Judges

[gtaa9]

Has anybody started a Judge registry?I would think it would be a very good way to see how many Judges are in different color combos.Plus have the owner list the engine and trans combo also.

[CopoCrunkus]

This site has a registry by region for all GTO's. GTO Registry (http://www.amesperf.com/gto_registry/welcome.html)

Also GTOAlley (http://www.gtoalley.com/index.htm) has alot of information.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[gtaa9]

I've seen the GTO registry and I've check out the GTO Alley website and many other sites.Instead of being a mixture of GTO's and Judges on a registry,is there a Judge only registry?

[yellowjudge]

The GTOAA, through John Johnson does a survey. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[442w30]

There's a guy on performanceyears.com that claims to have recorded a lot of cars, but he's careless with what he says. He says things as if they're absolutes when there's really no concrete evidence on colors and such.

From my observation, the second most popular color in 1969 is Liberty Blue.

In 1970, it seems the popular colors are Atoll Blue, Polar White, Pepper Green, Cardinal Red, and Orbit Orange, in no particular order. Mint Turquoise is most likely the rarest color.

[gtaa9]

I've heard of John Johnson but was'nt sure if he was still doing his surveys.The guy on performance years website does he know what hes talking about?What kind of research has he done?Does he have a name?

[yellowjudge]

HI, I believe John still does the survey. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[gtaa9]

I check out the performance years site and found an older post about Judge colors.If I have the right guy it seems that he has done alot of research on Judges.The only thing I noticed about the guy is his grammer when he writes.Another thing I noticed was he would let people know that the numbers that he has aren't 100% correct.As long as he is saying that the numbers aren't 100% correct,then I see nothing wrong with it.It seems that most of the people that have responded are either jealous of upset that they dont have what he has.I've been told that Pontiac never kept track of this but give the guy a break.

[442w30]

All I can say is that I've probably participated in those discussions and nowhere can I say I've felt any jealousy (about what?http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif). Sure, his "grammer" may be poor, but someone has to be a stickler for the details. The level of knowledge on this site with the COPO/etc. crowd is much more concrete than what this guy has. It's cool that he's kept track of some of these cars, but he needs to be more professional with his statistics. At least that guy in CO with the Chevelle breakdown did his thing in a scientific way and makes no bones about it being more than educated speculation.

There's enough misinformation out there. We don't need people to be spreading more old wive's tales and such.

[gtaa9]

If I upset you I'm sorry my intenion wasn't to do that.I agree that the guy needs to be more professional with his statistics.You mention that the information on COPO,Yenko cars ect are more concrete, well the information:(production #'s ect.)is already out there for these cars.Judge colors on the other hand are not, so with poor grammer not being professional or on the way he did his research I respect the guy. I'm sure that he put in alot of hours into it.

[442w30]

Naah, I'm not upset. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

But the info on COPOs and stuff is not so concrete either. How many Yenkos were built in 1969? Were Novas COPOs or engine transplants? There's a world of mystery in all cars.

[gtaa9]

My understanding is that:Yenko,Dick Harrell,Baldwin Motion,Nickey were all dealerships that transplanted the 427's and COPO cars are factory cars.Pontiac had the bobcat kit also this wasn't a factory option,it was a dealer install.I'm pretty sure that every manufactorier had something simular to yenko camaros and bobcated GTO's.

[442w30]

You're right that COPOs are factory cars. But tell me where the concrete COPO info is? There is none. The best there is is Tonawanda production figures.

[Steve_Hoog]

With over 10,000+ coupes between 69 and 70 production, it would seem a very challenging task for an individual to undertake a successful registry.

Although we may not have a GM supplied list of VIN's for Judges (that I'm aware of), thank God we have PHS.

I have been collecting PHS sheets for Judges as they turn up on the web, but I have less than 50.

[gtaa9]

I suppose nothing any more is 100% when your dealing with old car production numbers.I do have some yenko #'s I dont know how accurate they are but here go's:

1967 yenko camaro-54
1968 yenko camaro-64
1969 yenko camaro-201
1968 yenko nova 396 375hp-7
1968 yenko nova 427-30
1969 SYC nova 427-30
1970 yenko deuce-174
1971 yenko nova-52
1972 yenko nova-8
1965 yenko stinger corvair-200
1969 yenko chevelle 427-99

Like I said I dont know how accurate these numbers are,feel free to correct me if they are wrong.

[gtaa9]

Your right 10,000+ Judges to account for is a pretty big task.With these forums and other forums in other websites maybe some day we'll have the info on this subject.What you and probably many other people are doing is a good start.

[Charley Lillard]

gtaa9..please fill out your profile...

[gtaa9]

I went and profiled my information.Why do you need the information for??

[Belair62]

It's easier to communicate if we know who we are BSing with...plus we will know where to send the million dollar grand prize when we do the drawing !! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif J/K of course but thanks for filling us in...

[Steve_Hoog]

The old profile police strike again, nasty creatures they are.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/CharleySucks.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/BelairSucks.gif

[Charley Lillard]

Thanks Jeff. Welcome to the site. I think it just works out better when we know who we are talking to. I'm sure there are other reasons but I'm too tired to think of them.

[Belair62]

Steved was the reason we require it now ! Blame him. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Charley.gif

[gtaa9]

No problem I was just curious

[gtaa9]

Were there any RAlV auto 70 Judge ragtops?From my understanding there were no 69 RAlV auto Judge ragtops.I've never seen one in any mag. or in person.

[Steve_Hoog]

Jeff I cannot answer that question factually.

[hvychev]

[ QUOTE ]
1971 yenko nova-52
1972 yenko nova-8


[/ QUOTE ]

Huh?

[gtaa9]

I've been told yes and no thats why I ask.Does anybody know??

[gtaa9]

Those yenko #'s I got from a friend dont ask me how he got them because I dont have a clue.He's a big camaro and chevelle nut and he has done some research on Yenko camaros,Yenko chevelles and Yenko novas.

[sixtiesmuscle]

Yes, there were '70 Judge ragtops with auto. I'll find out how many today, and, get back with it later.

[yellowjudge]

6 Raiv auto 1970 Judges made, all 6 survived! Only 4 4spds have surfaced. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[gtaa9]

The people that I've talk to in the past have told me that there were 6 and others saying 3-4 made.Then in the mix of all this I was also told that there were none made.I'm looking forward to your response.

[gtaa9]

WOW 6 is the # thats cool pretty rare either way you slice it.Are all 6 cars in a collection?Or are some in the hands of a private owner?Thanks alot for the information Judgesragtop.

[yellowjudge]

Hi, The # is six according to McCarthy book, but I've heard unconfirmed rumor of the 7th.The autos held up much better. There were 18 total made, funny, only 4 sticks surfaced, mine(red)another red, silver & green. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[gtaa9]

Were can I acquire this book?As of now I own a 70 Judge HT RAlll 4speed Palladium Silver.Ten years ago I sold my 70 Judge HT Atoll Blue RAlll Auto.How many Judgs have you own in the past?

[Seattle Sam]

It's out of print...
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/det...nce&s=books (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0006ESYIU/qid=1100455446/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-7242288-2216102?v=glance&s=books)
Good Luck!
-Sam

[gtaa9]

Thank you very much for the info.

[gtaa9]

As I was reading through the discussion on Judge colors in the Pontiac Years forum.There is a discussion about going through PHS for the Judge colors.They said it would take alot of man hours and money to do the research.I would think every Judge owner has PHS docs.With that said made a registry and have the Judge owners put all necessary info(color combo,drivetrain ect.) on the registry.

[DaJudge]

Not every Judge has survived so to use the PHS docs that are out there would not be a 100% accurate count, although a start. I have spoken to Jim M regarding software that can covert the microfilm to a digital format. You then need to index it and make the data searcheable by option codes and VIn numbers, paint codes etc. It would be very time consuming with most of the work being done at the programming/ indexing level. Remember the sequence of options or their position on the document is not always in the same place. Paint codes and VIN's are in the same place. The OCR engine needs to be very robust and be able to do key word searches( codes ) to do this. It can be done, but remember GM owns these documents and they may not allow this to happen. Although it would take me a lot of time I would be willing to take PHS docs of Judges that are presently owned by collectors and put them into a data base. I would be willing to sign a confidentiality agreement that only color codes and option code breakdowns be released. No VIN or ownership data would ever be released and ownership data would be destroyed after the data has been processed. We could then breakdown the statistics to what has survived. Just a thought. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[gtaa9]

Being accurate on these numbers would be a problem but like you said get a database going and tally up what comes in.It would'nt be accurate but it would give a general idea on how many are out there in differant color combos.

[gtaa9]

I've been told that there was two special order colors for the 71 Judge vert.One was green and the other yellow,what was those two colors call?

[442w30]

All 17 Judge ragtops are recorded by PHS. Only one of the 17 is a special-ordered color. I've been told it's like a Camaro Rallye Green. I believe the original owner was a Florida Gators fan. Car now is in CA with the guy who used to own the white one? That car is in AZ now - the same guy who's been buying all the Hemicuda ragtops owns it.

[Steve_Hoog]

Where are the other 16 that you know of, I have a feeling 2 of them are in Tulsa?

One was delivered in Florida Gold and painted Blue before the customer took delivery and the second is Light Green, the two I've seen.

Edit: After thinking, I'm not sure that the light green one wasn't a hard top but the gold/blue is the real deal.

[yellowjudge]

HI, not sure on yellow one, but the green one belongs to a friend. Ralley green, auto on column car. I'm not big on 71s, I believe there were 2 4spds made, 1 red & 1 gold, both still around. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[gtaa9]

Interesting information,I was told about the green car and then I heard rumors about the yellow car.So the green car is the real deal and the yellow car is'nt?

[gtaa9]

How did you come up with 2 4speed verts made?

[Steve_Hoog]

This gold one your talking about must be the one in Tulsa that got painted blue, I just got off the phone with the owner and he said it's a loaded 4sp. Power windows to boot.

