Baldwin Motion Documentation

[RVOR]

I am soliciting opinions on the documentation Joel Rosen provides for his cars without original paperwork. I have seen the documentation that he provides which is a short paragraph stating the originality of the car with his signature (without signature guarantee of any sort). With the prices these cars bring, how will this documentation hold up in the future?

[MrMotion]

I beleieve that if you donot have the original paperwork ie: original dealer bill of sale, pop or dealer invoice, original build sheet probabaly impossible to have, and you give Mr. Rosen the Vin he has records to verify that the car was purchased at Baldwin Chevrolet but in the same case the car could have been only a Motion Conversion car but he will have service records verifing that the conversion was done at Motion Performance. Then he would issue, with a fee of course an affidavit.

[rbernat]

RVOR,
GOOD QUESTION FOR DISCUSSION.JOEL BELIEVES THAT ITS THE TIGHT ENFORCEMENT OF DOCUMENTATION THAT KEEPS THESE MOTION CARS SO VALUABLE.ORIGINAL PAPERWORK IS MOST DEFINITELY A PLUS .MANY CARS WERE ORDERED THRU BALDWIN CHEVROLET WITH THE MOTION PERFORMANCE OPTIONS AND WOULD SHOW ON THE DEALER INVOICE AS SO.(THERE IS A POSSIBILITY THAT JOEL MAY NOT HAVE THIS).IF THE CAR WAS ORDERED THRU MOTION PERFORMANCE THEIR SHOULD BE A MOTION ORDER FORM(INVOICE)I HAVE CARS WHICH WERE ORDERED THRU BOTH CHANNELS AND THE ORIGINAL PAPERWORK IS DIFFERENT.THE STATEMENT ON THE BALDWIN MOTION VERIFICATION FORM STATES THAT THE CAR IN QUESTION WAS DEALER ORDERED THRU BALDWIN CHEV/MOTION PERFORMANCE.NO MORE NO LESS.FORM DOES NOT STATE WHICH PERFORMANCE OPTIONS WERE ORDERED.JOEL USED TO FURNISH PAPERWORK ON PHASE THREE CARS IF ORDERED AS SUCH.I WOULD WATCH OUT FOR B/M CARS CLAIMING TO BE PHASE THREE'S WITHOUT SUPPORTING DOCUMENTS.

[COPO]

As these cars seem to rarely change hands, I am curious of market value opinions for a BM '69 Phase 3 Camaro, Chevelle and the '70-73 2nd Gen. Phase III Camaros. I was watching "Dream Car Garage" on Speedvision and they said a restored Phase 3 '69 Camaro was valued at $150K - $200K. To me that seemed pretty high. Opinions??

[bkhpah]

It's hard to believe that as one of the last living hero's of the supercar era, Rosen does not make himself more available to the public. It seems that almost all that you hear about him is that he is hard to deal with,etc,etc... If he was more open to the public I would have to think that his cars would be worth even more in the collector car market. As it stands they seem to bring strong money, but you can draw more flies with honey than vinegar. I would also think that if he ever attended a Supercar function that he would be a big draw. But again it seems that he wants his palm greased to even think about attending what other people wait all year to do for free. A little self promotion in the Motion arena and I bet his stock would climb. As it stands today, I don't really care..
BKH

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

COPO:
I agree that the $150-$200k figure is quite high, especially factoring in the general lack of cooperation, lack of documentation, and high price of the documentor. I know that a restored '70-'73 Camaro has brought $60-$65k, and that an unrestored '70-'73 has brought approx. $20k. (Both were documented before the '90's 'high dollar' craze). These figures are in line with the '69 Yenko Camaros, on both ends of the condition spectrum.

I also know that the 'documentor' has taken at least one person's money, and never delivered an answer as to the car's authenticity. I also know where he delivered a negative on a car, only to go and buy the car through an agent.

