PSMCDR...new "tech"

[Chevy454]

For those of you who are interested in the Pure Stock Drags (such as I am), there is a new "development" in the way of tech. Dan and Bob have decided to have a "certified stock" class for those cars that are factory stock. I say "class", but the cars will still be running in the same group as the others, they will just have a decal indicating they are "certified stock", and not just "stock appearing". Here is the plan, straight from Dan Jensen:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The original intentions of this race was to get both experienced musclecar tuners and the novice owners together at one location with their cars. Hopefully, the novice musclecar owner would learn some pointers from the experienced folks, use them on his car, and hopefully experience the thrill of making his car go a little faster. To a certain degree, we've accomplished that goal.
Just like any organized race that's been around for a few years, if it's successful, it starts to attract a wider range of cars, and the experience of their owners. As a result, we've steadily seen the cars get quicker with each passing year. No doubt, it's added quite a bit of excitement to the race, but I think we've steered away from our original intentions for it to be a grass roots type of event. Sure, we want the seasoned musclecar owners there, but we don't want to scare away the guys that we're aiming for, those owners that haven't actually had their musclecars on the dragstrip yet.

From the latest posts I've read, it appears that many of you are seeing our intentions for the type of cars we are looking for. Yes, we would like them as stock as possible. But these cars are anywheres from 26 to 40+ years old, and very few have survived intact, so we realize it is too much to ask for "bone-stock" cars. We'd only get a handful. But there are lots out there that have rebuilt engines (with correct replacement parts, of course), some tweeking to the carb and distributor, and have a better exhaust system. Basically cars with simple, hands-on-type changes.

Bob and I still want to attract these cars. We still want to preserve the original intentions of this race.

We will not turn away any car that passes our basic tech inspection, just like all the prior years. But for 2001, we will be incorporating something new. It is not mandatory, but 100% voluntary. It will require preregistration with either Bob or me.
We are initiating a thorough tech (read teardown) called "Certified Stock". It is not a separate class from the other cars that do not get certified. As I said before, this is totally voluntary. Preregistrants will show up at Mid Michigan Motorplex the Thursday (Sept. 6th.) before the race. We will then perform a NHRA-style tech, checking combustion chamber cc's (NHRA minimum allowable), proper pistons, bore, stroke, valve lift, intake and exhaust ports, intake and exhaust manifolds, valve sizes, carburetor, and a lot more. After the engine, the rest of the car gets a going over.

We suggest, if possible, that the cars be brought to the track with the intake, one head (your choice which one), and exhaust manifold removed. That will minimize the work involved with just having to reassemble the engine.

We will have either the garage at the track, or a rented tent available to work under. Once the engines are buttoned up, we will then perform a compression test on all cylinders to help insure that no monkey busisness is going on with the other side of the engine.

Once a car passes this tech inspection, it will receive a PSMCDR "Certified Stock" decal to put in the windhield.

These cars will serve somewhat like a benchmark by which similar cars will be compared to.

We realize that the only guys to take advantage of this will be those who have already run fast and want to prove to the musclecar world that their cars are stock within the rules of the race. So far, two Mopars and three Chevys have signed up for the certification process.

Remember, this is voluntary only. I personally would like to see some Buicks take advantage of this to prove to everyone their capabilities. If any of you are interested, you can contact me at [email protected] for more information. Other than those that have already signed up, I wanted the Buick owners to have a heads up before it comes out in the May 2001 issue of MCR.

One more thing, MCR will do an extensive article profiling the cars and their owners as they go for the Certified Stock status. Also, Speedvision's American Musclecar TV show will be taping all day Thursday as well.

Before I close, I just want to mention a couple things. First, the Brewer's light blue Nova (the Year One Nova) was not disqualified in tech. It passed okay. The Brewers came back to the race this year because they heard of a Hemi Challenger that was out to beat them. Well, the Challenger didn't show up, and after the Nova went 12.20 at 115+, the decided it was in their best interest to withdraw from the race.

Two Novas were DQ'd. The silver and the black ones both had incorrect head castings.

Second, I do want to thank all of the GSCA club members for coming to the race. You guys were very gracious and accomodating, and really put on one heck of a show.

Thanks for letting me bend your ears for a while.

