1962 COPO Impala 409? First COPO?

[JoeC]

I have heard that some of the Impalas were built using the COPO system. The 63 Impala was built using RPO Z-11 so I guess there was no need to use the COPO system in 63 but I found this information on an Impala web site:
In addition to the 57 1963 Z-11 Impalas sold, "there were about 20 C.O.P.O. 1962 Impala's built mid to late in the year with aluminum front ends and equipped with 409's. These 409's had special features like the Z-11 intake manifold, special camshaft, heads, etc. There were also 18 extra sets of aluminum front ends made for that year and sold to race car drivers".
If this is true, the 62 Impala would be an early use of the COPO system to build high performance cars. There may have been some Corvettes built before 1962 using the COPO system. Anyone know when the first high performance COPO car was built?

[bowtie3168]

I was speaking with the owner of Dave Stricker's 1962 Bel Air "The Old Reliable" during last year's "York US 30 Reunion". I am not sure if the '62s had the aluminum nose installed at the dealership or if they were installed at the factory. The '62 is owned by a gentleman from Ohio and he bought the car at a swap meet in the early 1980s with the help of Dave Stricker himself! Unfortunatley Dave Strickler died of a heart attack while mowing his lawn in 1984.

Andrew

[sixtiesmuscle]

'62 Belair is an expert on this stuff, but, if memory serves me, no the '62 Z11 "package" was only available over the counter, so, would have been dealer installed, or, sold to basically anyone who wanted it. The story is that No '62s got aluminum front ends from the factory. Since Chevy wanted to sell Impalas & Super Sports, but, most racers put the aluminum on Belairs & Bicaynes in '62, Chevy decided to build the '63 Z11s as the only way to get the aluminum components. That, at least is the story I've heard many time over the years.

[Belair62]

I don't know if any 62's officially left the factory with aluminum.It has always been said that it was an over the counter,service parts type of program. I wouldn't doubt if there was a few though since Pontiac was pumping them out in aluminum in 62 from your friendly Pontiac dealer and even had some 61 aluminum parts.This is an interesting subject,maybe Jim Mattison would have some insight..

[JoeC]

In the 1998 MCR interview, Jim did mention that the 1962 409s may have been done using the COPO system but he was not there at the time. He worked in the Fleet and Special Order Dept. from 67 to 72.

[bowtie3168]

BelAir62,
Have you seen Arnie "The Farmer" Beswick's video about the history of his life? There is alot of great info on it. There is a great deal of "Super Duty" info. One of the many things that I learned was that Arnie's '64 GTO 2dr sedan came with a 421 SD and an aluminum nose. I know that I will be questioned on this but the video states it.

Andrew

[JoeC]

The 1963 421 SD Pontiac Lemans Tempest is a wild production car. It is probably the first production Muscle car if you use the definition that a Muscle car is a big engine in a non full size body. I have read that six coupes and 6 station wagons were built with alu front ends. In 1963 someone had a bright idea to run the Stock Cars against the sports cars at Daytona. The race was the 1963 Daytona Speedweek "Challenge Cup" and was an oval track race. There were Ferraris, Porsches, a Ford powered Maserati, and 427 Corvettes powered by the 427 Mystery Motor. The Stock car guys blew everyone away with a Ray Nichels prepared 1963 421 SD Pontiac Lemans. Driven by Paul Goldsmith it averaged 145 MPH to win. A J. Foyt was second in a 63 Z06 Corvette. here are some sites on Arnie "the Farmer" Beswick's drag cars. He does say that his 64 GTO was the only one to leave the factory with the alu front end.
http://www.grocerygetterwagon.com/history.htm
http://www.arniebeswick.com/photos.htm

[Belair62]

Interestings stuff.Arnies bio states the same thing about the Alloy GTO....he sure had some clout at Pontiac to get that type of stuff out the back door AFTER the GM racing ban.When Arnie made his comeback after his devastating fire,the car he used was from the original owner of my 63 SD Catalina,a gentleman by the name of Jake Howard. Sadly I am contemplating selling the old warrior.