[442w30]

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting information,I was told about the green car and then I heard rumors about the yellow car.So the green car is the real deal and the yellow car is'nt?

[/ QUOTE ]

All the information on the 17 is listed in Tom DeMauro's GTO book.

[yellowjudge]

HI, Steve correct, Gary in OK, has the gold & the red 4spd(once in Sweden)was sold recently to big collector in Seattle. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

It's an awesome car, even with the color change. Personally I would have never done that, the gold looked much better. It sits just a few miles from here, hasn't seen the light of day in many years now. He's had some recent inquiries to sell, I suggested to him NOT to. I hope he keeps this one, it's much too nice and rare a piece to let go for a few bucks.

[gtaa9]

I dont know were I've been but it seems that I need to purchase acouple of books.

[gtaa9]

It seems that every person I've talk to is in the no on Judges.Its nice to have a website like this to ask question about your special car you have or any other car for that fact.I have appreciated all the input I've gotten from the people on this site.Thanks.But of course I probably have more questions so I'll be back.

[gtaa9]

Why was the 70 Judge 455 so rare?Was it because people did'nt know that it was available?Or was it alot more money?

[yellowjudge]

My thoughts not many people wanted it. The RAIII was a better mtr. I this case raity<desirabilty. Not a real popular engine. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[gtaa9]

The first 70 455 Judge I saw was at the GTO Nats.This one was Palladium Silver I ask the guy if it was orginal to the car and he said yes.Well of course I thought he was BS me so thats what spark my interest in doing research on Judges.Later on I found out that there were 14 HT's and 3 Verts made.

[GOAT72]

You can email John Johnson at [email protected] (mail to:[email protected]).
I believe he calls it "The Judge Registry" and he has been compiling Judge stats for at least 3 years that *I* know of. (When I first started getting "The Legend from GTOAA).

On a side note, a friend of mine Paul Bourbeau is doing a registry for '70 thru '73 455 GTOs only. (HisandHersGTO@aol).

Mac

[gtaa9]

Like I said in another post I've heard of John Johnson and his knowledge about Judges I appreciate you giving me his address I might mail him in the future.Even with out any color break down available for the Judge colors it seems that alot of people are interested in finding out this information.Its too bad that PMD did'nt keep more detail records.

[442w30]

I think it was introduced in the middle of the model year for the Judge. That's one reason.

Another is that the RAIII was standard on the Judge. The 455 really is not an improvement.

For years, we didn't know this engine was available on the Judge. It stands to reason why - apparently, no one knew in '70 either!

[gtaa9]

I suppose thats why cars are considered rare today because of that fact.Whats the difference between the 70 455HO and the 71 455HO?

[DaJudge]

A 71 455 HO has an aluminum intake, round port heads, essentially a RA IV top end. A 70 455 has iron intake, d port heads, it was basically a big car engine in a GTO. A 71 455 HO is much more desireable than a 70 455.

[Steve_Hoog]

Jeff

Of course if you’re a factory HP nut, then the 70 455 is hands down the winner. Rated at 370, the 70 455 is right there with RAIV ratings. Only topped by the 69 428 HO at 390.

The 71 455 is a mere 335 which puts it in the category of the garden variety high compression 400. Even a 69 350 HO is rated at 330 HP.

Obviously you can tweak any motor around any of these figures, this just makes for some good table top racing.

Some Figures (http://www.pontiacpower.org/engine.htm)

[gtaa9]

Big difference between the two.Even with lower compression I would pick the 71 455HO over the 70.Why did Pontiac call the 70 455 a HO motor?Either you or steved said the 70 455 was out of a big pontiac.Was there any differences with the big car 455 and the 70 455 motor?When the factory put the 455 in the 70 GTO was there any mods done to it to made it differant from the big car 455?

[Steve_Hoog]

Jeff

455 in any 70 car was basically the same, the cam was 067 in M40 and 068 MT.

So why the less HP than the 69 428 HO that used the same cams?

The head CC’s had to be more than 400 to present a streetable compression ratio and we know the heads were of less quality than say a 48. So what if they had put a 48 or even RAIV head, guess boost the HP 30 to 50 points for the added compression and flow. Then add the biggest cam, RAIV and you would get an unbelievable motor. Guessing 425 to 450 HP?

As much static as Pontiac got from the Chevrolet division about trying knocking them off the top, you think this dream motor would have helped? And don’t forget, the RAV engine was ever so close to a reality.

I must also correct myself, I believe the 63 SD 421 rated 410 HP making it top chief.

[GOAT72]

[ QUOTE ]

The 71 455 is a mere 335 which puts it in the category of the garden variety high compression 400. Even a 69 350 HO is rated at 330 HP.


[/ QUOTE ]

But Steve, in '71 GM (and others) went to net HP and all HP ratings were quoted very conservatively in order to keep the Feds off their backs.

I JUST read - in a recent issue of one of the 2 Poncho mags - that the '71 455HO was the all-time most powerful Pontiac engine and many feel it is the most desirable.

Don't make me go looking for the article!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Mac

(My signature, below, is email from an eBay scammer who tried to sell me a bogus Camaro from London with "free shipping." I sent him a fake Western union transfer receipt and complained to no end when he didn't ship the car! ) http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

You sure better not spout off a story like that and not back it up!!!!! Or they will make a little man that holds a sign saying "Mac Sucks", just like Charley's and Belair's

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Yes I know all the HP ratings were adjusted for various reasons, that is why I continually said "rated".

[gtaa9]

I pick it because of the RAlV top end round port heads ect plus driveablity.Does the 428HO have round port heads?I know the 455HO has lower compression than the 428HO but the 455HO motor is more tammer with tons of torque.

[Steve_Hoog]

428 used high compression D 72cc like 16 and 48, the heads on the 455HO are 111cc and it seems maybe they used the 1.5 geometry in the rocker area instead of the RAIV 1.65. Many people have proven the D ports can be made to flow as well as the round ports, and you would probably tell little difference at the track. I will go performance over the stigma of some hard to find heads until such time my pocket book is endless.

In contrast a few lucky people have the rarest exotic Pontiac goodies, for example Tom (TJS). A very nice person who has some of the hardest to find factory stuff, and has the means to use it well. I admire that, but he is in different league than me at this time.

So I go for the quickest my buck can buy, I won't waste time chasing 111cc round ports. There is nothing wrong with it, if that's what a person needs.The may actually be a good head to use with a blower set up.

There is just too much horsepower loss by running 111cc on a flat top with 8.1 compression, compared to the same motor with some 72cc would make 11.0. I have heard it estimated that each compression point is worth about 50 HP.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[gtaa9]

D port heads are more common than round port heads.I agree with you its all about the pocket book.As far as round port heads go there rarer and more popular with the collectors.D port heads are more commnon with the population money wise and like you said they can breathe as good or better than round port heads with alittle work.

[gtaa9]

I'm not raging on the RAlV I think its an assume motor.I read some were that in stop and go traffic it tended to over heat because of the cam it had is this true?

[Steve_Hoog]

Dunno, never had a RAIV. I drove a 69 TA one time with a IV for about a block and the only thing I heated was the tires. At the owners request much to my surprise.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[gtaa9]

Does anybody know of this problem with the RAlV over heating in traffic?I also heard that alot of the RAlV owners would change the cam out because it was to radical.The owners would put RAlll cams in for better driving.

[gtaa9]

It must be nice to have a friend let you drive his car like that.All power to you.

[yellowjudge]

This would be my thought all this saga: The round port heads were superior then, & now. That is why they were on more costly mtr. If you want better heads, I would go w/tech, & buy new alum. heads. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[DaJudge]

No RA IV cars I have owned ever over heated. I agree with Eric go aluminum if you were building a car to race. Once all the machine work and parts are purchased you are darn close to spending what you would on new aluminum heads http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

RAIV Bird from western Oklahoma

http://www.empgmc.com/race/ivbirdt.jpg

Full Size (http://www.empgmc.com/race/ivbird.jpg)

[gtaa9]

I was told that over heating story years ago I never believed or disbelieved it.I did some reading lastnight on GTO motors from the 68-72.I would pict the 71 455HO motor over all the others.My pocket book would'nt allow it I would have to settle for the D port head motors.

[gtaa9]

Is the TA a automatic or 4speed?Either way a nice car.

[Steve_Hoog]

The 69 TA I drove? It was a 4 SP, guy from Muskogee owned it named Dave Abston. He lived next door to my Grandfather at the time in 1984, I saw him at some retail store one day when he had the TA out. I didn't even know he had one, anyway he threw me the keys. He then told me to roast the tires, I was little scared to do that with some one elses car but after a little coaxing I run them up pretty good. Far as I know he may still have the car.

[gtaa9]

Are all 3 70 455HO Judge verts accounted for?If so does anybody know what color each car is?

[gtaa9]

I've noticed that the RAlV motor in the TA's are rated at 345hp and the RAlV motor in the GTO is rated at 370???What gives here???

[Steve_Hoog]

Although I've never seen it, many people talk about factory throttle blocks on the early Birds. And some blame the exhaust.

[gtaa9]

So other than that its the same motor?

[yellowjudge]

Dave sold out his collection of nice lo mileage TAs a long time ago. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[yellowjudge]

I would think the 69 RAIV bird should be top speed dog. It had the long branch manifolds & lighter body than GTO. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[gtaa9]

How much lighter were the firebirds compared to the GTO's?

[Steve_Hoog]

Dave also bought 69 and 70 RAIV Judges brand new from the dealership I work at now, the 70 is long gone best I remember. But the 69 we believe was the one driven by one Danny Bell when I was in high school. Both were dark blue 4sp and beautiful cars. The 69 is rumored sitting in some ones back yard not far from here.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

My two other round port ride experiences were both cars owned by Mitch Adams, now dead. He had a regular RAIV 69 GTO that I rode in, just unbelievably fast!!!! I would say it was the most memorable passenger seat ride I have ever taken.

The second was a RAII 68 GTO that I drove for many miles, I liked it but I couldn't tell much difference from a normal D port car. Gary now has that one locked away.

