1970 RAIV Judge Ragtops

[yellowjudge]

<font color="red"> </font> I was wondering if anyone had any info on any new finds out there of 1970 RAIV judge converts? There were 12 4spds &amp; 6 autos produced. There is a registry, by color: 1)green 2) two red( 1 is mine) 3) orange 4)black 5)white 6)blue two of them 7) silver The break down is 4 sticks, &amp; 6 autos known

[CWilliams]

Milton Robson has the black one /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif Was there more than one in black?

[yellowjudge]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif Hi, Yes Milt does have a black RAIV, it is a 69. He has a red 70. Great collection he has of all types of cars! Do you have any pontiacs? <font color="red"> </font>

[442w30]

It's been my understanding that the real number of RAIV ragtops were not known. 18 and 20 have been the number that has been thrown around, which is quite believable to me.

I know of Milt's red one - I don't think he owns it anymore. I think there was a white and blue one in FL. A guy in NV had a black one, but I don't know if it was real - I saw it at the Nats in Denver. Owner claimed it was real.

I did not know Robson had a '69, which has got to be the ultimate. I know Ames has one, and he probably has a '70 as well. And then there's Gary Cave in MD who probably has at least one.

[yellowjudge]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif <font color="red"> </font> HI, yes 18 seems to be correct. The 70 Hemi rag # @ about 20 or so, &amp; they do 400-800k!!, so I feel the Judge converts. w/RAIV are a real value now. I broke down in previous post the # of doc. cars so far /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gifby color &amp; tranny. I hear about others, but till PHS is shown, they can't be verified. I'm pretty lucky to have one! I think milt still has his as well as Gary &amp; steve. They are both good guys &amp; very good asset to the GTO hobby.

[CWilliams]

Milt's black '70 vert. is being built back up right now. It's in the shop just miles from me!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[CWilliams]

Correction- Milton's rag top thats car being restored is a '69. My bad.

[70judge]

I know of a guy who has one in sauk city wi.It is a black RA 4 70 judge.

[yellowjudge]

HI, it is a convt? RAIV. Has anyone out there ever seen a special order ( - -) paint code Judge? I have a 70 Daytona yellow RAIV, orig paint car. thanks /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[442w30]

Isn't it technically a Goldenrod Yellow Judge?

[DaJudge]

yes, GTO_Don had a special order paint 69 Judge that was sold out of Pontiac's retail store in Michigan. It was also Goldenrod Yellow. It as listed as such on the PHS and Build sheet. Michael Green has a special order paint 71 Judge convert that is probably almost done being restored. I think it is close to a Camaro color Rally Green? It has a white top and Ivory interior and was ordered for a Florida dealer to pay special tribute to the Florida Gators if I remember the story correctly.

[yellowjudge]

HI, I would assume it is a non pontiac color, that's why the 2 dashes on trim plate. Goldenrod yellow a non judge color, but still a pontiac one. The car is really a one of a kind, paint really nice for being 33 yrs old. It is a Freemont Ca.built car. My thought it is prob. only RAIV built this way. It is really a loaded car also.
What GTO's do you have? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif <font color="yellow"> </font>

[SamLBInj]

[ QUOTE ]
HI, I would assume it is a non pontiac color, that's why the 2 dashes on trim plate. Goldenrod yellow a non judge color, but still a pontiac one. The car is really a one of a kind, paint really nice for being 33 yrs old. It is a Freemont Ca.built car. My thought it is prob. only RAIV built this way. It is really a loaded car also.
What GTO's do you have? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif <font color="yellow"> </font>

[/ QUOTE ]
Sounds really sharp..any photos?
Sam /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

[yellowjudge]

<font color="yellow"> </font> /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif I know Mike Greene quite well. I know of his green 71 convt. When you say Don, I assume you mean Don White. Don great guy, just talked w/him the other nite.
Did you buy his black RAIV 70?

[yellowjudge]

HI Give me your email, I'll send them. Do you have a 69 Z-28? My friend has a ZL 1, copo, &amp; yenko.
I'm also into the 69 Tas. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[442w30]

Just because there are two dashes does not mean it's not a non-Pontiac color. For example, if my car came in Rallye Red (which is the same as Carousel Red, I believe), it came with two dashes, even though it is designated as an optional color. I am not sure why that is. I feel the two dashes for your car is not determinant on whether it was a Pontiac color or not because Goldenrod Yellow is obviously a Pontiac color.

The two dashes has confused me and I am not sure if there is a rule of thumb to it. As I know it's been used for RPO and non-RPO colors (for a respective model) as stated above, it seems like there is no rule of thumb.

