trim on it and adds driprail and wheelwell moldings.

I thought X22 included both bright taillight and headlight trim. I need to check on that.

See http://www.camaros.org/numbers.shtml#XnnCodes for all the X code details.

The COPO's were very defined (remember other dealers used the same #). Yenko could not modify them each time he ordered the cars. The difference could be how the plant interpreted the order.

No known COPO's came out of the LA plant.

Kurt

[CamarosRus]

The old U.S. Camaro Club and there March/April 1994 magazine "Camaro Enthusiast" did article on the COPO subject.
Most of the info seems like its from Ed Cuneen. Article entitled 'Identifying The 1969 COPO L-72". Dont know how many members here have this article or would agree with most of it. Contact the NEW W.C.A. about new old issues. I might be able to Xerox the 6 page article and mail for a nominal cost. I do not own a COPO however my interest is high and I consider myself a friend of this site. regards Chuck Sharin/Seattle

[bkhpah]

I think the thing that we are tying to say is that unlike an X44 an X66 does carry with it some style trim parts. It may be the way all BB are designed, but you still must recognize that they do have a bright trim level even if it is only two items. An X44 should carry none.
BKH

[sYc]

Here is what I found when I restored my mostly original '69 Yenko Camaro a few years ago. It is a March built car, X-44 on the trim tag AND X-44 on the rear bulkhead in crayon. Base big block, no etra trim. The only options (besides COPO 9561&9737) were PS and automatic. In crayon was 427 inside of each front fender extension. The car was delivered as a column shift car. The lever was removed and a special Hurst floor shifter/console was added. Also added was a S/W tach and under hood moniter. Tom

[JoeC]

Kurt,
I have to disagree with you again. There were some COPO Camaros built in LA and there were some COPO Chevelles built in Fremont, CA. No 1969 Yenko/COPO's were built in CA. as far as I know.
I think the confusion on X-codes- comes from the duplication in the parts used. The Style Trim Group has a parts list, the SS396 trim group has a different parts list but it shares some of the same parts. The RS trim Group has another parts list again sharing some parts as with the the rest of the X-codes. Using the rear fender louvres as an example - X44 (base car) has no louvers, X11 has louvers from the Style Trim Group parts list; X66 has louvers from the SS396 parts list: X22 got you 1 set of rear fender louvers but you "paid for" two sets because of the duplicated parts list. Did I add to the confusion? The people on the assemble lines must have mixed up a few.
My point on Yenko using the COPO forms is that he was able to get big block X44 cars without paying for the SS396 trim parts which went against the normal order methods.

[Chevy454]

Kurt:

You don't have to feel like you are stirring things up...we are all here to learn, and that only happens by asking questions. A LOT of ground has been covered in this thread, and I have learned a ton already! Keep up the info, guys!

[Kurt S]

Sorry to stir things up. I don't usually post alot, but there are some interesting topics here. http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/smile.gif

I agree that they double charged people for some of the style trim parts. There was a different price for the convertible at least (only for Z21, not for Z22 RS).
The X codes told them if the 1/4's and roof rails got trim, so I doubt that got messed up. But the headlight and taillight trim....

I know of ~185 COPOs (many are long gone), but all are/were Norwood cars.

I'd be very interested in hearing about any LA built COPO's. Are any still around?

I wonder who chose to use the X44 bodies instead of the X66 bodies, Yenko or Chevrolet? I assume Chevy cause all the other known COPO's were X11 or X44 cars. Wonder why? Maybe cause they weren't SS's and thus shouldn't have the black tailpan?

And why were a couple of the Yenkos style trim cars?

So many questions......

[Edited by Kurt S (08-03-2000 at 04:17 PM).]

[Ed Cunneen]

The information I have found on the X code for 1969 COPO Camaros is as follows:
The first 50 Yenko Camaros ordered (built in January, 1969) had X66 codes.
This is because these cars started out as Super Sport 396 cars, and the
COPO order 9561 added and deleted from this starting point. Base Super Sport Big Blocks (without Style Trim)received the X66 code. There were no instructions in COPO 9561 to eliminate the black painted rear panel (396only), chrome louvers, or tail-light chrome, which was included with the the Super Sport option. The Yenkos were the first 1969 Camaro COPO's built. In Yenko's second order of 100 Camaros, X11 or X44 only were used. I have found no deviations to this information. I have a broadcast sheet on one Los Angeles built COPO Camaro (No X code).
All remaining COPO Camaros, to my knowledge, had X11 or X44.
If anyone has a 1969 COPO Camaro that differs from the above, please let me
know the Trim Tag information and VIN, and I will research it.