There are many who appreciate the rarity of the Motion cars in general, but would choose not to own one simply due to their appearance, (especially among us 2nd gen. guys). Most agree that the Motion cars are typical of the rude, and overindulgent '70's, and even with the resurgence of retroism, choose to keep our wallets closed and admire them from afar.

This being said, I don't see the '69 Motion cars being valued that much differently than the '70-'73' Motion cars, and certainly not in the $150-$200k range. I am sure someone might pay it at some point, but how many Otis Chandler's are there??

Any dissenters?
Marlin

[whitetop]

In reference to Brians thought, I just came back from the Mopar Nats. Another musclecar legend, Mr. Norm had a booth set up selling T-shirts, models etc. He was very friendy and cooperative with the fans. He was answering their questions in rapid fashion without an outstretched hand. From what I've heard he has been going to quite a bit of shows and has a huge following. Anyway, I still think Joels figure of 500 cars is bogus. I personally think less than 100 cars were Phase III, bought through Baldwin Chevrolet. The other 400 were conversions. The owner of the '69 Chevelle received a "paragraph" letter. Why not all the original paperwork. Maybe Joel does not want the owner to see the car was only a conversion??? Which would be worth less money. Also he told the owner only 3 Chevelles have been documented. C'mon Joel where is the rest of the 500 cars? I think Joel used the Phase III car ads as a tool to sell parts. Used the mystique of having a 11.5 second car to show the buying public that they were buying from a knowledgable speed shop. I think his prime motive was not in selling cars but the parts. Somebody made a reference several years ago in a mag that back then, they could not afford a Motion car but bought some of the parts instead. I've heard this from more than one source. I know a speed shop owner who had a shop in the '60's & '70's. He said he made a minimum of 100% profit if not 2-300%. Obviously this was before the Summit/Jegs revolution.
Again, my question is: Where are all the 500 cars today? Not to rehash a worn out old saying but I think it's time someone should put up or shut up.
Whitetop

Here is a situation I ran into about 6 years ago with one of his "conversion" cars. A guy in GA supposedly had two 69 Baldwin/Motion Camaros and had the paperwork to back them both up. He had one of them for sale and the price was right @ $10,000 and the car needed minor restoration work. I went to look at the car for sale and at the same time he showed me the one that his dad had supposedly bought new in late 1969. The car for sale was black with a set of ugly red stripes on it front & rear. They resembled the late 68 SS Camaro stripe that went across the nose and down the sides of the fenders ending on the door. Even the one on the rear of the car was the same but applied exactly opposite of the front one with the stripe going towards the front of the car ending above the 1/4 panel louvers. This car had Motion emblems on each fender, the tailpanel, and even on the hood. There were a lot of fiberglass body panels on the car, front fenders, lower front valence, inner fenders, hood with cowl scoop with a Grumpy style scoop mounted on top of the cowl scoop, and a 1 pc decklid w/spoiler molded in. All pieces were made by Moroso I believe. Also there was a mechanical Moroso tach mounted where the ashtray should have been. The car had a bolt in roll bar and had Cragar SST wheels all the way around. The paperwork he had for the car showed all of these modifications plus the engine modifications done to an L88. The engine had the tunnel ram intake with two Holleys on top, and the valve covers were the Cal Custom ones with the SS427 emblems mounted on top of the fins. I started getting suspicious when the cowl tag showed the car to be a Hugger Orange Z-28 because at the time I thought all Motion cars were modified SS396's. I started looking at the paperwork and all of the modifications listed were on this car. Then I happened to notice a work order date of 1974 and the customer's address was in VA. This is not what I wanted to see. The guy selling the car said that this must be the paperwork for the other car and he went and got another folder with more invoices in it. After examining what was there, the other car which was white was not sold new through Baldwin Chevrolet and neither was the black one. Both were modified for customers that had purchased their cars elsewhere on the East coast. The white car was modified in September of 69 and the black car was done in 1974! The black car was brought to Joel to made into a drag car to run M/P. The owner of the car was in Virginia at the time and I later found out he raced the car for 10 years before selling it to someone in Tennessee. I even contacted Joel himself about the black car and he remembered it because of the awful looking paint job they applied to it. However he would not verify it as a legit Motion car until I sent him $1500 eventhough the paperwork was with the car. Well I passed on this car as everything about it seemed "suspicious" and the guy sold it to someone in Augusta GA later that year. I don't believe Baldwin Chevrolet ever sold 500 Motion modified cars as more should have become known by now. I have read where there were supposedly 500 67 Chevelle modified to SS427 status by Motion so that the 427 could be legalized for Nascar. Currently I have only seen one 67 Chevelle that was modified by them and it was in a magazine in 1967. This guy needs to come clean and give accurate production numbers of cars he modified and sold NEW through Baldwin Chevrolet, that is if has the records to back it up. Like "whitetop" mentions above, Mr.Norm meets and greets the public and doesn't want his pockets padded for it and he was even more well know than "Mr.Motion" to most Chevrolet & Ford fanatics. Sorry for the long post but I wanted to pass on this story.....thanks, rat pack.....

