Trans Am Racers

[Stefano]

We have a resident expert on site, I figured I'd could ask a few questions?

How many of us have wanted to build a Period Correct Trans Am Style Road Racer?

What are the Licencing requirements to put such a car on the track?

[JChlupsa]

Contact david and check out his site. I think he could answer most if not all your questions on what are the licencing requirements
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/vintage_transam.htm

[Stefano]

Thanks for the info. Jeff.

[MotownMadman]

Stefano, I am not sure what type of Trans Am car you would like to build, but there is now another expert on site, of sorts, I own a vintage Trans Am car, I purchased an estate belonging to a former Kar Kraft(Shelby) employee who was also part of the Shelby American/Terlingua race Team. I have every blueprint from Kar Kraft for every Trans Am Mustang built from 67 to 70, as well as tons of specs and information relating to the same and to the main competitor, Donahue/Penske Camaros. If you are seriously interested in getting into that sport contact me by PM and I will give you my Toll Free number. That is how I came across the document I have listed in Memorabilia for sale, the Ford letter of which I have many related items comparing the big three high performance programs. Anybody else looking for info on this subject or NOS Shelby Trans Am parts contact me.
Thanks. /ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif

[Jeff Murphy]

You might also contact Tim Boles, who is the boss of the UK Camaro Club and an accomplished vintage racer in his 68 Z28 Camaro, nicknamed "Butch". [email protected]

[Jeff Murphy]

Also drool over this: Historic Trans Am Car and Driver Roster (http://www.historictransam.com/Roster.htm)

http://www.historictransam.com/images/transam01.jpg

[sYc]

Stefano, Not too far from here is a national committee person for SCCA, Jeff Moore. He is in charge of licenses for both car and driver. We took Don's IMSA car to him to have it checked out, to see what we needed to do to actually race it. He is very involved in vintage racing, including Yenko Stingers. He has the Stinger convertible and sold Tim Allen his stinger.

[MotownMadman]

NICE PHOTO! I was lucky enough to have driven the 67 Shelby team Prototype car you see coming around the corner in the back of the photo, car #68, I had a chance to drive it a few months back at the vintage race on Coronado Island in San Diego. The owner, Jim Philion is a friend of mine, his car and my 68 Team Shelby car are going to be auctioned off together at Russo and Steele's auction in August in Monterey. Great photo!

[x44d80]

Stefano, David Pozzi's website is great, lot's of info and he'll email you back on any questions you have. He's a great guy. I have a 69 Camaro I am going to build into a T/A replica, it's a wrecked 6cyl so I wont feel too guilty about chopping it up. The problem is, to race in the Vintage races I believe the car has to have a racing heritage i.e. an old race car. I don't think they let just any car in. P.S. the Pozzi website has a old Car Life magazine article on the Penske Camaro that is great. It shows just how simple but what a fantastic racecar it was. Brent

[MotownMadman]

Brent, I dont believe that to be true about a car having to have a race history to run in the vintage races, in does have to have a race history in order to be in the Trans Am Registry, to race one that dosent have a race history it has to be built to meet period specifications and present safety standards. A good example is the car I mentioned in my last post on this subject, Shelby Team Car #68 was the prototype for the actual team competing cars in 1967 but it was never actually entered into a race that can be documented so far, the car belongs to a friend of mine, he races it on a regular basis, but it is not listed in the Trans Am Registry since there is no record of it officially being entered in a race. If you seriously want to build one contact me and I can provide more info on the rules and requirements. Thanks.

[Stefano]

I spoke to Jeff when I was searching for info on YS071 and discoverd that he is into road racing, thanks for the additional info.

As far as transam projects, I complete more projects in my mind then actually ever get done, but still would like to do it.

For now, I'll just settle for racing Ed Cuneen and Tim Allen around Laguna Secca with the Stinger. /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

[x44d80]

Motown, that's good news. My info came from a fairly old car mag about the car having to have a history to race. I want to build the car with my son who is all of five so I'm putting that third in line. I'll finish the other 2 cars first to pay for it. Pozzi has an article on "cheap big front disc brakes", I cant wait to try out. I have been gathering the pieces to try out on my current project.