[Casey Marks]

Not '62 COPO, but since the Poncho stuff came up ......

One of my best friends does all of the automatic trans restos for SuperCar Specialties (Scott Tiemann). Either last year or the year before, Scott did one of the (6) wagons you speak of. The trans in those cars were absolutely mind-boggling. Called the "Tempest-Torque", it was mounted in the rear of the car companioned with the rear-axle (think front drive Toronado style - only in the back). The "driveshaft" basically connects directly to the engine, and runs back to the trans. The "Tempest-Torque" itself was what was used during this time period, BUT, this did not use the same "off-the-shelf" internals that a regular production trans would have. The owner had spent years and copious $$$ aquiring legit SD Tempest-Torque pieces specifically for this rebuild. The SD parts had different hardness levels than the regular stuff, as well as "Experimental" stamped pieces, etc. It really was a neat piece. Hard as hell to do, but when it was done, it was a sweetheart. Many of the pieces had to be made from scratch because they were absolutely unavailable. The best part ?? The guy was going to make some passes down the track with it !! Too cool !

[Chevy454]

Casey:

Good to see you back again! I hope you have a better reception than I did over at the Mopar board!

Anyway, neat set-up with the trans in the wagon...reminds me of the setup that was in a 944 that I used to have. I had a LOT of problems with the shifter linkage (I guess the Germans don't do a lot of speed shifting like I do!)...how was the linkage set up on the wagon?

[REDZ]

Concerning the '62 Z-11 package, I don't know if it was a COPO program or not, but I think it is fairly well accepted now that Chevy did put aluminum front ends on 10 to 20 Impalas at the end of the '62 model year. I was told that these were all hardtop plain Impalas, no bubbletops, no Biscaynes and no super sports. One of these cars is in the Indianapolis area. It was orginally raced out of that area under the Zintmaster Chevrolet dealership sponsorship. Supposedly, the window sticker is still in the car.

My understanding is that the '62 Z-11 package consisted of only the aluminum front ends, with the trick heads and intake not being installed until the 1963 model year. According to Rusty Symnes, who has written a booklet about these cars and seems to know more about them than anyone else, the Tonowanda engine plant has records of 50 of the Z-11 engines being built for the '63 model year. If this is true, then the accepted number of 57 cars is about 12 to 17 too many....probably about 40-45 built with 5 to 10 spare engines. Normally, they produced about 10% spares which would indicate 45 cars.... but not much was normal when you consider that they were making these wild cars at all.

[Edited by REDZ (07-06-2001 at 07:49 PM).]

[Belair62]

Rusty has THE finest 62 Belair I have ever seen. Wonder if he ever looks in on this site ? As for the Ponchos,they also called that trans-axle the Powershift trans.It was a 4 speed according to my materials. It could be set up for a converter or a clutch! They also used a flexible or "rope" driveshaft which was connected directly to the crankshaft.What a strange piece. There were 6 DOCUMENTED Lemans SD coupes and 6 DOCUMENTED Tempest wagons. Look for Pete McCarthy's book Pontiac Musclecar Performance 1955-1979 for some really cool info and pics on these beasts as well as Swiss Cheese and the rest of the Super Duty Pontiacs.

[Edited by Belair62 (07-06-2001 at 09:33 PM).]

[Chevy454]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="">quote:</font><HR>Rusty has THE finest 62 Belair I have ever seen. Wonder if he ever looks in on this site ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bob:

I've always wondered if Rusty is ever on the net. From what I have read, he has owned (or still does for that matter) several neat cars...isn't he in IL also?

[69motion]

there was a alum nose floating around PA. last year i saw it at pittsburg parts arama the asking price was $3500 i thought that was cheap i took the mans number i look for it if anyone is interseted jeff

[Belair62]

I think Rusty is in Indiana. Jeff,if you happen to find that number for the aluminum nose pass it along to me.Can't imagine it's still available though.An old buddy out in St.Charles Illinois,Tom,forgot more about 62 Belair 409's than I know.Learned a lot from him.Not sure if he is online though. He is too cheap for that. (that should flush him out if he is online now! )

[Belair62]

Must have pressed button twice...duh

[Edited by Belair62 (07-07-2001 at 11:25 AM).]

