Would this car be considerd a COPO

[Pacecarjeff]

Wondered if this car would be considered a COPO car?

Special Ordered 1967 - 396 Indy Pace Car Camaro Convt.
This special car was produced after the race, delivered in June 67 for GM of Canada. Oshawa

Likely for a VIP.
It was ordered under special order number 80055.
This was GM of Canada's Show car account.

Produced with special paint and H-Duty equipment. http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/111/111196/folders/67366/1718102GMOC80055small.jpg

[Zedder]

I don't think so given that it was one of 10 BB's ordered at that time.

[Pacecarjeff]

So you mean Don Yenko ordered his sYc's one at a time?
Don't think "how many" means a darn thing. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif
All the Police cars and Taxi cabs were COPO ordered.
I am SURE those were not one off's.

Here is how Ed Cunneen describes a COPO car on his ZL-1 site:

"INTRODUCTION

COPO stands for Central Office Production Order. Chevrolet dealers would contact the Central Office in Michigan to request deviations from regular production options that were available for the model year. For instance, special color paint could be requested for an additional charge. Generally, options that were requested had to be in current production for other models. Chevrolet engineering then had to grant approval for these vehicle parts combinations.

These types of orders would eventually become instrumental in laying the groundwork to build factory race cars."

Seems to me that ALL the special ordered 67 IPC cars are COPOs,
Especially the 11 Canadian BB IPC's. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

[Zedder]

If you didn't want opinions, then you shouldn't have asked for them.

Good luck with your COPO

[Zedder]

And to clarify, my comment was directed more to your "must have been ordered for a VIP" comment. These cars were put on the dealer's floor for sale when the dealers bitched that they didn't get any Pace Cars. I have a friend who is the original owner of one of the BB cars (and you are right, there were 11 BB and 10 RS SB's) and he still owns it today. I owned one of the SB cars in 1979.

[Belair62]

Ask George Zapora if it's a COPO !

[Pacecarjeff]

[ QUOTE ]
If you didn't want opinions, then you shouldn't have asked for them.

Good luck with your COPO

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I am looking for some opinions.
But yours seemed like an opinion thrown out there, with no thought. - COPO cars were ordered in large quantities for official use - the number of units would not determine the status.

[ QUOTE ]
And to clarify, my comment was directed more to your "must have been ordered for a VIP" comment. These cars were put on the dealer's floor for sale when the dealers bitched that they didn't get any Pace Cars.

[/ QUOTE ]


I agree, some of the 11 IPC cars were put on the dealers floors after they complained.
Those cars seem to have fleet numbers on their trim tag.
A few others were special ordered for individuals, no fleet number - like mine.

[ QUOTE ]

I have a friend who is the original owner of one of the BB cars (and you are right, there were 11 BB and 10 RS SB's) and he still owns it today. I owned one of the SB cars in 1979.

[/ QUOTE ]

If your friend has a Canadian BB car is it registered?
That would make 3 found. he should contact the guys at:

67 Pace Car Forum (http://camaropacecars.com/groupee/forums/a/cfrm/f/8390019733)


Thanks for your comments. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif



I am really trying to figure out exactly how this car came to be made.
What process it went through. either fleet or COPO.

The info is leaning to COPO, but I want to gather as much info as I can.

A friend has a 69 Camaro with "COPO" on his Protect-O-Plate.
His is a SS-350, that his uncle ordered with a 10 bolt, and powerglide.
Not a supercar at all, just a special request.

COPO's came in many shapes and sizes, Not just big motors.

[Zedder]

I don't believe the car is registered as few have even seen it in the last 20 years. I've tried to buy it from him, but he has no interest in letting it go. It sat on Maurice Carter's show room floor for almost a year with no bites, they finally painted it Blue and it sold to my friend. I have all of the data from it and pics, but I'd have to look at them to see if it has a fleet code or not, I can't remember off hand.

Years ago, I searched all of the Canadian BB PC VINS and this was the only one still registered in Ontario. I did not try any other Provinces.