[gtaa9]

What are the quarter mile differences between the RAlll and the RAlV?

[gtaa9]

Does anybody know if all 3 70 455HO Judge verts survived?If so what color are the 3 cars?

[yellowjudge]

One red/auto one w/low miles is around. It was sold here new in Pittsburgh. It's tied up in a collection, on east coast. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[gtaa9]

The reason I ask that question was that years ago I was told that there were 2 cardinal red and 1 polar white car.Can anybody comfirm that this is accurate?

[gtaa9]

You mention in a earlier post that there were 2 71 Judge vert 4speeds made.You said this info was in Thomas DeMauro's book.Well I could'nt find that information anywere on page 123 it give the normal #'s that we all know and a trany break down.The break down is for the HT's and Verts no break down between the two???Is there a different page that this information is on??

[yellowjudge]

HI, I was told that 2 were made. I was never into the 71s, so I never researched it. I've made myself aware of the 70 Judge RAIV converts, as I have one. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[gtaa9]

When you mention that those #'s were in Thomas DeMauros book I was excited.Of couse I dont have the book as of yet I had to ask my buddys if one of them had the book.I got lucky and one of them had the book so I rush over to check it out.Thomas DeMauros book is one of the nicest books I've seen it has all the information you need about GTO's.Is your 70 vert red??I cant remember if I ask this or not but I'm going to ask anyways are all the 70 RAlV verts accounted for?

[442w30]

I don't have access to the book right now, but I don't recall anywhere reading that 2 cars were 4-speeds.

[gtaa9]

I read back to the older posts and I thought Judgerragtop told me that the info was in that book.I noticest that you suggested me to look in the book.I check it out but did'nt find any info in there about 2 71 verts being 4speeds either.It gives the trany break down but it does'nt break it down for HT or verts.

[Steve_Hoog]

Break it down or not, I can promise you they are rare. No matter if 6 or 10 were 4SP, apparently only two are known to exist. I feel priviledged just to have seen one, and this one in Tulsa is impressive.

[yellowjudge]

HI, yes my RAIV convert 70Judge is Cardinal red/white top. this is break down: 6 of 6 made autos, & 4 of 12 sticks known. There is another red 4spd, red int. no hood tach, very nice restored car. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[gtaa9]

Have you ever seen one of the 15 1971 Polar White With Black Spoiler Judges?I was honored to see one 5yrs ago in a car show in San Diego.

[gtaa9]

Thats a keeper I guess your not getting rid of that any time soon.

[442w30]

The breakdown of all the Judge ragtops are in the back appendix in the 1971 section.

[gtaa9]

Thanks for the info I appreciate it I'll have to check it out later.Just in case I dont find it what page am I looking for?

[442w30]

My book is in a different state so i can't help you. But in the back, there's stats for all the years in chrono order. Go to the 1971 section and you'll see the stats for all 17 Judges. It's easy to miss, but it's in there. Book also has color breakdown for 1971 colors - something that's never been published before.

[Steve_Hoog]

I just talked to Gary and he said the Jim Mattison had determined that there were 4 71 Ragtop Judges with 4SP by the PHS sheets he had found.

2-Red
1-Gold
1-Maybe white

And that one had been totaled shortly after selling new, possibly a red one.

Does this correspond to what is in the book you are referring to?

[DaJudge]

The breakdown for 71 Judge verts is as follows and I believe it corresponds with Tom D's book.

<ul type="square"> Exterior, Interior, Top, Trans
1.Cameo White, Ivory, white, Auto
2.Cameo White, Ivory, white, Auto
3.Quezal Gold, black, black, 4 speed
4.Cameo white, black, black, Auto
5.Starlight blk, sienna, white, Auto
6.Aztec Gold, ivory, white, 4 speed
7.Special paint, ivory, white, Auto
8.Laurentian green, ivory, white, Auto
9.Tropical lime, black, white, Auto
10.Cardinal red, black, white, Auto
11.Cardinal Red, black, black, 4 spd
12.Lucerne Blue, blue, white, Auto
13.Castillian Bronze, Sienna, Sandlewood, Auto
14.Laurentian Green, black, black, Auto
15.Tropical Lime, black, black, Auto
16.Canyon Copper, Sienna, Sandlewood, Auto
17.Aztec Gold, Sienna, Sandlewood, Auto [/list]

The special paint car was painted a color that is close to 69 Camaro Rally Green. Ordered by a Florida dealer to pay tribute to Florida's state symbol the Alligator. It is probably close to being fully restored by this time. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[gtaa9]

WOW I did'nt know that info was in this book I really have'nt taken the time to look through it yet.Do you know the color break down for the 70 vert 455HO Judges?

[Steve_Hoog]

Here is what the Gold 71 Conv 4SP has on it. Also it was delivered in NH, not Florida.

The Judge
Safe T Track
Radio PB
Console
Visor Mirror R
Belts Custom
Wheel Open Mld
Pwr Steering Var
Tilt
Mats Flr Rear
Pwr Windows
Pwr Bucket St Left
5PG Shocks R&amp;H
Lamp U/Hood
Battery HD
Hood Tach
4SP Clo Ratio
G70/14 WL
Deck Lid Control
OS mirrors Body Color
Mirror Visor L
Stg Wheel Formula
Door Edge Guards
Pwr Disk Brakes
Mats Floor Frt
Glas S/R All
Power Locks
AC
Luggage Lamp
Light Utility
Rally Gauge &amp; Clock

Sugg Retail $ 5.875.74
Date Shipped 2/5/71

Documents:
Protoco Plate
PHS
Original Dealer Invoice
Dealer Copy of Shipping Record
Build Sheet
Original MSO Title When New
Picture of Car Before Dealer Prep (I saw it, ver nice!!)

And the owner had bought replacement parts NOS for every single part of the car you could get (body and drivetrain) even though it didn't need it.

The crazy thing is he painted it light blue right after delivery.

Also saw a 71 455HO Orbit Orange GTO tonight in a old building, the body plate had - -.

[Steve_Hoog]

Kevin Suydam has/had/or got back the Red one???

http://www.azalea.net/~steved/71red.jpg

[gtaa9]

I'm taking off to my folk tomorrow for Thanksgiving so you all have a happy Thanksgiving and dont eat too much.

[yellowjudge]

Yes, plan on keeping the 70 raiv convert Judge.Just had my 70 raiv TA delivered, out of Sacramento.We have 3 little ones, all 5 &amp; under, so I hope they'll carry the pontiac "torch" http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[gtaa9]

Thats what happen to me I grew up with a dad that was into Pontiacs.The family car was a 70 GTO he bought that new in Lubbuck TX.Couple years later he bought a 72 Lemans 4door bigger for the family.When I turn 21 he gave me the GTO and I still have it too this day.

[yellowjudge]

SDS great, I really hope our 3 little ones take interest. Who knows where prices will be 20 yrs from now! I have 6 cars, 5 being raivs, so they'll be off to good start. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

Jeff

Lets see the car if you got a pic or two.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[gtaa9]

You dont mess around 5 RAlV cars thats great.You mention that you have a 70 Judge vert RAlV and a 69 TA RAlV what about the other three?

[yellowjudge]

prrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr to every1

[Steve_Hoog]

My newest project…. This car is nothing special, no Ram Air or HO that I know of. But what is cool about this car is the history to me. When I was in college back in the early 80’s, these two gear heads named Mike Frye and Mike Ward had dropped into school for one semester. I had already been there a couple of years and tried to adapt to my new social life, hence new clothes and no grease under the nails. So these two cats were out in the school parking lot wrenching their two 68 Firebirds, I was in shock. I had no clue anyone else at this school even knew what a car was. So I stroll up to them with hoods up and said man these are some sweet looking Mopars and what do they have, dual distributors? HAHA

We became best friends that semester and terrorized the streets at night, racing locals and eventually drawing the attention of a few other school students that had fast rides. Next thing you know people were bringing their hot rods back from home and it had to have been one of the most brutal street racing semesters of that school.

We all went our separate ways after that one semester. Fast forward 20 years, I ran into one of the Mike’s fathers and he still had his son’s car that hadn’t run since the 80’s.

I told him who I was and the history of that one school term, I now have one of those two Firebirds.

http://www.empgmc.com/race/68at.jpg

Full Size (http://www.empgmc.com/race/68a.jpg)

[gtaa9]

I do have pics of the car but I have to find them.The problem is that I dont have a digital camera to send pics through the computor.The GTO is a 70 Baja Gold Sandlewood inter.tan top 400 350hp auto.

[Steve_Hoog]

Eric

The one you said was in Sweeden and now in Seatle, is that the 1 red auto car?

[Steve_Hoog]

442w30

The white car you said is in AZ now, do you know if it is one of the 2 white int cars or the black int car?

[Steve_Hoog]

For those of you that know how to read one of these build sheets, check out this Gem of a Judge.

http://www.empgmc.com/race/raivbst.jpg

Full Size (http://www.empgmc.com/race/raivbs.jpg)

[Steve_Hoog]

Sean Mattingly's web sight says this car was at the 97 GTOAA Nats. Can anyone verify it is the one of 17, and where it is now?

http://www.empgmc.com/race/71whitet.jpg

Full Size (http://www.empgmc.com/race/71white.jpg)

[Steve_Hoog]

Here is the list I'm working on, like the Cuda's. Help me out.