[Tony S]

Hi, I am new to this board. I am currently investigating the history of the COPO system and found this thread.
FYI.. in a previous post....
I was speaking with the owner of Dave Stricker's 1962 Bel Air "The Old Reliable" during last year's "York US 30 Reunion".

The current owner Don Fezell considers Old Reliable to be a 63. He recently displayed his "3" Z-11s at the all GM National at Carlisle. The air cleaner covers alone are valued at $23,000.00. Sheesh.

In the same building were 5 of Gary Holubs Yenkos. Each in a different color.

COPO Heaven for sure..

Regards,
Tony Schaefer
Founder Chevytalk.Com

[Chevy454]

Tony:

Glad to see you made it! I'm just curious if you attended the recent GM Carlisle event? If you did, then you may have bumped into a few of the members of this board! If you attended the seminar on Yenkos then you saw Brian and Marlin, known as "BKH" and "Yenko Duece Registry" respectively here on the board. Plus, several of the members here attended, and are into the COPO cars BIG TIME.

So, I guess what I am saying is, "welcome", and I think you came to the right place to answer your questions!

[Casey Marks]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="">quote:</font><HR>..."Yenko Duece Registry"...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rob, isn't it spelled *Deuce* ???? http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/laugh.gif

Geeesh .... a Mopar / Olds guy hasta tell the Yenko guy how to spell Deuce ......! http://www.plauder-smilies.de/poke2.gif

[Edited by Casey Marks (07-08-2001 at 11:17 AM).]

[Chevy454]

Yeah, yeah, Casey...nice catch! Don't make me go an lock this thread cause a Mopar guy is here! http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/wink.gif

[Casey Marks]

Rob - "You have mail" .......

[JoeC]

They say you can find anything on ebay and I am beginning to think it is true.
There is a 1962 409 alu front end old drag car on ebay. They claim it is original but with an M22? I thought the first year for M22 was 1965. Seems like the dealers always throw in at least one incorrect statement but it is a cool car.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=592980854

[Edited by JoeC (07-09-2001 at 09:59 AM).]

[Belair62]

Neat car ! Big bucks !

[Tony S]

Chevy454:
Yes I did make the Carlisle Show but I missed the Yenko presentation. I had a great time although it was really hot and humid. I am from Southern California and don't get out much. ;-) I don't know how they intend to out do this years line-up of 5 Yenko Camaros and 3 Z-11 cars under one roof.

I look forward to reading your board here. Great stuff!

For anything non- SYC Chevy related I invite you folks to visit Chevytalk.com.

Thanks for the welcome.

[bowtie3168]

Tony,
Don Fezzell owns the '63 Z-11 Impala, Larry Brinkley owns the '62 Bel Air, and Jerry MacNeish owns the '68 Z-28 Camaro that were all raced under "The Old Reliable" Banner. Ammon R. Smith Auto Car Company was a Chevrolet Dealer located on Carlisle Ave. York Pa.(The dealer is now a wall paper warehouse). Dave Strickler was a mechanic who married Susan Smith,daughter of Vernon Smith the dealer principal of Ammon R. Smith Auto Car Company. Dave Strickler started racing seriously in the late 1950s in the York area and met up with a tech inspector at Lancaster Dragway who helped him in making his car run faster thru a carb adjustment, that tech inspector was William Jenkins aka later known as "The Grump". Stricker and Jenkins began to race cars with the support of Ammon R. Smith in 1961 with a 1961 Biscayne 348 Tri-Power (Maroon in color) and then went on to race at least two 1962 Chevrolet Bel Airs, a match race car and a "legal" car. In 1963 Strickler got a Z-11 Impala, in 1964 he went to Dodge. Strickler got one of the factory 1965 Altered Wheelbase Dodge Coronets, one of 2 or 3 four speed cars. Dave went back to Chevy in '66 with a Corvette Funny Car. In 1968 Strickler won the Super Stock Class Championship Title with his S/S E Camaro Z-28. Check out that story on www.z28camaro.com (http://www.z28camaro.com) .

