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teeg
10-16-2004, 10:12 PM
I just received my Collector Car magazine. In it, it talks about the soaring values of GTO's in general (in the auctions section). The most recent Hemmings talks about a likely cool off. I know it is a situation that is difficult at best to predict, but I'd like to find an honest assessment of the market and the likely duration of the strong prices.

Has anybody read any informative articles lately? If so, please let me know. I know that many GTO's are popular, but does anybody think a 1970 Ram Air IV Judge with full documentation and the best options could top $100K? What about $200K? Could they follow the e-body hemis?

I am curious about people's insight.

gtoguru
10-17-2004, 01:42 AM
You read all kind of stuff about what these cars are selling for. I have read about a couple $100,000 Judges already but dont know if that was the selling price or the asking price. Never seen any concrete price info. I think these RAIV cars will keep escalating in price. Not many made in 69-70. Way less left now. I see nice clone cars fetching 35-40,000. A nice stock 350HP GTO is bringing like $20-30,000 as I look at the national Deals on Wheels. As long as demand exceeds supply the prices will continue to go up. Jim

yellowjudge
10-18-2004, 07:04 AM
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif I've heard & know about a few nice 70 RAIV up there in price. The convert raiv Judges seem to be in a league of their own.Alot of new pontiac colectors I assume have spurred the interest. Whatever the market bears I love the cars
... collector of 69/70 RAIV Birds/ Judges http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

Rathbone
10-18-2004, 08:59 AM
You have to look at where the money is coming from to drive the prices to this level. That will tell you where the prices will go.

I believe the money is coming from baby boomers who are now empty nester's but pre-retirement age. They have cash and time to spend on things they've wanted for a long time but have been putting off. If this is the case, the drive will last until they begin to retire and choose to downsize their living expenses. Of course the very successful of them will escalate their collections at the same time. I think the prices will stay high until they die off. By then I'll be too old to care anymore.

yellowjudge
10-18-2004, 08:44 PM
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif I would say most of them are probably babyboomers. I think most of them were collectors of muscle cars before, & have discovered how rare & "cool" the Pontiacs are. I'm 37, & have been into "only" pontiacs for 20+ yrs. I would not want to try to pay for 4 raiv cars I have @ today's market prices. I believe they will con't to increase in value. i'm glad a flock of collectors are getting into the pontiac mix, it will bring more diversity in.http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

Canucklehead
10-18-2004, 08:59 PM
Problem is is that when these cars are sold there is such deception as to what the selling price was by buyer and seller. The buyer wants to keep it quiet and the seller wants to tell everybody he sold it for more than he did. These higher end collectors keep to themselves and don't like people to know what they have or how much their cars are worth. Can't say as i blame them becouse their always getting bugged by brokers. I think that muscle car values will keep going up as long as the economy stays strong. Pontiacs and Oldsmobiles havent hit there stride yet, i would think they will climb higher yet. I would expect mopars to drop as i don't see why they are so much higher than anything else, but im a chebby man anyways, so what do i know

yellowjudge
10-18-2004, 11:56 PM
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif I agree, seems very secretive @ times. Seems like these cars go for big$$$ @ auctions too. I love the hobby, really never branched out of 69-72 ponchos. I see you're from up north, alot bof great cars went up there. My 69 raiv bird convert came out of Canada. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

rich p
10-19-2004, 03:12 AM
I say hold onto your hats. Its still going up and some of the prices that I have seen would shock most !!
And you knuclehead, I will bite my tongue about your remark
(Can't say as i blame them becouse their always getting bugged by brokers)like all the others you have made.
If It wasnt for me alot of these cars would not have been found for the SERIUOS BUYERS..If I remember correctly didnt you call on a broker to find you some cars? Sorry got lost !!
I tell my clients to BUY now not tommarow. Cause after BJ they going to go up again. Every car is going up from a 6 banger to the V8's. Its a food chain down..
I was told this by a big collector in California yesterday that made alot of sence.