[MotownMadman]

Brent, If I can be of any help let me know. Always happy to see another Father/Son project come together and always happy to see another Camaro tail panel looking through the windshield of my Shelby (LOL). /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

[JTH74]

Who owns the 69 Penske/Sunoco Z/28's? These cars have always been of high interest to me, I think that these cars were one the most important camaros in 1969, and that is not to say that any of the other Supercars of that year were not, just that these cars and drivers accomplished a lot!

[Jeff Murphy]

Check the link in my earlier post with the picture.

[Jim Mattison]

There are several race series that have a Historic Trans Am class......SVRA, VSCDA and HSR. If you have never been to one of these events, you should! They could be habit forming!!!

I have one of the 1969 "Canadian" Firebirds (a Z-28 Camaro, with Trans Am sheet metal) that we have raced in the VSCDA series for the last couple of years. The engine is a dry-sump 302 Chevy (actually 304.2) that will rev to 8800 rpm with ease. It is essentially a 302 version of a Winston Cup engine.

I am the Roger Penske of the operation.............the car owner $$$$ ! My oldest son "JB" drives for us and does a great job for the team. The current issue (Feb, 2003) of High Performance Pontiac Magazine has a nice article on the car and our team.

For 2003, we will compete in the HSR race series. The first race of the year will be at Road Atlanta. Hopefully, I'll see some of you there!

Jim Mattison

[Zedder]

Hey Jim,Your car wasn't owned or driven by Craig Fisher at one time was it? He told me that they did a number of Camaro/Firebird cars in '68 and '69.

[redvetracr]

I am sorry to disagree BUT you absolutely have to have pre`73 race history to race with the SVRA at Mid-Ohio, Watkins Glen and VIR in group 6. The SVRA Road America event is "open" as are the other two R/A vintage events although the fastest vintage group 6 cars in the country usually ALL show up at R/A in July for the BRIC. I also believe (for some strange reason) all cars with "Shelby`s" name on them are considered "race cars" and don`t need race history to compete in SVRA. You also are not going to compete in any historic Trans-Am reunion events on the west coast as they require SCCA Trans-Am history NOT just SCCA regional/national pre`73 history. The "price of admission keeps out the riff-raff". ...redvetracr

[MotownMadman]

I am certainly not going to argue with someone who knows what they are talking about, and it sounds like you do. I am new enough to this sport that I am learning as I go along. Maybe the "Loophole" you are referring to as far as "Shelby" is what has been confusing me, I was basing my conclusion on the 67 Shelby Group II #68, which was the prototype with no race history, and if what you say is true about Shelby cars being raced with no history while others cant doesnt seem quite fair. I have a mountain of vintage trans am paperwork I aquired, from what I have seen so far I should be able to help out some guys if it is questionable as to if their car had race history or not. I have nothing to worry about with my car as it was raced the first 10 races of 68 by Horst Kwech, Parnelli Jones, David Pearson, and Dan Gurney. My car will be on the auction block next August by Russo and Steele in Monterey, same weekend as the Vintage race and Fords 100th anniversary in racing.

[Jeff H]

I was under the impression that a car had to have the SCCA (certification or plate) on the rollbar showing that the vehicle was actually raced back in the day. I guess that helps keep out the riff-raff, but there could be a lot of cars that were built back then that never officially entered an event that could still be in hiding. /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

[MotownMadman]

Jeff, There are a LOT of cars that are missing from the TA history, when these cars were registered for an event they were registered with there VIN number so it is possible to go back in the records and track down a specific car. Many didnt have titles, but all had a manufactuer VIN and some like Shelbys also had a # from Kar Kraft stamped in the roll bar as well as other locations. I will get with your friend and see if I can track down his VIN having been entered in any races, which will also provide vital information as to owner, team, etc. /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

[redvetracr]

The "plate" you refer to was a brass tag riveted on (Trans-Am cars) and easily switched (yes there are scam artists in vintage racing) Race results, dated pictures, SCCA log books are all items of verification. Things get tricky with log books as they were just starting to be used 71-72 and the SVRA wants pre`73 history but anything raced in any type of SCCA (wheel to wheel) competition should have a log book AND the corresponding number stamped in the roll bar (main hoop) ..redvetracr

[TimG]

Redvetracr, apparently Dave Rex and Dave MacClymont had submitted race history of my car to SCCA years ago. Do you know of any way to access the records of SCCA? Road America has researched their records from the years my car competed and won at that track and they are forwarding this information to me.
To all, if you want to have the most fun you can have without doing something illegal, head to Road America for the vintage races in July.