How do you know yours was "special ordered" for an individual? I assume it's the car that came out of Toronto years ago and went to a dealer in FL?

[Pacecarjeff]

No mine is not that car. That one went to Tampa. 10 Vins from mine.
That is the other Canadian BB they found.

I did also find mine in Toronto, but I bought it from the second owner.
He had said that the original owner worked for GM of Canada.

The Tampa car has a fleet code on it.
No Fleet code and a GM employee - leads me to beleive special order.

[Pacecarjeff]

Weird - Why were there 11 - 396 cars, and only 10 - 327 cars.

Maybe there were suposed to be 10 and 10.
And mine was for an actual person.

Good discussions like this bring results.

Can you find that other BB car and see if it has the fleet code on it?

[FESTIVAL78]

Quick question...no pressure. Why would someone with so much interest in Camaros not "Break" the news that all the small block Canada Cars were 327 rs only cars? I had always been naive enough to think that the knowledge was the most important tool to get to the end of any mystery..1979? I don't get it? Also..Whats the mind set for a person to be sitting on a historically significant car for 20 years and not take the time to "register" it? I think I need to hear these reasons so I can better travel the highways and byways of Camarodome. Help me out here http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[Zedder]

I assume you are talking to me??? If the RS story is news to you, you need to do your homework. It has been known for about 15 years by the general Camaro public that are into Pacecars that the Canadian SB cars were RS's. In fact, I think that Donna Crispino wrote about it in her book. As for my car, I was 17 when I bought it in 1979 and didn't know it was anything special...I have had the story on my web site for 7 years...

As for the owner of the BB car - he's owned it for 37 years and couldn't care less about numbers and registries. This is common practice for many original owners of these cars that are not on the Internet often or are just private people who don't care to share their business with the world. I know at least 6 owners of 67 Z's who do not share their info publicly.

[coke69Z11]

This discussion is getting verrrrry interesting. I realize it might be tough for some to consider allowing another class of car into the COPO fold, but Jeff is making some points on his end that seem to outweigh points on the other side. We do have some very knowledgeable members on this site that really need to chime in here, get on this horse and ride it. Giddy-up! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

[70 copo]

Well lets see. Chevrolet created the COPO system to get cars built a in a manner that allowed for production processes to be modified by the addition of cars that were engineered to an extent. I think these early IPC's cars were built COPO in 67.

Now the issue for Tom and the SYC is to determine if participation will be permitted, - say at the reunion?

Since Member's rides are already in a section for neat or historically significant cars, these 67 0-1 built COPO IPC's would add flavor and tell somemore of the facinating Chevrolet COPO story, and how Chevrolet used it early on.

Charlie--Can you bring the great #92 to the next reunion? If there ever was an example of a special "reverse engineered" car that is one of them. Chevy put significant effort into that car. Value--Priceless.... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif


Phil

[Zedder]

For the record, since I seem to be the only "other side" in this thread. Although I think they are neat cars, I'm not into COPO's, so I'm not protecting any teritory here. Quite possibly these cars may have been ordered using the COPO process, but until that is proven I doubt anyone will consider them COPO's as we commonly think of them. In fact, even if it was proven, I doubt the majority of the collector car community will view them any differently. Should Tom allow taxi cabs ordered through the COPO process to attend the reunion too?

Only Tom can speak to whether they should be allowed at the reunion, but I don't think that a 325hp Camaro would be considered a "Supercar". Again, this is just my opinion and I really don't care one way or the other. The cars that I am into aren't Supercars either by the definition used by this site, but I like them just the same http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Different strokes, for different folks I guess.

[70 copo]

Mark,

Your posts are getting a little dry. I will assume that I and others may be taking them wrong... Your comparison of a 67 0-1 IPC to a taxi Cab is a little insulting - don't you think?

As Who thinks of them? Some 427 COPO Guys years ago may have looked down on a Yenko 350 Nova... and some of the other COPO's... If it was built a COPO - then it was a COPO.