[ QUOTE ]
Exterior, Interior, Top, Trans

1.Cameo White, Ivory, white, Auto @ In AZ (Hemi guy) last owned buy the guy in CA
2.Cameo White, Ivory, white, Auto
3. Cameo white, black, black, Auto @ May have pic at 97 GTOAA
4. Quezal Gold, black, black, 4 speed @ Gary in Tulsa painted blue
5. Aztec Gold, Sienna, Sandlewood, Auto
6.Aztec Gold, ivory, white, 4 speed
7.Special paint Camaro Rally Green, ivory, white, Auto @ In CA restored
8. Tropical Lime, black, black, Auto @ In WV
9.Tropical lime, black, white, Auto
10.Cardinal red, black, white, Auto @ In Seatle was in Sweeden
11.Cardinal Red, black, black, 4 spd @ Suydam in FL
12.Laurentian Green, black, black, Auto @ In FL restored was for sale in Hemings
13. Laurentian Green, ivory, white, Auto
14.Canyon Copper, Sienna, Sandlewood, Auto
15. Starlight blk, sienna, white, Auto
16.Lucerne Blue, blue, white, Auto
17.Castillian Bronze, Sienna, Sandlewood, Auto

The special paint car was painted a color that is close to 69 Camaro Rally Green. Ordered by a Florida dealer to pay tribute to Florida's state symbol the Alligator. It is probably close to being fully restored


[/ QUOTE ]

[CopoCrunkus]

70 Judge Convertible (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&amp;category=7244&amp;item=45071250 25&amp;rd=1) on ebay

[Steve_Hoog]

Mac

How about this one...

The Hemmings Motor Book Of Pontiacs page 135

[ QUOTE ]
By 1971 Pontiac had developed a "High Output" 455 for the GTO, which devleloped 335 gross bhp on regular gas. And that, said Wangers, "was one of the best performing street Pontiacs they ever built."

[/ QUOTE ]

[Steve_Hoog]

71 red 4sd (http://www.badgoat.net/GTO_Eastern_71_02.jpg)

Found this pic on a page from "GTO Eastern Regionals 2001"

Caption reads "71 GTO Judge Convertible - Of the 17 Judge Convertibles only 3 were 4 speeds Of the 3 4 speeds only one was red. Yes this is it!"

Hopefully the same one Suydam has now, so as not to add bogus Judges to the puzzle. Anyone recognize the state from the front plate?

[gtaa9]

This is to anybody that can answer this question:What was the most potent and strongest pontiac engine?I hear alot about the 455HO's RAlV's and 455SD's???

[yellowjudge]

Hi, I know a red 71 came out of Sweden. I thought it was the 4spd, that Kevin S. has now. Mine came out of Sweden too. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[yellowjudge]

HI, The other cars in my little collection: 2 71 TAs, 1 stick(going soon to my 1st cousin) 1969 RAIV/4spd bird convert. silver loaded! 1970 RAIV/4spd Judge hardtop, Spec. order Daytona Yellow, &amp; 70 RAIV/4spd TA White http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[yellowjudge]

Having fun driving them, is a overlooked part of the hobby. I drove my 71 TA 4.5 hrs ea. way to TA nats w/my 4 yr old. I take the car everywhere during the summer. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

That is why I asked if the one you mentioned much earlier was really an auto car, the one in Seatle? Because several people say Suydam's is the 4sp and that he still has it.

Plus I found this on CP:

[ QUOTE ]
I believe Gary Cave had the 1 of 3 71 Judge Convertible 4 speeds. I saw the car a couple of years ago at the Burdette Bros Pontiac show in Maryland. He said he had bought the car in pieces from someone overseas. It was a beautiful car. Gary apparently has quite a collection of rare Pontiacs. I hope to get by to see his collection some day.


[/ QUOTE ]

It takes a bit to sort through all the "he had", "sold there", "was in a barn", and all were red but only 1 was made.

Gary's (not the aboved mentioned Gary Cave) and Suydam's are the only two I can find that have a web presences, then a couple of others are talked about in some forums. It's not going to be as easy as the Cudas.

I went back 20 years on the HPP and didn't find a one cover story on a 71 Judge Rag, I am missing a few here and there would be my luck one of the missing ones has an artical.

[yellowjudge]

That makes sense, Gary was buying that red 71 4spd, when I bought his 70 orbitorange convt. Sweden was a haven for these convts. I assume, http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[yellowjudge]

Steve, I'm a real avid mag. collector. I have a 2/80 Car collector, has great cover story(70 Orbit orange) on Judges, has 71 white convt. in there. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

Here we go, I don't have Oct98. Do you or anyone else have this and can let me know which one it is and anything else of importance from the Mag?

[ QUOTE ]
The 71 Judge Conv. was on the cover of the 1998 Oct. issue of HPP.The were several options on the car.One of the rarest option # RPO 564,being electric seat back.When the door is opened a switch similar to the doorjamb light switch activates a solenoid in the seat and it can be folded foward instead of reaching in and pushing the button.The car also has a AM/FM radio with rear headphone jacks.It says in the magazine that the car had 7 years of on &amp; off work done to it.


[/ QUOTE ]

[Steve_Hoog]

MUSCLECAR REVIEW 1999 had a White/White feature, don't have that one eiher.

[gtaa9]

WOW you have some serious cars there.It must be rough to pick a car each week to drive.Out of all of them what is your favorite?

[Steve_Hoog]

Eric

As much as you like round port cars, some day I hope your lucky enough to see the cars that Gary in Tulsa has. It's complete insanity and I will never understand how he got them all. It astonishes me that in all the years I have been messing with these cars I have never once found a round port car in my area, I guess it's because Gary got them all. HAHA

I have found some original round port cars but the motors have been long gone. The stupidest thing I have EVER done was in 1979, when I was 16 myself and Eddie Garcia found a 71 Judge in Porter Oklahoma. We talked the guy into selling it to us because he had wrecked the right front, we bought it for $75. The sad thing is we took it home and stripped it, then dumped the body at an apartment complex here in Tulsa. The round port motor had been taken out by the guy we bought it from and put it in a Pontiac station wagon sitting in his driveway. Wonder where that wagon is now?

My friend Eddie still has most of the Judge goodies off that car, glove box: spoiler: hood: and a few other things.

Like I said, the stupidest thing I've ever done.

[Steve_Hoog]

OK...... I think my big screw up was thinking Suydam was in Florida when in fact his cars are in Seatle.

So that would leave the red auto un accounted for. And it leaves me thinking the majority of these 17 are either tucked away and hidden or they are long lost.

The guys from Classical Pontiac think both magazine articles I questioned are the 1 white/white car that is now in AZ.

[ QUOTE ]
Exterior, Interior, Top, Trans


1.Cameo White, Ivory, white, Auto @ In AZ (Hemi guy) last owned buy the guy in CA
2.Cameo White, Ivory, white, Auto
3. Cameo white, black, black, Auto @ May have pic at 97 GTOAA
4. Quezal Gold, black, black, 4 speed @ Gary in Tulsa painted blue
5. Aztec Gold, Sienna, Sandlewood, Auto
6.Aztec Gold, ivory, white, 4 speed
7.Special paint Camaro Rally Green, ivory, white, Auto @ In CA restored
8. Tropical Lime, black, black, Auto @ In WV
9.Tropical lime, black, white, Auto
10.Cardinal red, black, white, Auto
11.Cardinal Red, black, black, 4 spd @ Suydam in Seatle, was Gary Cave’s and in Sweeden
12.Laurentian Green, black, black, Auto @ In FL restored was for sale in Hemings
13. Laurentian Green, ivory, white, Auto
14.Canyon Copper, Sienna, Sandlewood, Auto
15. Starlight blk, sienna, white, Auto

16.Lucerne Blue, blue, white, Auto
17.Castillian Bronze, Sienna, Sandlewood, Auto



The special paint car was painted a color that is close to 69 Camaro Rally Green. Ordered by a Florida dealer to pay tribute to Florida's state symbol the Alligator. It is probably close to being fully restored


[/ QUOTE ]

[ANDY M]

Here is part of the MCR article from 11/99.
Hope this works.
Andy

[yellowjudge]

Steve, too bad the 71 judge prob. is a coke can. the Red auto is in collection in N.H. I know Gary has alot of cars. My collection is &amp; will stay @ 6, it can go down in # but not up. Too many car, &amp; you can never enjoy them. We have 3 children all 5 &amp; under, so time is limited. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[yellowjudge]

That's hard to pick one. I would say that I favor the birds over goats. I think 70 is best handeling, but 69 TA is a unique looking 60s musclecar. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[gtaa9]

Would you know the color break down for the 70 455HO Judge vert?The reason why I ask is that I have that information and I dont know if its correct.I was told that there were 2-Cardinal Red and 1-Polar wht car.Any one can jump in and correct me on this because I'm not sure if this info is accurate.

[gtaa9]

I own two GTO's 70 Judge RAlll 4speed HT Palladium Silver and a 70 GTO HT 400 350hp Auto Baja Gold.My dad is the orginal own of the Baja Gold car.

[yellowjudge]

HI, I know of a mint red one, believe it's an auto. These are very rare, being 3 made, but the 455 is not a real desirable mtr. The raivs would be worth alot more$, plus a much better mtr. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif

[gtaa9]

All the 70 Judge HT and verts were autos.Why did'nt the 455 Judge in 70 have 4speeds?You could get the same motor with a 4speed in a regular GTO.

[442w30]

Just because it wasn't ordered doesn't mean it wasn't offered. It's like the RAIV Judge ragtop from 1969 - no autos.

[442w30]

[ QUOTE ]
442w30

The white car you said is in AZ now, do you know if it is one of the 2 white int cars or the black int car?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's the triple white car, formerly from CA as far as I know.

[yellowjudge]

That would be correct, 69 RAIV auto judge available, none ordered, but 69 auto raiv gto convert made. No 69 raiv TA converts, but 17 bird converts made, as I have a 4spd one. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[yellowjudge]

Hi, that 71 was a nice loaded ":frame on" went to Ariz. then? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

[442w30]

If it indeed is the same car, then yes. But the owner also lives in the Dakotas, so it could be there too.

[Steve_Hoog]

Then I would say it's the one showing up in the magazines.

I wish some one would speak up on the white/black int. one I found a pic of.

And by the way, that pic of the car in the parking garage is very cool!!! Did you take it, did you buy it, when was it?

[Steve_Hoog]

Never mind, I see you just answered my question while I was posting it. Except whether you got it?

