December '01 feature car

[Casey Marks]

OK - by now, y'all are use to my *beginner* Supercar questions ...... so bear with me ...... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif As I read the Bio, I gather that Pete's car is one of two TOTAL, or is it one of two delivered to Canada ?<p>Either way, that car is one BAD @$$ hombre' !! Looks great, and Pete's not afraid to run it either. That's what it was made for. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gifp>PS- Maybe Santa could bring one of those Hot Babe posters as a *stocking stuffer* ...... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[MikeA]

Casey,

COPO Pete's car is one of two deliverd to Canada.

Mike

[Chevy454]

Casey:

It's one of 2 delivered to Canada. It's essentially the same car as a Yenko Deuce, except it doesn't have the Yenko additions (stripes, emblems, decals, etc.).

[Casey Marks]

Continuation of the question .....

Does that mean that the rest of the US delivered COPO Nova's were converted to Deuce's ? (I think that's the way I intended to ask the question http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/smile.gif )

Or were there also US delivered COPO Nova's that were left as just that ?????

[COPO PETE]

All 1970 COPO Nova's in the US were delivered to Yenko and transformed into "the Deuce"!
They are rumours of some, but a documented car has never been found!
Peter

[Stefano]

Which plant produced this COPO?

[MikeA]

I think all '70 COPO Novas were made at Willow Run, MI. Someone please confirm that.

Mike

[Edited by MikeA (12-03-2001 at 07:58 PM).]

[Belair62]

Nice car Pete.Is there any list of known dealers who may have sold a COPO Nova ? I posted a while ago during a High School Cars topic about a friend who had an Astro blue Nova SS Lt1 but I don't remember if it was a 70 or 71...it was sold out of Mancuso Chevrolet in Skokie Illinois.I can't get in touch with him anymore to verify.

[COPO]

The link on the feature car does not seem to be working. I am still getting last month's car. Was reading an old MCR last night and saw an article of this car. Certainly a sleeper.

[Chevy454]

Charlie:

You need to refresh your browser. It may take refreshing several times, but the page has been updated.

[COPO PETE]

Willow Run is correct. Marlin will have a list of dealers that the '70 Yenko's could be ordered from.
Peter

Me too. But when I go to past feature cars it is there. Awesome car Pete. Was it sold at Jack Douglas and you pulled the stripes off? (JUST KIDDING!!)>

[COPO]

Rob, not sure why, but the link definitely does not work for me. I see Pete's COPO Nova on the home page, but the link to more info pulls up the Nov. feature information. Have refreshed bowser numerous times, but still getting the Nov. information.

[Edited by COPO (12-04-2001 at 07:28 AM).]

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Casey;
There has never been a documented LT1 COPO Nova found in the U.S. that was not a Yenko Deuce. I have chased several 'COPO' Novas, only to find out that they were lame attempts to duplicate Peter's car.

The two that went to Canada were actually from an initial order of 10 cars by Central (?, Pete). Apparently, GM of Canada has not uncovered an additional 8 cars on it's papework so Pete's car is one of two that went to Canada.

All Novas produced from '68 on were produced at Willow Run, Mich. inlcuding the COPO's. The COPO LT1 engines came from the Flint, Mich. assy plant not Tonawanda like some POP's are coded. The list of dealerships that received Yenko Deuce Novas is long, I will try to download my list but my new computer doesn't have a disc drive!
M

[Chevy454]

COPO/Yenko:

I just had one of those "DUH!" moments...the link below the picture (where it says December 2001) of Pete's Nova takes you to the November car, whereas the picture itself takes you to Pete's car. Sooo...time to fix a link... http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/smile.gif

[Rat_Pack]

Pete, now I know why you guys like to stay where it is cold. I see that your car came with the optional full body heater! Neat car, just love that silver............RatPack........

Oh guys just click on the picture and the article will come up but it does not work on the link below it though.............

[sixtiesmuscle]

Well Dave, I can see why you would be jealous for not having Douglas Yenko/COPO. There is a case to be made that 1 of the 22 or so Camaros he striped with Don Yenko's approval and authorization should be considered more rare than 1 of 198 that merely got shipped to PA. to have stripes applied. They were sold as Yenko Camaros to customere who believed they were buying Yenko Camaros from the authorized Yenko dealer for Chicagoland.
I know we have beat this subject before, but, don't throw stones, and, I won't have to stand up for my fellow Chicagolanders. Oh yeah, and my car. [That's a disclaimer]

[Chevy454]

Link fixed guys. http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/smile.gif

[Stefano]

Yeah I'll second that sixtiesmuscle, not that I would have a vested interest or any such thing.

