442 W-30 Documentation

[Scrooge]

Hello, all:

I am currently looking at a '70 442 W-30. The car is represented to be numbers-matching, but the seller has no protect-o-plate or build sheet. All of the W-30 specific equipment looks legit from the pics I've seen so far.

I am not very familiar with GM cars as I've only dealt with (and owned) Mopars. My questions are essentially as follows:

1. How important is the protect-o-plate in terms of authentication and valuation?
2. What is this item and is it different than a build sheet?
3. Do you know of any registries where I might verify this particular car's VIN as an authentic W-30?

Like I said, I am new to these cars and simply don't want to get burned. Thanks in advance for your help!

Matt
'70 'Cuda 440-6

[Belair62]

I don't think there is an authentication service like Pontiac but if you head over to www.442.com (http://www.442.com) there may be some good info there for you on what to look for.

[442w30]

Despite my name, I'm no Olds expert. I'll try to tell you the best I can, however.

First off, why an Olds after a Mopar? And what's the deal with the one you're looking at? Colors? Tranny? Options? Bodystyle?

All W-30 were built in Lansing. However, non-W-30s were built there too, so it's a rule of thumb and nothing more.

Auto trannies had their own tranny code, which I think was OW. It was different from lesser 442s. Sticks? I think it was M21 only, which could have been shared with lesser 442s. Highest gear with TH400 was 3.23, stick 3.42.

I know stick cars had too much vacuum, so no AC for these cars, unlike TH400 cars. I also recall no power brakes, perhaps? That doesn't mean you can't have front discs - in fact, discs may have been standard with the W-30.

These things may not be a 100% solution, but they will help you figure it out. Of course, these things will be followed closely by those who want to commit fraud as well, but not everyone is smart enough for this.

I think your best bet is to go to v8buick.com and visit the Pure Stock and related rooms. There are people there who have been involved with this stuff for years. I know a few knowledgable people on the 442.com site (and realoldspower.com) but often there tends to be people who don't know what they're talking about. If you really want to play it safe, find a car with docs or get a '72 which has the engine in the VIN.

[Scrooge]

In response to 442w30:

I have always liked the cars and am not really partial to any particular brand (even though I have the 'Cuda), so I am constantly looking around for nice cars generally.

The one at which I am currently looking is a sun yellow four-speed coupe (not a post-coupe) with black interior. I like the color combo and I have not seen too many four-speeds around. I tend only to look at fully documented cars, so that is why I find the lack of a buildsheet on this one so disconcerting. I don't like to treat any of these cars as investments for profit, just as investments for fun, but there is something to be said for the role of documentation in the preservation of value.

BTW, the 442.com site initially loads, but then says that the page cannot be displayed. Is it just my computer that is causing problems?

Thanks for the help, all.

Matt
'70 'Cuda 440-6

[Ackman70]

If you provide me with some ID and casting numbers I can at least point you in the right direction. Without the build sheet there is no way to positively ID a W-30. Only educated guessing and simple deduction.

[retengw31]

Build sheets are definitely a great thing to have, but are rarely found in Lansing built Olds cars. They were supposed to be removed prior to shipping from the plant, but often got left there by a sloppy cleanup.

While the best documentation for originality, they're not the only means to verify a real car from another put together car. Checking numbers isn't always dead accurate either, but at least gives you a warm, fuzzy on the plus side. Few of these still have the original engines, so the car may actually be a real one w/o the numbers match/VIN match/date code match parts still on it.

Paperwork back to the original owner and a verification that there are no holes in its history (have seen that many times)can be just as reliable as a build sheet if thoroughly researched and verified.

I don't have a build sheet for my 68 Ramrod which I walked down the assy line in 1968, drove off, and have never parted with. I haven't pulled the gas tank as the car's never been restored so maybe there is one there. But the rest of the paperwork sure is in order. Doesn't matter, it'll never be for sale, though.

Caveat emptor, if anyone's loking to shell out big $$$ for these, the paperwork should be there and correct. They're easy to fake.

[Belair62]

Thanks Dave...if you want to send me some pics of your 68 Ram Rod and a write up we can feature it for you.

[JoeG]

Yeah Dave,--Us old guys would luv to see an original owner RAM ROD--- http://www.yenko.net/attachments/103721-R-R.jpg

[StealthBird]

I think one of the most cloned Musclecars around has to be the 70-72 W-30 cars. Buyer beware, documentation is a must on these cars. I have seen numerous clones that are advertised as "numbers matching", but what some sellers mean is that the actual components match, but not to the car. Also beware any broker or "museum" that uses phrases like "442 with W-30 package", or "442 with W-30 option". Most knowledgeable dealers advertise these rare cars as "442 W-30", plain and simple.

Just got back from the Mecum auction, and saw a clone 72 W-30 convertible, created from a base Cutlass, sell for over $25,000. Quite insane considering the 350 4-barrel under the hood, but it sold. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif There was also a numbers matching 70 W-30 4-speed, Sebring Yellow with black stripes. The car seemed complete, but had some serious body and paint related problems. From the audience, it probably looked like a 98 point car, but it really needed a lot of work.

