Nice '68 Hurst Olds on eBay [Archive]

StealthBird

10-26-2004, 10:20 PM

I think this car was discussed on some other sites too. I'm curious how much this car will fetch, being a beautiful resto, but with a non-numbers matching engine. I would think anything over $40,000 nowadays should at least be numbers matching! But I guess clone 69 Yenkos are getting $30K plus now, so who knows... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

SmallHurst

10-27-2004, 08:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I would think anything over $40,000 nowadays should at least be numbers matching!

[/ QUOTE ] I tend to disagree with on you for this particular reason (at least on H/O's). The 455 block was brand new in 1968 and 9/10ths of these blocks were ending up in land barge 98's, front drive Toronado's or hot Delta 88's. The hardest these engines ever got leaned on was when they were taking the boat to the lake. Enter the H/O! Factory rated at 390 hp and 500 ft/lbs of torque! What was the difference between the blocks of the H/O and the 98? Nothing! They reported some core shift on those blocks, but when you do not lean hard on them, this hardly rears its ugly head. If they did get leaned on, the block would often go away quickly and the dealer service replacement block came in. My car has a replacement block in it and I don't think any less of it. The '69 H/O advisor stated that there are a lot more with replacement blocks running around than with the original. Also, with only 515 '68's built, you are talking a very limited number (granted, not as rare as a ZL-1 or a Yenko) to be dolled out nationwide. That car would bring more than $40 K, but it won't. The reason, it does not have the flash and WOW factor that the '69 had. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

skierkaj

10-27-2004, 08:24 AM

I think that my dad had a Hurst Olds back in his glory years. He's long since passed, and I don't know much about the car, but I think it was white, with gold striping, and swivel buckets. Does this sound even remotely correct to any of you Olds people? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

Belair62

10-27-2004, 07:04 PM

Its over 40k now...what "flash & wow" did a 69 have that is a lot different than a 68 ???

DaJudge

10-27-2004, 07:26 PM

69's had a rear deck spoiler, forward hood scoops and a white with gold accent stripes. The 68 has a more sleeper look. Check the attached pic

Belair62

10-27-2004, 09:09 PM

OK...forgot we were talking about Hurst cars...

StealthBird

10-27-2004, 10:40 PM

SmallHurst, what I meant was that if a rare Musclecar has a service replacement block, or a non-matching numbers block, the price drops. The 68 and 69 H/O's came down the line with the 455 under their hoods before going to Demmer Engineering, so I would think that a 68 H/O with the original numbers matching block would be worth a heck of a lot more than a service replacement block version. There was a perfect 69 RAIV GTO on E-bay a couple years ago, and people sort of shunned it because it had an SR block, but I tell ya, the car was beautiful. Someone got a great deal.

Granted, this 68 H/O is also beautiful, and probably worth every penny, but if it sells for $50,000, then a totally numbers matching car will probably be $75,000. My point was that I thought the price was sort of high for this car, but I guess the H/O's and W-30's are approaching 6 figures now, so $50,000 for this H/O may be worth it.
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

I know a block is a block, but the numbers guys look for an investment grade restoration to have everything correct, especially on a car this rare. I guess as long as it's a documented 68 H/O, and has this level of restoration, it's probably worth it. My friend has owned his 69 H/O for over 20 years now, and he and I are still amazed at how high these prices are today. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

retengw31

10-27-2004, 11:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
69's had a rear deck spoiler, forward hood scoops and a white with gold accent stripes. The 68 has a more sleeper look. Check the attached pic

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I think the guys that did the appearance package on the 69 spent too much time in the J.C Whitney catalog back then. Same ones smoked a little more rope and came up with the Rallye 350. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

TimG

10-28-2004, 02:41 AM

I know that the HO's in '68 and '69 were sent to Hurst without an engine. The 455 were put in after the car left the plant. I'm not sure if they put in an engine with some type of stamp or not. I confirmed this with a local owner of a '68 yesterday. He knows quite a bit about the HO's and has three. He just purchased a '72 442 from me.
There is a nice 1970 W30 on ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=15287&item=2497566 511&rd=1

SmallHurst

10-28-2004, 03:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I think the guys that did the appearance package on the 69 spent too much time in the J.C Whitney catalog back then.

