1969 Trans Am Convert Clone

[sprchvy]

Imagine my surprise to see a very well done 69 Trans Am clone not 6 blocks from my house! Not knowing Pontiacs very well, I assumed that this was not a real TA because of the convertable top. The owner indicated that it was in fact a clone, but indicated that 7 or 8 TA converts were made in 69 making them 6 figure cars today. The car was very well done with the correct white and blue paint scheme, blue deluxe interior, power windows, tilt, gauges, console, 400 motor,auto trans, 10 bolt multi-leaf, vintage air, etc.. What is a well restored (#2), highly optioned, TA clone convert worth?? Any quesses?

[supergonzo]

They made 8 real ones....2 sold last year for over 200K

Lotsa 69 T/A clones popping up hardtops & converts, I would say 20K. Unlike Yenko clones the T/A clones have not appreciated much over a standard firebird. Because there wasnt'a secret Pontiac bigger motor COPO option. And they haven't been in a recent dumb movie.
--------
T/A's had a unique vertical stacked gauge arrangement with woodgrain insert that almost all standard firebirds do not have. Usually a good way to instantly tell a clone. Other than a Vin check with PHS. As well as all T/A's were ram air cars, with a unique one year ram air system.

Both of the above are very rare & expensive to purchase,(like as much as the paint job) and most cloners do not bother with them.

[JIM]

Hi; I would like to add some insight on 69 Trans Ams. The stacked gauges were not standard. A rallye gauge cluster with a clock was, it was code W63. This is the same cluster that a Firebird could be had with or with a hood tach. Please note a hood tach was not available on a Trans Am. The instant kicker is the steel hood. It is the single most expensive part of the car period. These cars all had a functional fresh air hood, however they were not all Ram- Air Cars. Only 55 cars received the Ram AirIV engine in 69.I had the Automatic Original paint 69 Trans Am at Fall Carlise Last year, where I sold It. It did not have stacked gauges in it. I currently have a 4spd 69 Trans Am That does. It is currently undergoing restoration and Is for sale. I also have a 69 400 Firebird Conv, White, loaded A/C P/W, P/T, Auto ,T/A rear spoiler and many other factory items for sale. Both have PHS docs and are the real thing. The Firebirds are just starting to come alive and will be right behind the Camaros before long.You should be able to buy a very nice conv in the 25-30 range I hope this Helps.
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif Jim

[zoidberg]

I thought they were all Ram Airs, just not all Ram Air IV. Weren't there 56(?) R/A IVs, and the rest Ram Air III? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[zoidberg]

[ QUOTE ]
Only 55 cars received the Ram AirIV engine in 69.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just saw that, sorry. Don't mind me. I'm an idiot with a short attention span.

[GTO_DON]

THEY WERE ALL RAM AIR...MOSTLY RAM III'S I HAVE A 69 RAM AIR FIREBIRD [NON TA] WITH THE IN-DASH TACH AND THE STACK GAUGES, DELUXE INTERIOR AND AIR WITH A 4 SPEED.. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[DaJudge]

Having owned a complete numbers matching 69 Trans Am 4 speed car I would like to make a few comments. The 69 T/A did not come standard with a Rally Gauge package and clock, these were options. Rally Gauges did not become standard until 1970.What did come standard was power steering and brakes.They also had a power steering oil cooler that mounted on top of the core support just in front of the fan shroud which was notched to acommodate the mounting clips. The standard engine was the RA III. The TA had functional air extractors on the fenders as well as a unique hood and ram air pan set up. They also came standard with a wood wheel in the early cars and the formula wheel superceded this later in the production run. Ram Air birds and TA's had long branch ram air exhaust manifolds.If you ordered an indash tach and gauges the tach took the place of the Rally gauges and you then got the stack gauge set up. My TA was in building T at last years GM Carlisle event. These cars run and handle very well. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[JIM]

PONTIAC REFERS TO THE STD TRANS AM ENGINE IN TWO FORMS, THE L74 HO 400 ENGINE, IT IS THEN REFERED TO AS THE RAM AIR III MOTOR IN THE ADVERTISING . USUALLY WHEN PEOPLE REFER TO THE GOLFBALL SIZE PORT RAM AIR CARS THESE ARE THE IV'S. THE III'S SHARE THE STD HEADS AS YOU KNOW. CHECK OUT COLUMN 34 OPTION 8 ON PHS'S FORM'S AND THIS SHOWS THE SAME. IT WAS JUST A NAME GAME. THEY DO RUN GREAT AND HANDLE GREAT. I EVEN HAD ONE OF MINE TO THE DRAGSTRIP LAST SUMMER. THE STARTER ABOUT HAD A HEART ATTACK, BUT YOU HAVE TO DRIVE THEM.
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif JIM

[442w30]

Hey, Jim, former DE resident here!