[GTO_DON]

carousel red is the same as hugger orange [code 72] on late 68's and all of 69. goldenrod yellow is a f-body only color and thats why the 2 dashes are on the trim tag. it was also used on chevelles in 69 [ss396 color only] as special order. on build sheets it list as rpo [special paint solid] /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

[yellowjudge]

HI I agreewith D /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gifon, my thoughts were Golenrod Yellow was a bird color. I compared my spec. order yelloe to Daytona paint chip, looks same. I would assume this is prob. only RAIV out there in this color? I thought 2 dashes meant non pont. color? <font color="yellow"> </font>

[442w30]

You've basically said the same thing I was, but more eloquently. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

All I was saying is two dashes does not necessarily mean special order, per what Olds did with Rallye Red (and I believe Sebring Yellow too).

What were Carousel Red GTOs designated as? They still had the 72 or they had dashes?

[yellowjudge]

HI, I could be wrong, but I'm sure Goldenrod yellow a bird only color. I took paint chip it seems to match the Daytona Yellow. My cousin has a 70 Lt-1 vette, looks the same.
I think tech. speaking there is no way to tell true color w/dashes. But my car is orig paint, &amp; I lifted the carpet etc to check, also someone wrote in grease pecil in door jam that it was spec. color &amp; date car made.
I'm really happy w/car I feel it is a real unique car, esp. w/raiv/color &amp; all the options.
It was a Freemont car, is'nt that near San Fran.? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[yellowjudge]

Hi, the carousel red was a standard color, used 69. I've seen it on: 68/9 gtos &amp; birds, would assume special early order. In 69 standard on judge, extra cost on bird. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif <font color="yellow"> </font>

[442w30]

I never said it was not a Bird-only color. All I am saying is that dashes don't specify non-Pontiac color. Their meaning is more encompassing, having to do with 1) colors in the palette that was not offered on a respective car, like yellow on the GTO, 2) a color not available as an RPO, and 3) I know evidence that sometimes they used it for some RPO colors, but I don't know why.

Also, there are a whole bunch of Carousel Red GTOs out there. They were not Judges but standard GTOs.

[yellowjudge]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif This is getting kind of confusing, here I thought I had a special car? with a special paint color? I know I've never seen another, espec. a raiv. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif Yes, there were some GTO &amp; birds both 68/9 in carousel red. Also in 76 they made TAs in that color again.

[JoeC]

I think it has something to do with the new car order process or paperwork. The SS Chevelle in Monaco Orange or Daytona Yellow got the 72 or 76 code but a non SS Chevelle in same colors got the dash.

[442w30]

Exactly!

[sixtiesmuscle]

Don't let anybody kid you. You have a VERY special car, regardless of color.

[Astock]

Faded Golden Rod Yellow on '69 Fbird.It was listed on the bottom portion of the window sticker as special paint,or special order.

[442w30]

Goldenrod Yellow was an RPO for the Firebird in 1969. It is not a special-order color. Maybe optional, but not special.

[yellowjudge]

HI, thank you, think it is quite special. The "special" paint(Daytona/Goldenrod/Saturn/Sebring) or whatever anyone wants to call it, makes it a unique car. The RAIV, &amp; orig. cond. w/all options is nice too. Thanks again!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[yellowjudge]

HI, goldenrod yellow was on paint list for bird, avail. @ extra cost. It would have a paint code on dataplate. I'm just tring to fig. out what your thought is on mine. My data plate has 2 dashes, you say it is not special order? When I got my PHS, it does have an * for paint color.
Do you have any pontiacs&gt;? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

I've had one with a dash on the plate for color, regular 69 GTO with Carousel Red, I was told it was special order and I best I can remember it had Special Paint on the invoice.

[442w30]

Just like steved said, if it was not RPO for a particular model, it received dashes.

Of course, that's excepting the Olds example I used.

[yellowjudge]

Hi, I would assume that the extra cost was because it was a Judge color, but still a pontiac color.I've seen 69 GTO &amp; Birds in carousel red. I'll have to ask the guy if it had dashes. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[Jeff H]

On the Chevy's the -- paint codes usually means "non-standard" paint. It could be a non RPO color from a Pontiac, or Corvette, or it could mean stripe delete. I don't think you would call it special paint, just non-standard paint.

[GTO_DON]

MY FRIEND COLIN FROM CLASSIC AUTO JUST LISTED A 70 L78 CHEVELLE IN HUGGER ORANGE OR MONACO ORANGE [ WHICHEVER YOU LIKE] ON HIS WEBSITE!! PAINT CODE -- COOL CAR! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[yellowjudge]

HI Jeff, I'm not real informed on chevy. I know a guy w/69 Camaro SS B.Block, it is painted black, &amp; has 2 dashes. I was told it has the 2 dashes, as it was an early 69, &amp; black was not offered then.
I assume my 70 RAIV Judge has 2 dashes as it was painted a non Judge or even A body color. Whatever the case I believe it is a unique car. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif <font color="yellow"> </font> /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[Mr70]

judgeragtop
Are you sure about that year?
Black was offered in 1969.
On 1970 Camaros,which were Feb.70 built,they were not available in code 19 black.