Dan Jensen<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Any thoughts?

[Edited by Chevy454 (10-25-2000 at 01:10 PM).]

[Rowdy Rat]

I personally like the approach that they took on this issue.

The only problem that I see is having the tear down/tech inspection before the race. For someone who is going to take the race this seriously, I would imagine that they're going to have the car tested and dialed in prior to the meet. The last thing that I'd want to worry about is putting my engine back together (and hoping it runs as well as it did before it was apart) AT the event. Most of the professional racing sanctioning bodies feel the same way: the cars are impounded and checked after the race. I would suggest performing the cursory tech inspection prior to the race to eliminate any blantantly obvious rule violations and an impound/tear down after the race for those cars that wish to be included in this "certified" class.

Just my thoughts...

Regards,

Stan

[moparts]

I think a guy would have to be totally crazey to take a perfectly good car apart just to prove to someone else that he built it leagle.

When did you say we were leaving???? http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/wink.gif

[moparts]

Good point Rowdy Rat

They could do compression and all the suspension checks before and the tear down after.

This would make it alot eaiser on the engine builders.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

I agree, I would not want to show up with an unassembled engine and then try to get it back to race setup after they tech it. I would rather wait till after.
M

[Chevy454]

The reason they do it after is because the race is not run on a ladder type bracket like a regular race...similar ETs run similar ETs. I, too, would rather tear down after the event, but I'm not sure if that's an option with the way the bracket is set up and if the track is available.

[JoeC]

The intentions are good but if the tear down is voluntary I don't think many people will want to disassemble a restored car. Maybe they can do something like use a mobile chassis dyno to check the winning cars. If the car pulls high HP numbers then they have to tear down the car or forfeit the win. This would only have to be done in the new separate "Certified Stock" class.

[Chevy454]

It's hard for people to understand what this race is like until you have actually been there. Believe me...I didn't until I went! It is a TOTALLY different experience than what I expected.

The "certified stock" is to give credibility to the event, by showing what truly stock cars run, and that they DO attend the event. The first year we went, we ran a '69 L34(?) Chevelle (the low hp 396), and it was running 13.50s. Let me say that again...13.50s. We ran him in our shootout, and luckily we ran 13.20s and beat him. It's not just the ultra-quick cars that are cheating...it's also the slower cars that have MORE to gain. This isn't meant to sound like sour grapes, that's just the way it is. It's hard to explain.

In my opinion, this will help the event by allowing the owners of original cars to "save face" by proving there combo is legit.

[bowtie3168]

I think that doing the tear down before the race might be a good idea. What happens if someone is running an illegal car and makes it all the way to the finals and then is found to be cheating? What do you at the end rerun the whole race? What happens if the cheater "knocks off" a legit car? It would be nice to know that eveyone is on a "level playing field" before the event starts. I have a good question, what is with the L-89 1968 Nova? Have they produced any proof that any 68 Aluminum headed Novas were ever built? I don't have a problem if someone runs a exact replica of a documented car but, I don't think that anyone should race a hybrid at the event.
Andrew

[Chevy454]

The '68 L-89 Nova is still up in the air. I haven't ran across anything that says there is such a beast, and Dan and Bob are looking into it as we speak. Anyone know anything about this?

[JoeC]

If Chevy built L89 Camaros and Chevelles it is not difficult to believe they would have sold a few L89 Novas, but I don't remember seeing any.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

What about '68 L89 Novas? Anything after the initial COPO Gibb Novas for a/t L89's?? This is a real gray area!!
M

[moparts]

Chevy454
Are you running for bragging rights or $$$$$$

If there is big $$$$ involved the prerace is probally best. But if it is just bragging rights what would it matter if it is after?

One thing about it if they do pre-race tear-downs a good mechanic will be worth a premium price. http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/wink.gif

[Chevy454]

Then maybe GM sold a few 427 Novas in '69;)! Just kidding!

[Edited by Chevy454 (10-26-2000 at 08:30 AM).]