It's my understanding that the engine is called the 400HO, and one could order Ram Air with it. The latter is often called the RAIII. This engine was standard on the Trans Am.

The GTO never had this HO/RA option. RA was standard with this engine in the GTO.

[NEATSS]

Last summer at the T/A Nats I saw a very nice original paint low mile '69 TA. This car had the D80 Fisher body code on the cowl tag indicating the factory installed rear spoiler. Did any other '69 Firebirds get a rear spoiler from the factory? If not, is this a good indication of a real '69 TA?

[StealthBird]

The only way to tell for sure is to contact PHS and get a copy of the build sheet.

As a rule of thumb, the quickest way to identify a 69 Trans Am is that the paint code should be 50-50 (white/white), and the code D80 should appear on the data plate. The D80 code was the rear spoiler, and the spoiler was not available on regular Firebirds.

[sprchvy]

Thanks guys for the info. The car does have the steel RA hood and the stacked gauge assembly. The going price is right in the range that you specified. I have contact info for anybody that might be interested.

[supergonzo]

Well then they spent some money to make it a decent clone.

All 69' Trans Am's were RAIII or 1 of 55 RAIV's, so they all had ram air.
The standard gauge package is not the same as the vertical stacked gauge package, which was available on both birds & T/A's. 80% of T/A's have the vertical gauge set up. This was a transition gauge package between years 69-70. To buy one now complete is about $3500-$4000. I had 6 cyl 69' bird with a factory in dash tach! and it did not have vertical stacked gauges.
As far as GTO's there were 3 step up performance engines available the 400HO the 400RAIII and the 400RAIV. The 400HO is the same engine as the RAIII without ram air. Ratings were 360HP, 366HP, 370HP.
------------
I forgot about paint codes, Mike is right again as usual, paint codes on the trim tag is a good way as well. And of course PHS.

[tjs44]

I have a PHS documented 69 T/A,it has std. interior,and no stcked guages.ALL T/As did not have the stacked guages.They were a option on all birds I believe.A friend has a set in his Sprint.

[supergonzo]

I agree tjs44. Had same situation here. But 80% of the time T/A's had the vertical gauges at least thats the figure quoted in the "Firebird" book by witzenberg. But you never know.

[442w30]

[ QUOTE ]
As far as GTO's there were 3 step up performance engines available the 400HO the 400RAIII and the 400RAIV. The 400HO is the same engine as the RAIII without ram air. Ratings were 360HP, 366HP, 370HP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gonzo, this is incorrect for the GTO. The only 400HO was the RAIII. It's correct for the Firebird but with different hp ratings.

The Trans Am should be thought of as being analogous to a Judge, for the most part.

[StealthBird]

Very true. The 1969 Trans Am was essenially a striped and winged 1969 Firebird 400, with the same options available on both cars. But where the 69 Judge was just a GTO with a wild paint color, stripes, emblems, and a wing, there was really no mechanical differences between the GTO and the Judge.

The 1969 Trans Am, like the Judge, had a unique paint job and a rear wing, but the Trans Am did actually have some additional special parts.

The 1969 Trans Am used a special hood with long, tapered scoops, and the front fenders had functional air extractors. There was also a special front spoiler (basically a piece of flat Lexan) that kept the nose down at high speeds. All three of these items had special part numbers.

And contrary to popular belief, the 1969 Trans Am did not have a rear sway bar.

[supergonzo]

Although this is getting a little silly now.Here's something for thought.

The terms RA 1, RA2, RA3...are not Pontiac terms or references to their prooducts in the 60's. According to Pontiac you had a HO motor or a HO motor with the ram air option. They weren't responsible for the names associated with them. It was Pontiac engine builders, and guys like you and me that call them RAIII's or RAII's. Only in 69' did Pontiac catch on and actually call a engine a RAIV. Until then there were no cars with RA1, 2, or 3 stickers or emblems. You either had a HO motor with the ram air option or you didn't.
Although NOW Pontiac people can endlessly debate subjects such as RAIII's, According to Pontiac in 69' it was a ram air optioned car... Thats it.