Andrew

[Tony S]

Andrew,
Thanks for the education. I was unaware of the three cars using the same moniker. Great info! I am certainly glad I found this board.

Speaking of Bill Jenkins. You'll never guess who I had lunch with on Saturday at the Carlisle show.

Grumpy and I (http://www.chevytalk.com/show/pages/grumpy_jpg.htm)

Thanks again for the education.

Regards,
Tony Schaefer
chevytalk.com


[Edited by Tony S (07-12-2001 at 12:16 AM).]

[JoeC]

Bill Jenkins used numbers after the names on his cars. The 1963 Z-11 was the "OLD RELIABLE IV." The "Grumpy's Toy" name I believe started with the 67 Camaro and by 1978 he had the Monza "Grumpy's Toy XIV". May have been more then 14 "Grumpy's Toy" cars.

[bowtie3168]

Joe,
Yes you are right, there are many "Grumpy's Toys" cars out there. My buddy John Caliendo bought one of the Pro Stock Monzas, the "match race car" and ran it in the" NHRA Competition Eliminator"class.I have a trivia question for you guys: What was the name of the 1965 Plymouth altered wheelbase car that Bill campaigned in NHRA,AHRA competition and who owned it?

Andrew

[whitetop]

Andrew
It was called the "black Arrow" and was owned the Strickler..

Tony S
Do you have any other pics of the Camaro you can post. It looks great!! God, I love the look of Cragars in the morning...It feels like.... nostalgia!!
whitetop

[Edited by whitetop (07-12-2001 at 11:05 AM).]

[Tony S]

whitetop:

Sorry to say I don't have any more of that car. It did look awesome. I know what you mean about S/S wheels. I've got the new versions on my IROC-Z.

[sixtiesmuscle]

Just saw a picture of the '66 L79 Nova that I think was the first "Grumpy's Toy". Kinda makes sense because he was running a small block against all the "big block" Fords & Mopars in Super Stock.

[copo69]

The "BLack Arrow" car was owned by Doc Burgess and driven by Jenkins. The '66 Nova was tough in A/S but Jere Stahl's '66 Mopar was the dominant car in the class.

[JoeC]

There was also a Strickler/Jenkins 426 Hemi Dodge 2% A/FX (1964) car called "The Dodge Boys". I remember reading that a lot of guys were running the auto trans cars but Strickler ran a 4sp. They say that Strickler was so good with shifting his 4sp that many people thought it was an auto trans car.

[bowtie3168]

copo69 and whitetop,
Good answers guys, copo69 was completly correct! By the way, Jenkins '66 was a Non SS car and was one of two, Jenkins lost the #1 car in a towing accident.

Andrew

[69hurstSC]

Yep, the thread is 13 years old. Though I did want to post this correction pulled off &quot;The Farmer&quot;s website. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif

&quot;With the release of the new GTO's in 1964, Arnie again had his name on an order form
for one of these powerhouse muscle cars. This new GTO escaped Pontiac, the only
known car to leave those confines with an aluminum front end and no sound deadener.
Shortly after taking delivery,<span style="font-weight: bold"> Arnie immediately removed the 389 in favor of one of his
trusty SD421's. </span> Factory Experimental action was red hot, with the aluminum Dodge 426
hemi Rams and Ford 427 Thunderbolts blazing trails everywhere. Arnie was a feared
competitor regardless, and no opponent ever underestimated the reserved &quot;Farmer&quot; and
his now legendary Pontiacs.&quot;