[bowtie3168]

I hope that this race stays "for the bragging rights". Take it from someone who watches two days of bracket racing every week! There is nothing more sad than watching someone show up once a year for a specific show (like a Chevy, Ford, or Mopar specifc event)and to watch them get "taken out" by a "regular" or a "every weekend" racer who wins by sand-bagging and riding the brakes thru the lights. When I point out that that is a worthless victory the "regular" usually says 'Hey dude money is money'. THAT STINKS! Keep the event PURE. Don't have money changing hands or being put into a purse it clouds everything. I like to watch the "Class Run Offs" or "Record Runs" in NHRA Stock Class, you can keep the rest of the bracket racing. No Thanks. The point I am trying to get across is don't let this great "heads up", "run because you really care" event get ruined (like everything else has already).Keep it pure and support it!
Now back to the L-89 Nova. In the current issue of "Muscle Car Review" (November 2000) page 64, there is a picture of an L-89 1968 Camaro SS? Has anyone heard of a factory SS 396 68' Camaro? I have seen a real SS 396 1969 Camaro.What is with the L-89 option showing up in all of these cars? I know that in 68' I was told that Corvettes had aluminum heads but that was it. I am lost someone fill me in please.
Andrew

[scuncio]

I attended the Pure Stock drags at the Motorplex in September. Just couldn't believe how fast those Buicks were, and I seem to remember one red L78 Camaro that was cutting some blazing times. While I agree that it would be neat to verify a stock car and keep that class separate, I like the subtle (?) tweaking that the owners do to get their stock appearing, stock sounding musclecars to run deep in the 12s.
I can't really criticize, since my 70 SS Chevelle is far from finished. I'd certainly like to run it in the PSMCDR when it's all done.

[sYc]

Bob and Dan hope to eliminate any gray areas. Any questionable cars, such as COPO cars, will need to provide documentation to prove their legality. Thus, unless something new is found, no L-89 '68 Novas, no '69 427 Novas, etc. Cloned cars are legal, BUT must provide documentation that they are legit. As Rob mentioned, until you get involved, you can not imagine what goes on. The Buick and Studebacker clubs are already hard at work building even faster cars for 2001, doing whatever it takes to go faster. And when I say whatever, I mean whatever, such as a Stude with a Mopar head! I guess what is it gets down to is our Chevy/Yenko pride. We will race anyone they pair us up with, Buick, Stude, Mopar, etc., but we want to be running under the same rules. As per prerace teardown, that will be a big pain in the " ", but once done, we can then race knowing that whatever happens, win or lose, it truley was Pure Stock Drag racing. The event was started to allow a place for people with stock, original musclecars to get together and have fun. It was NOT started to provide a place for cloned muscle/race cars to race, even though they are welcome, if legal. Look at it this way, would anyone want to see a "cloned" supercar race a real supercar at the Supercar Reunion? The cloned car would most likely win, but who cares, that is not intent of either event. What makes the PSMCDR special is the chance to see many, many pure stock musclecars from the various automakers perform. On a side note, some day we hope that they might add a class for dealer prepared cars, such as Yenkos, B-M cars, Harrell/Gibb cars, Tasca, Grand Spaulding, etc. Would not that be fun to watch? Tom

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

I agree!!
M

[bowtie3168]

ditto

[Ray Morrison]

Concerning the PSMCDR Drag Racing Association and the legality of what can run in this event, in my opinion has nothing to do with what may be a clone, but rather if the questioned car is legal for what is claimed. This discussion centers around the L-89 Nova. Did Cheverolet ever build a L-89 Nova in 1968, or any other year, though 68 is the year of discussion? All the documentation I have does not mention any 68 L-89 Novas, though it is possible, but until there is proof Chevrolet built any that was available to the general public, I would have a hard time believing it should run in a Pure Stock event. There are a couple of factors to think about on this, Aluminum heads would get about 100lbs off the front end, giving better weight transfer and another advantage would be, if not mistaken, the exhaust valves were larger in the 842 heads. If I remember correctly, the 840 heads had 1.72" exhausts and the 842 heads had 1.84". If these cars were being built in 68, I believe Fred Gibb would have used this option on the 50 COPO Novas, as they were built to race, this being a weight saving option if for nothing else? Hurriedly, I looked at the information I have on the L-89
Option and I could not come up with any L-89 Novas even in 69? I have seen several claims there were 311 69 Novas built with this option, but I think they are confused with the 69 Camaro, as this is the number I have for them? My thought is, Can any be documented with factory paperwork? If not, it should not be allowed to run.