[Belair62]

Silly is in the mind of the beholder...it's actually good stuff....how else does everyone find this kind of stuff out ! I look forward to seeing this other brand info. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[Jeff H]

Let me see, in 68 you had the RA II and base 400(HO) and in 69 it became the RA IV and base 400(HO aka RA III). I've never really followed the Pontiac engines that closely. Oh, and there's a 69 TA conv clone that shows up at the local Hooters cruise night once in a while. They are still cool to look at even if it's a clone. That TA look is awesome.

[JIM]

The most important part of the 69 Trans Am was the its road gripping suspension. the special 1" sway bar on the front, mated to special springs and shocks front and rear. A 3:55 HD 10 bolt Posi, rounded out the back end and a special varible ratio steering box, enabled it to turn like on rails. These were truely a blast to drive. The Camaro doesn't even come close in the ride and handleing dept. There were also a few built with a Blue vinyl top, and even more wierd, one with a green interior, and a couple in red, . Black was also avaiable, so they are not all blue inside. This summer I looked at a yellow 69 bird race car for sale , it had a real rear spoiler, a aftermarket hotrod hood on the out side. Upon closer inspection it had disc, A/C P/S multileaf, and what was originally a blue interior dyed black. It was a 50 50 blue int car with real spoiler. PHS docs confirmed it was a very optioned Firebird in the right colors, so the Hunt goes on!.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gifJim

[StealthBird]

One correction, Pontiac actually did use the term RAII in 1968. It was used quite boldly in their ad for the 1968 Firebird, with a title "Announcing Pontiac's new RAII..."

Quick rundown of the Ram Air engines, for those non-Pontiac guys... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

Ram Air was first offered as an over the counter kit in mid-year 1965 for the tri-power. The kit had the pan, seal, and instructions on how to cut the hood scoop open.

Popularity grew, and Pontiac added Ram Air to the option list in 1966. The kit was delivered in the trunks of GTO's, and had to be installed by the dealer. One of the stranger stories with this setup was that apparently these kits were removed by some inspection workers, thinking that line workers were smuggling parts out of the factory.

In 1967, Pontiac introduced their "Ram Air" engine, which had 4.33 gears out back as standard equipment. Very rare cars. The old high output 400 was dubbed 400 HO.

In 1968, the Ram Air engine continued, as well as the 400 HO. At mid-year, Pontiac released a round exhaust port version of their Ram Air package, and called it Ram Air II. The old 1967 engine was now referred to as Ram Air I.

For 1969, a new engine with redesigned round port heads, aluminum intake, wild cam, and 1.65 rocker arms came out. The original prototype used a funky Ram Air baseplate, and drew air from both hood scoops, as well as air from two large 4" tubes coming off the bottom of the baseplate and running up through the core support. This meant there were 4 ways to get air, and they called it Ram Air 4. Pontiac Engineers decided the air cleaner was too much (although it showed up in a few road tests), and the stylists like the roman numeral designation IV (they said it looked better on the hood scoop), hence Ram Air IV. The Ram Air II was gone.

The old 400 HO was still there, and was marketed as such in the brochures. It was to be the standard 69 Judge and Trans Am engine, and optional on the GTO and Firebird.

In 1970, things remained essentially unchanged. The term "Ram Air" had become so popular, and was so synonomous with Pontiac performance, that the 400 HO was now being called Ram Air III. This actually worked well, as 400 HO didn't signify that it was one step below the Ram Air IV.

All these engines went http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif pretty well.

A lot of people in 1969 wondered why Pontiac went from RAII to RAIV, but it really wasn't a jump in series, it was a simply a better sounding name than Ram Air III.

[yellowjudge]

Da Judge, hit nail on head! I'll expound just alittle. Most all TAs had the ralleys & decor(they are listed as option, & well show on PHS) Judges had them as standard equipment.
I have a 69 raiv TA,100% #s match. It is done to concours level. No console, or ralleys just poverty caps, stack tach & gauges, close ratio 4spd . They are great cars, & ex. rare

[442w30]

[ QUOTE ]

In 1968, the Ram Air engine continued, as well as the 400 HO. At mid-year, Pontiac released a round exhaust port version of their Ram Air package, and called it Ram Air II. The old 1967 engine was now referred to as Ram Air I.