[whitetop]

Kinda reminds you of the "Soup Nazi" doesn't it? "No information for you, out!!!"

whitetop

[GMH454]

Come on guy's ...... tell us how you really feel. Understand the feelings but wish to share a positive storey here. Time was 1986, (remember when a real phase III car went for $30,000?). Place Sydney Australia. I heard about a BM Camaro in South Australia, guy wanted $30,000 Aust. Still big money but a bargain here. A mag was going to do a photo spread and I hassled them into letting me look at all the photos. Was'nt comfortable so rang Joel. He was very helpful. Cost for digging thru the Attic was $100 back then, but for nothing, he gave me enough info that I passed on the car.
He told me that he got more calls each year than cars made (and that was in 1986)
Many years later another guy bought it without the Rosen letter of approval and wound up in a court case with the prevoius owner.
Maybe Joel has been over harrassed over the years by too many speculating opportunists

[tufrat]

The price tag of $150-$200 is high even for a Canadian show, just a thought

x

[Edited by hondo sinatra (08-21-2000 at 07:42 AM).]

[Chevy454]

I found this link to a 1973 Baldwin-Motion Camaro for sale while surfing on the 2nd Gen. board. It's listed here for $67,500, but someone on the other board said they saw it for sale a few months ago (on the same page) for $80,000.

http://trader.carscene.com/detail.html?511267_01

[Mr4speed]

I had to reply to this one,I have dealt with
these cars on several occasions and Mr.Rosen on several occasions. So let me give my .02
First of all unless it was ordered through Balwin Chevrolet it is not a "TRUE" Motion car.It is a hotrodded car that is no different than if it had been modified at your local speed shop. The same goes for cars that had parts via mail order installed.
Second Mr. Rosen Wants $1000-1500 (depends on his mood) to Verify a car. I have to question his ethics because on one occasion a fake car was given a letter of "approval" when it really was a fake.(I dismiss the letters as worthless)Unless the car has tight paper work(only 2 have that I looked at)I avoid Motion cars unless I can do a history search back to the original owner or close.
This is a fairly simple process and has even turned up several goodies on some cars I have researched (various makes and models),window stickers,paperwork,original rims,and most important PICTURES. I Looked at a ss camaro(supposedly a 375 car but the original owner still had pictures from the day he took delivery and the engine picture showed the 350 sticker plain as day)!
Most previous owners are thrilled to find out their car is still around and will tell you all you want to know.
Third why is the documentation so secret?
(I have to agree on the conversion theory on this)
The ZL-1 And yenko VINs are Available.What better way to stop counterfiting than to make everything public knowlege,This alone makes me suspicious.
The right thing to do would be for Mr. Rosen to give all the paperwork to some one to compile into a data base so we could see what is what.