Your comment above pertaining to COPO's:

"Quite possibly these cars may have been ordered using the COPO process, but until that is proven I doubt anyone will consider them COPO's as we commonly think of them"

As who thinks of them?? Either they were built COPO by Chevrolet or not...

Please keep an open mind here.... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

Phil

[Jeff H]

I have to agree with Mark on his point of view and obviously that's what it is, a point of view or opinion. To me, the term COPO is special in that it represents the 1969 Camaros or Chevelle that were factory built with the 427 engine. That makes them a supercar and a special vehicle to me. There were a ton of other COPO vehicles built but for the most part those vehicles aren't really supercars(maybe the 68 Novas with the L78/auto). If a 67 Camaro went through a COPO process to be ordered up as a Pace Car replica, that's some pretty cool history but not a supercar in my mind. If it was done through a COPO process then it could be considered a COPO. But the term COPO is now being overused to try and hype the value of cars when the option(s) added could be pretty basic. Once again, to me a COPO is a 69 427 Camaro or Chevelle. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[Zedder]

Thanks Jeff...at least someone understands me http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Phil, the comparisson between taxi cabs and IPC's was made earlier by someone else to prove a point that all COPO's are not 427 cars as the term has come to represent by many enthusiasts. Again, I could really care less and just got into this discussion to express MY opinion, which I believe I am entitled to. I do not want to get into a pissing match with you or anyone else regarding this matter - it just doesn't mean enough to me to argue about it. Frankly, the only reason I even got involved was because it involved the Canadian cars of which I owned one and have paperwork for all of the others. That's the extent of my interest.

You have your opinion and I would never try and deny you that. It is my belief that this thread is attempting to tie some extra value to the IPC's because they are COPO's and I don't agree with that. I think they have value for what they are and that's that. But if others think differently that's fine with me. I am out of this discussion now as I have nothing further to add http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Pacecarjeff]

[ QUOTE ]
Should Tom allow taxi cabs ordered through the COPO process to attend the reunion too?

[/ QUOTE ]
I thought that it was a Supercar Reunion.
If you feel that Taxi Cabs are Supercars - let them in.

[ QUOTE ]
I have to agree with Mark on his point of view and obviously that's what it is, a point of view or opinion. To me, the term COPO is special in that it represents the 1969 Camaros or Chevelle that were factory built with the 427 engine.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think you are confused.
A Supercar is a 427 car or high performance special request.
COPO stands for "Central Office Production Order".


[ QUOTE ]
Only Tom can speak to whether they should be allowed at the reunion, but I don't think that a 325hp Camaro would be considered a "Supercar".

[/ QUOTE ]

Who ever said that I thought my 325hp car is a Supercar.
All I am saying is that these are;
Central Office Production Order - Special Events cars.
Any one who would say that they are Supercars would be mistaken.
These cars were made in fewer numbers than the Yenkos, and the cars with no fleet codes were made in fewer numbers than the ZL-1's.
The 67 IPC 0-1 Cars were the ultimate COPO cars.
Special ordered Show cars with direct quality control from Chevrolet upper management.


I guess you think that that 68 Z/28 Convertible is not a "COPO" car beacuse it only has the special folding top.

The Canadian cars with no fleet code, (mine)
appears at this point to be the only one.

I am only trying to figure out the process it went through to get made.
DON'T WORRY I WON'T SHOW UP AT YOUR REUNION.

[ QUOTE ]
But the term COPO is now being overused to try and hype the value of cars when the option(s) added could be pretty basic. Once again, to me a COPO is a 69 427 Camaro or Chevelle.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you REALLY woried about what the general public thinks?
If so then maybe the Supercars are not so "super" after all.
A new Corvette will eat any one of the "Supercars" for breakfast.

Again we are talking about a car that need special permission to be made. A car that needed to go through a production loophole to be produced. A COPO car, not a "Supercar".
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif


[ QUOTE ]
I could really care less and just got into this discussion to express MY opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]
Mark, WHY DON'T YOU CARE - You are a Camaro guy?