[Rowdy Rat]

Ray,

I agree with you completely on this topic. The burden of proof for this combination lies with the owner and currently, I am unaware of any documentation which confirms that any 1968 L-89 Novas were built. I also have my doubts (as it seems you do) about the 311 1969 L-89 Novas supposedly built. I'm afraid it's too much of a coincidence that the exact same number of 1969 L-89 Camaros were built and that the engines carried an identical broadcast code. While rare, you would also think that a few documented examples would have surfaced by now (L-89 Corvettes, Camaros, and Chevelles have); I am not aware of any at the present time. Anyone else know of one?

As far as the L-89 heads (casting 3919842), you are correct again Ray. The heads have a few changes that improve performance over the 840 heads normally used. A pair of 842 heads are typically about 72 pounds lighter than a set of 840 heads which will certainly help with weight distribution. The exhaust valves are 2.19/1.84 (vs. 2.19/1.72 in the 840) and the intake port has been slightly revised to improve port flow. In addition, I believe the chamber volume of the 842 head is a bit less which should bump the compression ratio somewhat (going from memory on this one - will verify this). Obviously, the 842 heads offer several advantages over the 840s.

If anyone has additional information on L-89 Novas, I'd love to hear about it!

Regards,

Stan

[Chevy454]

Very interesting, Ray! So, anyone have proof of ANY L-89 Novas? I wish someone would find proof of the aluminum heads on the L-72s, as I would LOVE to run them on my Chevelle!

Dad's Camaro, the best we can tell from talking to the previous owner, other people who knew the car, and other people that know about Francis Chevrolet and lived nearby, came with aluminum heads. I seriously doubt GM did it, but somewhere along the way before the first owner got his hands on it, it had aluminum heads put on it. And, naturally, he had problems with them. We have talked with a guy who knew of another Francis Yenko Camaro that had aluminum heads, and had the same problems. Not only did the heads give them problems, but Francis wasn't too eager to warranty them. Frank Radake said Francis gave him the "run around" on warranty claims for his car as well.

The original owner of our Camaro said it was a pain to get his car fixed, as they told him at the dealership it had "special" heads on it, and they would be expensive to fix...they woulnd't warranty them! So, the car sat for 6 months before a zone rep finally came and had Francis fix the car.

[bowtie3168]

Stan,
I know that 311 1969 Camaros were built with the L-89 option, but I was unaware of the 311 1969 Novas. I found out last night that I was wrong in my comment about the L-89 1968 Camaro, Chevrolet built something like 272 of them. I agree with you that the 311 # for both models sounds odd. I would like to find out more info before I assume that it is real.
Andrew

[StealthBird]

I can fully understand the reason for teardowns. Anyone that has raced (or knows someone that races) in a Stock Eliminator class knows that these racers can find 100 ways to œbend the rules”. At the Pure Stocks, solid lifter cars can easily have NHRA cheater cams, getting 50+ hp over the factory grind. On hydraulic cammed engines, the use of a hydraulic roller cam is virtually undetectable, and can produce another 50 ft lbs of torque with a substantial increase in hp. Only the owners know whatÃs in their own engines, but they seldom relay that info to anyone else. AllÃs fair in love and drag racing. http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/smile.gif

Since teardowns were never performed at the Pure Stocks, someone could easily build an engine using the lightest aluminum connecting rod (and pin) available, lightweight racing pistons, custom crank, and a roller cam. With less reciprocating mass, youÃll have an engine that will rev like your hitting it with a 50 hp shot of nitrous, and in conjunction with a roller cam, these œstock” engines can pump over 100 hp more than what they had off the showroom floor. Of course, the owner will just shrug his shoulders claiming ignorance as to why their car runs so fast. http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/crazy.gif

Because of all the hype and press given to the winners of the Pure Stocks, itÃs inevitable that people would begin to build œpurpose built” cars from the ground up to win this event (just like the Nova SS was that won the 1999 Pure Stocks). Odd, because there was no prize money offered, but some people will spend an outrageous amount of money simply to have bragging rights. Those of us that are more œseasoned” Musclecar fans quickly realized that 69 Nova SS 396Ãs did not run low 12Ãs on street tires in stock trim. Quite the contrary, as some original 1969 magazine tests claimed they were disappointed at how the SS 396 Nova performed, and one magazine went as far as to call it a œpig”. They were fast, but not quite the 3000 lb. big block terror that people expected, and usually ended up running in the 14 to 15 second range off the showroom floor.