The people who are crying about the prices of today when a car could have been bought yesterday for 20K, wouldnt have bought that car for 20K then either. And that is a fact !!

DaJudge
10-19-2004, 05:11 AM
AMEN Rich http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

rich p
10-19-2004, 06:26 AM
(knucle)Lets hear why you think the Mopars are going to drop !!! You seem to be very knowledgable at this

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

GTO_DON
10-19-2004, 06:51 AM
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

442w30
10-19-2004, 09:27 PM
When you guys start dropping like flies, the prices will go down and I will reap the rewards. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

yellowjudge
10-20-2004, 12:56 AM
This is only my opinion. I see nothing nothing w/brokers, as long as they "try" be honest. They should remember people who shoot them leads. Hey, everyone has to make a living. They provide a service to collectors, alot of whom are very busy running a business, & don't have time to beat the bushes. When prices stay up, it gives the cars true value, they deserve. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

Canucklehead
10-20-2004, 01:10 AM
Sounds like a personal problem to me!!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

tom406
10-20-2004, 01:13 AM
I always thought the Mopar market would hit the wall when some of these Hemi E- body guys finally realized "Wow, I just paid (quarter million/half million/one million) dollars for a car whose door won't stop rattling until 5 minutes after I close it and the entire interior is made from 5 pieces of crappy plastic and a vinyl tablecloth". No such revelations have come forth though, and that market just keeps on goin'.

To me E-bodies are like Anna Nicole Smith - a wonder to behold (at least in her Playboy days) but not really built for a long term personal relationship.

As a seller and sometimes broker of these cars, I'm still suspicious we're on a bubble. With USA TODAY and the WALL STREET JOURNAL espousing the investment aspect, its only a matter of time before speculators hold more cars than enthusiasts and the bottom falls out. But maybe I'm just in denial, and the Yenko Camaros and Hemi Cudas are truly the Duesenbergs of the new era, and they will settle in at these prices for 10 or 20 years. (I'm not betting my kid's college funds on that theory, though.)
I do believe the market appears stable as long as the economy is OK and people who love the cars are still the ones buying them.

(PS to fellow brokers and sellers- I truly believe that this is a legitimate service, just like the real estate agents who helped me sell my old house and find my new one. But comments like "I tell my clients to buy TODAY, not tomorrow" ring kind of hollow when that's how you get paid. I know it's frustrating when other enthusiasts view salesmen and brokers as parasites rather than service providers, but throwing frustrated info-mercial slogans out isn't going to bring anyone around.)

Best of luck everyone - may you all buy low and sell high!

TOM

rich p
10-20-2004, 03:11 AM
(Sounds like a personal problem to me!!!)Thats the best you can do !!!
Telling people to buy before BJ! Call me after the auction and lets see what the sellers are saying again after BJ's.
If one Hemi Cuda sells over 200+ for a piece of *&&%&* lets see where the prices will go after BJ.
It happen last year,I was selling auto hemi Cuda's for 105 and had a hard time selling. Then BJ sold for big money a automatic for 200, well what do you think the seller for 105 was telling me afterwards, and the phone rang off the hook for 105. The smoke settled and sure enough I was selling auto's for close to 175+. For 105 I will take 10 of them right now !!! Its in your best interest if I say buy today not tomorrow(with or without me)not mine.
Im sorry for some who have gotten taken by brokers in the past, but I dont feel im in that ballpark and the many of people I have done sevices for feel the same way about what I do.I have seen and heard a lot of money made by brokers who stack alot of money on the buyers and im in shock by it. I found one car with 150 stacked and I wish I had the balls to do the to someone, but I cant. I still sleep well at night but when someone talks trash bad about something they NO nothing about and throws digs on brokers when they were using them to find them cars. I will stop there !!!
I provide a sevice for people who have NO clue where some of these rare cars are and to a seller who doesnt want to deal with people (tire kickers,picture collectors,and for the guy who just wants to talk about the day he drove in one when he was a kid) my sellers dont have the time for this.Someone on this site likes to bring the deal to the very end a pulls out at the last minute on the deal.
Find them cars and never buys WOW !!
My job is to try to make sure that the seller talks to one or two people and the car is SOLD. And for the buyer who gets the car he has always wanted without ALL the BS
Look at the auctions now. Is this fun for a buyer or seller with all the scams going on ??
Call or e-mail me with your Rare car for sale. I have a list of buyers and sellers and can save you alot of BS.
I try to keep a data of buyers and sellers cars under me.
Wish you luck with a Great hobby that we can still enjoy !!!
The market will die when we cant get gas for these cars