[/ QUOTE ]

Mike's right, but I'd like to clarify two things: the quote above . . . the RAII replaced the RAI mid-year. They did not run concurrently. Also, through 1965-68, Ram Air was available as an accessory package on the GTO's lesser engines. The 1968 GTO that Hot Rod tested has this even though it was the standard 400/350 engine. Further proof is that the car did not get 4.33 gears (for some reason, Ram Air Firebirds received 3.90s instead.)

Here's the engine roster for 1967-69, excluding the 2bbl. engines:

1967
400/335
400HO/360
400RA/360

1968
400/350
400HO/360
400RA/360
400RAII/366

1969
400/350
400RAIII/366 (no relation to the RAII, despite similar rating.)
400RAIV/370

[StealthBird]

Great info! I also have that Hot Rod test, and it's very vague as to what that GTO actually had under the hood. I think there was as much confusion back in 1968 as there is today! Imagine in consecutive model years, Pontiac went from a 389 (66), to a 400 (67), to a mid-year RAII (68) with round port heads, to a RAIV (69), to a 455 (70), then a 455 HO (71/72), then an SD455 (73). Talk about yer quick engine development. Nowadays, manufacturers keep the same engine for years, maybe tweaking the computer here and there and marketing it as a selling point.

The Ram Air setup was available as a seperate option without ordering the Ram Air engine. I believe the 1969 Firebird option list has a code for Ram Air Inlet, which allowed a buyer to get a Ram Air setup without getting the RAIII or RAIV option.

Pontiacs are too confusing. I'm going back to Buick.
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

Notice specific reference to RAIII. Granted parts cataloging does not indicate what was on the original order sheets, however it is a GM publication. Whether GM referred to RAIII at point A or B, is not so much relevant to the fact that GM did reference RAIII.

Notice also 67 listing for Ramair, not just a matter of a pan in the trunk? I would imagine this meant cam in engine from assembly line.

GM is not an exact science, explore the facts with caution.

[StealthBird]

Steve, yep, as I stated above, Pontiac started calling the 400 HO the Ram Air III in 1970 in their internal documents, but not on the window stickers or on the order forms. Pontiac also never had hood scoop decals that said "Ram Air III", they simply said "Ram Air".

And yes, the 1967 Ram Air engine (later known as Ram Air 1) was a different animal than just getting the Ram Air option on a 1967 GTO. The 1967 Ram Air engine included the Ram Air setup, but also a different cam, better valvesprings, and 4.33 gears. They were sort of the shotgun version of a GTO, designed for dragstrip duty and street racing.

Cool cars. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Jeff H]

Sounds like the Drag Pack combination on the Fords.

[Steve_Hoog]

Mike

Wasn't directing that at you, yours was just the last post to reply from. My bad.

[StealthBird]

Steve, no problem! I realized you were commenting on other posts. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

Back to the T/A clone topic, another odd thing about the 69 Trans Am's were the grilles. The standard 69 Firebird used silver/gray grilles, the Firebird 400's used the same silver/gray grilles, but had a unique chrome trim surrounding each grille, while the Trans Am (built off the Firebird 400) did NOT use the chrome 400 grille surrounds. They simply blacked out the grille.

Other discrepancies are the front bumper arrowhead emblem, which all Trans Am's and Firebird 400's had (but many promo photos show Trans Am's without the emblem), and depending on the build date, sometimes the blue stripes on the rear deck went under the spoiler (leaving the spoiler white), and sometimes the stripes went over the spoiler.

[supergonzo]

"1969
400/350
400RAIII/366 (no relation to the RAII, despite similar rating.)
400RAIV/370"


This is slightly off but , here goes beating a dead horse.
I have the Pontiac sales brochures from both 1968 and 1969 early and revised additions, I found them the other day and looked up what Pontiac had in their announcements.

The 68 stuff is correct as written before.
In 69'
The engine GTO options were

400/350 HP standard GTO
400/360 HO (Known as the HO engine)
400/366HP RAIV... Originally rated as 366hp in Pontiac Brochures early on. With Arrival of the Judge this became 370HP. And the 400/360 HP HO motor with ram air in the Judge became LATER known as the RAIII. You could buy a 400/360 HO motor non ram air in either a GTO or rated lower in a Firebird.