One thing that bothers me though, is that on some powerplants (most notably Pontiacs and Mopars), a very slight amount of head porting can increase swirl and cylinder filling substantially, increasing low lift flow, and that can be virtually undetectable in a teardown. Grind marks can easily be covered up, and unless the person doing the teardown has an intimate knowledge of that particular cylinder head, cheating can and will occur.

I like the idea of a teardown at the Pure Stocks, but people will still find ways to skirt the rules. The bottom end of an engine can have a multitude of race parts that will be undetectable. ItÃs sad I know, but even professional NHRA racers are caught cheating every once in a while. Because of this, itÃs very hard to accept the etÃs these Pure Stock cars run, but itÃs indeed fun to watch! I, for one, applaud Dan Jensen and Bob Boden for their efforts, and love seeing the results, and wide array of Musclecars represented every year. My only œbeef” with the Pure Stocks is that IÃve run across a few people that take the etÃs these cars run as gospel, and think thatÃs what these cars were capable of running back when they were new.

I agree that dealer prepped cars should have their own class! It would be a blast to see a Baldwin/Motion 454 Camaro running against a Fred Gibb prepped ZL-1 Camaro, or a Royal Pontiac prepped 69 RAIV Firebird http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/laugh.gif running a 69 Yenko Camaro. Most of the rules could go out the window with these cars because of the different levels of preparation and equipment the dealers used, but it would be great to see them running in their own separate class at the Pure Stocks.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

I agree that Dan and Bob are doing a great job with this event, and I really enjoy going to it. The teardown thing would be frustrating for me, but I will consider doing it.
M

[bbdon]

The number 311 being the same for both Novas and Camaros just doesnt pass the common sense test. It must be a mistake. Especially if you know that the engine code suffixes were normally the same for Camaros and Novas. For example, an MQ code is correct for a 375 396 car for both Camaros and Novas in 68. And those engines were the same. I don't have any proof that L89 Novas were built. I have looked. The book Chevrolet by the numbers does not list any codes for L89 Novas. Also, the option does not show up on the Vehicle price schedule that I have, dated April 1 1969. It would be interesting to look at the same kind of price schedule for Camaro and Chevelle to see if the L89 heads are listed there. By the way, the only spec I can find for the 842 casting shows a 1.72 inch exhaust valve. The 074 casting used on the L88 and on the the ZL1 does use a 1.88 valve

[Chevy454]

Just wanted to let everyone know that we have made a suggestion to the folks at the Pure Stock Drags. Our suggestion is this. Have each racer wanting to run in certified stock sign up in advance, stating that they would agree to a full POST RACE TECH on their car and at that time, prove the legality of any parts in question. After a car's last pass, it would precede directly to the impound/tech area. If a car does not pass this post race tech, then all times, media coverage, etc. associated with this car is moved to the regular class. If some one refuses tech, all times, media coverage, etc is destroyed and the racer is banned from future events. We feel that a post race tech would be much simpler, as the cars could be put back together at home, rather then at the track. It is not the teardown that people dread, its the thought of getting the car back together in a timely manner, plus, getting everything set just right to run the times the car is capable of running. A post race tech would allow cars to be dialed in before they reach the track. This would make for more accurate bench mark times. Also, a post race tech would allow the officials and the media as much time as needed to go over the cars. Tom

[Edited by sYc (10-27-2000 at 05:48 PM).]

[COPO]

Great suggestion!

[Ray Morrison]

Stan,
I do not have any casting numbers, but looked at production numbers on the 67 L-88 Corvette, and find both the L-88 & L-89 options with production beginning in February, 1967. According to this information, 20 L-88's & 16 L-89's were built with these options? I know this doesn't fully answer your question, but this might be of help?