[Jeff H]

That's what makes the -- paint code so difficult to figure out. It could be a standard color like black, but maybe it had the stripes deleted. Or it could be an odd color like the Carolina Blue. Without good documentation, the only way to know for sure is to strip down the old paint to find the earliest color hoping the car was never stripped and repainted. Looking for the paint in door jambs or hidden under the hinges might be the only way to find the original color.

[yellowjudge]

HI, I'm not real good w/Camaros. But this is what I know, the 69 is a B.B. SS, it has 2 dashes on trim, maybe since it has no stripes? It has 2 dashes? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[yellowjudge]

Hi Jeff, it is an orig. paint car w/low miles, the stripe delete may be it. I was told black was not offered 68 &amp; early 69? but I know the pontiacs, not good w/chevy. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

Do you have a pic of this car you can post?

[442w30]

I seriously doubt a stripe delete would entail dashes in the paint code.

Personally, my head hurts. While I have not been a poster boy for eloquence and clarity, I am unsure what is so difficult to understand. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

On a related note, check out this auction: 1970 GTO (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&amp;item=2448773549&amp;category=72 44&amp;rd=1) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[GTO_DON]

IF YOU WOULD HAVE LOOKED AT THE PHS REAL CLOSELY ON THAT YELLOW GOAT ON EBAY,YOU WOULD NOTICE THE Y2 IN THE COLOR BOX [ TOP LEFT CORNER] THAT COLOR IS SIERRA YELLOW,WHICH IS A PALE YELLOW COMMONLY USED IN 70. GOLDENROD YELLOW HAS A W CODE [51] FIREBIRD ONLY COLOR! I CAN SCAN THAT INFO IF ANYBODY CARES. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

[copo9566aa]

This is a long long and popular story - - /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

GoldenRod (http://www.yenko.net/attachments/19318-ManyYellow.jpg) Yellow



SpecialPiant1 (http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=UBB10&amp;Number=29783&amp;page=&amp;v iew=&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=1&amp;vc=1)

SpecialPaint2 (http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=UBB10&amp;Number=19273&amp;page=&amp;v iew=&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=1&amp;vc=1) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[442w30]

My eyesight is not good enough to see the color code. Thanks for clearing it up. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

[Jeff H]

If you look at the known Chevrolet information, the -- is known as a stripe delete paint code. But the -- is also a non-standard color which might be from another division of GM or even a custom color like the Carolina Blue. The -- paint code is not an obvious designation for "special paint". Please go to www.camaros.org (http://www.camaros.org) and read up on it and you will understand what I'm referring to. Maybe on a Judge it meant a non-standard color as well. Nothing is obvious about it so why make a statement like that.

[442w30]

Jeff, while it is much appreciated and very interesting to hear that a stripe delete Camaro would have its paint code deleted from the data plate, I hope you understand I am not the first person to get something wrong, obvious or otherwise. Like Judgeragtop, I am here to learn.

[yellowjudge]

HI, The camaro does not belong to me saw it @ some local shows. I did see the 2 dashes on plate. I'll try to get some pics after we get back into show weather. we now have 12 inches of snow on ground. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

I'm not trying to pound it in the ground, I just like to see what were talking about. I never did get over that picture thing as a kid.

One picture is better than a thousand words, or something like that.

[yellowjudge]

HI, I agree, I was lucky my car was never painted. Where ever I look- under carpet in tunk hinges etc is the yellow.I know w/the - - could could really paint it any color &amp; be "ok", unless you know for sure the orig. color. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[yellowjudge]

Hi, you seem to be quite aware of this paint saga. Would you agree my car has the - - because of the Daytona Yellow(non Judge paint) My build sheet shows an * for paint color.I thought it was interesting, the door jam had a written message of this"special" paint. I can't believe how much interest the Judges have got lately. I really look forward to some day getting my (1 of 12)70 RAIV/4spd judge convt done. It is #75 Cardinal Red &amp; has white top. I guess that is same as chev <font color="yellow"> </font> /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gify.

[yellowjudge]

Don is correct. The sierra yellow looks like a tan. The Gto on ebay is not originally the yellow it wears now. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[442w30]

I think Sierra Yellow is the same as Gobi Beige. Don?

[GTO_DON]

yes i believe that is what chevrolet called it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[442w30]

Oops . . . I meant Mr. Copo above, as he posted the color chips, but it's all good! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[yellowjudge]

I was wondering if any new 70 RAIV Judge converts have come to surface? It seems as 4 sticks &amp; 6 autos accounted for. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif <font color="red"> </font>

[yellowjudge]

Just checking to see if any more of the 12 1970 RAIV Judge converts have come to the surface? Counting mine there have only been 4 documented. thanks http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[yellowjudge]

Did anyone see the 70 black RAIII Judge convt. do 180k!!!!@ Mecham auction. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif WOW!!!

[Belair62]

Yep...sure did...Colin brushed his teeth with ultra white to smilr after that auction... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[yellowjudge]

I'm sure he could buy a toothpaste factory. It was an OK car, orig. had sandalwood top &amp; inter. I'm sure he had nice paint on it! Wonder what a raiv would now do? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[Belair62]

It was a nice car....yesterday was a perfect day to own it around here too !