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[442w30]

No, I owe the gov 20 grand for school. It'll be years till I get a second collector car. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif My consolation is that prices will go down when the Baby Boomers start dropping like flies. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif

[yellowjudge]

I have a pretty good magazine collection, including musclecar reviews back to 1985. If anyone needs any articles or info let me know. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[supergonzo]

gtaa9 wrote:"This is to anybody that can answer this question:What was the most potent and strongest pontiac engine?I hear alot about the 455HO's RAlV's and 455SD's???"

They are all round port headed motors, which means the exhaust ports were round, instead of standard GTO D-port heads. They are all very similar, and MUCH stronger than D-port head engines.

1969
400 RAIV...Good flowing heads,10.75 compression, 308/320 duration .520 lift camshaft, 1.65 ratio rockers,screw-in studs,thick pushrods,4 bolt mains, beautiful aluminum 4 bbl intake, removeable heat crossover, Special Q-jet carb.
This was one of the musclecar era's strongest combo. Well tuned stock examples regularly run very low 13's.
--------------------------------------
1971
The 455 HO motor is basically a stroked low compression (version of the RAIV motor with a much milder 068, slightly inferior heads. This motor made tons of torque. Did the cubic inches make up for the loss of compression and camshaft?? This is a long debate, with even Pontiac themselves trying to say that it did. I think Pontiac knew the end of the muscle car era was upon them, and did the best they could, this was still a potent motor, however the cars they were installed in were getting heavier.
-----------------------------------------------
1973
The 455 Super Duty, Best flowing round port heads to date, however still low compression, still mild cam, aluminum intake now made of iron. Beefed up block, was ready to be raced. Headers helped this engine breathe tremendously as now it was only in the 73' Firebird/TA line with restrictive crossflow mufflers. Still an EASY mid-13 second performer, right off the showroom floor. A set of headers, step-up camshaft and a better intake and carb... and you had a bonefide street cleaner.
-----------------------------------------------
I think if Pontiac had made a High compression round port 455 motor in 1970, with the same attributes as the 69' RAIV engine, That would have cemented Pontiac's round port designed motors as one of the strongest ever built.
Instead we are left with debate as to which is better:
Smaller cubes and higher RPM. OR
More cubes and low compression, lower RPM.
Any one of the three, will put a smile on your face quick when you mash the pedal down.

[DaJudge]

Well said http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[JLP]

You left out the 68 1/2 RA-II which was the fore runner of the RA-IV. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif Cast intake and 1.5 rockers. Intake side (I think) did not flow like RA-IV. Jim Mino has probably the quickest PS Firebird around w/RA-II power and not RA-IV.

I am posting this just to make the controversy go on and on. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[Belair62]

Let me help you......

[ QUOTE ]
Any one of the three, will put a smile on your face quick when you mash the pedal down.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have seen that smiling face in my rear view mirror. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif Sorry Poncho guys...I had to.

[gtaa9]

Thanks for the information I appreciate it.I would think the smile on the face is a given. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[DaJudge]

You are soooo right Bob, That's why I am looking for a Chevy now. I have finally seen the light and it is good http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[442w30]

Bite your tongue! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

[CopoCrunkus]

[ QUOTE ]
Bite your tongue!

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a common occurrence when Driving a Chevy http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

BeLair is a closet Pontiac person, don't listen to that.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/BelairSucks.gif

[supergonzo]

"I have seen that smiling face in my rear view mirror."

Not unless your driving a 454 LS6 and even then, nothing would be guaranteed. I raced 4 of them at the November 13th Factory Stock race at Englishtown, every one of them saw my Pontiac RAIV Judge tailights!

One of them, the LS6 car that came in second I used to own!
It had a factory restored fresh LS6 motor.
-----------------------------------------------
Look at the Pure Stock drag results in Michigan, you see RAIV's and LS6 cars running neck and neck

[Steve_Hoog]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Belair62]

I knew I would get one of you guys !!! SuperG....Lets meet on the street...and yes I will wait a 1/2 hour for your car to stop overheating and cool down !!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif

[Charley Lillard]

We gotta get Belair a booster seat so he can see over the dash before you guys race.

[Belair62]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

[gtaa9]

Was the RAV a 400?I'm assuming it is since the RAlV is.

[JLP]

RA-V had a couple of variations, 303 &amp; 400. There were some other cid variations and supposedly had other RA designations. Depends on who at Pontiac (John Sawruk is probably the best) as to whether they were actual designations beyond RA-V. 400 is the most common talked about. The 303 was to be for Firebirds and 400 for GTO's.

[gtaa9]

I heard of the 400 RAV but not the 303 RAV thats interesting.Why the smaller motor in the firebird?

[gtaa9]

What was the HP difference between the 303 and the 400?

[Steve_Hoog]

Jeff

For starters go back and take a look at this thread:

TUNNEL PORT RA V (http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/56311/page//fpart/all/vc/1)

[gtaa9]

Thanks for the thread I check it out and found Milt Schornacks website.Interesting site very good information but I never once read about anybody mentioning the size of the RAV.All I saw was 428's and a 421 mentioned never a 400 or 303?I did check out the attachments that were posted and I saw that the RAV's HP was 565 inpressive.

[Steve_Hoog]

Don't forget about 366.

There are a couple of board members that have RAV stuff and Tom is probably one of the top in the country with effort and rarities.

Though it's not proven on paper, Sixtiesmucle has what I perceive to be one of the most desirable Pontiacs in the country. With an undocumented trip to Pontiac Engineering via Knafel Pontiac, the motor in the Tin Indian may be one of the most exclusive.

Want to really dive of in some controversy go read this thread:

1970 gto judge ram air IV (http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/56058/page//fpart/all/vc/1)
70 Judge RAIV and V continuation (http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/58091/page//fpart/all/vc/1)

[DaJudge]

The 303 RA V was developed for SCCA Trans Am series racing. This engines did not perform very well in the series and development stopped. There were some 69 Firebirds running in the series back in day the with 302 Chevys in them. I still wish the 400 RA V's were released in factory cars like Judges and TA's. Nascar tried to use a RA V in 71. David Pearson drove a 71 GTO with a V in it. His team only raced the car for a partial season they could'nt keep the engines together. Ray Nichols engineering built the cars for Pearson, it was campaigned as the number 33 and the number 17 that year. Check out the pics, it's the only GTO that I know of to ever race in Nascar. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[DaJudge]

another

[DaJudge]

last one

[Steve_Hoog]

A good article on RAV is in he May/June 2001 Pontiac Enhusiast.

[gtaa9]

The variation in size of this motor is unreal 303,366,400.I always thought the RAV was just a 400 you learn something new every day.Thanks for the info.

[gtaa9]

Like I said to steved the variation in size is unreal.You mentioned that the 303 was for raceing and the 400 was going in street cars how about the 366?Was the 366 just an experiment?

[yellowjudge]

Have you found many RAIV cars, what part of Cal. are you in? Love so.Cal, esp. San Diego http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

The Nascar Dajudge posted ran the 366 if I'm not mistaken, I had a pic of it with 366 on the hood but I can't find it yet.

[Steve_Hoog]

Eric

Did you see the post I made about the one RAIV Judge that sat in Muskogee since 1976, never moved an inch until a couple of years ago after I told a friend about it. All these years Gary and I never got serious about the car, having no clue it was a IV other than the crazy that owned it claimed it was. You know how those stories usally turn out. Well we lost out on that one.

Unfortunately the guy that got it, hacked it to pieces. The frame is in the possesion of the guy that owns the 69 BB Rag Camaro, and the motor, tranny, and HD390 rear are possibly still floating around Muskogee. Long story short, the drivetrain was stolen out of the car in 1975 while the car was in a local repair shop.

My best friend bought a RAIV intake back in the early 80's from some one down there, had to be from that motor. I suspect the motor to still be lurking around in some shed down there.

And that 71 Judge I stripped in 79 that the motor ended up in a station wagon, much to my surprise some one local read that post and knows where the wagon still is not far from here. WOW.

[gtaa9]

Apple Valley in located in so.Cal. its in the hi desert.

[gtaa9]

How many of these motors(303,366,400) did Pontiac make?

[Steve_Hoog]

Here's what I came up with about a year ago: RAV page (http://www.azalea.net/%7Esteved/rav.htm) I never did any follow ups because of a lack of help from Pontiac engineers. I found one engineer; Jonny Williams, that came in on the tail of the program but he did not offer any data or facts. Either time has erased all such info, or they still conceal it.

I saw John Sawruk at the POCI earlier this year, he had a few "secret" documents he shared on the over head. Non concerning RAV, but it's safe to say such secret documents did exist at one time concerning RAV. Just a shame we will probably never see them.

[Steve_Hoog]

Did you by any chance pick this out of the build sheet I posted:

http://www.yenko.net/attachments/58434-5ra.jpg

This air cleaner is on a portion of the RAIV GTO sheets, and the cleaner was installed on the assembly line!!!!! On 70 GTO's, it is the same as the RAIV cleaner except that it has indentions for the float adjustments on a Holley carb.

[gtaa9]

Thanks for providing me that RAV page.It seems that anything that is a mistery wheather its a certain car or engine its a big secret on production numbers.Everything is hush hush.

[gtaa9]

My answer would me no with the built sheet,I dont recall confronting you about a built sheet or getting any info from you about a built sheet.