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bowtie3168</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BelAir62,&lt;br&gt; Have you seen Arnie &quot;The Farmer&quot; Beswick's video about the history of his life? There is alot of great info on it. There is a great deal of &quot;Super Duty&quot; info. One of the many things that I learned was that Arnie's '64 GTO 2dr sedan came with a 421 SD and an aluminum nose. I know that I will be questioned on this but the video states it.&lt;p&gt; Andrew </div></div>

[300deluxeL79]

20 aluminum nose '62 impalas were built in july '62, A.R. Smith received 2 of them, one becoming OR III
OR 1 '61 biscayne was a single 4bbl 360 horse 409, later converted to 2-4bbls for O/SS

[Verne_Frantz]

I don't believe any official records have ever surfaced that confirm the 20 Impalas, but that number has floated around the hobby for many years, along with various numbers of loose sets of front end aluminum.
From the history I know of, I'd tend to believe it was less than 20. As far as them being early COPOs, I doubt it. Typically, any cars from that era that went through the F&amp;SO department had the COPO or F&amp;SO number on the trim tags. Those Impalas don't have that.
This is the first time I've seen this old thread so I'll add a few more things. Every one that has been accounted for was a Super Sport. None of them were built with any Z-11 equipment, but with standard 2x4 409s updated to '63 specs. That included cam, valve springs, exhaust push rods, exhaust manifolds and the single point vacuum advance Service Package distributor.

Verne <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/flag.gif

[Fast67VelleN2O]

Verne,
How many original 1962 aluminum front ends are still around would you say?

-Matt

[Verne_Frantz]

I'm aware of 9 of them, most on Belairs though. (not factory)

Verne <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif

[dvss1]

I bought a pair of 62 aluminum fenders out at carlisle in the spring 2009

[novadude]

Weird that they would have all been Super Sports. Add weight with bucket seats and console and pull it out by making the fenders light. Seems strange, but I guess the marketing types wanted to see the SS trim on the racetracks?

[PeteLeathersac]

Cool revived thread!
Nothing to do w/ Z11 Imp's or any alloy nose 62/63 cars but as for THE 1'st Copos, it was 1958...or maybe earlier?
Not sure where I got this picture from originally, could've been here and/or Verne...but check the below TT pic from I believe a '58 Copo Police car?
<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif
~ Pete

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2014/12/full-2506-19839-copopolice1958crushed.jpg

[Verne_Frantz]

Neat tag Pete. The 1259 was the Delray 4 door sedan, the lowest of the food chain. Black with gray interior. The extra numbers after the interior code are a good indication it &quot;might&quot; have had the police car body option which would include items like the extra sun visor (both padded), a foam rubber seat cushion, thicker rubber floor mats and the extra power lead through the firewall for high amp 12V service. But then, it also could have been a fleet car with other specially ordered body features. It's too bad the car isn't available for a close inspection. It could have been anything: FBI, civil service, taxi, etc. I've seen some Forestry and park service cars but they were always green or gray.
Thanks for posting that. I have a few other '58 COPO tags on file.

Verne <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif

[John Brown]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2014/12/full-461-19876-58_no_back_seat.jpg

58 sedan delivery wagon with windows instead of steel panels in the rear. Feds special ordered a lot of odd combination cars back then, and probably still do. I love it whenever I spot one of them. The oddest I ever saw was a Valiant two door sedan delivery built for the Air Force. Valiant never made a two door wagon so the whole car was very oddball.

[John Brown]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2014/12/full-461-19877-60_valiant_sedan_delivery.jpg


A picture of a 60 Valiant sedan delivery someone over on Moparts was kind enough to post to show that I wasn't completely out of my mind and imagining things.

[PeteLeathersac]

Love to see more early Copo tags Verne, was the one I posted one of yours also are there any known earlier than '58?
Isn't the pictured '58 Fed Wagon actually a standard order Yeoman 2-Dr. Wagon, not a delivery w/ windows added?
Cool Valiant Delivery, looks like it has a faded Gulf decal also isn't that an Opel Kadett on the track?
And not the '64 Pontiac but the other car, is it a '62 Poncho w/ modified wheelwell opening?