[Belair62]

[ QUOTE ]
the term COPO is special in that it represents the 1969 Camaros or Chevelle that were factory built with the 427 engine.

[/ QUOTE ] Thats what we really love here....the Hi Po stuff

[Keith Tedford]

I have a GM of Canada COPO Service Parts catalogue #749 1967-1974. 419 pages of part numbers and descriptions. Haven't see one thing about the 427 Camaros, Chevelles or LT1 Novas. Guess they weren't important enough to be listed. Lots of truck stuff though such as air tank moisture ejection valves etc. Thought I had hit on a gold mine until I started reading.

[hvychev]

Hey Jeff what about The Stingers, Deuces, Gibb Novas etc?

[70CitrusZ]

In the end,(imho) the only copo's that are of any extra interest due to the "copo" name are the 427 and corvette engine transplant copos or "super cars".

The term supercar is generally assigned to the 427 transplant cars, and I think the only non 427 cars that slip into that group originally are the 350/360hp nova, and perhaps surprisingly, the corvair.
As as side note, although taxi cabs and fleet pick up trucks may have been copo's who cares.
The fact is there were probably a great many copo orders for cars that are of no special interest.

Also, a pace car is cool on its own, but I would not call a 325hp 396 powered Camaro a supercar.
Its an option car like a z-28 or an ss.

Officially, some may very well have been built on a copo basis,but only to facilitate an extended production of a limited time offering, not because of any special performance option.
just my .02.
Mark.

[Jeff H]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Jeff what about The Stingers, Deuces, Gibb Novas etc?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I forgot about the LT1 Novas. The Stingers never really jumped out at me as a great performance car like the 427 and LT1's. But like I said, this is what makes the term COPO exciting to me.

[Pacecarjeff]

Geez. I am sorry I even asked.
I guess the only car that should be allowed to use the COPO term,
is a Chevelle, or Camaro with a 427 motor.

Anything else is not worthy so don't ask. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

I will just fade back into obscurity with my 1 of 1,
Central Office Production Special Order - Show car.
(COPSO so as not to upset anyone) 1967 Indy Pace Car.

1 of 1 because it is the only BB Canadian Car with no fleet code assigned to it. I was just trying to determine why it was like that. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

Sorry to have bothered you "Superduds"
Sorry, I mean - Super-Dudes http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[70 copo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hey Jeff what about The Stingers, Deuces, Gibb Novas etc?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I forgot about the LT1 Novas. The Stingers never really jumped out at me as a great performance car like the 427 and LT1's. But like I said, this is what makes the term COPO exciting to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey what about the'70 Canadian COPO Novas?? Yenkos that did not get converted.. Factory 350 LT-1 Right?


Phil http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[SamLBInj]

The word COPO doesnt really mean a whole lot unless its attached to other words such as 427 COPO Chevelle, or 427 COPO Camaro.... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[70 copo]

IMO....This thread and the discussion that it generated is now finished, as the discussion has become non-productive and risks a fight, so additional replyling here seems to be just stirring things up, and then having fun with it. Sad indeed.

This site is where the world comes to learn about COPO's.

Gives us a bad name when irrational opinions are stated here when even the most basic facts from Chevrolet do not support.

For you guys that derailed this thread and posted here saying the only real COPO's were 427 equipped - thus turining the whole thread sour:

You may be on to something that this board has missed since year 2000 and then continued to miss at each reunion...

Suggestion: You know this is kind of an obscure portion of the board, so tell you what-- why don't you 427 only COPO idea guys start a new discussion using these same thaughts the same way- you used them here in this thread(no cheating now!!!) and do it over on the main supercar discussion section of this board.

Seems if you want to argue about a topic as important as
saying a COPO was only really 427 equipped - you need to invite everyone right??