[DaJudge]

My cars build sheet says the same thing regarding the air cleaner. All 70 Ram Air pans have the indentations for the Holley carbs. That's the easiest way to tell a 69 from a 70 lower Ram Air pan. The Nascar engine was the 366. Here's a pic of that car. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[supergonzo]

Personal Opinion as to Why 400 RAIV Pontiacs can even run with LS6 454 Chevys
Comparisons
Chevy Pontiac
Heads GREAT GOOD
Camshafts GOOD GOOD
Internal Parts GOOD GOOD
Carbs FAIR FAIR
Intake TERRIBLE EXCELLENT
Exhaust POOR GOOD
Cold fuel charge POOR GOOD
Overall weight HEAVY AVERAGE
1/4 miles times= low 13's low 13's
-------------------------------------------------
Put a good aftermarket intake,carb and headers on
That BBC...and the race is over, once the BBC can breathe
properly Chevy wins.
But set up exactly as the factory did, The RAIV Pontiac can hang and even defeat the big heavy Chevelle most of the time. Pontiac made Excellent street machines,they were not de-tuned race engines, like the HEMI Mopar's and Ford's, or even the BBC.
---------------------------------------------

RAIV Don't leave home without it

[yellowjudge]

Nope, did'nt see that one. It's a shame alot of rare cars beat, &amp; parted. But, that helps the value of the ones left. Alot yrs ago had to do w/value. I had a 69 RAIII TA, 27 k miles, but all driveline changed, due hard race life. Car parked in 1974/5, sat &amp; got rusty. I in 92, sold it to friend, after gathering most all parts. He lost interest, sold of all good parts, &amp; gave me mint int. back. But, in 94, a RAIII 69 was worth maybe 20k, not worth redoing a basket case. I also had a complete orig 69 auto TA, rusty beyond belief, parts were alot more than I pd for whole car. At that time I had just got my 69 RAIV TA, it was 100% rustfree, &amp; complete, so I kept it, &amp; over 2001/2 had frame off done. It is a true concours car, but when I got it, I got "razed" that 20k was too much! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[Chevy454]

[ QUOTE ]
Personal Opinion as to Why 400 RAIV Pontiacs can even run with LS6 454 Chevys

Look at the Pure Stock drag results in Michigan, you see RAIV's and LS6 cars running neck and neck

[/ QUOTE ]

You Poncho boys had better get your act together! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif I wanna say the quickest Pure Stock RAIV A-bodies have been in the 12.90-13.00 range...while a few of the LS6 Chevelles have gone 12.40s. The quickest Pontiacs to date are a couple of RAII 'Birds, which have gone 12.3s...I believe one of them was Jim Mino's old car.

[StealthBird]

[ QUOTE ]
You Poncho boys had better get your act together! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif I wanna say the quickest Pure Stock RAIV A-bodies have been in the 12.90-13.00 range...while a few of the LS6 Chevelles have gone 12.40s. The quickest Pontiacs to date are a couple of RAII 'Birds, which have gone 12.3s...I believe one of them was Jim Mino's old car.

[/ QUOTE ]

But Rob, you have to remember, Mino's RAII Firebirds ran mid-12's way back in the 1980's during these shootouts, when LS6 cars were running 14's, COPO's were running 13's. These RAII's are still running the same times, yet the LS6 cars and COPOS have suddenly started running low 12's and high 11's! There's also a certain W-31 Olds that was running 15.2's a few years ago, and now runs 13.0's. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif I guess if someone can explain this, they can also explain Barry Bonds gaining 50 pounds of muscle and hitting 70 home runs at age 40 without illegal drugs. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

The Mino's never invested in high dollar extrude honed stuff, or had the big bucks to use dyno facilities whenever they wanted. The Mino's cars were always dead stock, as was seen in the lengthy article in the late 1990's where they tore the RAII down. Didn't even have ported heads. Just careful assembly, careful blueprinting, and attention to detail.

So what took the Chevy guys so long to catch up?
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[supergonzo]

I agree with the above:

There is stock and there is STOCK. At this years Pure Stock Drags, 21 cars went DEEP into the 12's. Is this possible in Pure Stock condition?? I will leave this debate up to you.

And BTW a Pontiac RAII did beat a Chevy LS6 for quickest ET between the 2 cars. So what!!....different race, different day = different results. AND I'm a Pontiac Fan.

"the quickest Pure Stock RAIV A-bodies have been in the 12.90-13.00 range" Whats wrong with that??? Thats FAST..
---------------------------------------------------
Lowest ET:
Can a Pure Stock 63' Sport Fury run 12.00's@117MPH ????

[supergonzo]

"I guess if someone can explain this, they can also explain Barry Bonds gaining 50 pounds of muscle and hitting 70 home runs at age 40 without illegal drugs." http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[gtaa9]

If you think about it the 1970 GTO/Judge weighs in about the same as the 70 Chevelle give or take 100-200lbs.So you would think the Chevelle with the LS-6 would stomp the GTO with the RAlV.In a earlier post someone said that it was a even match up.The GTO with a 400 motor vs Chevelle 454 motor thats pretty impressive on the GTO's part.

[Belair62]

That RA IV must have ben a tad under rated ...

[gtaa9]

The RalV was rated at 370hp I red some were that the real hp was around 400-420hp.Is it true or false?I dont know.

[Chevy454]

Hey Mike! I was wondering if you were awake! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

The same thing that made Mino's car lethal, was the same thing that put 21 cars into the 12s at the Pure Stocks in Stanton. We just started reading the same rule book as Jim! No extrude honing or any of that other crap is allowed, either...in fact, "Certified Stock" was created to do away with all that hokey business. Blueprinting is the key, but I attribute a lot of it to getting the compression where it's *supposed* to be. Case in point: I put together an L72 exactly as the factory would have in '69, no blueprinting just slinging parts together, and it came in at 10.2:1, and went 12.70s@108+ in our Camaro...I then added 2 points of compression, and in the exact same 3800 pound Camaro it runs 12.3@113+.

I'm in full agreement the RAIV was underrated, and I'd personally love to see someone step up and show us how it's done...any takers? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[StealthBird]

Rob, you DID wake me up! And to think my psychiatrist said not to worry about the "rats" crawling on my arms. Dern LS6's... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

In the old Musclecar Review series, Dan Jensen built stone stock engines to test on a dyno. He used virgin heads, stock carbs, etc., to see how close the factory ratings were. They pulled over 400 hp from an A-body RAIV engine, then discovered that the 69 Firebird RAIV exhaust manifolds flowed another 20 hp over the A-body units due to a smoother chassis exit. I think they managed about 420 hp from the 69 Firebird RAIV configuration in stock trim.

I'm kidding with Rob and the LS6 guys. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif My point is that for the first 10 years of the stock drags, there were only a couple of cars running in the 12's, and we used to ask, "Where are the Chevys? Where are the LS6's, Yenkos, RAIV's, and W-30's?" It seemed to be all 440's and Hemis, Stage 1 Buicks, and your occasional 68 Firebird RAII or 455HO.

After a certain SS396 Nova ran 11's and all the "secrets" were disclosed in MCR, the gloves came off, and purpose-built, bend-the-rules cars started to be assembled, with a seemingly limitless budget, and they began to dominate the Pure Stocks.

In reality, all the great Musclecars ran 13's and 14's in stock trim, but I simply love watching the current Pure Stocks to see what these cars can do today. I'm glad the LS6 and the COPO's stepped up and are battling it out with the Hemis and 440+6 cars. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

There are several Pontiac people that can build a lethal RAIV setup using stock parts, but I tell ya, they don't seem to be very interested in Pure Stock! Jim Hand just wrote THE definitive book on building a Pontiac V-8 using stock parts (can be picked up at Amazon.com, Border's, or Barnes &amp; Noble), and his muffled, 9.5 to 1 compression, 4000 lb. 71 Lemans Wagon has been running 11's for years now with stock parts, RAIV cam, d-port heads, cast iron intake, etc. His engine, in a 3500 lb. Firebird, with 10.5 to 1 compression, would be deadly. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

[gtaa9]

I've heard of blueprinting but have'nt had it explain to me.What does a guy do to an engine when he blueprints it?

[Chevy454]

[ QUOTE ]
My point is that for the first 10 years of the stock drags, there were only a couple of cars running in the 12's, and we used to ask, "Where are the Chevys? Where are the LS6's, Yenkos, RAIV's, and W-30's?" It seemed to be all 440's and Hemis, Stage 1 Buicks, and your occasional 68 Firebird RAII or 455HO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now we all ask "where are all the FoMoCo cars"? Lol!! There for a bit, Stefina's '64 427/425hp Mercury Marauder was the quickest FoMoCo offering running low 13s in a 4300 pound car!

I hope some of the guys here don't confuse Pure Stock with the Stock Appearing/FAST cars that also run on Polyglass &amp; through exhaust manifolds. Whereas the Pure Stock cars are limited to the factory specs, the SA/FAST cars can go hog wild and port, hone, lighten, whatever 500+ cube engine they want, as long as it "looks stock". I might add that they're very good at it, as they're now going 11.0s at 130 mph!

gtaa9: blueprinting is basically putting tolerances &amp; specs at a certain predetermined number, which in the case of our "Pure Stock" cars are the factory specs.

[GTO_DON]

I had a 70 judge RAIV car that weighed 3856 lbs at the track and with a set of headers[open] and a curved distributer and jetting the original Q-jet ran a best time of 11,98 @ 118 mph! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif all documented at capital raceway in maryland back in 1973. The car started out in the high 14's because it just would not hook with the polyglas tires. The original owner really knew what he was doing with that car! He gave me a book with all the time slips and everything he did to it to run the way it did! I had to sell the car 5 years ago due to personal reasons but i am so sorry I did. I really wish i had it back. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Salvatore]

Sounds like a very good E.T. Don. Those Pontiacs may not rev like a Chevy.....but the torque http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif Should of kept it, but I know what you were going through back then. You are the man Don! Sam

[sixtiesmuscle]

Don, are you saying that car ran 11.98 on polyglas in 1973??

[J GLASGO]

Gonzo is right on saying that 12.9-13.1 for RA4 A bodies is right. I had planned on certifying my 69 RA4 GTO,but did not get it done until Tues before the race. This car is done to nhra spec,absolutely zero porting,and a factory camshaft,not a nhra legal cam,but a factory cam(DOG BELOW 3000 RPM),best et first time out13.11 at 111.00.This is what a nhra blueprinted 4 will go with a 4-speed.Not nearly as quick as LS-6.I think that an automatic could run 12.7,s in pure stock condition in a GTO. Mino has consistantly always ran good when the Chevs were not.Bottom line is that the Pontiacs with a RA 4 will run almost dead even with an LS-6,Which was rated 80 horsepower stronger,and had 54 cubic inches more!!!Why couldn,t Pontiac have built a 455 cid,11.1,Ram Air 4 engine in a 70 GTO????? That would have been sweet!