Douglass did state ,that he sold at least one 1969 Yenko 427 Nova. He was not certain if it was one that Yenko ordered or that he ordered direct.

Hopefully the "recently uncovered estate documents" will shed some light on this matter as well.

BTW ,Jack Douglass mentioned that Yenko Chevrolet had a traveling sales representative to promote the Yenko Cars.
Does anyone have info. regarding this individual?

Jack doesn't remember his name, but he does remember his beverage of choice. He drank Jack Danials and milk ,at lunch.

Another important piece of Douglass trivia is that all Douglass COPOs, even the ones without stripes were/are faster/quicker than Yenko Deuces. The exception of course would be a COPO LT1, without stripes ,which is much lighter and has less wind drag and thus much faster/Quicker.

[Chevy454]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="">quote:</font><HR>BTW ,Jack Douglass mentioned that Yenko Chevrolet had a traveling sales representative to promote the Yenko Cars.
Does anyone have info. regarding this individual?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This would have been Jim Spencer, of Span, Inc.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="">quote:</font><HR>Douglass did state ,that he sold at least one 1969 Yenko 427 Nova. He was not certain if it was one that Yenko ordered or that he ordered direct.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Since the '69 Novas are believed to be transplant cars, then what did he mean by "ordered direct"?

I'm not even gonna TOUCH that last statement... http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/wink.gif

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Rob;
I would also assume that it would be James Spencer. James was reportedly from Chicago where his father owned a Packard dealership. Also, he was involved with the Span Inc. deal. James was the salesperson who wrecked a Cortez Silver Demo Deuce by nailing a bridge abuttment, flipping the thing over totalling it. It is still titled to Yenko Leasing. The word was that he had a stroke while driving, but other reports suggest a dui!

I'm not touching the last statement either!
M

[NWYENKO]

Darn it!! I already started pulling off the stripes to see if it would make a difference.
Do you think superglue will work to reinstall?? Jim

[Stefano]

I don't know about Super Glue, but I do dab a bit of clear on each of the stripes edges to keep them in place.

[copo9566aa]

Very nice car Pete.

Sixties muscle. I was not taking a stab at the Douglas cars. Fact is though, they will never be able to be documented. In fact, I bet more pop up that were not real to begin with. My opinion is that if they are not on the inventory list they are not "yenkos". Period. They do have a unique history nonetheless. But I would venture to guess that if a person had 80k to spend on a yenko camaro, the douglas name attached to it would not be enough. Rarer maybe, but more valuable, no.

[Belair62]

HMMMM....what do we call a Yenko Chevelle from VV Cook Chevrolet

[sixtiesmuscle]

Well "Yenko", if it wasn't a "stab", what was it? I'm glad it's only your opinion. Fortunately, we all have one. You know the rest of that story. Now, I suggest that somebody with $80,000 won't be buying a fresh, done right Yenko Camaro of ANY kind. In fact, anyone having one they will sell at that price, please email me ASAP! If one of the 198 Canonsburg cars is worth up to 100,000 in today's market, why wouldn't a comparable Douglas COPO, SOLD new as a Yenko Camaro, by the authorized Yenko Dealership for all of Chicagoland, be worth at least 80? Fresh, properly done COPOs are in the 75 range right now. The Douglas connection has to be worth something. It's up to the market to decide what.
I still maintain that if they were sold as Yenkos to the original owner, any subsequent owners are justified in presenting them as authentic Yenkos without people referring to them as "clones" or "fakes". Oh yeah, that's IMHO!

[Belair62]

It wasn't an opinion it was a question.

[Stefano]

Please correct me if I am wrong. My best count says we have 6 1969 Douglass COPO Camaros and one 1969 COPO Chevelle accounted
for.
We know that two of the original paint Camaros had Yenko Stripes and the Chevelle still has original paint and stripes.
We have the best source of Documentation available, Jack Douglass himself.
Now we have "estate documents" which verify the number and his authorization to sell these Douglass COPOs as Yenkos.
Many of these COPOs stand on their own merits. They are low milage, unmolested and matching numbers COPOs. These COPOs will withstand anyones scrutiny.
I certainly would not state that these cars
are undocumented. Far from it ,in my opinion.
Douglass Yenko COPOs have not been fully tested in todays market. While some have known the info.,most of us are still learning.
The Douglass COPOs are some of the most highly optioned COPOs ever sold to the public.
This will be a strong factor influencing future prices and collectability.
When the COPOs themselves and the person who ordered and sold them are not satisfactory documentaion , then no car is documentable. Only its VIN number!
I would rather own a documentable COPO than a documentable VIN number. But, thats just me.