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

tom406
10-20-2004, 03:57 AM
There we go, with some supporting data, that "buy now" advice has some teeth! Thanks, rich p, for your thoughtful response.

I'll be curious to see BJ 2005 and its effects/fallout. I'm sure there will be a thread right here tracking it....

Xplantdad
10-20-2004, 05:24 AM
I'll be there the whole time as a vendor, so I can update the board if you want...

Charley Lillard
10-20-2004, 06:40 AM
Teeg....please fill out your Profile....

Chris396
10-20-2004, 11:41 AM
I think we are in a bubble. The question is how long will the bubble last? A year ten years? Prices are getting silly.

PPPJJJFFF
10-20-2004, 05:23 PM
I seldom post, but after reading "Tom406"s" message, I now realize how little he knows about collector cars and predicting the future!!!! Patrick

BARN FIND
10-20-2004, 05:52 PM
Rich

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

It is sad that you have to deal with people who are "collectors" instead of "enthusiests". An enthusiest would want to talk about their car as a seller and would enjoy the hunt as a buyer. I will stop you before you start about them not having the time to find a car, if you don't have the time to find it, you don't have the time to drive it. Why bother? Other than the profit when your "broker" sells it, you have gotten zero enjoyment out of it. Go collect something else and drive the price up on it instead!

442w30
10-20-2004, 08:11 PM
I also think we're in a bubble. Two years ago, a friend in FL who had a RAIV GTO told me his car would be worth 40 grand shortly. I told him he was insane - after all, cars went up in price 15 years ago after the stock market crash, then settled to a point of sanity. However, he has proven me wrong . . . and then some. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Analyzing the situation some more, I've arrived at this conclusion (and, of course, it may not hold water as my previous opinion on prices was wrong too!)

Baby Boomers are reaching 60 next year. They are at a point where they are retired or close to retirement. They have a lot of disposable income - a lot more than when they were younger. Maybe now they can afford the car they couldn't in the 1960s due to funds or family. Maybe they want to find the car similar to that they owned 30 years ago. So many of them are doing so.

The stock market has been down for a few years, so people are looking to put their money in other things. This is just like the late 1980s. Once the stock market goes up, I think prices will soften a bit. However, I don't think they'll sink to prices that are sane. That's cuz people still want to relive their youth and they can afford to do so. There are more musclecars now than there were 15 years ago as people have been saving and restoring them. But, despite the slight increase in supply, the demand is higher too. This will keep prices high.

This is why I made my comment earlier. Once the Boomers die, prices will go down to a point of sanity. Demand won't be there because Gen Xers are not into these cars as much, and Gen Yer even less. But it seems to be the case that people don't mind paying insane prices for these cars because they want to enjoy them in the twilight of their lives. Life is not forever, after all.