[Jeff H]

Redvetracr, I've heard about some of the "TA cars" for sale that turn out to be the SCCA tag and original VIN from a wrecked car. So guys can build a car with those pieces and go racing. It's a shame this kind of stuff happens, but it always seems to be about the money. On the other side, it's a shame to see a vintage car that is wrecked not be replaced somehow in the race circuit.

[redvetracr]

JeffH,
Being a "Camaro guy" maybe you remember a Camaro driven (in Trans-Am) by Carl Shaeffer (late 60`s/early 70`s out of Shaeffer farms in southern Illinois)it was a`69 later raced (for many years)in SCCA by Beloit WI radio personality Jerry Dunbar and sponsored by Super America gas stations?? One year at the SCCA runoffs (Road Atlanta) the back side of the track was dry but on the front half it was raining well a bunch of cars got wrecked coming down the hill leading onto the front straight, one being the Dunbar Camaro, the car was totaled!! it was bent so bad it sat on three wheels and the roof looked like a tent in the middle, well Dunbar sells it to a guy who strips it and TAKES IT TO THE JUNK YARD!! Title and all!! BUT he sells different parts to two or three guys, the tag went one way and the roll bar went another and the front frame another, one guy even offered this guy $50 for the Super America poster of Dunbar that was hanging in the guy`s son`s room!! I have heard there are two or three guys restoring the ex Shaeffer farms/ Jerry Dunbar Camaro. And Dunbar has told me he had lost the SCCA log book. So yes cars are "recreated" and I know all this because I got the Revolution/Compomotive modular wheels off the car. ...redvetracr

[TimG]

The Shelby Registry has many stories of Cobras being junked and then being rebuilt as two different cars. It is great reading.

[Chevy454]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>
The Shelby Registry has many stories of Cobras being junked and then being rebuilt as two different cars. It is great reading.

<hr></blockquote>

Boy, that statement brings back memories...nightmares, actually. We sold a '66 Shelby Mustang not too long ago that was involved in a similar fiasco. The Shebly club has dropped the ball more than once. Don't even get dad started!

[68l30]

Here are some shots of the "Tag" from the 67/68 "Lightweight car".......

Steve

[68l30]

Another......sorry before digital /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

Steve

[68l30]

One more pit shot with the Dana Camaro and Winkel Camaro (I think).

Steve

[FIAracer]

Hello- I'm new to this site. Thanks go out to Motownmadman for telling me about it and I plan to join in on the T/A Racers topic soon.
Steve-

[Jeff H]

How's it going Steve. Just don't tell these guys you like Mustangs! /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

[FIAracer]

Jeff H- Hmm. Would it help if I mentioned I've owned a 67 RS Conv, 68 Camaro, 67 L79 Malibu, 72 Chevelle wagon race car tow vehicle with a big block/TH400 and plans for another Camaro in the near future?
Steve-

[MotownMadman]

Nice stab Jeff, cant say I wouldnt have done the same myself. All BS aside though, I have been a Chevy performance fanatic all my life and have owned and still do own some nice examples. You cant tell me that if came across a Shelby Team TA Mustang you wouldnt at least give it some respect? /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif Besides, from the financial standpoint I will be able to buy a few top dollar Chevys from the proceeds of this old Ford /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif By the way Vern, I do have the car and the prints, oh how news travels! Steve, welcome to the site, I notice you did not go in to any detail about that super rare Camaro, I guess all in good time, eh?

[Jeff H]

I'd be the first one to jump on a nice Shelby or Boss 302 Mustang(if I had any money). Those fastbacks make some sweet looking race cars. Without the competition, the Camaro might have been downright boring. Ford had just as many trick parts as GM so it made for some great racing.

[MotownMadman]

By the way, any of you guys want a set of Mini-Lite wheels you may want to contact our new member Steve, aka FIAracer, it seems he is the National Distributor? for Mini Lites, something like that, sorry steve if I got the title wrong. /ubbthreads/images/icons/confused.gif

[Stefano]

Hmm,
I was contemplating a set for the Stinger??