[Mr70]

Today is Even better.... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[yellowjudge]

Hey, even in "PITTS"burgh the sun is shinning! Wish my my raiv Judge convert. could shine too! Well, maybe when I hit lottery, I can restore it to the level it deserves!!!!!
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[supergonzo]

There is a 1970 RAIV convert for sale recently.

There were only 5 RAIV 1969 Judge convertibles.
I have one of them.
I am bringing it to the www.musclecarrace.com (http://www.musclecarrace.com) July 24th Englishtown.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Nice, should be a fun time!
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

[Chevy454]

Hey Gonzo: have you had the RAIV down the track yet? Care to share some ET/MPH info?? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

[csx289]

Eric,
I am glad you can call the car I sold an "OK" car, without ever having seen the car since it was restored. Yes, it did originaly have Sandalwood interior and top. That fact was clearly mentioned by me in the auction catalog and to every prospective buyer that looked at it.It didn't bother me , or the buyer. I actually prefered it being a black interior and top.

I respect your opinion, and those of other members of this group. However , I respectfully ask that before passing judgement (no pun intended) on any of my cars , how much they are worth or are not worth, or my personal financial standing that you please get some first hand knowledge of anything you care to comment on.

Value (percieved or real) of ANYTHING in life only matters in the owner's eye when you really get down to it. On the day I sold my car , the new owner felt it was worth what he bid , and I felt I was getting a fair value for all of my efforts in making the car what it was , so we had a deal.

If you are truly interested in seeing what your RAIV Judge convertible is worth for real, take it to a first rate restoration shop , have it restored to #1 condition , and then enter it in an auction and let it "sit on the money" as they say. There are plenty of fine restorers such as Aloha/Imagine , Tiemann , Gary Thurlow, etc.. that would all be happy to take $100k give or take to get your car done to the level that I had mine done to.

At that point, we can compare prices on a hard loaded, good color , 4 spd w/ A/C RAIII Convert to a RAIV convert and see what the difference really is in the real world.

I will promise you this, for both your benifit and the buyer's , if this day should ever come I will reserve any comment on the condition of your car unless I have personally inspected it at the time of the sale.

As always, you are more than welcome to come here and look at any of my cars in person at any time. I'll even give you a tour of the toothpaste factory.

Regards,
Colin

[Belair62]

I agree Colin..I witnessed both the car and the auction......when the car rolled in there was quite a stir and the bidding got hot...beautiful car and restoration...and honestly described...

[supergonzo]

Hey Rob, I haven't driven the RAIV convert down the track yet. I have 2 other RAIV hardtop cars.One a Judge hardtop.
Both automatic cars.
The Judge RAIV hardtop runs about 13.30's consistently, although in cool air last year it ran a 13.06@105 mph. However this is with drag radials in an otherwise pure stock configuration. It seems consistent with what RAIV cars are running at the pure stock drags. 3.90 gears

The other hardtop GTO RAIV car, ran exactly the same as the Judge above, so I got bored with it. And I put headers on it, just to see how much better they were than the RAIV manifolds. It picked up 4 tenths!! I was surprised, it ran a 12.68@107 in cool October air here last year. Not bad for a motor I have yet to even take apart yet. Didn't even re-jet the carb! But that was under exceptional conditions.

Again the RAIV convert hasn't been down the track yet, (don't want to break anything) but I am assuming it will run 13.40-60's maybe? I am tempted actually to take it once before the July 24th race just to see if it will run well http://www.musclecarrace.com/Sept 03-steveP and Me.jpg .

Thats my Judge and my previous car and LS6 Chevelle , which I sold.

[Chevy454]

Those are some pretty good times there, Gonzo! And 4 tenths just from bolting up headers...WOW!! Kinda makes ya wish ya didn't know how bad those manifolds were hurtin' ya, huh?!?

I envy you and the rest of the FS/FAST cars that make it out to the July 24th event. I've heard for years that E-town is arguably the best ET/MPH track around, as well as a nice a facility...but it's a rediculously long haul from here! Good luck to you and the rest of the guys going, though! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

[supergonzo]

Thanks Again Rob, I'll try to do my best, just actually just wanna see all the other cool cars that will be there.

As far as Judge Convertibles go. I just sold my 69' Judge Convertible RAIII 4spd car. I did very well. So I know what they go for. This was the car I just sold. At one time I had 4 69' Judges. I have 2 now. Both RAIV cars. SO MUCH faster than RAIII's and standard GTO motors. Although I love all Pontiacs. &lt;BR&gt;
http://www.musclecarrace.com\ra3 conv.jpg

Your Yenko is an awesome car itself.

[COPO_Anders]

OK, it´s not a Judge. But I was reading a Swedish magazine tonight, Power magazine, and they had an article about a -70 RAM AIR IV GTO. Lars Sundeborn, a Swedish guy living in Santa Ana saw an ad in the Los Angeles Times back in -79 and bought the car. It´s a silver fourspeed convertible.