[/ QUOTE ] Thanks Dave, you really made my day. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

As far as the engines are concerned, they had the 455's installed on the line and were delivered to Demmer that way. In '68, they added the stripes, real wood to the dash, dualgate, pinstriping, and badges. In '69 they added the stripes, hood scoop, rear wing, dualgate, pinstriping, and badging.

I will try to post a couple of picture of my '69 tomorrow.

And as far as numbers correct block, I am just saying that to find one with a numbers correct block is a ultra rare occasion.

StealthBird

10-28-2004, 03:33 AM

Tim, the 68/69 H/O's were delivered to Demmer Engineering (responsible for the conversions) with the 455 already in place. For several decades, within both Musclecar magazines and books, it was reported that Demmer Engineering transplanted 455's into 442's in order to bypass the GM mandate limiting A-body cars to 400 cubic inches. There were always rumors that these 442's, destined for the Hurst/Olds conversion, actually had 455's installed at the factory. Finally, a few years ago Jack "Doc" Watson confirmed this in an episode of "American Musclecar" when he looked at the camera and stated clearly that yes, the 442's were shipped to Demmer Engineering with the 455's already installed by Oldsmobile.

Dave H. can shed some more light on this too, as he was actually there when it happened. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

Another long time myth that was finally blown apart was that the 1964 Car & Driver GTO, the one article that arguably launched the Musclecar Era, had a 389 Tri-Power. For 35 years, Jim Wangers stood by this story, so dozens of articles and books quoted him. However, in 1999, Wangers finally came clean in his "Glory Days" book and admitted that the 1964 Car & Driver GTO had a prepped 421 under the hood. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

JoeG

10-28-2004, 03:52 AM

All the different styles,powerplants, colors ,bells and whistles in the late 6o' and early 70's made for some exciting times--- http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

SmallHurst

10-28-2004, 03:56 AM

I talked with some of the line workers that were assembling the Cutlass/ 442 in '69 and they confirmed that the 455 was in the frame rails as it came down the line. In '68 and '69 the 455's were red, a sharp contrast to the engine colors of the 350's and 400's. They said they could see those units coming from a long ways away. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

GTO_DON

10-28-2004, 04:35 AM

Thats not true!! they definetly left the factory with the 455 in it. the vin number to the car is stamped on the block and was done at the factory. they were shipped in silver to demmer and thats where they did the paintwork and stripes. Its in the hurst heritage book. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

Pantera

10-28-2004, 05:20 AM

Way back then was there not some fed law that the factory had to have a vin and hidden # on the car and the motor and trans had to match? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

DaJudge

10-28-2004, 06:57 AM

My cousin had a 68 Hurst Olds and the VIN was stamped in the block and a few 69 Hurst Olds I have personally looked at had the VIN on the block as well. All Demmer did was stripe the cars, the walnut dash plaque and possibly the dual gate shifter. Gotta love the Hurst Olds http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

JoeG

10-28-2004, 07:27 AM

some info--- http://www.yenko.net/attachments/104271-hurst.jpg

StealthBird

10-28-2004, 07:35 AM

And as I mentioned above, I don't blame anyone for thinking the 455's were transplants. That's what was printed in books and magazines for the last few decades when discussing 68-69 H/O's. When more people started doing some hardcore research into Demmer (not just tallying up production figures for H/O's), they discovered that the 455's were truly installed by Oldsmobile at the plant. Doc Watson verified that on TV. My guess is that the story of the 455 transplants was originated in 1968 by Oldsmobile in order to prevent any friction with GM management for using 455's in A-bodies.

Olds Plant Manager to GM Quality Control rep : "No sir, I don't why these engines are painted red today."
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

The 69's had a bit more work done to them (cosmetically) than the 68's. The 68's had the paint job, emblems, and a W-30 OAI setup, while the 69's had the paint job, emblems, decals, unique hood scoop, rear wing, special outside mirrors, head rest stripes, and a unique air cleaner setup. I love them both. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

Belair62

10-28-2004, 07:45 AM

Are all H/O's automatics ???