Phil http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[SamLBInj]

I think everyone should remember the name of this website, its called "The SUPERCAR Registry" and you get here by typing in "Yenko.Net"..its not called COPO World, COPO Cars, or whatever. Even Ed Cuneens "COPO Connection" only lists Supercars. Kind of nice that the real Supercar guys let us even talk about our measly Z/28's and SS's.. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[70 copo]

Sam,

Most people clearly know what this site is about, but perhaps some do not, In case you missed it, look on the front page.

"The PREMIER Supercar site"

"Dedicated to the promotion and preservation of the Chevrolet dealer built Supercars and COPO cars"

Also You should really go and visit Ed's site again in detail, You might have missed some of the detail there. Look on the active portion of left side of the site.

Phil http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[Belair62]

Kind of interesting topic...Doesn't anyone have a buildsheet from a pacecar ? Do they list COPO numbers on them like the 427 cars and others ? ??? Phils spoiler has a COPO number...what do pacecars have ?

[Jeff H]

Back to the original question he asked, PacecarJeff, what makes you think the car could have been built as a COPO order? I see the 80055 special GM account but I don't think that wouldn't require a COPO order. I see the special paint code as well and I have no idea if special paint would generate a COPO order. I would think somebody with a 67 Pacecar with original window sticker might be able to help. I see a window sticker for a 69 Z28 in Jerry's book that also lists the 1001HA Special Paint but no reference to COPO. But then the 9561 isn't mentioned as a COPO on the window sticker either. Your best bet is to contact Jim Mattison to see what his thoughts are since he was there back in the day.

[Pacecarjeff]

[ QUOTE ]
Back to the original question he asked, PacecarJeff, what makes you think the car could have been built as a COPO order? I see the 80055 special GM account but I don't think that wouldn't require a COPO order.

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, I want to thank the people who have PM'd me with very helpfull info, and support. Otherwise I would have just dropped the whole thing and moved on.

A few things lead me to believe this car is a special order.

So far, EVERY one of the Canadian Pace cars cars has a fleet code on the trim tag, except mine.

The last part of my trim tag info has a dash: 5BY-,
That is the same as EVERY single one of the known 67 Yenko 427 Cars.

Additionally, I believe that the Special duty "festival" 67 IPC's went through the COPO process for high quality control. And many if not all of the 67 Pace "dash" Cars may have gone to speed shops like Gibb or Harrell to have their engines Blueprinted for performance, as well as their suspensions, and rear ends inspected or upgraded.

If nothing else they were all pulled off the production line to be built and inspected by hand.

And most importantly, some of the very special (special order) cars may have even had 427's installed instead of the 396's.

It is well known that Yenco was "secretly" getting 427's delivered right from the factory. 425hp's as well as 410hp automatics?

Why wouldn't a GM executive be able to do that too, right along with a fleet order. Or, maybe this car was the ONE that was supposed to go to A.J.

It is just strange that there was a Canadian fleet order for 20 cars, and then 1 more made with no fleet code?

These are the questions I have.
I am not trying to intercept the Supercar or COPO name.

I just have found some really weird things about my car, and wanted some help sorting it out.

I thought that is what this site is supposed to be about.
I have owned this car for a long time. I am not trying to sell the car or inflate it's value. just want to learn as much as I can.

I think this car may have some historical significance.
If not, then that is fine, I just find this stuff very interesting.

Jeff http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[camarojoe]

[ QUOTE ]
many if not all of the 67 Pace "dash" Cars may have gone to speed shops like Gibb or Harrell to have their engines Blueprinted for performance, as well as their suspensions, and rear ends inspected or upgraded.



[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying Fred Gibb and Dick Harrell blueprinted 67 pace car engines and did suspension upgrades? If not, what shops "like" Gibb/Harrell did the upgrades? I didn't know this. A Dick Harrell prepared 67 pace car would be very cool, COPO or not.

[Belair62]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this car may have some historical significance

[/ QUOTE ]
Seems to me it already has historical significance...just being a pacecar...finding out and digging for the other stuff is what makes it even more interesting...If these cars could only talk...