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif
~ Pete

[Verne_Frantz]

Pete,
In '58 Chevy offered both a 2dr and 4dr version of the Yoeman wagon (the Delray version in a wagon). Sedan Deliveries had a one piece tailgate and the Yoeman's had a lift up rear window and a drop down gate. If my eyes aren't playing tricks on me, I think the wagon in John's photo shows an inside latch for the gate so I think that particular wagon might have been the 2-door Yoeman.
I don't have &quot;that&quot; tag in file, but other ones from park service COPOs found in junk yards.

Verne <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif

[PeteLeathersac]

Thanks for the clarification Verne and I thought it was a standard Yeoman 2-Dr. Wagon too.
If you're sharing, I expect many here would love to see pics of any old Copo tags?

Happy New Year!
<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif
~ Pete

[Verne_Frantz]

Pete,
I went and looked through the photos I have saved and the one I found is actually the '58 tag pictured earlier. As far as other photos, they are in the files of a friend who accompanied me on most of my &quot;expeditions&quot; and was there to take photos while I carried my field research forms, flashlight and pen. I always asked him to photograph the odd ball or special tags. I hardly ever brought a camera with me &quot;in the bush&quot;. I know I Doc'd several COPO and F&amp;SO cars, either government service, police, taxi or private fleet (like a salesman's car).
I'm glad I started doing that over 30 years ago because all those real samples are long gone today.

Verne <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif

[Carleen]

First COPOn I have seen was a 59 Corvette dual fuel tanks. Then, I read about 10 COPO 61 Impala 409hp 409. And in 62 20 Z11.

http://i517.photobucket.com/albums/u331/Nikkewi/TheRedBulletTonyGauvinJr.jpg

http://i517.photobucket.com/albums/u331/Nikkewi/TonyKeith_vacation2005043_2-1.jpg

http://i517.photobucket.com/albums/u331/Nikkewi/Copy20of20old20pics.jpg

http://i517.photobucket.com/albums/u331/Nikkewi/northwinddurandphoto.jpg

http://i517.photobucket.com/albums/u331/Nikkewi/Proffit201.jpg

http://i517.photobucket.com/albums/u331/Nikkewi/DYNODON21.jpg

[Carleen]

Indy, IN. 9/2/61 S/SS Don Nicholson '61 409 2x4 13.38 @ 109
Long Beach, CA 11/7/61 U/S P. Petre '61 409 2x4 13.30 @ 108



Fontana, CA. 7/14/62 U/S Jack Bayer '62 Z11 12.80 @114
Fontana, CA. 7/21/62 S/P H. Proffitt '62 Z11 13.05 @115
San Gabriel, CA. 7/28/62 A/FX H. Proffitt '62 Z11 12.40 @113
B/FX Cone Chev. 409 13.19 @110
Pomona, CA. 8/11/62 S/SS Butch Leal '62 409 12.57 @111
Long Beach, CA. 8/18/62 F/X H. Proffitt '62 Z11 12.22 @117
Indianapolis, IN. 9/2/62 S/SS H. Proffitt '62 Z11 12.83 @ 113
Emporia, VA. 10/6/62 S/SS D. Strickler '62 Z11 12.05 @ 120
Tampa, FL. 11/25/62 F/X Hubert Platt '62 Z11 11.69 @ 117
Long Beach, CA. 12/1/62 F/X H. Proffitt '62 Z11 11.75 @ 117
Long Beach, CA. 12/8/62 S/SS Butch Leal '62 Z11 12.26 @ 115
Long Beach, CA. 4/27/63 F/X F. Sanders '63 Z11 11.93 @ 120
Long Beach, CA. 4/21/63 A/S T. Lacobson '62 409 13.11 @ 109
F/X J. Bayer '63 Z11 11.92 @ 121
Henderson, NV. 4/21/63 U/S Vans Autos '62 Z11 12.88 @ 114

[Verne_Frantz]