Pete, first off, I hope YOU don't take offense to my first post. I was merely poking fun since your nova is the only unstriped COPO nova on the planet, and the debate about the Douglas cars had just taken place. Pete's car has got to be one of the most sought after supercars.

[Stefano]

BTW Pete, awsome COPO. I am certain that you must have educated at least a few experts with your COPO!

[Casey Marks]

Just 'cause Pete and I are friends .....

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="">quote:</font><HR>Pete's car has got to be one of the most sought after supercars. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Might be slower than a W-31 ..... but ........ http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/laugh.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/laugh.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/laugh.gif They were both delivered to Canada at least !!!

[Casey Marks]

And before ANY of you guys bust my ballz for messin' with Pete ..... you must know that I have MORE than the utmost respect for his COPO Nova. There is not ONE car out there that is as BAD ASS as a 360 horse LT-1 car .... and I'll be the first to admit it !!!!

Plus - Pete is gonna bring me one of those cool posters for a Christmas gift !!

[NWYENKO]

If you pull the stripes off a Deuce and put steel wheels with dogdish hubcaps do you have a "clone" of Pete's car?? Just trying to lighten things up a bit!!

[RN]

Casey is so right and when the Olds and Mopar guys say that you know its true as I have the utmost respect for that LT-1 Nova as I know they were screamers right from the Dealer! I ran a 69 SS 350 Nova one night with my old 340 Dart and I new I was in for a race and that was no LT-1 as I new I could be proud if I could get around him and even impress my girlfriend! Nice car "Pete" along with all the other bad machines you have!! Ron

[Stefano]

I purchased a Yenko Deuce clone, not long ago. It had an M22 from a Corvette, a 4:10 or 4:11 posi rear from a 1697 Chevy Nova and a 350 built to LT1 specs.

Other than finding belts to stay on for the 7200 rpm speed shifts, the car was plain wicked. It launched, hooked better than most any "stock" car I have owned or driven.

While I never ran it at the track, I did line it up against my GT 500 KR.

The Shelby wasn't a match,it lost. The Nova did have headers and fair BF T/As plus much better gearing.

My car buddies and I all believed that mid 12 second 1/4 miles would be no problem.

It was one awsome package.

[Stefano]

Guys,Guys, Guys,,, the statement stands on its own. I am familiar with the CE engine Yenko Novas. If you recall some of my prior posts ,I purchased a CE short block that purportedly came out of a 1969 Yenko Nova.

There are people, to include current Chicago area Dealers which state they COPO ordered 427 Nova's from the factory.

(All these dealers were in Fred Gibb's Zone and knew him personally)

No, I have never seen one, but have chased many leads.

Remember, I wasn't there so I ask alot of questions and do even more listening.

[Casey Marks]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="">quote:</font><HR>Another important piece of Douglass trivia is that all Douglass COPOs, even the ones without stripes were/are faster/quicker than Yenko Deuces. The exception of course would be a COPO LT1, without stripes ,which is much lighter and has less wind drag and thus much faster/Quicker.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


How were they faster ? Was something else done to them that was different than a *Deuce*, besides stripes ?

[Stefano]

Casey,
My reply was,in jest.

[Chevy454]

Casey:

WHEN you and Pete finally hook it up (I say "when" because you have to eventually cross paths!) I WANT TO BE THERE! Anytime, Anyplace! That will be one for the ages! [Man, I can't beleive a couple of small blocks have me fired up!]

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Pete;
Didn't this COPO Nova run a 12.99 @108 (?) with the B.F.G - Drag Radials, still through the stock exhaust?
M

[Casey Marks]

Next question ???

Anyone remember / know what class the LT-1 Nova was in - - E-Stock ??

[COPO PETE]

Marlin....12.97 @ 106.24 on the drag radials, through dual stock, single crossover exhaust! This car has never been restored,so the body mounts are weak and springs are wore out. Once we restore this thing, I'm thinking 12.8 maybe a 12.7 on poly's, we'll see. Did the Yenko's come with a hurst shifter? I though I read on a post around here that they did and were supposidly installed at the factory????
Peter

[Chevy454]

Casey:

Hopefully Marlin will chime in with the answer...but, what class were the W-31s in? Also, what was the time that you laid down recently in yours?