There is also a -70 RAM AIR IV GTO hardtop in Sweden. This one is gold. I´ve seen it on several meetings.It´s been restored to perfect condition.
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

Anders

[JoeG]

Ram Air IV AD------------ http://www.yenko.net/attachments/86075-judge.jpg

[yellowjudge]

Colin, I see my crumb illicts a full course meal from you. Someone said something about your bright teeth after the sale, harmless, but jump on him if you want.
Price, it was an auction, sale price disclosed to anyone. Alot of people discuss cars @ these high profile sales, as do I. OK,short for Oklahoma, as I had looked @ that car back in 1996, think that is where it was then. I'm intouch w/prev. owner who inspected it, &amp; told me what he thought. I'm sure it was a great car.
Not taking anything away from any RAIII cars, but you're a car salesman, so what ever engine, option etc your car has, it's the best @ that time. I'm sure all the people on this site would agree, a RAIII&lt;RAIV. Would you say a Z-28 is =to ZL1? Or an SS 396=LS6
100k resto?, that's some resto, out of my league.

No raiv judge convert= to a RAIII in value, your a good salesman, but that's a tough sale! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[yellowjudge]

Wow what color of 70 raiv? I saw a black auto convert in Phili, was that it?
Mine is a 70 red raiv 4spd.
Yours looks great!, Is the convert done? Saw one came out of Ariz. in 87, but never saw the PHS. Have fun racing! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[csx289]

Eric,
Again, with all due respect, my post was not an attack on you, nor was it in any way trying to convey that a RAIII car is worth anything near a RAIV car! My point, which I feel you have missed, was that in response to YOUR question of basically "If Colin's RAIII car is worth this, what is my RAIV convert worth NOW". My comment was that it would be quite interesting to compare the difference in values IF you could find a RAIV convert restored to the same level as my RAIII car,and offer it for sale in a similar venue.

Also, I had made the point that your comment of the car being "OK" was perhaps unfair , as YOU have not seen the car since its restoration - a quite exhaustive and expensive one I might add. If there was a previous owner of the car at the auction, he did not introduce himself to me. I would have loved to talked to him. However, that still does not change the fact that you did not see it - unless, of course, you guys share eyeballs http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Finally, as far as what I veiw as being derragatory remarks as to my being a "car salesman" , yes , I do sell cars. I also collect and keep more than I sell. I have sold a good number of cars to members of this site , and I am sure that they would agree that I am a lousy "salesperson". I let the cars sell themselves, and some cars I could have sold dozens of times over, but I keep them. Why is that? Because I am as much as a car nut as anybody on this board. I simply have to sell some cars to make money to keep some, simple as that!

I have to say that all appearances aside, you seem to be a better salesman than me. Haven't I been reading posts (this thread included) about your cars and how much they are worth for a long time? I don't think I ever made a post about my black Judge convertible.I also recall speaking to you on the phone a few times when you were selling ME cars - or at least brokering them.

And yes, $100k is what it takes to do a good resto these days with real parts and show paint. I'd love to see your cars done like this at some point, they deserve it.

My invitation still stands, you are more than welcome to come to my place at any time and poke around.I think you'd enjoy it.

Best regards,
Colin

[firstgenaddict]

There is currently a 70 RA IV conv undergoing a complete frame off and I believe that the current asking price is $699,000. With the price going up as per current trends. Here is the link 70 RA IV conv. (http://www.customclassicgto.com/mypage.html?pg=0024) http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[yellowjudge]

Colin, really nothing wrong w/selling cars, it's how you make a living. As far as value, that is really subjective, my thought is something worth what someone else will pay for it. Your Judge, must of been worth what you got for it, as two people had to bid it to that level. I'm sure it was nice, I saw pics awhile back in unrestored. Not sure if it was a frame off or on now. There was a guy there, who had the car from early 80s, I just went on his opinion.
Yes I did turn you to a deal, not offered any of my personal cars. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
I've had 1 car done to a concourse level. My 69 raiv TA, is really standout, as I've been told by some very noteworthy collectors. Guess I have good deal w/shop I use.
I will say I'm glad too see these pontiacs finaly receive the recognition they deserve, should I ever decide to part w/any,real prices are being set now! I did see a 70 black RAIV auto car @ 699k!! It will be interesting to see what it really sells for. Not to take anything away from Hemi Cuda converts, but I believe w/production figures close, a raiv convert Judge should be valued atleast 1/2! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[Charley Lillard]

Judgeragtop.."It was an OK car, orig. had sandalwood top &amp; inter. I'm sure he had nice paint on it!" When I read that statement I took it a a kind of slam. Yet you made it without even seeing but just going on someone elses opinion. I have seen cars that Colin has put up for sale and everyone I have seen I would be proud to own. I am not a expert on every nut and bolt of all the brands but his efforts on fit and finish are second to none when he gets done with them. You may have restored your 69 TA for alot less than the 100K talked about but I bet it was done with Friends, a few years ago and it took awhile. You cannot run a business , restore a # of cars and get them done in a timely manner by relying on Friends. You would quickly run out of Friends. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Charley.gif