[JoeC]

Ed - Have you seen any 1969 COPO Camaros with the D80 next to the X-code? The COPO 9561 called for the spoiler equipment but I was wondering if Norwood ever stamped the D80 on the tag like on some SS and Z/28 cars. I have not seen the D80 on the few COPO trim tags that I checked.

[COPO]

Joe, I have seen the D80 stamped next to the "X" code on a COPO car. Mine does not have the D80 stamped. In an old "Muscle Cars of the '60's 70's" there is a brown COPO and a close up photo of the trim tag. I'm pretty sure it was an X-44 D80. I'll see if I can dig out that issue. I believe it was owned by Rick Dyer of CARS.

[sixtiesmuscle]

The brown COPO you referred to is a pretty well known clone/fake whatever you want to call it. Anyone else familiar with it? It was recently in Ohio until a new buyer got the straight scoop on it, then might have ended up at a dealer in Florida. Beware. There is also a questionable car on Ebay right now that has been changing hands regularly over the last nine months.

[COPO]

Joe, I was not aware that the spoilers were part of the COPO 9561 package. There is an original owner COPO in Jerry MacNeish's book pg. 95 w/out spoilers. It is a one owner, unrestored car w/original paint.

[bkhpah]

Spoilers are not part of any 9561 package. They are an extra cost option on the COPO cars. The Yenko cars had the spoilers as an option because they lent themselves to the stripes. I have never seen the D80 code on the trim tag on a Yenko before O6A. After O6A they are right beside the X44 D80. We have a O6A non spoiler COPO car right beside a O6A spoiler D80 car.
BKH

[Charley Lillard]

The guy selling the questionable COPO on Ebay has the same name that was on the Title of my old Silver COPO that has been on Ebay a couple of times recently. It was a real car.

[Bad Boy]

I own the yellow Berger Double COPO that is featured on the web page, and it originally came from the factory with front and rear spoilers. On the cowl/trim tag, the D80 spoiler designation is stamped to the right of the X11 designation. Also of interest is the fact that when I pulled the engine to restore the car, I found that someone on the assembly line had written D80 in the center of the firewall behind the distributor with a grease pencil. I'll have the car at the Reunion if you would like to stop and take a look.

[Yenkofan]

My car matches Brian's comments above.

It's an 06A X44 D80.

Gary

[NWYENKO]

My car also confirms what Brian has stated, it is an 03B X44 car no D80 designation. However the original Yenko window sticker shows as the only additional cost options power steering and AM/FM radio. Does this mean the spoiler was added later? The stripes on the ends of the spoiler seem to match the other stripes which are original.

[NWYENKO]

I have wondered about this AM/FM thing. I have what appears to be the original Yenko sticker that lists power steering $94.80 and AM/FM Pushbutton Radio $61.10. The car has AM only. Either the sticker is not real or maybe someone made a mistake. There is about a $60.00 difference between the sticker and the sales contract, maybe they realized that AM/FM was not in the car. I am anxious for you to look at it. Also while we are at it, were the original tires E70 or F70. This car had F70's on it with what appeared to be the original spare in the trunk so I replaced the tires with F70's.

[JoeC]

I believe an original AM/FM 1969 Camaro should have a jumper wire with an in-line capacitor connected to the blower motor and a fixed non-telescoping antenna.

[bkhpah]

Joe you are correct about the radio plus the AM/FM mast is different than the AM radio. Plus the original FM ariels have a larger ball on the end than the GM replacments that I see all the time. Correct tire size is E-70-15 Goodyear Wide Tread GT. I have been told that a few cars came with the Firestone Sports Car 200's but I cannot confirm that one..I also believe that the sticker you have is a very nice repo. Nothing wrong with that, just the wrong info printed on it. See you Sunday...
BKH

[bkhpah]

The air spoiler equippment is standard on a Yenko, so it would be an option and was factory installed but would not show up as an exta cost option since it was mandatory on a Yenko Camaro in 1969. It just does not appear on the tags till O6A. However the AM/FM radio on the list seems out of place. This was not a regular offered option on a Yenko. Are you sure it is not added? When I look at the car Sunday I will look for the FM clues.
BKH

[JoeC]