On W-30's, aside from what was mentioned above by 442w30 up above, you have to see documentation, preferably the original owner paperwork, to verify these cars nowadays. Lucky for us Pontiac guys, we have PHS, so fake GTO's or Trans Am's are next to impossible to sell as real deals, unless an unsuspecting buyer believes everything the owner tells them, and chooses to go with their gut instinct. More often than not, you'll get burned. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

By the way, Mecum was a hornet's nest for 69 Yenko clones. I was amazed at what some sold for, even poorly done ones.

[retengw31]

Belair 62:

I'd shine shoes, do the windows, etc. etc. for anyone with a 62 bubble top. Here's a recent pic. Car is a regular in Pure Stock and F.A.S.T. Has run a best of 13.30 at 105 on Polyglas with manifolds. Drivetrain refresh in 2000, otherwise all original including paint and interior. Upcoming feature article in Musclecar Enthusiast and American Muscle Car on Speed channel.

Great site.

dave

[Belair62]

Very cool car and can't wait to see the magazine....I sold the Belair to this year to a LVCamaro on this site....ahh the pain of it all http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif but at least the car can breathe now http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[Stefano]

W30s are near & dear to my heart.

I have found original broad cast cards (look like an IBM computer card) Behind the bucket seat panel or behind the springs under the rear seat. If the car is a W30 ,the option is listed.

The W30s have a specific carb#, distributor# and heads.Check casting dates to see when the parts were made in relation to the build date of the car.

Heads have external date codes.

There are rear axle ratios which a W30 cannot have, check the code.

Original Red fender wells have distinguishing clues.

Check W30 emblem holes on original sheet metal to see if drilled or punched.

The original numbers matching "factory Doc Watson blueprinted" 455 will not authenticate a W30 as it externally looks the same(casting number) as the std. 455.

All W30s had the W25 Induction hood but not nessarily the rear spoiler, but these options were available on all 442s 70-72.

[StealthBird]

Great info by Stefano! However, I must point out that any of these parts can be put onto any 442 to create a W-30, and you'd never know it was a fake unless you have the original paperwork or broadcast sheet. That's one of the most positive things about PHS documentation for Pontiacs, it comes from a 3rd party straight from the archives, and there's no way to fake a car. Of course, re-bodies and other extremes can always be done, but that's a different topic.

With a W-30, you either get the broadcast sheet, locate the original paperwork, or take your chances. The difference in value today between a 70 442 and a 70 W-30 is night and day. Documentation, documentation, documentation... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

Also, most 70 W-30 hardtops did not come with a rear spoiler, but over the years many owners (and Cutlass/W-30 clone makers) added one. The rear spoiler was NOT available on the convertible body (442 or W-30). That's probably the single biggest boo-boo I see at car shows on ragtop 442 W-30 clones.

All in all, the W-30 cars are one of the coolest Musclecars ever made. They are really starting to get into the upper stratosphere of Musclecar collectability, and some are trading at prices that were previously reserved for Hemi and Yenko cars. Just what the doctor ordered... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[TimG]

StealthBird, I believe that I have seen the '70 W30 442 that you saw sell at the Mecum Auction. It was for sale in the parking lot at the Bloomington Gold show in St. Charles, IL. in June. I saw it late on Sunday evening after most of the cars had left, I was pumped up as I saw a for sale sign on it. When I got closer and looked at the chassis, I figured it may fall apart before the guy got it home. Pretty ratty frame. I just sold a nice clean "72 Arizona 442 yesterday.

[StealthBird]

Tim, if it was Sebring Yellow, that was the one! I was amazed how good that car looked in photos, but once you got up close, it had Bondo in the 1/4 panels, paint bubbling on the lower front fenders and trunk lid, and the doors (or fenders) were somehow bowed, creating an 1/4" gap at the beltline, but good alignment at the top of the fender and bottom of the fender. Looked as if someone squashed the fenders down from on top, causing them to bow out at the middle! Really strange... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif The driver's door handle took two hands to depress the button, and the door creaked and moaned as I opened it. Another reason never to buy a car sight unseen from an auction, or off of E-bay, without seeing it in person.

But I did see the documentation in the trunk, and I saw the original broadcast sheet showing the W-30 option, and it had manual brakes (as it should with a 4-speed W-30), but I wasn't interested in it enough to see the rest of the documents, the car really needed too much work.

[retengw31]

[ QUOTE ]
Tim, if it was Sebring Yellow, that was the one! I was amazed how good that car looked in photos, but once you got up close, it had Bondo in the 1/4 panels, paint bubbling on the lower front fenders and trunk lid, and the doors (or fenders) were somehow bowed, creating an 1/4" gap at the beltline, but good alignment at the top of the fender and bottom of the fender. Looked as if someone squashed the fenders down from on top, causing them to bow out at the middle! Really strange... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif The driver's door handle took two hands to depress the button, and the door creaked and moaned as I opened it. Another reason never to buy a car sight unseen from an auction, or off of E-bay, without seeing it in person.

But I did see the documentation in the trunk, and I saw the original broadcast sheet showing the W-30 option, and it had manual brakes (as it should with a 4-speed W-30), but I wasn't interested in it enough to see the rest of the documents, the car really needed too much work.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've seen a couple of old amateur restorations like that that are falling apart now. Probably from the last "bubble" in the collector market in the late 80's.

Assuming those are original fenders, that gap is easy to fix with an additional 1/8 inch shim under the bottom mounting bolts. If aftermarket fenders or ones siamesed to fix the lower rustout, who knows?