[yellowjudge]

Charley Lillard... Thanks for comming to the"rescue" of Colin. Colin is a car salesman, nothing wrong w/that, that is his profession, but collectors &amp; sellers sometimes differ in descriptions.
Wow, I just said car had nice paint, as that was info relayed to me. I would not call that a slam. I'm sure the car was nice, not perfect that's my opinion. None are really perfect.
I don't reply to your responses to posts, &amp; don't recall asking for your critique of mine.
My 69 RAIV TA is a highly done total resto, Phil will attest to it's quality. Not perfect, but I try to always fine tune it. I did farm out all mechanics/plating/ &amp; found all nos myself, &amp; did total diassembly. I have a new shop I deal with, $35 per hr, excell paint, best I've seen. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

[csx289]

Eric,
Wow, you are just having a hard time with this post as of late. In the spirit of keeping this civil, may I please remind you that everybody including myself has made the point that you did not see the car and therefore are not qualified to comment on its condition with any accuracy.

Furthermore, I resent the continuous "used car salesman" comment, which I take as a slam. Historically , calling somebody that was about the worst slam you could give.I take offense to it , and remind you that I am a COLLECTOR who also just happens to sell cars , as much as I restore and keep them.I like to think that what I do, and the way I do it, is far different than what most people would consider a "salesman". Maybe, just maybe, if you took the time to know me as well as you feel you know the one car I sold that seems to be a bone of contention with you , you would realize that I am an entusuast just like you. Trust me, there are plenty of things that I could do that would be far more profitable than what I do now, but I wouldn't love them as much. Maybe someday I will fall back on my Advanced Automotive Engineering degree , or my years of study in Archetecture. Until then, I am going to keep buying, selling, trading, and COLLECTING cars.

Sometimes, my dog gets mad when my neigbor's dog "marks" his turf.The difference here is that we are not dogs, and I didn't piss in your yard.Why do I get the feeling that you think I did?

Now if I can just find my plaid sport coat, I could go back to the lot.... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Colin aka Rudy Russo

[LVCamaro]

Don't get heartburn over this guy Colin...maybe it'll sink in the third time around. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

SS

[Belair62]

Jeez you guys...it must be that time of the month around here !! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif And the first guy to piss in my yard gets buckshot...

[csx289]

Hey, I am sorry about that last time Gags, I thought it was Mike G's yard.

Can I interest you in some Corinthian Leather , or perhaps an Opera Roof? No money down - buy here, pay here!
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
cc

[Belair62]

No thanks Joey Bagadonuts....hey you sold the only cool car you ever had...that goofy ass Dart thingy !!!

[yellowjudge]

OK, I think I got it, the 3rd time.. Thanks! I never meant that someone who makes a living selling is a slam. You guys would never make it the "big" city being so uptight.

[yellowjudge]

You're OK(not Oklahoma) in my book! Plus you have a nice Judge. Everyone out I said nice, is that OK? Everyone should ease up, there is so many problems in the world.

[hvychev]

Why are these Pontiac threads always bitch sessions? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Charley.gif

[JoeG]

I've heard it's a GTO thing--Going Through Ovulation-- a very cranky time------ http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Belair62]

A lack of horsepower over a period of years has that effect on Pontiac people ! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif Just kidding guys ...relax

[MosportGreen66]

Sometimes over the internet a simple comment can skyrocket into a mess only because the original intent/direction of the 'poster' is not known. This website is a great free education -- lets not take advantage of it with "slams" or harsh words.

You guys are http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif and don't diss cars with low HP... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Charley.gif

[yellowjudge]

No hard feelings here! Low HP or not.HA!! We all have common interest in these classic cars. We should keep board as an informative Mecca! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Belair62]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif I just love to get you Passionate poncho guys every now and then !!!Ooops...I forgot I have one ! And a lot of you poncho guys helped me out with it...

[Pantera]

You better be carefull how you talk or some of those "poncho guys" may have to take you out behind the woodshed for some extra instruction..! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[yellowjudge]

Hey, the best instruction you can give him, would be to buy some more Pontiacs!~ HA!!!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[Belair62]

I am getting older and it's harder to control that BB horspower under foot so I just may start looking at more Pontiacs. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Charley.gif

[StealthBird]

I heard Pontiac made a car in 73/74 with a whopping .407 lift, 8.4 to 1 compression, weighed 3800 lbs, and somehow managed to run 13's off the showroom floor. Sounds pretty boring to me. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

The understated, the underated, the underdog. We like it that way. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[DaJudge]

That sounds like an SD455 TA to me. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[JoeG]