[ed427vette]

I'd like to reply to COPO about the price of the Yellow speedvision Dream Car Garage car. The price is a little high. But in all fairness it is a very unusual car even for BM standards. First it has the '70 454 LS7, as the Camaro model year for 69 ran into the 70 year. It was a late 69. Unusual. Also the top notch televised resto. Other then that it is no less rare than any other phase III. It is one thing to say the car is worth 200K and another to try to sell it for that price. Not too many ass's for that seat.

[ed427vette]

Now I would like to reply on the 500 or so Baldwin Chevy Motion cars. I have lived on Long Island my entire life. My family, myself and my friends have lived about 10 minutes away from the Motion shop and many of us have been into the long island racing seen when it was hopping. Now 500 cars are alot of cars. I'm not saying Joel didn't make 500, but we have not seen too many, even back when he was making them. Who could afford them?? Also I don't beleive the 500 number refers to only phase III cars. It could include just the "standard motion package". People who just wanted body mods or minor upgrades. That seems more realistic. You walk into the dealer and say, "can I have that cool looking hood on my Vette". Car goes to Motion. Thats 1 Motion/Baldwin car. Most likely it includes any conversion, Baldwin chevy or other. Also I have met and spoken to Joel on several occasions. I have a close friend who knows him very well. Joel is hot and cold. If he likes you, you're in big. I know he has charged people big dollars just to confirm or deny a car. I also know for a fact that he has done it for FREE, if he likes you. Just the way he is. My good friend says Joel has extensive records. I beleive he does. I also beleive 500 is very very optimistic, more like half are actually Baldwin cars, in my opinion. But who really knows for sure. It would be nice if Loel was more forthcoming but that will never happen. I've met him and he is not a people person. Bottom line. You need good written documentation for anything rare. Prior owner history, all the stuff everyone already knows. Makes the hobby interesting if not frustrating. Problem is big bucks are involved. Good luck.

[JoeC]

There has been a lot of wrong info published about the Motion cars. One example is a book called CHEVELLE SS RESTORATION GUIDE. This book states that 500 1967 427 Chevelles were built by Motion Performance to qualify the car for racing. I have seen one 1967 427 Motion Chevelle in a 1968 magazine but there could not have been 500 built.

[rbernat]

there seems to be a lot of confusion regarding the number of baldwin/motion cars produced.the statements of the cars being too expensive when new is debatable.you could order a standard ss-396 car,be it nova,camaro or chevelle thru baldwin chevrolet and have motion add whatever you wanted while still covered under warranty.you got what your willing to spend. bottom line-all motion cars are not phase threes or even 427's.small block cars were even sold/modified thru b/m.the price of the basic car was listed in their order forms.all you had to do was pick what speed equipment you wanted.i remember a conversation with dave bean about the amount a cars being sold.he had stated that zoning was slow in alloting him cars and that he would have sold much more due to this fact.granted full bore phase three cars were expensive,look at what was ordered!but for every phase three made there were more standard b/m cars produced.and these are the cars that people think are just old hot-rods and not a piece of history.again look at the chevelle posted on e-bay last month.looked like nothing special except for the build sheet with baldwin chev. listed on it.

[sixtiesmuscle]

Are you saying that " standard " Baldwin Motion cars are just "old hot rods" and not pieces of history. How can any 427/454 conversion be any less a part of musclecar history than a Yenko, Nickey, or COPO?

[Edited by sixtiesmuscle (08-27-2000 at 11:51 AM).]

[COPO]

I think for most collectors/enthusiasts the differentiating factor is if the vehicle was sold as a new car through Baldwin Chev w/the Motion mods and has paperwork to back it up. As opposed to a car that was purchased new (stock) and was later modified by Motion. (normally not considered a BM car)

The Phase III cars are certainly the most sought after. Would someone today pay more for a small block Camaro sold new through Baldwin Chev. with Motion added Cal Custom valve covers and a hotter ignition? I know I wouldn't.


[Edited by COPO (08-27-2000 at 01:13 PM).]