The Only differences in any of the D-port motors was the camshaft durations, they all had the same lift. And used all of the same engine parts. The HO motors and the RAIII as LATER known used the same camshafts, but the RAIII obviously had ram air. If you were to order a 69' Judge it came standard with a "RAM AIR 400" there is NO mention of a RAIII motor.

The previous comment about RAIV's name coming about because of 4 ways to get air into the motor was correct. Until they found the system to complicated to build. It had NOTHING to do with the chronological order of 400 ram air engines.

http://www.stockmusclecars.com/68-engines.jpg

http://www.stockmusclecars.com/69-engines.jpg Again there are NO stickers or emblems on any GTO's or Firebirds designating a RA1 / RAII / RAIII engine.
Only ram air or RAIV

[442w30]

You are incorrect about the 400HO/RAIII for the GTO. In 1969, the 400HO was only available with Ram Air, hence the Ram Air 400 or RAIII. NEVER was it available without Ram Air.

Also, to clarify, the first Ram Air engine to receive a number designation was the RAII. The first Ram Air to receive decals were the 1969s.

[supergonzo]

442w30 .........dude, I am looking at the Original Pontiac 1969 sales album literture(printed by Pontiac), there was a 400HO without ram air. Look at the image I posted.

Its getting kind of silly now, who cares anyway, they are basically the same engine, one with ram air and one without.

If you personally want to believe there was no 400HO engine in 1969. Well thats up to you. I'm done with this silly topic.

[442w30]

Hey, if you can't deal with a civil discussion, that's cool. You were the one who brought it back from the dead.

I am curious why you say "it's from the brochure, so it must be true!" when they obviously got the hp wrong. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

Brochures are not a good source of accuracy.

If you look at 1969 GTOs, you'll see that all the 400HO cars are Ram Air cars. Look at documented production figures and you'll find the same thing.

[Steve_Hoog]

69 T/8 M.T. Ram Air-III or H.O.
further done
All V/8 400 exc, Ram Air or H.O.
then
69 F/8-T/8 Ram Air-III, IV or H.O.

F=Firebird T=Tempest (GTO)
8=V8

I also remember 69 GTO's coming through our dealership without Ram Air but having H.O.

This was on the paperwork from GM, unfortunately some one took that from my possession years ago.

The above GM published catalog should do it on the matter? Also note I had already posted this catalog page in this thread, the answers were before you all along.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/CharleySucks.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

"further done" should be "further down"

This is a perfect example of why NOT to have tropical drinks in the back seat of a Pinto with Belair.

[Belair62]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[442w30]

Should do it on the matter? Not quite. Trying to gather evidence. Will be back, Watston!

[Jeff H]

I don't want to sound like a negative person here, but dealer brochures and parts catalog listings have no meaning to what actually happened. Look at the 1971 LS6 Chevelle engine option that is listed everywhere, but was never actually available. Also, the MN6 dual disc clutch for 69 Camaros, it was listed, but none were ever ordered or delivered. I think it will really come down to looking at original documentation and original engines to determine what the engines were called. What does PHS say and what does GM of Canada show for these engines?

[MrsBillyBobcat]

[ QUOTE ]

I also remember 69 GTO's coming through our dealership without Ram Air but having H.O.



[/ QUOTE ]

You do? Weren't you only 5 or 6 years old in 1969?

[GTO_DON]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif

[copo9566aa]

Just Curious for what exactly 366 HP no more logic 365 HP http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
350 HP
360 HP
366 HP http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
370 HP
Another Pontiac mystery

[Steve_Hoog]

Jeff

Yes catalog's aren't the best reference. In this ones defense; the 1983 version from which this came, all of the non-serviced and discontinued parts had been long weeded out of this catalog. Anything left in this catalog at time of print, was close as it will get to good.

I so wish I still had my families dealership records for 69 sold cars, I studied them like the Bible until they left my possession in 91. 69 was my favorite year, and I had removed some of the records on 69 from storage. I can remember several things that were way off target from what is generally talked about, this H.O. thing was one of them. I wondered why these 69 GTO's had H.O. listed in the GM paperwork yet know one ever talked about it or referenced it.

I can remember street racing with my cousin Gary Hoog; who was old enough to drive at the time, in a 68 dark green Bird. I remember it so well because I was fascinated with the hood tach. 5 years old sitting on my knees watching the needle on the hood, was very impressionable. Later in life I had to ask him what year it was, he was stunned that I remembered the hole thing. And more surprised I remembered what kind of car, color, and the hood tach. As kids we used to fight over the plastic models that GM put out, king of the hill got the GTO's and Birds. So we did have a perspective of what the models were at an early age. Later when I was old enough to read and cared, I studied all of the internal paperwork deligently.