GTO_DON

10-28-2004, 08:01 AM

yep!!!!!!!!!!! except the one demmer has which is the first one and the only one to have a white interior! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

rich p

10-28-2004, 08:30 AM

Just happen to have an Original #'s matching 69 for sale
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif
What a bad A** looking car

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v425/richsp/vegaspicturs012.jpg

SmallHurst

10-28-2004, 09:12 AM

The first one did not have a white interior. It did have the 4 speed and later had a 3 deuce induction setup put on it.

I will have to get a picture of the hood modification to show what was done to the stock hood. 4 drill holes, then saw the remaining piece out. 1969 technology at its finest.

Someone ask earlier about H/O's with swivel seats. That would have had to be a '73-75 era car. Still a neat piece, but just as all of the GM cars of that era, they got larger!

Chris396

10-28-2004, 12:24 PM

I don't like white cars but I love those '69 Hurst Olds.

retengw31

10-28-2004, 04:01 PM

I was in charge of the Oldsmobile side of the production engineering coordination on the 68 and 69 Hurst Olds while an assembly engineer at Olds.

All 68's and 69's were driven off the line with the 455's and driven to Demmer. We put in a 442 style console shifter (without the console) and threw the carpet in the trunk. In 69, they used a standard 4 barrel aircleaner to get the cars over there.

The 68's were painted all silver at Fisher and the Olds plant except the deck lid itself which was black. The 69's were all white in the Olds assembly process. As Rusty said, the red engines in the A bodies really did help identify the cars coming down the line, as did the black deck lids on the 68's.

All Hursts built on line were automatics, the 4 speed car was an engineering prototype. There were other engineering cars also at Olds, Demmer, and Hurst including one or more convertibles.

The vehicles had normal Olds VIN's (hand stamped on the LH side of the engine block and on the trans) and roll stamped on the frame in two places on the upper surface below the front seat area and behind the rear wheels on the drivers' side. The cars were titled "Hurst Olds", not Oldsmobiles to get around the 455 in an A body GM prohibition.

Interesting sidelight on another GM "edict" was the minimum of 10# per adv hp. On the 68 W31s, the title weight is 3250 and the advertised hp is 325 (surprise, surprise). That's not the peak hp as it was closer to 375. They spec'd it at 5600 RPM to stay within the edict, and anyone whose driven one knows there's a whole lot more all the way up past 6500. It also kept it under the 350 adv hp on the 68 442's to avoid a little more embarassment there.

GTO_DON

10-28-2004, 04:40 PM

I have a pic of the car with a white interior! I should note that demmer changed it to white himself when the car was new because he wanted it that way. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

Canucklehead

10-28-2004, 08:17 PM

So how many Hurst cars were convertables?

Belair62

10-28-2004, 08:21 PM

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

Denis

10-28-2004, 10:18 PM

Anyone notice the latest car to show up in Kevin Suydam's collection:

http://corvettes-musclecars.com/Collections/Photo%20Gallery/1968%20Hurst%20Olds%20455%20Auto%20AC/_icon.jpg (http://corvettes-musclecars.com/cgi-bin/emAlbum.cgi?c=show_thumbs;p=1968%20Hurst%20Olds%20 455%20Auto%20AC)
1968 Hurst Olds 455 Auto AC (http://corvettes-musclecars.com/cgi-bin/emAlbum.cgi?c=show_thumbs;p=1968%20Hurst%20Olds%20 455%20Auto%20AC)

Belair62

10-28-2004, 11:17 PM

How does this engine set-up differ from 70 W 30 ???

MosportGreen66

10-29-2004, 12:52 AM

I have a question about the red inner fenders of these Olds cars. Is that red oxide? If so, is it the same red oxide that is found on the bottom on all 2nd generation camaros? Thanks!

sorry to get off topic.

427TJ

10-29-2004, 02:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone notice the latest car to show up in Kevin Suydam's collection:

[/ QUOTE ]

What happened to the '68 Hurst car that got rolled (literally) after Kevin made a deal to buy it?

SmallHurst

10-29-2004, 02:25 AM

I love this, something I can answer. For the red inner fenders, they were plastic and red colored (easy answer). For the harder one, the difference between the 69 H/O motor and the 70 w 30 motor is actually minor. The 69 H/O moved the outside air induction (OAI) from under the bumper scoops (68 & 69 W30's and Ramrod w31's) to hood scoops dumping into the top of the air cleaner which was sealed to the hood (think cowl induction system with the flapper valve being on top of the air cleaner). The intake for the '69 H/O was a one year piece. The PCV was placed in the valley of the intake. All were supposed to have 'D' heads on them with 'W' & 'Z' exhaust manifolds in place. The '70 w30 motor replaced the cast iron intake with an aluminium piece, 'F' heads, and a modified OAI setup. The '69 motor was definately the precursor to the '70 w-30 motor.