[rbernat]

copo,
the question is do these cars qualify as b/m cars.yes they do.they were purchased and modified thru baldwin/motion before changing ownership.not modified at a later date.their collectable value would be higher than a normal 396/375 or z-28 car and also be given a motion verification form from rosen.

[rbernat]

sixtiesmuscle
i dont think you understood my statement.at this time many cars have been purchased with incorrect engines.without any clues(emblems,paperwork,ect)would your first impression be that this is a b/m car or a car hot-rodded in the past.there is no evidence on the cowl tag and if your lucky you might find a build sheet.many cars have been restored to dealer original only to find out somewhere down the line that it was originally a b/m car.

[sixtiesmuscle]

I hear you! It seemed like you were playing down the value of B/M cars as has been the case in this subject post. It would be great if Mr. Motion was more cooperative, and supplied more paperwork when his price was paid, but we don't control that.In my opinion, that should not lessen the value, or significance of Baldwin Motion 427/454 "transplant" cars. As TRUE supercar fans, why do we have to compare the value or importance of any of them? They're all great aren't they? A "Yenko guy" will always think they are worth more, and a "Motion guy" will think the opposite. In the end, they will always be worth what the owner is willing to sell it for, and the buyer is willing to pay. Thanks for the clarification rbernat.

[COPO]

I think we are all pretty much saying the same thing. That is, a car sold new through Baldwin Chev. w/Motion mods would be a B/M car. A car modified by Motion AFTER purchase would not have as high of a collectible value and would not be considered a B/M car. I just stated, to me personally, a non-phase III car that had primarily cosmetic changes would not be worth more even if it was a B/M car.

There seems to be very little written information on these cars, which I assume is primarily due to Mr Motion's generally uncooperative personality. I'd really like to see a thoroughly researched detailed book about both the history of the Yenko's and BM cars with some nice detailed color pictures and production info. Alan Colvin where are you?

[ed427vette]

COPO,
I 100% agree with you. If 71 Camaro was invoiced through Baldwin Chevrolet, then sent over to Motion just to have a L88 hood dropped on and painted, it would "qualify" as a B/M car. However, this is not a car that should be selling for $60,000 and I beleive most would agree. When looked at from this point of view, its conceivable that 500 cars were B/M built cars. However, 500 phase III and/or transplant engine cars is hard to beleive but not totally impossible. Joel was still making 454 Camaros in 1975. I'm not sure when the EPA stopped the Baldwin chevy connection, but even if it was in 74 and he started in 67 then that is 8 years of cars.

[whitetop]

Hello Rat Pack, (See Rat Packs thread above)
Found an original car feature on the white '69 Motion 427 Camaro race car you talked about. Chevy Action, January '75. Article said car sold to Chuck Hamilton who owned the Millington Pit Stop in Millington Tenn. Car was all white with Mr. H on doors. Car had Weiand Tunnel ram, Cragar Super Tricks, large Chrysler type hood box scoop (molded to the cowl hood), lakewood traction bars, finned rearend cover, AND a picture of the Moroso cable drive tach in the ashtray!! Front bumper was white. Article said the car used Moroso fiberglass and car was built by Motion Performance. I also have this issue on Ebay at this time.
whitetop

That was the white car he owned also. He showed that magazine article to me when I was looking at the black car to buy. Both cars were at his house then but the lettering on the doors was no longer there, just a few sponsor decals....Rat Pack......

[whitetop]

Ratpack;

I just read th article, it does not say the car was built by Motion. It only says the engine came from Motion, a Phase III 427 ZL/X Competition engine. I do not think this car was built in '69. The article refers to the car as being "fresh" and still not all the bugs worked out. Also: Cragar Super Tricks were not introduced to the public until early 1972.
Grumpy Jenkins and Dick Landy were given the first set of frontrunners in late '71. Grumpu first used them on his Vega and Landy on his Challenger. The rears did not come out until later '72.
Also the Weiand intake. That "second generation" updated style did not come out until late 1973 early '74. Hope this info helps.
whitetop