The only amusing gripe I have for all of this is the relativity of it all. Is a Hemicuda hardtop worth the same amount as a Mercedes Gullwing? I think their values should be related, and you don't need to tell me which is a neater car. Alas, in the end, it all comes down to supply and demand. Take the Mopar and the Merc to Germany and see how their values differ.

rich p
10-20-2004, 08:34 PM
Barn find you make me laugh with all that heart pouring out about (enthusiests) like you are ALL that !!
When the awsome cars of yours go up( 72 SS & 74 LT )you will be cashing in like you never thought. When your $1,000 dollar car turns into $3,000 I will hear from you wanting a buyer.No enthusiests who owns a car wants to hear that the car they own is worth less then what they paid. I know COLLECTORS who drive their Million dollar cars more then you drive your cars. I will be here when they are on the High and I will be there on the LOW. Im a Broker !!

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

BARN FIND
10-21-2004, 07:35 AM
I am real sorry if I hurt your feelings.

Chris396
10-21-2004, 11:34 AM
[ QUOTE ]
It happen last year,I was selling auto hemi Cuda's for 105 and had a hard time selling. Then BJ sold for big money a automatic for 200, well what do you think the seller for 105 was telling me afterwards, and the phone rang off the hook for 105. The smoke settled and sure enough I was selling auto's for close to 175+.

[/ QUOTE ]

See to me this seems like bubble mentality. Isn't this what happened with Ferraris in the late 80's? I was in high school at the time. Sounds like the tech market. “Buy now because they are only going to keep going up”. Who knows? Maybe they will. But it’s starting to sound like follow the leader. At some point you run out of leaders. It's fun to watch the cars go up though.

tom406
10-21-2004, 11:41 PM
Hey now!, Oh wait - I totally trashed the car of your dreams (and your garage) in my smart aleck post. I'm still confident in my collector car opinions, but I'll take that hit. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I'll cop to my inability to predict the future though. I distinctly remember me and the wife agreeing two kids was perfect for us, and now #3 is coming in December. I can't even predict things I have some control over.......
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Belair62
10-22-2004, 05:07 AM
I think you are all weak....the bubble has burst,where have you all been...I am offering 25k for Yenko Camaro's and Chevelles...35k for ZL1's and maybe 30k for a Yenko 427 Nova..please e-mail me to take advantage of this generous offer. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Charley.gif

gemleeus
10-22-2004, 06:19 AM
some of the nicest, honest folks i've met in this hobby are "brokers". i've seen what some go thru to get a deal finalized and it sure don't seem worth what is involved in getting everybody happy at times. and of course theres the bad side to it like with just about anything else. good luck to everybody in finding just the right car for themselves, hopefully when ya do find it you'll keep it more than a couple months.

Chris396
10-22-2004, 12:10 PM
I hope the bubble bursts soon. I am about to turn 32 so I only have 8 more good years left to enjoy life before I fall apart. I'd like to get another car before then.

olredalert
10-22-2004, 05:58 PM
--------Maybe you can stretch a year or two more out of life if you just get a fast car, Todd. Thats been my fountain of youth and I have made it to the ripe old age of 57. People tell me I look 56 though! Oh! But there are those times when Im with similarly ancient people and we talk about medicine almost as much as Supercars!!!!!........Bill S

JoeG
10-23-2004, 01:55 AM
Do we get a Mule and an acre of land with this generous offer--- http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif---

Seattle Sam
10-23-2004, 09:13 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I think you are all weak....the bubble has burst,where have you all been...I am offering 25k for Yenko Camaro's and Chevelles...35k for ZL1's and maybe 30k for a Yenko 427 Nova..please e-mail me to take advantage of this generous offer. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Charley.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Bob - send your money to me using Western Union, and I will air freight my Yanco Camaro to you and have it delivered to your door at my expense.
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif -Sam http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

Belair62
10-23-2004, 05:57 PM
I put cash in the mail..let me know when it arrives !

BigG
10-24-2004, 03:54 AM
I have two of them right now and I will not sell either below 150000 Good Luck waiting for the market to go down by NOW and save lots of money It won;t be ten years before there is any type of adjustment on the downside the restorations and the parts are what is driving these costs and they are NOT going down any time soon