Another interesting topic on the COPO cars is the production numbers. Some people use the number total of 1338 COPO Camaros and COPO Chevelles built (derived from the number of engines produced) to estimate the number of cars built. The engines were built on a forecast of car production and I believe it is too easy to over estimate car production using engine production since it can be up to 100% inaccurate. There were situations where engines were assembled and stamped with a code for a car that was never built. If you use engine production to estimate that particular cars production number you would be 100% off. Another example is the 1969 ZL1 Corvette where over 70 engines were built and 2 cars were sold to the public.
According to Chevy documentation there were 700 COPO cars œin process” on July 7, 1969 including ZL1Ãs, Yenkos, COPO Camaros and COPO Chevelles. It is not clear what Chevy means by œin process”. What would be the trim tag date on a car that was œin process” in July? I guess the trim tag would get an Aug. or later date. If you take the 700 COPOÃs and subtract the 69 ZL1Ãs, 198 Yenko Camaros, and 99 Yenko Chevelles you get 700-69-198-99=334 remaining COPO Camaros and Chevelles built as of July Œ69. If you take the engine numbers estimate and do the same math you get 1338-69-198-99=972. That would be 972 engines left after July Ã69. ThatÃs a big difference.
(I subtracted the ZL1Ãs even though they were not included in the 1338 engines total)
If Chevy said there were 700 COPO cars œin process” on July 7, 1969 then they would have to have built 638 more COPO Camaros and Chevelles between Aug. and Nov. (972“334=638) to match the COPO engine production. I know the 1969 Camaros ran late into Nov.Ã69 but I have not heard of many COPO cars with a trim tag date of Aug. or later so I find it difficult to believe they could have made 638 COPO cars after JulyÃ69. How many 1969 COPO or Yenko cars have been documented with a trim tag date of Aug. or later?

[COPO]

Joe, great topic and you pose some interesting questions. My guess is Ed Cunneen would likely have the biggest database of 69 COPO trim tag info. I think you could likely arrive at a fairly close number of cars statistically, but much like the LS-6 convertibles, no one will ever know the exact number built.

[Chevy454]

Joe:

A good example on not using engine totals as production totals would be the LS-7 engines. LOTS of engines...but ZERO cars!

[Mis B]

None of the 40-50 Berger COPO cars fall into the August of later build date category. They had all already been delivered to the dealer by then.

[Kurt S]

We have about ~20+ COPO's in the CRG database that were built after July 7th. So they are out there.
But I agree with you, the 1338 is high. But how high?

FYI, CRG has been building a database of 67-69 Camaros for the past several years. We have well over 3000 cars so far. Individual car data is not distributed or published, only the results e.g. I recently crunched the paint production percentages and they are posted on the site. We als can help answer questions like above.

Any data sent our way ([email protected]) is appreciated and is helpful to all of us. I'd be esp. interested in any Yenko cowl tag data.

Thanks.

Kurt
CRG - www.camaros.org (http://www.camaros.org)

[Edited by Kurt S (08-13-2000 at 12:40 AM).]

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

NWest Yenko:
I have a copy of your window sticker from your prior owner, and believe the am/fm line to be an error. I only know of one '69 Yenko camaro window sticker copy, and it is in Ed Cunneen's book. I use this example to reproduce the window stickers. I know of no '69 or '70 Yenkos that received an am/fm, and don't know where your window sticker came from. The spacing and wording does not match the other example, but that doesn't make it wrong. We have several '70 Yenko window stickers that have typos, wrong transmissions, ect. and have different type styles. Do you have any background info as to where your sticker came from?
Marlin

[Yenkofan]

Marlin:

I sent you a copy of my window sticker, although I can not guarantee that it is an original window sticker.
Didn't you get it?

Gary K

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Gary:
Got your 'window sticker', did you get my package? I sent another one today, hope this gets me off the 'bad boy' list!

What you have with your car is not really a window sticker. It is a Car Invoice / Bill of Sale, and was not affixed to the window of the car as it sat on the lot. What we are referring to instead is actually a replacement window sticker. Yenko Chevrolet would remove the factory GM window sticker, and replace it with one of their own. These stickers had a large red and black Yenko crest at the top, then some car specific info, then some standard verbage regarding the COPO package ending with any additional options that were installed by GM or by Yenko Chev. These window stickers are generally only found on cars that were not sold out of Yenko, and seem to be more common on the '70 Yenkos than on the 67-69's.

Because the cars were ordered with just an AM radio, the only am-fm's or am-8 tracks would have been dealer installed. If there were any Yenko installed radios, they would most likely not be a GM unit. Yenko advertised the Lear Jet brand radios in his parts catalog, and probably would have installed one of them. I have been looking for a Lear Jet AM-8 track radio for about 4-5 years now and have found none. Anybody have one??

Marlin