[TimG]

Jim Cowles put an early set of mini-lites on my 66 Shelby when he restored it, when did these begin production? I believe mine are from around 1970.

[FIAracer]

Minilite wheels started production in 1962. Magnesium only at first and cast aluminum in about 1974 with their Sport wheel. Now we offer the look of the vintage magnesium wheel but in aluminum. Our 15"x 8" Trans-Am wheel being the most recent addition.

[MotownMadman]

Steve, I need a set for the Shelby 350 Notchback TA Mustang, I have a set of Magnesium, which are fine for showing the car, but with the age and who knows what type of stress they have had I would not feel comfortable out on the track with the originals considering the value of my car and everyone else's car around me. Do you have them in stock? I need to get with you about this soon as the season is just around the corner. I will give you a call sometime next week, I am also working on the other project, I think I may have a lead.
Thanks,
Matt /ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif

[FIAracer]

The 15"x 8" Trans-Am wheel is the only Minilite I tend to keep in stock. I usually have at least one set in 4.75" bolt pattern and 4.50" backspace for Camaros. Matt, as far as your T/A car, all I have here at the moment is a set in the optional Anthracite color, opt'l machined rim edge, steel inserts and 4.25" backspace. Lead times are about 3 weeks.

[MotownMadman]

Steve, I will give you a call next week about the wheels, by the way guys, I did get the title wrong, it is not National Disrtibutor of Mini Lites, it is North American Distributor, so Steve can help you guys in Canada also with your Mini Lite wheel needs.Thanks. /ubbthreads/images/icons/blush.gif

[x44d80]

If anyone is interested,over at the Team Camaro site, www.camaros.net (http://www.camaros.net) under Cars for Sale there is a 69 Z/28 with log book that has been racing since 73. price is $7,500

[redvetracr]

The main reason that car is (probably) only $7500 and NOT $75000 (without actually seeing it) is the lack of history, the SVRA (group 6) and the Historic T/A organization (they ONLY want cars that actually raced in early T/A races) do NOT recognize cars raced after`72 and whether it was built in 73 or raced in 73, "1973" might as well be yesterday.
...redvetracr
PS: Depending where someone lives or where they are going to race THIS car might be a GOOD DEAL!!

[FIAracer]

Trans-Am Racers: I missed out on the earlier chat about cars with race history vs no race history. Yes, the Historic Trans Am group are strict about previous race history and in the old days of SVRA there was no way you could enter a car in Grp 6 without proven pre-1973 road race history for any of their events. However exceptions have been made. For example, Kar Kraft (Fords R&amp;D race fabrication facility) built a few Sportsroof Mustangs for the 69 Trans Am season. One of these prototype Boss 302's was a black/gold car and was delivered to Smokey Yunick for continued race prep. The "intent" was to run it in the 1969 Trans Am race season, but before Smokey finished the car, Ford Motor Company decided instead to enter it in NASCAR's Baby Grand series. This car never raced in Trans Am or any road race, however being a Kar Kraft car and a siginificant piece of race history, it has been a regular entrant at the current Historic Trans Am Reunions on the west coast and recently here in CT at Lime Rock Park. I helped source misc parts for it's restoration and I have to say, the stuff that KK and Yunick did to this car is amazing. Yes, I know this is a Camaro site, I'll offset this Ford post with some Trans Am Camaro subject matter at some point. Honest.

[redvetracr]

FIAracer,
The "old days" as you call them of SVRA are still here, that car you mention "raced" and thats all that counts, I also believe the Baby Grand series raced the infield at daytona. Try entering an SVRA race (other than an "open event") without a medallion eligible car and see what happens.
...redvetracr

[FIAracer]

As promised, a Camaro subject from me. Another example of exceptions made for significant cars but without T/A race history. An un-built, unfinished and not needed backup Camaro sat in the Penske race shop in 1968. The car was shipped to Germany where it raced in Group II for a couple years then went to England where it also was very successful collecting 17 plus wins. Now back in the USA it has a Historic Trans Am medallion (#006). Exceptions are made and many ex-Trans am and A/sedan cars went to the UK and Europe. Some came back, some are still there.