Carleen, That's a lot to digest in your post but I can add some comments. First of all, there was no such thing as a '62 Z-11. Late in '62, the '63 Z-11 engine parts became available and some racers added them to their A/S 409s and then ran A/FX, (as shown in the Hayden Proffitt photo) but none of that was done at the factory or as a COPO.
The photo of Dyno Don's '62 with the &quot;1962 1/2&quot; on the rear window signified that the engine had been upgraded with '63 425hp parts (not Z-11) through a service package that was released in April '62. Joe Gardner's Northwind was always a stock 409hp '62.
As for COPOs, there were 10 std transmission W engines shipped between June 8th and July 7th '61 under a COPO order. I don't know the specs on those engines and its really not clear if they were 348s or 409s, but Chevy released an RPO on June 8th '61 for the 2x4 version of the 409. Since an RPO was released, I'm not sure why a COPO would be necessary to obtain those engines. There had to be something else different about them because they carried a different (higher) part number than the new 2x4 409. During that same time, 34 COPO W engines were shipped with Powerglide transmissions. I believe these were probably 348s for some fleet purchase.

Verne <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/flag.gif

[novadude]

Verne - so were any 409/409 cars actually assembled by GM in 1961 full size cars? Did they build any after June 8, 1961 using the '61 bodies? Don't know much about 409 history, but I always that that 100% of the limited production '61 409 was 1x4bbl.

[Verne_Frantz]

That is a question I hope to find the answer to before I die. Several records indicate the RPO availablity of the QA (380hp) and QB (409hp) after that June date, but NO real cars have surfaced that I know of. There is also no found record of QAs or QBs shipped by July 7th '61. The only record of &quot;shipped&quot; 409s by that date are for RPO 580 which was the 1x4 360hp version.
The most unusual piece of that puzzle I've come across is a '61 409 block (cast 623) with a QA suffix, indicating the Spl Hi-Perf 1x4 engine (meaning it had the large port heads and matching intake) BUT it was originally installed in a 1962 Chevy! There was a huge delay between the assembly of that engine and the '62 it was installed in.
I intend to cover a lot of this topic in the book I am currently writing, but I will avoid printing any hearsay or hobby rumors that have floated around for decades. I like to deal with truth that can be proven.

Grumpy looked at the deck stamp on my '62 '09 back in 1982 and said, &quot;huuumph!&quot;. What does that mean? Absolutely nothing!

Verne <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/flag.gif

[old5.0]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Verne_Frantz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That is a question I hope to find the answer to before I die. Several records indicate the RPO availablity of the QA (380hp) and QB (409hp) after that June date, but NO real cars have surfaced that I know of. There is also no found record of QAs or QBs shipped by July 7th '61. The only record of &quot;shipped&quot; 409s by that date are for RPO 580 which was the 1x4 360hp version.
The most unusual piece of that puzzle I've come across is a '61 409 block (cast 623) with a QA suffix, indicating the Spl Hi-Perf 1x4 engine (meaning it had the large port heads and matching intake) BUT it was originally installed in a 1962 Chevy! There was a huge delay between the assembly of that engine and the '62 it was installed in.
I intend to cover a lot of this topic in the book I am currently writing, but I will avoid printing any hearsay or hobby rumors that have floated around for decades. I like to deal with truth that can be proven.

Grumpy looked at the deck stamp on my '62 '09 back in 1982 and said, &quot;huuumph!&quot;. What does that mean? Absolutely nothing!

Verne <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/flag.gif </div></div>

You're writing a book on early big Chevys? Be sure to let us know know when it's done. I absolutely want a copy.

[Verne_Frantz]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: old5.0</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You're writing a book on early big Chevys? Be sure to let us know know when it's done. I absolutely want a copy. </div></div>

Yes, its on '61-'64 full size. NO racing or modified stuff. Just the way they were delivered. Thanks for your support.

Verne <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif

[RPOLS3]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: old5.0</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

You're writing a book on early big Chevys? Be sure to let us know know when it's done. I absolutely want a copy. </div></div>

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