Dave or Casey, I do not have the cam numbers in front of me. Could you please help me out on this one! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

SmallHurst

10-29-2004, 02:33 AM

In '68, there were a couple of 'engineering exercises' that made their way out into the world. One of them spent a great deal of time at ATCO raceway in Jersey. As for the '69 H/O convertables, 3 was the official number, but there was a story behind that. Hurst kept one car for engagements east of the 'big muddy' one on the west. The car for the west engagements was involved in an accident in New Mexico and totaled out. The powers that be had the 3rd one built to replace the totaled unit.

My friend in Iowa has one of the '69 units and they are in process of finishing up the '68 unit that was at Atco. The '68 is being finished as it was intended, BIG metalflake gold with black accents and Hurst wheels all the way around. The '68 still has the experimental 455 with a dial back distributor. The other '69 is in Cali, rotting away under a tree! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

StealthBird

10-29-2004, 02:53 AM

I believe the 70 W-30 engines were a bit more unique than the 69 H/O. The 70 W-30 used specific "F" heads (arguably the best Olds heads, except for maybe the "C" castings), special exhaust manifolds, aluminum intake, much wilder cam (328 duration in the 4-speed), and was available with the W-27 rear end.

I always wondered why Olds chose the red inner fenders for their 66-69 W-30 cars, used them on the 68 H/O, but went to black on the 69 H/O, then back to red for the 70 W-30. Maybe it they just didn't like the look of the red inners with a white/gold paint scheme?
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

Belair62

10-29-2004, 02:56 AM

Compare the 68 H/O motor with the W30...

StealthBird

10-29-2004, 03:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting sidelight on another GM "edict" was the minimum of 10# per adv hp. On the 68 W31s, the title weight is 3250 and the advertised hp is 325 (surprise, surprise). That's not the peak hp as it was closer to 375. They spec'd it at 5600 RPM to stay within the edict, and anyone whose driven one knows there's a whole lot more all the way up past 6500. It also kept it under the 350 adv hp on the 68 442's to avoid a little more embarassment there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dave, this also happened to the 67-69 Firebird 400's. Since the Firebird used the same 400 cube 350 hp engine as the GTO did, the lighter 3450 lb. Firebird wouldn't pass the 10# per advertised hp rule, so Pontiac underated the Firebird engine (on paper) to 325 hp. GM didn't buy this "fuzzy math", so Pontiac ended up installing a throttle stop tab on all 67-69 Firebird 400's to make GM happy, effectively limiting the engine to 3/4 throttle. The tab was very easy to remove. When removed, the lighter Firebird could easily outrun the GTO, a fact that road testers back then enjoyed pointing out. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

Even when the 370 hp RAIV engine made it into the 3700 lb. 1969 GTO, it was rated at 345 hp in the 3450 lb. Firebird.

It must have been fun working at GM Engineering back then! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

SmallHurst

10-29-2004, 04:15 AM

'D' heads were specific to only the '68 and '69 W30 and H/O's. These heads flowed almost as well as the 'F' heads on the 70 W30. I will refer you to the chart on head flows that my buddy has put together, MidAm Performance (http://www.midamperformance.com)

As for the '68 motor, they differed by having an a/c motor and a non-a/c motor. The a/c motor used a milder cam and 'C' casting heads while the non-air car received the 'D' heads and the more agressive cam. The '68 used the standard 442 manifold.

retengw31

10-29-2004, 03:51 PM

All those convertibles were built on line as standard 442's before the Hurst program began. They were converted afterwards to the Hurst trim and packages. Once we started building the on line groups, they were pretty well set as to what they were with no special variations other than normal Cutlass/442 options and accessories. All Hursts that rolled off the line as Hursts were hardtops.

The red fenderwells started in 1967 on the W30. I believe the 1966 W30 still had black stamped steel ones. You're exactly right about the black wells on the 69 clashing with the white/gold.

