OK guys...help me out here...

[Chevy454]

Ok guys, I have been keeping an eye on the rec.autos.makers.ford.mustang newsgroup for some time after I had a small "discussion" with some of the members about the ETs of 60s & 70s muscle cars. That newsgroup is the one I mentioned in another thread where they said the only muscle car capable of 12s in stock form was the Cobra. Anyway, Mike, Casey, Pete, Ron, Marlin...WHOEVER, how about "dropping in" and helping out with a little "insight". Oh, yeah, hey Pete/Casey...they also said small block muscle cars COULD NOT run 13s! (That ought to fire you guys up!)

(Note: if ANYONE needs help getting to the newsgroup, let me know, and I will hook you up.)

[Casey Marks]

http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/laugh.gif

[Casey Marks]

Being naturally lazy .... what is the title of the posting ..... ???? http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/smile.gif

[Ron Nies]

Well we could start with MCR top 50.Take out the Cobra and Viper and there is a 67 427 Vette at 12.80 done by Car & Driver and the 69 440-6 Roadrunner at 12.91 by SS&DI ! There is also the 70 Hemi Cuda at 13.10 and the 70 Chevelle at 13.12 and a 69 ZL1 at 13.16 so they are all in the 12,s or close enough to be there with a little fine tuning! I know alot of people have doubts about all of these road test being worked over cars for good showings but we will never know all the truth so we have to go on what was printed back then! Then when it comes to limited models what about Max Wedges and Yenko,s , COPO,s and so on but I dont know if they will count them! I guess they are talking any car you could buy at the Dealer and tag it and drive away as the factory built it? I honestly believe there were only a few that could hit the 12,s with a little super tunning just the way you drove it off the showroom floor! But I also believe alot could hit the 12,s with more modern rubber and some blueprinting and a fine tooth comb just like we see now!And how can a Ford board say no smallblocks in the 13,s when I remember a 71 Boss 351 Stang at 13.71 ! And a 70 1/2 Z28 at 14.11 I also remember a 71 340 Demon at 13.65 but it had headers and that was all! If you need more just give me a little time to do some digging thru the old mags as my memory is not as good as it used to be! Ron

[COPO]

How about the '69 Yenko Camaro in 7/69 SS&DI running 11.94/114.50 Only mods being slicks, headers and spring clamps. It ran 12.59/108.17 on the street tires.

[JoeC]

here is some comments for you Rob.
1966 427/425 hp, Car and Driver, August 1965 12.8 @ 112mph
http://www.corvetteforum.net/c3/superfast80/articles/C2RoadTests/CD66427-425.jpg

1968 302, Z/28 Camaro Car and Driver July'68 13.77 @ 107.39 mph
this car had dealer installed factory parts (2 x 4 cross ram and headers)
I believe that test Cobra came with headers on it.If you put headers and a dyno tune on almost any of the big block cars they would dip into the 12s.
A well tuned ZL1 Corvette or ZL1 Camaro may have dipped into the 12s without headers. Cars magazine tested Charlie's ZL1 in 1969 and ran 13.16 @ 110.21mph and it was later found to have a 780 vac sec Holley instead of the correct 850 DP Holley (no headers)


[Edited by JoeC (05-17-2001 at 10:45 PM).]

[Chevy454]

Duh...sorry Casey! The title is "Muscle Car Drag Times With References". I would appreciate any and all help that can be given! See ya there http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/wink.gif!

[Chevy454]

OK...here is some reading for those of you curious what I am talking about.

Here is the current thread: http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&th=d7d7c2c2d16c6741,11&ic=1

Now, here is a thread from about a month or two ago, the one I mentioned earlier: http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&th=5d35689fc77b89f8,73&ic=1 (This one starts off talking about late model cars, but turns into "muscle car bashing" real quick.)

These are from the archives at Google, so they can only be read there. To post, you have to sign up for the newsgroup.

[Edited by Chevy454 (05-18-2001 at 07:16 AM).]

[COPO PETE]

The unfortunate thing about all the old drag tests is that most if not all were before 60' times were available. In the MCR issue where we tested my COPO Nova, we could'nt get better than a 13.5 et., with a 2.3 60'. The time I got 13.22 we managed a low 2.1 60. One time at the Supercar Showdown it's was'nt till the last round we finally got the car to go 13.99. Different days and different tracks make for big differences. Alltitue is also a big factor. So there you have the same car, same driver, and same state of tune on three different ocations going very high 13's, mid 13's and a low 13. If some of these old tests showed a 2.3 short time and ran low 13's, on a different track or someone that could launch the car to a 1.9 short time, than you would have a easy 12 second run. Just my observation. http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/smile.gif
Peter

[Chevy454]

Pete:

I totally agree. But, if you read the second thread above (the thread from about a month ago) they believe the 60s-70s road test are gospel, where as a lot of todays tests are garbage. Someone even said they thought the older road tests were more accurate. They see it only as a one way street.

I went to Edmunds.com and spent about 2 minutes finding some road tests of cars they said could "whip" a lot of older cars, and they cried foul. Said I went and found the slowest tests I could, as most of the LS-1 cars they claimed would run 12s stock were inthe mid-high 13s. They don't realize there are too many variables to consider (like you said Pete), and that the older cars are less consistent than the newer "idiot proof" cars.

Hey, Pete, did you get the fax?

[Chevy454]

Well, Google has made it possible now for you to post messages to the newsgroup via the archive and your browser. It will be like posting to a message board...sort of. Just find the message you want to reply to, and click "Post a follow-up to this message" after the message. Pretty straight forward.

There is all kinds of info on the newsgroups, so it is worth it to check out Google.com, as you can search for just what you want to see. Enjoy!

[Belair62]

I gotta hand it to you Rob. You sure keep your cool with some of the crap you are taking from a particular guy on google.You may have to explain what AMA specs are ! Looks like he is just having trouble dealing with facts.Best of luck on the Certified Stock races. No matter what you do someone will come up with some off the wall reason why your car shouldn't be that quick.I'm gonna go have my crank polished so I can pick up 1/2 second....geez

[Chevy454]

Yeah, that one guy is giving me some grief, to say the least. It's kind of a shame, too, as there are actually some people trying to be civilized and are just wanting to talk cars, while that guy does his usual "jr. high flame war" routine. He's a usual pest over there, so I am somewhat used to it, I guess...

And, thanks for the "good luck"...I'm gonna need it, as I'm gonna be under the gun trying to get the engine put back together and running after the certified stock tech. Should be interesting.

[Edited by Chevy454 (05-20-2001 at 09:14 AM).]