[COPO PETE]

What class were the W31's in.....they did'nt have any!!!!!!!!! http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/laugh.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/laugh.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/laugh.gif
Peter

[JoeC]

Pete, Does your Nova have the Hurst Shifter? According to my research, Chevy was TIGHT with the Hurst Shifters but Yenko did get them to install them in the Deuce. No Novas or Chevelles got a Hurst from the factory (except Deuce) and Camaro only got them from 69 to 71. Chevy used the Muncie frame mount shifter or the ITM (Inland Tool & Manufacturing) shifter. The ITM looks a lot like a round handle Hurst shifter. As a matter of fact, the round handle Hurst looks more like an ITM shifter then the after market Comp Plus Hurst with the bolt on flat stock shift arm. Makes me wonder if ITM really made the round handle Hurst shifters and just put the Hurst name on them.

[Casey Marks]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="">quote:</font><HR>...but, what class were the W-31s in? Also, what was the time that you laid down recently in yours? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

W-31's were typically F/Stockers. It was a fine line between F/S and E/S .......

I got a 12.997 @ 104.81 with a 1.93 short time.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Casey;
The Yenko Deuce Novas were never officially classified to my knowledge. Although several of the Yenko Deuce brochures are footnoted with ' NHRA Classification applied for', several people who tried to race their Deuces were disqualified because the track was never made aware of the factory LT1/Nova combination. One owner repeatedly requested the verification from Don, never received any response, and promptly removed the YENKO decal from the quarterpanel. It this owner had known the the emblems were attached to the car with double sided tape, he said they would have been off too.

The only car that possibly got classified, (in '71?), was the Central Chev. Deuce that the late Doug Olsen uncovered at Charlie Gilchrist's. I have not been able to receive a photo of this car after countless attempts, to determine what class was on the window. BKH has one though, and might be able to see some letters on the window.

Another original owner who currently runs an F/SA '68 Camaro in New Jersey, felt that the Deuce would have been an E-Stock car. I don't know how he surmised that, but he would definitely know better than I!!
M

[Chevy454]

Well, here's what we've got.

First off, we have letters to and from Walt Mentzner of the NAAR (National Association Automobile Racing), concerning classifying the Deuce for their races. This was around April-May of 1971. In the NAAR, the Deuce was classified as "F/Stock".

We also have a page of hand written notes (looks like Don's writing) with specs relating to the Deuce's engine (just as carb #, valve diameters, head numbers, cam changes, etc.), along Chevrolet shipping weight (3,098) and how much "jobber net" on each car ($58.41). At the top of this page, it has (NHRA Superstock) written, then Walt Mentzner and his phone number written below that [Note: Mentzner was with the NAAR, as stated above]. Directly below that is written F Stock - Mustangs - 11.6. Then, the rest of the page contains notes about the car/engine.

Then, we have a copy of a letter to Wally Parks and the NHRA urging him to classify the Deuce (a copy was also sent to Vince Piggins). This was also around April of '71.

I even checked the NHRA website which has all the classifications for the cars (or at least I assume it's all of them) and the highest horsepower Nova they have listed is the 350/300hp model.

So far I haven't found anything FROM the NHRA back to Don confirming a classification for the Deuce. But, I'm still looking! http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/smile.gif

[Edited by Chevy454 (12-06-2001 at 10:10 AM).]

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Good stuff Rob, maybe I could get a copy?? I had heard through the vine that the Deuce was not actually submitted by Don to be classified until late '70 early '71, so the dates on your correspondence does not surprise me. I had checked the NHRA site before, and unfortunately found the same info on the Novas. The vintage photo of the Citrus deuce, aka 'Draggin Deuce', does not appear to have a class on the window.
M

[68l30]

Marlin,I recall thr photo but don't remember seeing a class on the window.If I remember correctly it was a pass/rear shot.I'll check my records and see what I find out.


Steve

[COPO PETE]

The original owner was a stickler for keeping records. The car originally came with a muncie shifter. Car was purshased Oct. 2 1970, and on Oct 13 1970, I have the bill from a speed shop where he purshased a Hurst shifter and installed it. That's interesting that this car came with the Muncie shifter and the Yenko's got the Hurst. I was thinking this had to do somthing with the order form and was also why the Yenko's came with M21 and the Canadian COPO's got the M20.
Marlin is correct, Central did originally order 10 of these cars but for some reason, Chev would only ship two. Original salesman confirms this, but does not know why!
Peter

[JoeC]

Pete, Does your Nova have the rear sway bar? I wonder if the Hurst has something to do with Yenko's 9737 COPO number.

[Casey Marks]

Interesting stuff guys !!!

The 3412 is kinda interesting for my car too. Mine weighed in at 3636 in Stanton, with my 165# lard-ass in the seat. That puts the car at right around 3471. Not bad ........ http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/smile.gif

[COPO PETE]

Joe: Yes the car came with and still has the rear sway bar.
Peter
Also the number on my GM micro film shows 9010 BE and 9737AA. Is there a different version of the 9737 as in 9737BA? or something like that???