I believe the F,D, and H heads are the most pricey due to rarity (H being the rarest).As fas as performance, the exhaust divider between the center ports was flush with the exhaust manifold surface to take advantage of the new (for for 1969) chambered exhaust manifolds (W and Z) C's are popular because they had small combustion chambers and are relatively plentiful (all 1968 and 1969 455's except the few with D's).

The 70 W30 has always been the pinnacle of performance of these cars since it was the first (and only) one with the big high compression 455 and the big 328 rumpity-rump cam, the new ram air fiberglass hood, and the new aluminum intake. I believe a 68 H/O was a little lighter than the 70 W30 and the non A/C car would give them a good run for the money even with the smaller 308 cam.

SmallHurst

10-30-2004, 03:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I think the guys that did the appearance package on the 69 spent too much time in the J.C Whitney catalog back then. Same ones smoked a little more rope and came up with the Rallye 350

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Dave, stick this in your pipe! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

SmallHurst

10-30-2004, 03:24 AM

And this one....

SmallHurst

10-30-2004, 03:26 AM

And one more for the road! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

Jeff Murphy

10-30-2004, 05:13 AM

One more for the track http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SmallHurst

10-30-2004, 06:01 AM

I like it! Looks like I might have to get the CD! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif

retengw31

10-30-2004, 06:43 PM

Hmmmmmmmmmmm..........Is that a big red light in the RH lane? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

retengw31

10-30-2004, 06:45 PM

Nice. Is that corn in the background?

StealthBird

10-31-2004, 01:01 AM

Personally, I love 69 H/O's. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

In an old February 1970 issue of Hot Cars Magazine, they had a list of "The Worst Lemons from Detroit". This magazine was absolutely brutal in their analysis. They never minced words, and they REALLY didn't like wings and stripes. They bashed the laser stripes on the Torino, the rear wing and stickers on the 69 Judge, the 69 Dodge Daytona, you name it, anything with flash or flare was fair game. They even called the 70 442 fat and ugly. Not surprisingly, advertisers began to shun the magazine, and they folded.

This attachment is from their "Lemons" issue. SmallHurst, this is not for the faint of heart. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

But for me, I think the 69 H/O personified the Musclecar Era, and I love them. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

StealthBird

10-31-2004, 01:13 AM

The 69's http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

CopoCrunkus

10-31-2004, 03:57 AM

Stealthbird,
What is that white Camaro in the Pic?

StealthBird

10-31-2004, 04:15 AM

Unfortunately, it's an original 307 2-barrel car http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif It was converted WAY back in the 1980's, one piece at a time ( before the real SS396 cars became high dollar cars) just to have some fun. It has all the right parts now, looks like a 69 SS396, with a 427 under the hood. The 69 H/O is a 27,000 mile car, and the Carousel Red (Hugger Orange to the Chevy guys) is my Firebird 400.

CopoCrunkus

10-31-2004, 04:46 AM

The Second 69 I bought back in 1979 was identical to that car except for the spoiler. From Reedman, It was a true SS 396 L35 4spd with Factory Air and a Black and White Houndstooth interior. Not sure if the car is still here in NJ but would love to find it again! attached is a pic of it...sorry if it's not to clear, i have to dig up some better ones http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

StealthBird

10-31-2004, 07:56 AM

Still a great photo. I love original photos like that one. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

There's a white 69 Yenko that attends cruise nights around here. I believe it has the documentation being a Jack Douglas car (I'm sure someone on this site knows the car). We always thought that if my friend had finished his "transformation" back in the 80's, it would look like this white Yenko.

Hey, I found an original photo of what Dave H. was doing in 1968. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

Belair62

10-31-2004, 07:00 PM

That white Douglass Yenko is John P's car...SSL78 on this site...

Mr70

10-31-2004, 07:14 PM

You should say J.Platania to be more discreet. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/BelairSucks.gif

retengw31

10-31-2004, 08:45 PM

Great pic!

That was a very famous engineering test car in 1968. It was jade green with a painted willow green top. It was used to develop the "Supertuning tips" and also is the one on the Motion Markowitz ad.

I actually got a chance to drive it around the block one time and convinced me to change my order from a 68 442 convertible to my Ramrod. Rest is history.