1973 SUPER DUTY FIREBIRD--Nice engine--in a http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif looking car,--Shame they couldn't/didn't offer it sooner---- http://www.yenko.net/attachments/86425-SDFIREBIRD.jpg

[dave hernandez]

Hi, everybody! I'm new to this forum, wanted to put in a posting with a few facts and a short story. About three months ago, I got my new issue of Hemmings Muscle Machines in the mail and I saw an ad with a sharp looking 70 Judge Convertible in it and I showed my wife of seven years the pic and said, "Hey, honey, this is kinda what my old Judge Convertible woulda looked like, restored, except mine had an off-white top and interior" A few weeks later, I was talking to a friend back east who's into Judge cars and parts, (not Eric) who said, "Hey, your old car is going up for sale near Chicago with Mecum" I said, are you sure? I saw that car and it has a black top and int. He said, yeah a collector who owned it in Texas didn't like the Sandalwood and changed it, when he restored it,before selling it to a guy in Milwaukee that markets them. Well, needless to say, after having owned the car from 82 or 3 to 96, I was interested in seeing it in restored condition, so I made the 3 hour drive to Belvidere, near Chicago to have a look, I took a copy of the PHS docs I had gotten for the car back when I first bought it, back then PHS was in Pontiac's headquarters and you called a number and requested it and they sent it out for free! Anyway, the auction day I found the car on display in the main auction tent, and asked the Mecum guy guarding it if I could take a look, he said Ok after I told him it was my old car, but he said the owner wasn't there, because I wanted to introduce myself and offer myself as info for a contact as provenance and info. (I had compiled a list of all the previous owners when I owned the car before, In Iowa that's available through the DMV, at least it was, then) Anyway, in the tent, I had a hard time believing it was the same car, until I pulled out my copy of the PHS and the VIN's were the same. The car looked sharp, but the stripes were Blue, Orange, Pink instead of the correct Yellow, Blue, Red. The car now had a hood tach, didn't come with one. Had sport mirrors, originally had chromed remote driver's mirror. Had a Formula steering wheel, originally had a Deluxe wheel color matched in Sandalwood, originally had door edge guards, now missing, originally had wheel well trim, now missing. The info board said, all numbers matching, including tranny,I was wondering how they found the original Muncie with the VIN stamped in it, because when I got the car it was gone and I couldn't locate it by calling
the previous owners. Back to when I bought the car, I had bought it from a friend here in town and when I bought it, the engine was out and the tranny and bell-housing and linkages gone, but that didn't bother me because I intended on restoring it and it was going to be a fairly easy restoration on a low mileage (67 or 76,000 mile car, I can't remember which) that I wound up selling after a divorce. The old 70 Judge convertible was a very solid car that just had a little rust in the rear quarters at the bottom, and I'm glad to see it sell for so much, it helps vindicate that I'd been saying since i bought it in '82 for $2500,that it would be worth a quarter milliom by 2000, well. I guess I was off a little! Anyway, as the saying goes, "that's the REST of the story! Thanks, -Dave

[hvychev]

Wow Dave that is a great story! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gifMan in this day and age nothing gets past anybody around here! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[PATRICKJOINER]

agreed frank,very interesting &amp; amazing information.... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

[DaJudge]

Does anyone know the color of the RA IV Judge convert Ralph Decresenzo ( sorry if spelled incorrectly ) is currently restoring?

[yellowjudge]

HI Mike, his name is Ray. It is a gold auto car. It came out of Spokane Wash. new. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[GOAT72]

Dave,
You didn't mention how much your old Judge brought in at the auction.
That's a great story!
I wish I could locate my 1st '68 ragtop Goat. It was painted Carousel Red in 1974.

Mac Goat72

[DaJudge]

My bad on the name, that's an interesting color. Does it have a black interior? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[yellowjudge]

HI, Dave was guy who posted about the black RAIII 70 convt. He was not able to buy back. I'm Eric, I still have my convt. Good luck on finding your old one. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[yellowjudge]

It has sandalwood, alot of options. Ray is redoing car. It was a late car, shipped 6/70. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[musclecarz]

Hey Eric, Check this out, Not a rag but cool none the less, I found this car a few months ago in the back of a warehouse here locally, Purchased from the original owner, 46,000 miles and all original paint, Window sticker,shipper invoice, every service record and interior warning tag.ect. pictures of car new on dealer lot and throughout 70's. Car sat in storage for most 80's and 90's only drived to a few local dragstrips and small local shows in last 20 years, Car still retains all of its original components. Ram air IV, 3.90 geared M21 4 speed, P/S, PDB, Wood wheel and rear defrost, Car is wearing the Day 2 Wheels and tires, Originals were still with car also, Original owner installed 4.56 gears and headers on car in 70's and time slips are still in the glovebox and show 12.65 @ 111 ,mph, Original manifolds and gears were re-installed and was raced in a stock form with et's @ 13.50's 103mph, Car runs Awesome though I don't dare drive it hard with these old tires on it, Just wanted to share part of the story on a seldom seen all original car.