Some of it is still around in the old building, and I have plans to retrieve it. So I may be able to share some of it with you in the near future, for those Pontiac people interested.

Steve

[DaJudge]

Steve,
I just got off the phone with the receptionist 10 minutes ago at Ernie Miller Pontiac. I know some people here may not like my posts, but I have never lied to them and have always answered them or made posts to the best of my knowledge.

Why then when I asked the receptionist if you or your family owned the dealership did she said NO?

This hobby for the most part is made of hard working and honest people. Is your life that boring that you need to make up stories? What's your real deal?

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[Pantera]

He only works at Ernie Miller now. They owned a small town dealer ship not Ernie Millers. He has showed me the pic of it.

[Steve_Hoog]

This is border line stalking.....

I have posted numerous family pics of my family's dealership under Cool Judge Photo thread. My family's dealership was in Muskogee OK at 6th and Court (last location). My great grandfather W.A. Kuykendall started it in 1938, my uncles sold out in 84 or 85. This pic is one that I have already posted, but here it is again.

My uncles decided to cut and run with the money without consulting the rest of the family, much to my disappointment. I had always intended to be the next one to take the reigns, but I was still in college at the time. Ernie Miller Pontiac is 45 minutes away in Tulsa, Ernie was kind enough to hire me before he died. I now work for Marc Miller, who still keeps it under his dad's name.

I sure hope that will do it for you.

[StealthBird]

Wow, this thread is getting strange. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Back to the references on factory literature, factory brochures are not good reference material. The 1969 Firebird sales brochure shows the Firebird 350 H.O. with dual hood tach nacelles. The passenger side nacelle had a Ram Air hose connected to a modified air cleaner. This setup never saw production. Heck, there are also errors in the factory 1969 Pontiac Service Manual http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif. Some errors were corrected later via Pontiac bulletins, others were not. The most obvious error is a photo showing the different Pontiac V8 pistons, from the 428 to the RAIV. The captions under the photo are reversed.

GM had schedules to keep, profit margins to watch, employees to control, and they weren't thinking of future collectability. If something was wrong when the customer received their car (not a flaw, but a factory goof up), the dealer would correct it. What I've heard lately are more and more stories from the folks that were actually ON the assembly line, and they recall supplier problems, glitches in the machinery, even times when employees called in sick and someone filled in they weren't as careful as the regular employee, or vice-versa. If a supplier went on strike, or was late on their delivery, substitute parts were used. It happened all the time. The assembly line would not stop unless it was a serious problem with a major part.

That being said, we now have people 35 years later debating bolt head depth, washer design, the percentage of gloss in an A-arm, exhaust pipe hangers, etc. That's one of the problems I see with reproduction parts. Once a part is reproduced, everyone has the exact same part, and that's not necessarily correct. There WERE factory mistakes and goofs, and sometimes they used alternative parts for a day or two until the supplier was back in stock.

Some 69 Trans Am's had the stripes under the rear wing, some over the wing. Some were missing the front bumper arrowhead (supposed to be part of the Firebird 400 package), and some had hood scoop decals. Pre-production publicity photos show the 69 Trans Am without a front spoiler. Go figure....

[Steve_Hoog]

And maybe you should ask a question or two before firing off blanks, an apology is expected.

[GTO_DON]

YOU DONT OWE HIM AN APOLOGY MIKE. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif HE'S BEEN MAKING EVERYBODY ON THIS BOARD BELIEVE HE OWNED THE DEALERSHIP HE WORKS AT SINCE HE JOINED THIS SITE! JUST A PARTS GUY EH! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif WOW IT MAKES ALL THAT RAM V STUFF WORTH IT NOW. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

Because I have referred to the dealership I work at as "my dealership" and "our dealership", that means I have claimed to be the "owner/ dealer principal"?

"My or our" is a point of reference, not ownership. Back in the first thread I participated in, I said that "I work at a dealership". I did have a typo in leaving out "at", but I suppose the meaning was some what clear. Then if some one was so interested in my life to investigate it, a big clue should have been that my family's dealership was in Muskogee (and the current ownership still is open and in Muskogee), Ernie Miller is in Tulsa. I believe I mentioned Kuykendall and Muskogee a few times?