[Edited by COPO PETE (12-06-2001 at 02:21 PM).]

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Pete;
I will check my copy of Yenko's order form to GM for the Yenko Deuces, he listed both COPO's on the form but I don't remember if he listed the suffix letters.
M

[68l30]

Marlin,all I have on that photo is car #134 and I believe a AHRA decal on the rear Qtr.Sorry no help on the class.


Steve

[Chevy454]

OK, I did some snooping around on the NHRA website (just for kicks) and here is what I found. [Note: the info below is for STOCK classifications]

For the Nova, the highest factory HP 350 they have listed is the 300hp, and the NHRA factored it at 290hp, and 11.09 pounds per horsepower. They did list the Z/28 Camaro, which had the identical engine as the COPO Novas, and it was rated at 355hp (360 factory hp) and 9.41/9.57 (4-speed and auto) pounds per horsepower. The Corvette incidently came with a 355hp factored from the NHRA (370hp from the factory) and an 8.89 pounds per horsepower factor. But, they also listed a 350 Corvette with a factory 350hp rating that carried an NHRA factored 370hp, and an 8.65 pounds per horsepower.

So, if you take the numbersfrom the 300hp/350 Nova, and multiply them you get 3213 pounds. Then, if you divide that number by the NHRA factored HP for the LT-1 (355) you get 9.05 pounds per horsepower.

I checked the Olds for Casey while I was there, and here is what it showed. The F-85 carried a 350/325hp rating from the factory, and also had the same 325hp rating from the NHRA, and 10.5 pounds per horsepower for a weight of 3412.5 pounds.

Now, I know NHRA has played with the factoring numbers numerous times over the years, so this is a very rough comparison. But, it's interesting to read!

[Rowdy Rat]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="">quote:</font><HR>The Corvette incidently came with a 355hp factored from the NHRA (370hp from the factory) and an 8.89 pounds per horsepower factor. But, they also listed a 350 Corvette with a factory 350hp rating that carried an NHRA factored 370hp, and an 8.65 pounds per horsepower.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There was a post on the CorvetteForum board recently where someone found an NHRA rulebook from 1972 and posted the factored horsepower for Corvette engines. The 1970 LT-1 Corvette engine (350/370) was factored to 400 horsepower (for the 1972 racing season at least).

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/zerothread?id=194037

The 355 horsepower figure seems awfully low for a 1970 LT-1... Misprint maybe?

Regards,

Stan Falenski

[Edited by Rowdy Rat (12-08-2001 at 09:39 AM).]

[Chevy454]

Stan:

This is the current NHRA rating of the LT-1. It lists the 355hp rating for the Corvette and the Camaro, in more than 1 place, so it doesn't look to be a misprint.

Now, as it turns out, I was over at the Super Stock (http://superstockforum.com/) site in the chat room, and was asking about what class the Nova might have been in. A couple of them mentioned that they new of a Camaro or 2, running the LT-1s, and they weren't too impressed with the combo. Said that it wasn't under the index, so they were curious about the Nova as well.

As best as I can tell, the NHRA ratings have fallen over the years. Remember, it was NHRA who rated the L-72 at 450hp for a while, but now it's down to 425hp. We've got several old NHRA rule books somewhere, so I will see if I can dig them out and see what's in them.

The NHRA (http://www.nhra.com) site has some really interesting stuff on it, and is worth the time to dig for the info.

[Note: when looking for info, make sure which specs you are getting. The NHRA posts both "Stock" and "SuperStock" ratings/factors, and they are VERY different!]


[Edited by Chevy454 (12-08-2001 at 10:08 AM).]

[Rowdy Rat]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="">quote:</font><HR>This is the current NHRA rating of the LT-1. It lists the 355hp rating for the Corvette and the Camaro, in more than 1 place, so it doesn't look to be a misprint.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe you... It's just very surprising. I've owned a 1970 L-46 Corvette as well as several 1970 LT-1 Corvettes and in truly stock form, the LT-1 definitely has the advantage (especially above 3500 rpm). The NHRA factored horsepower ratings certainly have changed over time... Heck, look at the L-88s rating from the 1972 source; it's less than the L-71/L-89. You can't even run an L-88 in stock eliminator anymore... It's super stock only now. Of course, NHRA's goal is to make the racing competitive... Not have the "fast" cars win all the time.

I'm really anxious to see how Pete does with his COPO 9010 Nova when he decides to get serious with it. Should be a real runner!

Regards,

Stan