[musclecarz]

more pic's

[musclecarz]

2 more

[musclecarz]

last one

[budnate]

WOW, Cool!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Mr70]

..What budnate said. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

That has to be one of he great finds of recent time for a GTO, WOW!!!

Any chance of posting some of the original photos you mentioned?

[yellowjudge]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif I like it! Matador Red. It looks very nice! I found a 70 RAIV Judge, special Daytona Yellow. Most all orig. paint, western. I really think the Judges have really come into their own, &amp; will always remain a real special interest car, esp. the RAIVs. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif <font color="yellow"> </font>

[musclecarz]

Hello and thanks, The original owner is on vacation for a bit and he is getting quality copies of all the picture for his own memories but I will gladly post some pic's, You can see a Manufacturer plate on the car in one photo, He was a engineer for Ford and was in Detroit every week for a little over 2 years. car cruised Woodward ave heavily from 71-74, Drove it back and forth from Greenville Mi weather permiting. And claims" of course " That with 4.56'6 and street slicks that he was unbeatable. though he says he got smoked by a well preped 69 Hurst Oldsmobile, I need to bring the underhood up to level of the rst of the car before I post any engine pictures, Heaty cross-over removed and it has old Moroso thick header gaskets on the manifolds, Just kinda ugly now but VERY original, I believe he had the bumper re-painted and it did not hold up? maybe?. I'll post a few more pictures Thanks

[Steve_Hoog]

I noticed the bumper, but that could be fade because of the different material. You have landed yourself a gem of a car, don't cut it short for the minor things you listed. Non of the changes you mentioned can in anyway take away from the car, how old is it? 35 years? Nothing short of amazing condsidering it had strip time and minor street usage.

[musclecarz]

Thanks again and here are a few more pic's

[musclecarz]

Please note that these pictures are the day we got the car before cleaning which it needed, Notice the trim clip that was under the original glued down trunk mat. Trunk is beautiful!! No rust on the car at all!!

[musclecarz]

couple more

[musclecarz]

one more

[firstgenaddict]

Love the originality of that Judge. Dare I call it a "Survivor" http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[Mr70]

Can you show us some close ups of the Engine Compartment? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[musclecarz]

Couple of component shots. The engine bay needs to be cleaned up badly

[musclecarz]

A correct 69 only RA4 lower pan, Wiper motor removed years ago, came with car as did all the original plug wires and hoses, Still has original P/S belt, Alternator belt is gone

[musclecarz]

last one.

[musclecarz]

Why not. One more,

[GOAT72]

[ QUOTE ]
Please note that these pictures are the day we got the car before cleaning which it needed, Notice the trim clip that was under the original glued down trunk mat. Trunk is beautiful!! No rust on the car at all!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Any GTO is beautiful -no matter how clean or unclean it is!
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif
This is a great find and I am extremely jealous of your opportunity.

Very nice, indeed!
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

~McGoat
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[Belair62]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[Charley Lillard]

Congrats on the nice find. Neat to see.

[hvychev]

Totally freakin cool!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

[JoeG]

[quote He was a engineer for Ford and was in Detroit every week for a little over 2 years. car cruised Woodward ave


heavily from 71-74

[/ QUOTE ]

There was a two page ad from GM , ---A GTO crusin past a sign that read "WOODWARD AVE"---GM was forced under community and insurance pressure to pull this ad ----Very, Very http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif CAR/FIND-------

[GOAT72]

[ QUOTE ]


There was a two page ad from GM , ---A GTO crusin past a sign that read "WOODWARD AVE"---GM was forced under community and insurance pressure to pull this ad ----Very, Very http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif CAR/FIND-------

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this the ad photo?
I believe it said "You know the rest of the story" under or above this photo.

Mac

[GOAT72]

[ QUOTE ]
Is this the ad photo?


[/ QUOTE ]

Whoops!
I posted the thumbnail. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Here's the viewable one.
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Mac

[JoeG]

Yep------------------ http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif http://www.yenko.net/attachments/91717-woodward1.jpg

[Steve_Hoog]

Here are your gaskets.

Gasket set on Ebay. (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&amp;rd=1&amp;item=2485835192&amp;catego ry=34202)

[JLP]

What got them in trouble was the caption. "You know the rest of the story." Said it promoted street racing. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif Well, duh. It is pale in comparison to today's ads. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

Great find. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif Only thing I see missing is the heat cross over. There are block off plates instead. Ah, who needs stupid engine heat when all you do is race it in warm weather.

[yellowjudge]

Anyone go to ames show @ Norwalk dragstrip? I was there yesterday, great cool weather. I did not find any parts, &amp; not many cars there for show. Jim Wangers was there. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif I would guess sat &amp; sun would be better days to be there. It is a great place to have show.

[yellowjudge]

Has anyone seen the 70 silver RAIV judge convt. on customclassicgto.com ?? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[gtaa9]

Where's this registry at for the RAlV 70 VERTS?