[Chevy454]

Hey John! Am I gonna get to see you guys at some more races this year? Missed ya at a couple events, but I know y'all were busy. Got any new projects? That '67 sure runs HARD!

[GTO_DON]

Sorry Mike,I forgot to mention that he put on 9 inch goodyear slicks. [d-5]compound! The logbook the guy kept on the car was incredible. He monitered everything from barometric pressure to the heat of the track every time he went out! Airbags in the rear springs [8lbs on the left 15lbs on the right].LAUNCHED IT AT 6000 AND SHIFTED IT AT 6400 BECAUSE HE SAID IT MADE NO MORE HORSEPOWER AFTER THAT] AND THE CAR STILL HAS THE ORIGINAL BLOCK IN IT TODAY. The car ran a miserable 1480's on the polyglas tires. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[sixtiesmuscle]

That makes sense Don. I have an idea how the Knafel Judge was built, and, the times it ran, so, an 11.98 sounded pretty stout.

Welcome to John Glasgo.

[Steve_Hoog]

Here's some cool Pontiac stuff from the Royal Pontiac Club of America's current newsletter.

Apparently some one arranged for a Royal team to go out and test some grinds in a 67 GTO, Milt oversaw and Dave and Sid Warren wrenched. I was a little surprised at the figures attained after averaging a series of runs.

http://www.azalea.net/~steved/cama.jpg
http://www.azalea.net/~steved/camb.jpg
http://www.azalea.net/~steved/camc.jpg
http://www.azalea.net/~steved/camd.jpg

[Steve_Hoog]

ANDY M sent me some cool magazines, this was in one of them:
http://www.azalea.net/~steved/crossram.jpg

[Steve_Hoog]

From Andy again:

http://www.azalea.net/~steved/dyno.jpg
http://www.azalea.net/~steved/dynob.jpg

[supergonzo]

"Bottom line is that the Pontiacs with a RA 4 will run almost dead even with an LS-6,Which was rated 80 horsepower stronger,and had 54 cubic inches more!!!Why couldn,t Pontiac have built a 455 cid,11.1,Ram Air 4 engine in a 70 GTO????? That would have been sweet"


BINGO, Thank You. John

[Steve_Hoog]

I'll tell you why, it's because the idiots at GM wouldn't let John Delorean spread his wings. GM has always held back Pontiac.

[supergonzo]

I agree Chevrolet was always considered, the favored division, this is why Pontiac had lots of difficulty, with stuff they wanted to build and cars they wanted produced. They even promoted Delorean to get him to help the other divisions, even though he was NOT very well liked.

Well nothing we can do about it now. I think it has been shown that Pontiac built some of the coolest and fastest street machines of the day. Without the 64' Pontiac GTO sneaking in under the radar, we all might have been driving 289 Mustangs,6 cyl Chevy II's or worse yet Valiants.

[Steve_Hoog]

289 http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

[StealthBird]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll tell you why, it's because the idiots at GM wouldn't let John Delorean spread his wings. GM has always held back Pontiac.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, there were several reasons that a 455 RAIV wasn't built in 1970. The engineering department had a great deal invested in the RAV platform, in both the 303 and 400 versions, and development on the 455 was stifled. The cost of RAV tooling, from the rods to the heads (especially the crank), was significant. In truth, both the engineers and DeLorean felt the 400 RAIV was enough, and they wanted to concentrate on the RAV, the just introduced 69 Trans Am, 69 Judge, the new developement of the 1970 Firebirds, and especially the 69 Grand Prix, the car DeLorean was most fond of. The 455, with standard d-port heads, steel intake, and mild cam, would be used for torque to push the GP and their full-sized cars, and an option for the GTO.

Then in early 1970, the unthinkable happened. John DeLorean was promoted to General Manager of Chevrolet. Pete McDonald took over for DeLorean, and all of the back-door methods that DeLorean employed to get things done came to an immediate halt. Red tape and new emissions requirements were already on the table for 1971, and the new upper management wondered why they would release a RAV tunnel port engine when they already had the 455 in their arsenal. The RAV project was immediately terminated. In order to offset the costs of the RAV project as well as the tooling for the RAIV, the Pontiac Engineers continued work on a low compresion version of the RAIV for 1971, using the RAIV heads and intake as a platform (this became the 455 H.O.). 1970 was a turbulent year at Pontiac. The engineers used to go directly to DeLorean for approval, but now that bond was broken, and they had to communicate with bean counters.

Sidenote : There was a mule car developed by Pontiac Engineering in late 1969. It was a 69 Firebird with a 455, RAIV heads, and oddly enough, an old 66 tri-power setup (for visual impact). This proved to be a wicked combo on the street, and it saw some use on Woodward Avenue. The engineering department called it a 455 H.O., but as we know, the actual 1970 455 H.O. put into production in 1970 was more of a traditional Pontiac 455 with a few goodies added, not the fire-breathing 455 with RAIV heads and cam that the engineering department developed for their mule car.

[Steve_Hoog]

Orange is my favorite color, and on a 69 Firebird you just can't beat it.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Mr70]

From the 1/05 issue of MCE.
They asked Marty Schorr: "Did you ever get to sneak a peak at some interesting high performance hardware or cars that never made it into production?"

MS:"The Pontiac Ram Air V is a good example,because there were plenty of Ram Air V cars running around at the Milford proving grounds,and I drove them there."

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

Oh no no no Mr. Schorr can't say that, because those cars didn't exist without PHS documentation.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Stinkin Bean-Counters http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[Canucklehead]

So can someone summerize as to what the order would be as to the best to the worst combo's of GTO's?

[442w30]

Bingo. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[StealthBird]

As in fastest to slowest in just the 1970 model year? If we're just talking 1970 GTO's, then the pecking order from highest to lowest would be RAIV, 455 H.O., 400 HO (RAIII), then the 400.

On the all time GTO list, I would say the 69 RAIV 4-speed, 70 RAIV 4-speed, 67 XS Ram Air 4-speed, 71/72 455 H.O., 66 GTO tri-power 4-speed.

As for slowest all-time Goat, the rare 67-69 GTO with the 2-barrel option would probably top the list, followed by the 74 GTO, 73 GTO 400, and the 64 GTO 389 4-barrel with the 2-speed auto. Of course, certain non-performance option combos may trump some of the above.

Worst combo would have to be a loaded 68 GTO convertible, with a/c, p/w, etc., with the 2-barrel option, 2.93 non-posi, and the rare chrome bumper nose. Make mine light yellow with a white top. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[tjs44]

Steve,that is the same 303 intake I have.I have not tried it on a 400 with spacer but the thing I DO know,it WONT fit on a 303 WITHOUT the tall tachdrive dist.I will throw it on my 455 RA V and see if it will work at all.Tom

[Steve_Hoog]

Tom

For all I know that could be a pic of your very intake, can't imagine there were many made of that. Is it possible?

[tjs44]

I think there were 5-6.I have actually seen 2 diff ones,I also had and sold a RA IV short deck X ram.Tom

[supergonzo]

StealthBird "In truth, both the engineers and DeLorean felt the 400 RAIV was enough"

Yes I have heard this story as well, and they did get unfortunately sidetracked with the RAV

[ANDY M]

The best combo GTO is the one parked in your garage.
The worst combo is the GTO parked in someone else's garage. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif
BTW, the photos are from the old Muscle Car Review.
Andy

[442w30]

I disagree that the RAIII is slower than the '70 455.

You also forgot the RAII in the equation. There are some who still believe it is faster than the RAIV.

[StealthBird]

Granted, the 1970 RAIII and 455 are close, but I believe the 455 had the edge. There weren't very many original road tests comparing the two, but from what I have:

1970 GTO Judge(RAIII), 4-speed, 3.55 posi, 14.77 @ 94.42 mph
1970 GTO (RAIII), 4-speed, 3.90 posi, 14.60 @ 99.55 mph
1970 GTO 455, Turbo 400, 13.98 @ 101.88 mph
1970 GTO 455, 4-speed, 3.31 non-posi, 15.0 @ 96.5 mph
1970 GTO 455, Turbo 400, 3.55 posi, 14.76 @ 95.94 mph

The big difference here is that all 3 of the 455 cars tested had a/c, and the 455 car that ran 15.0 even had p/w and p/dl, and was a peg-legger. The 400 RAIII's tested were pretty standard, no a/c or other weight related problems. The 14.60 turned in by the 70 RAIII above was after an entire morning of tuning (the car ran consistent high 14's until then).

Pontiac marketed the 1970 455 as a cruiser, not a 1/4 miler, but of the 455's that were tested, even with a/c and loaded up with options, still were comparable to the RAIII.

Go figure, I forgot about the 68-1/2 RAII's. How embarrassing, one of my favorite powerplants too. Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[442w30]

That's ok, I had a hard time shedding amyl nitrate. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

The 13-sec 455 test you have was probably in the 1970 Hi Performance Cars Yearbook. I wouldn't put much credence in this. What about the real world? I think the RAIII has a slight edge. It also was available with digger gears, while the 455 was not, I believe.

[StealthBird]

[ QUOTE ]
The 13-sec 455 test you have was probably in the 1970 Hi Performance Cars Yearbook. I wouldn't put much credence in this. What about the real world? I think the RAIII has a slight edge. It also was available with digger gears, while the 455 was not, I believe.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, no steep gears for the 455, but as we know, the Pontiac 455 liked the mid 3-series gears the best.

The 13 second 455 GTO time listed above was actually from a 4 way shootout from the short lived magazine called Hot Cars. This 1970 test ran a Chevelle LS6, Stage 1 GS, 442 W-30, and a 455 GTO. The magazine ripped the GTO for being fat and overated, and they were disappointed that there wasn't a 455 RAIV from Pontiac when the other makes had stepped up their powerplants for 1970. Still, the tame 455 GTO, with a/c, was only a tenth behind the W-30 442, which had manual steering, manual brakes, and a 3.91 gear.