Concerning the exhaust valve size on the 842 aluminium heads, my reference lists them with 1.84 exhaust, also? These are Closed Chamber Aluminum Heads with 106.8 CC's. While looking for information on the 842 heads, I did come across another aluminum head casting number with no application, I did not know existed, that being 838. Is this the L-89 head? Does anyone have the specs. on these?

[Rowdy Rat]

Tom,

That seems to be the best solution to the teardown issue. I hope that Dan and Bob see it that way as well.

bbdon,

The 3904392 (1967) and 3919842 (1968-69) closed chamber aluminum heads did indeed use a 1.84 inch diameter exhaust valve and were the only big block Chevrolet heads ever to use this valve size. I don't know why Colvin chose to use 1.72 in his book, but it isn't correct. The 3946074 head used on the ZL-1 and second design L-88 engines in 1969 were the first to use the 1.88 exhaust valve.

There may have been an even earlier aluminum head used VERY early in the 1967 model year, casting number 3904387, but I have yet to gather any details on this head. Anyone have any information on this particular casting?

Regards,

Stan

[Chevy454]

Well, while I was looking up blueprint info over at NHRA.com ( http://www.nhra.com/tech_specs/engine/ ), I looked at what they had listed for the L-78/L-89 option. They show 2 aluminum heads, casting #s 842 & 401, in 1968 & 1969, their valve sizes are 2.195/1.845, and they were available only on the Camaro. Now, I know this shouldn't be taken as "the gospel truth", but that is what the NHRA shows.

[sYc]

The Pure Stock Drag Racing group has decided to stick with their original plan of a prerace tech. I tried to explain that I thought it would be much easier/safer if the cars could be assembled at home, after a post race tech, but to no avail. The cars will be teched the day before the event. Tom

[Chevy454]

Also, the date for the PSMCDR has been pushed back a week, from the 6th to the 13th.

Also, I have heard rumors that there will be a '70 COPO Nova that will also be participating in the "certified stock" tech...

[Rowdy Rat]

Ray,

Good information on the aluminum heads. All of the closed chamber aluminum heads that I have seen on production cars have been either 392s (67 L-89/L-88) or 842s (68-69 L-89/68-early 69 L-88). That 838 is a mystery to me, as is the 387 that I mentioned in my previous post. Looks like this one is going to take a little more research.

I took a look at the information on the NHRA site. The 401 head they have listed is probably a later model service replacement (I notice that they list this head for the ZL-1 as well - almost has to be an open chamber head if that is the case). A quick check through the current GM Performance Parts catalog would probably identify this head. The 077 listed for the L-88 and ZL-1 is most definitely a service replacement head that was never used on a production car.

Tom,

Sorry to hear about the decision that Dan and Bob made. Logistics may have played a part in that, but I still think that doing the teardown afterwards is the way to go. It's their show though... And a darn good one at that!

Regards,

Stan

[Rowdy Rat]

Ray and others interested,

3919838 turns out to be an early PART number for the closed chamber aluminum head with CASTING number 3919842. I think that this number may have been revised at a later date to reflect the casting number, but 838 is listed as a part number @ 1975.

Still checking on 387 and 401...

Regards,

Stan

[JoeC]

Stan - I have a listing with the part no. 838 as a alu. " Head, cylinder, w/valve guide" and part no. 072 as the second design alu. head.

[Rowdy Rat]

Joe,

Thanks for the confirmation. Yes, what you show is correct - part number 838 is casting number 842; part number 072 is casting number 074. Again, these part numbers are from the mid 1970s and may have been superceded, but they are correct at that point in time.

Now, anyone know something about the other two? I'm beginning to think that the 387 that shows as a casting number may actually be a part number for the 392 head - just a theory at this point. Can't find any reference to the 401 head. The search continues...

Regards,

Stan

[sYc]

So, will there be any other Supercars @ the PSMCDR this year?

M: will your's be ready? I heard Sipmson might bring his '70 COPO Nova down for the certified stock class.

Rob

[Edited by sYc (11-02-2000 at 03:36 PM).]

[Ray Morrison]

The 401 heads are listed on a web page. Check out: http://www.mortec.com/bbc.htm

They list two different heads with the 401 suffix, 3935401 & 12363401. There is more good information on this site for both BB & SB Chevrolets.

Stan & Joe, Thanks for the help in identifying the 838 heads.