I didn't know where I worked was so important to you and Don? All you had to do was ask, then if I did make an inaccurate claim you could have had me dead on. Instead, both of you have taken a vague misdirected assumption and turned into personal slander.

Don.... I don't like you at all. But I have totally left you alone since the time you lost your cool and got temporarily banned from the board. I promise you my feelings for you are now worse.

Dajudge... Even though we butted heads at first, I have tried to be nice to you and keep it at a friendly tone. Please don't talk to me anymore, don't call my work, my family, or try to contact my dog.

[Charley Lillard]

I have not read all of this thread but the last few posts have headed in the wrong direction. Please get back to the main topic or I will lock this thread....Stop fighting or take your toys and go home http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Charley.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

This is what H.O. "may" have been in the 69 GTO: A M.T. manual transmission T(GTO) car could have had a 9785744 H cam. This cam may have been optional without RAIII, and therefore labeled H.O.

This is my theory and I'm looking for something to back it up. It's interesting to me and I love anything to do with 69's.

[442w30]

The issue is whether Ram Air was standard with the 400HO in the GTO. I don't think the cam has anything to do with it. If there's a cam issue, it has to do with cars coming with auto tranny or stick cars with AC.

[GTO_DON]

RAM AIR WAS ABSOLUTLY STANDARD WITH THE WS AND YZ MOTOR. IN 68 THE WS OR YZ COULD BE WITH OR WITHOUT RAM AIR. THE H CAM WAS DISCONTINUED EARLY ON AND REPLACE WITH THE S GRIND. HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH RAM AIR.

[442w30]

So you're agreeing with me - cool - but it is not true that Ram Air was available on the HO in 1968. It could have been dealer-installed, however.

[GTO_DON]

i made a mistake when i thoufght about it. i think the code would change to wi with ram air in 68 and they all had 433's in the rear. we are dead on with the 69's,im sure. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[442w30]

I have not been able to find any proof to support my opinion. I have an issue of The Legend that has some of this stuff, but it's in storage. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[ken67]

Steve
Could you post picture of Kuykendall pontiac in the 1960ts if you have one.
I have a 1967 GTO that was bought new there. would like to see picture of dealership. I can't find anything on Kuykendall pontiac. I'm from Missouri

Thanks Kenny

[wheelhop]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ken67</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Steve
Could you post picture of Kuykendall pontiac in the 1960ts if you have one.
I have a 1967 GTO that was bought new there. would like to see picture of dealership. I can't find anything on Kuykendall pontiac. I'm from Missouri

Thanks Kenny </div></div>

you do realize this post is from ten years ago?

[SmallHurst]

Time stands still in Missouri. Enough said!

[Keith Seymore]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wheelhop</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ken67</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Steve
Could you post picture of Kuykendall pontiac in the 1960ts if you have one.
I have a 1967 GTO that was bought new there. would like to see picture of dealership. I can't find anything on Kuykendall pontiac. I'm from Missouri

Thanks Kenny </div></div>

you do realize this post is from ten years ago? </div></div>

Steve has not been well as of late, but I sent him a note to see if he could help this guy out.

K

[Steve_Hoog]

I only have one of my Grandpa and Uncle on the showroom next to a 63 GP, it's posted somewhere and will see if I can find it.

Otherwise the building is still there, when I go down there next I'll try to remember to snap a shot.

Plenty of pics in my head of the place; inside and out, and back in the day with the hot cars all over the place. A shame we can't extract those memories!

[Steve_Hoog]

This is the only one I have and the only one I know exist. There may be more from other relatives; but they have not admitted to having any.

http://www.428gto.com/py/63.jpg

[Steve_Hoog]

Never mind taking new pics.

Best thing to do is go to this thread: http://forums.performanceyears.com/forums/showthread.php?t=482962

[Keith Seymore]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Steve_Hoog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I only have one of my Grandpa and Uncle on the showroom next to a 63 GP, it's posted somewhere and will see if I can find it.

Otherwise the building is still there, when I go down there next I'll try to remember to snap a shot.

Plenty of pics in my head of the place; inside and out, and back in the day with the hot cars all over the place. A shame we can't extract those memories! </div></div>

LOL! I've often wished I had a USB port in the side of my head that could connect to a printer....

Thanks for posting -

K

[ken67]

Steve
thanks for the pictures &amp; history of Kuykendall Pontiac.Thanks again

Kenny