In the real world, I still feel the 70 455 had the edge over the RAIII, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it. It would be close enough that it would come down to drivers and tuning, even lane conditions. But I feel the extra 55 cubes, and extra torque, would put a fender or two on the RAIII.

[Steve_Hoog]

I have to back StealthBird on this.

[442w30]

Most of the old road tests still show the RAIII having better times overall. And go to the Pure Stock races and you'll see the RAIII cars turning better times.

What were the times that all the cars turned in Hot Cars? I used to have an issue or two but they were not as interesting as Cars magazine.

[Steve_Hoog]

I dunno, those 55 cubes make a big difference. Not that a 400 won't run, but for raw power the 455 seems the easy winner. I say that not for what rolled off the assembly line in 1970, but what I have done at the track.

A bare stock 455 with some 350 6X heads and a medium cam, will propel most led sleds to a 12 second time. The 70 455 had a point of compression on the 6X head set up, that is just more horsepower.

[StealthBird]

Well, I guess if the old road tests don't hold much weight, I would place the validity of the Pure Stocks races FAR lower when looking at how these cars originally stacked up to each other. The mega-buck, professionally built, flyweight rotating assembly cars we see today, with scienced-out suspensions and hundreds of hours of dyno time, are a far cry from how these cars ran in their day. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

The differences between the 70 RAIII and 70 455 are marginal at best. Minor head differences (same flow, different cc's, similar compression), 068 cam (on M/T 455), same intake, etc. For my money, I'll go with the 55 extra cubes and more torque of the 455.

For pure power at the Pure Stocks, I'd go with a Studebaker.
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[tjs44]

the only rub IMHO is hooking up the 455s with 70 vintage tires.In a straight out drag race showroom stock with a man trans the RA III MAY have a advantage.Auto cars 50-50.With some suspension work and wide sticky tires I go with the 455.Tom

[Chevy454]

[ QUOTE ]
I would place the validity of the Pure Stocks races FAR lower when looking at how these cars originally stacked up to each other. The mega-buck, professionally built, flyweight rotating assembly cars we see today, with scienced-out suspensions and hundreds of hours of dyno time, are a far cry from how these cars ran in their day.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't take this the wrong way, Mike, but I gotta object! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif I was the 3rd quickest car on elimination day in Stanton this fall (12.3s @ 113+) and it's built NOTHING like you describe. Our rotating assembly is the original '69 parts except for the pistons, and my pushrods are the only non-GM stuff up top. Hours of dyno time? I wish!! Trick suspension? I wouldn't exactly call a pair of leaf spring clamps "trick"! And I just took a quick peak at this fall's results...12 of the 13 quickest cars in Stanton were "Certified Stock" cars meaning they were tore down prior to the event and thoroughly measured/inspected. The only car in the top 13 this fall that wasn't "Certified Stock"...a black '68 RAII 'Bird (I believe Mino's old car). Now, I'm not insinuating anything about that car, but the other 12 cars have been torn down &amp; documented in magazines the same as Mino's car. Believe me, when I started running our Camaro in the class in '99 I was running low 13s and said there's NO WAY any of those other cars should run quicker than that! I mean, I was in a Yenko Camaro! Needless to say, I was taught a lesson REALLY quickly! But over the years, I've learned the value of "careful assembly, careful blueprinting, and attention to detail". It actually IS important to sweat the details! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[StealthBird]

Rob, I think we missed 4th gear in this discussion! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif I wasn't ragging on any of the Pure Stock Certified guys, a lot of work went into those cars. I said that the way the cars run TODAY do not reflect how they ran back THEN.

Today, maximizing them through matching the chamber cc's, shimming valve springs, jetting the carb, ignition curve kits, leaf spring clamps, loosening up the sway bar bolts, factory appearing front shocks that are soft (90/10), filling your spare tire with water (my personal favorite) for more traction, high flow mufflers, 2.5" exhaust, X-pipes, K&amp;N filters, etc., are all ways to make an old car run faster, and shows the potential of that car, but not representative of how they ran when new. I believe all of these things are legal under Certified Stock.

Since the shortblocks aren't torn down, it makes you wonder if anyone is running aluminum connecting rods, lightweight race cranks, and lightened wrist pins? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

As for dyno time, I have read in several posts both here an on the Buick V8 site where people have said "they're hitting the dyno to test their new combo." Not exactly backyard mechanics, but if you have the means, you may as well use it! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

But (and that's a big butt) I definately ain't arguing! As you know, I am a huge fan of "stealth" technology, and I think the Pure Stocks are great! My point is that the et's and speeds being generated by the Pure Stock cars today (or Certified Stock) are not representative of what these cars ran when they were new, or heck, even what these cars ran in the Pure Stocks 5 years ago!

Could you imagine a car magazine back in 1970 taking a brand new LS6 Chevelle from Chevrolet, and running 12.40's? On stock rubber? With factory closed exhaust? Or how about explaining to another car magazine that the 1970 Oldsmobile W-31 that they tested last month, which ran impressive 14.60's, somehow managed to run 12.8's today, and embarrass a whole slew of 426 Hemi cars? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

I noticed, when reviewing the Pure Stock results, that the top two cars ran over 116 mph, and no one below them even ran 115, or 114 mph! These guys are making some serious power. But I also noticed your Yenko is 200 pounds heavier than Pete Simpson's COPO. Both cars are automatics, so how does Pete shave that much weight off a 69 Camaro? If your Yenko weighed what his car weighed, you'd be fightin' for the #1 spot!

If we should move this discussion to another thread, please let me know. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

Mike did you build your 69 bird somewhat after the mule you talked about, or is that actually it?

Another pic courtesy of Andy:

http://www.azalea.net/~steved/71white.jpg

[Steve_Hoog]

I was just going through my last mag that Andy sent and wow, coverage on the Pure Stock Drags 99. Some VERY nice cars and impressive times!!! Loved to see Paul Glasgo's Magnum 400 cranking some 12's. And then his brother does a low 13 in a 455HO, right in line with this thread I'd say.

I too don't think there is a need to compare these drags to cars off the assembly line in 1969, but the drags get top rating with me. And I cheer all that do it..

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Pantera]

If you will think back to those early days in the late 60's, that is why Joel Rosen the owner of Motion was so succesful, because he had a dyno at his disposal and very few back then did. With one he could ferret out how to do the little things to go fast.

He also got a lot of help from those in the right places at the factory. It has taken a few years but everybody has just caught up with the top guns of the past. Now days you can find a dyno in just about every town of any size.

I don't know about you but I have seen plenty of guys over the years that out "Tricked" themselves with add on speed equiptment that they had no way to properly tune and set up right.

Blueprinting a stock motor was just not done back then. It has taken all these years for the technogly to come as far forward as it has. Remember a dual line Holly was something new and most guys had been using AFB's, single line Hollys or Rochester Q-jet carbs.

Et's are bound to keep droping with the interest there is in it and the lack of new cars to interest guys of our era.

Nothing wrong with the Ricer's that are going as fast and faster than hell these days. I still miss my '85 CRX si that I used to suprise some late model muscle cars with.


Pantera

[Chevy454]

[ QUOTE ]
I wasn't ragging on any of the Pure Stock Certified guys, a lot of work went into those cars. I said that the way the cars run TODAY do not reflect how they ran back THEN.

[/ QUOTE ]
Then why didn't ya say so! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Seriously, you're absolutely right...the quicker cars aren't indicative of what I'd call "showroom stock". Now, I did take our Camaro, build the engine as Chevrolet did back in '69 (10.2:1 compression), and with only a set of spring clamps it went 12.79@108. But that's another story for another day...

I think tuning is a lost art, and has been for some time...I mean, most people take the easy way out and throw on a set of headers and a big carb on their car, and pick up 5 tenths...what they don't know is that they could play with the jetting/timing and all the other tuning stuff and very possibly make up that 5 tenths, without the headers. Now, I'm not saying headers aren't ultimately gonna make more power, but the potential these old sleds have from the factory is there, "if" you can get it out.

As for tearing down the short block, I often wonder too, but short of an oil pan with an inspection cover, I guess we'll have to take their word for it. And weight..oh, don't get me started on weight! Pete currently has a ZL-1 engine in his COPO car, thus he saved 200+ pounds...but like you said, if I could shed some pounds, I'd be in the hunt. But I really hate to do that to a 30,000 mile original car!

[gtaa9]

This is off the subject but I'll ask.Do you think Pontiac will come out with a restro look for the new GTO down the road?

[Steve_Hoog]

Some guys were talking over in Classical Pontiac about the retro Camaro that is being toyed at GM, they all agreed that it looked awesome. And they also all agreed that GM would never produced something everyone liked.

I agree with both.

[gtaa9]

Well it would be nice to see a restro GTO with the Judge option in 3-5yrs.I would buy one.

[Steve_Hoog]

Why 3 to 5 years, now!!!!

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[gtaa9]

Your right now would be good but realistically no.My reasoning is because with the new restro style of the new mustang,the new mustang looks like the 1965 mustang fastback as far as style is concerned so it took 40yrs for the mustang to look light the old style.The GTO came out as a 1964 year model and lastest to 1974.Then in 2004 40yrs since the first GTO's hit the streets the GTO is out again NO RESTO STYLE at all so I'm guessing 3-5yrs before pontiac gos to the old style again.

[GOAT72]

Last night they rebroadcast "The Last Ride" on NBC and they had a commercial for the '05. I'm not happy with the new GTO as far as retro styling goes - since there IS none, but I have to admit that steps are being taken in the right direction.
The hood scoops are totally brazen and well-designed, the split rear exhausts and bigger rear spoiler are great as well.

The 400HP engine is nothing to sneeze at, while 4 ft &amp; rr bucket seats look fantastic!

If the trend continues we may see a pretty nice-looking GTO by '07!

Mac