[MotownMadman]

GO STEVE! /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

[FIAracer]

redvetracr: The KK Boss I mentioned earlier raced one Grand Am race (Talladega) and not an infield road race course event. All the other races were non-Grand Am short tracks, no road race circuits. Being a long time member of SVRA, it's not the same club as it was in the 1980's when random pumping of engines would happen at any time, etc. It's still a great club, but not the same. Rather than get into it here, I welcome a continuation of this topic off the bulletin board by private email or phone rather than go back and forth for all to read. For the rest of the readers here. Several of the SCCA regions offer vintage programs, no history required. Cars must be year of manufacture spec with modern safety equipment. Northern NJ region has a good program and also Florida. Also I think Oregon has a vintage program. Several other events are out there for those w/o previous race history. Riff Raff welcome, wine and Brie cheese optional.
FIAracer. Historic Trans Am Services LLC

[MotownMadman]

Brent, Well it appears from the lastest few posts to this thread that I may have been correct earlier in what I had told you about requirements for vintage TA racing. It seems FIAracer is fairly knowlegable on this subject. Thanks. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[FIAracer]

History vs no history: Here's one more. Another 69 Kar Kraft built Mustang. This one is their development "mule". Raced a short time here in the USA in SCCA A/sedan, no T/A. Ships to England in late 1969 and has a very successful career in Group II against the vinyl topped ex-Penske Camaro I mentioned earlier. Comes back to the USA and is restored. Issued a Historic Trans Am "medallion" (#016) and just went through the RM auction in Novi Michigan. Didn't meet reserve. A significant FoMoCo history car due to it's KK connection. It's welcome in SVRA due to it's proven pre-1973 road race history. Is it eligible for Historic Trans Am? Do they honor the T/A medallion? These are the $135,000 questions.
FIAracer

[redvetracr]

I think there is a slight bit of confusion here. First I am totally sympethetic to ANYONE whose car was not raced before 1973 (I got lucky), also there were cars with NO history "grandfathered" into the SVRA when they needed cars to fill the fields. And having the SVRA group 6 medallion does not get you into a Historic T/A event, you must have a car that actually raced in an early T/A event and most importantly you can and will have FUN in vintage racing with a no history car. ...redvetracr

[1967Z28]

I got lucky and also was able to get a "pre-72" car so am able to run with what are called the Historic Trans-Am cars. HMSA is the group that runs at the Monterey Historics and you would definitely need a car with Trans-Am history to run at that event. Some exceptions have been made, such as for some Shelby team test cars. Several years back there were also some exceptions made just to help fill the grids but enough cars have been found now that some of these guys who were able to race at Monterey in the past are no longer able to do so. CSRG is a West Coast group that has a little more lax regulations which allow you to run a car without "pre-72" history. The brass tags on the roll bars were not started until '71 or '72 so if a car stopped racing prior to that time frame, it would not have a brass tag on the roll bar. My car stopped racing before that time. I was fortunate enough to trace it back to the original owner and he still had the dealer invoice for the car with the VIN on it. That plus several other things helped to get it registered with the Historic T/A group. There are more of these cars out there. A lot of it is dumb luck when you find a car but you also need to educate yourself so you know what you are looking for.

-Jon

1967 Z28 street car
1967 Z28 Trans-Am race car
1967 Z28 Registry

[x44d80]

Thanks Motown. Actually, I probably would be outa my league to want to run with the big boys and would rather do the hometown scene. I'm sure they would rather have me here too. Their cars are worth way to much to be hurt by a homemade car. 20 years ago in Utah the SCCA was alive and well, I think mostly MG and Triumph guys running cones in parking lots. They even advertised in the paper. I couldn't tell you if they are here today. Hope so. Thanks again. Brent

[redvetracr]

x44d80,
Unless your initials are RW or VE there will ALWAYS be "something" on the track more valuable than whatever you (or I for that matter) bring!! Now lets see how smart we all are!! Whose initials are they?? need a hint?? the first one does not (at least not yet) drive a "pony car" and the second guy does!! ...redvetracr

[JoeC]

Vic E has the old Smokey Yunick Camaro which I believe was raced by Don Yenko in 6 TransAm races in 1969. This car is pictured in the Feb. 2002 MCR magazine in the story about Don Y. It is difficult to find info on the cars that didn't run at the front of the pack. I believe Don's best finish was 7th in a TA race but he did win the Citrus 250 at Daytona in that car and there were a lot of big guns in that race.