[Jeff H]

I'm wondering where in paperwork you would find the COPO term mentioned. Do the 69 COPO 427 Canadian cars show the term COPO on the GM of Canada docs? I thought the "-" on the 67 Pace Car trim tags was to denote some sort of special paint(blue nose stripe). Thinking about this(and yes, this is a very informative thread) we know the 69 COPO's and the 68 COPO's exist, but has anyone ever seen a 67 Camaro COPO order? I'm sure they exist, but I can't think of any I've seen information about.

[Steve Shauger]

Jeff, I thought the dash code was speculated to be the blue nose stripe. Where did the special modified pace cars info come from (any documentation) or is this information pure speculation.

Why do you believe IPC's may have been copo'd as well as fleet coded. Is there a thread on the pace car site on this topic, because I would be interested in this subject.

[Pacecarjeff]

It was interesting to me that all the 67 Yenko 427's had the "dash" on their trim tag.
Couldn't belive that it was just a blue stripe.

Why would a 0-1 special paint car, need a second indicator to reflect a special paint accent.
Either it would have special paint or it wouldnt. The tag would't have to say it twice.

In 69 they used the -- "dash dash" to indicate the same thing. Either stripe delete, or special color.

I belive the the special -- paint code just made the paint operator look twice at the production order. kind of a double check thing. (It was special paint something - better check and see what it says.)

So if the Yenco cars all used the - in 67 to reflect the COPO engine modification, why wouldn't that mean the same thing with the Pace Cars?
None of the Yenko "dash" cars had special paint or trim.
Just Performance modifications.

At this point we don't even know for sure if the C-1 cars and the 0-1 cars were really the same color. Maybe they were different shades of white.

Chevrolet wanted to be sure there were no problems with their "Brand New Camaro", when the whole world was watching.

It only makes sense they would use all HiPo stuff for the Show cars. It is really too bad we don't have build sheets, cause that would solve the mystery.

[Steve Shauger]

67 Yenko cars were NOT copo cars. Most were SS350's with some of the later SS396 converted cars. Never heard of 67 beig copo's in anyform. Where did you uncover this info?

Here is my understanding on the pace cars:

0-1 was thought to be special prepared paint...possibly show finish. Only the festival cars have this designation.

The - in the 5 group was thought to be the non conforming blue nose stripe.

The above has not been definitively proven, but widely accepted.

The only pace cars that were specially prepped would be the the first two or three, that were used or backups to the actual pace car.

We seem to be going into the realm of stretching some facts. Please clarify your 67 Yenko info, one thing we don't want to do is spread incorrect information on this board as fact. Speculating is one thing stating it as fact is another...

[1967Z28]

Is it possible to see a picture of the cowl tag for the car in question? Neat, historical car regardless of whether it was ordered via the COPO system or not.

-Jon

[Keith Tedford]

I think that the COPO world gets a little disturbed when they see sleazy dealers, and others, hanging the COPO name on anything and everything just to make a fast buck. GM had several ways of getting cars through the system in the old days and COPO was just one of them. If we work together instead of getting all strung out, perhaps all of these methods will become clear. It's not that many years ago that people thought that I was pulling their legs when talking about our factory 427 Chevelle. It was a little frustrating but they eventually learned a little. Same with the pace cars and others such as Ray Morrison's COPO Chevy II. I bet these guys also had their share of disbelievers. Our GM of Candada microfilm printout shows the 9566AA but doesn't call it COPO as such. Unless you knew the significance of the number, it looked just like another L78 car when looking at all the option codes listed. There is still lots for us to learn.

[Pacecarjeff]

[ QUOTE ]
Is it possible to see a picture of the cowl tag for the car in question? Neat, historical car regardless of whether it was ordered via the COPO system or not.
-Jon

[/ QUOTE ]

Show me yours, I'll show you mine.
Nice try Zedder. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[Zedder]

Man, you really are a rocket scientist aren't you?

1967Z28 isn't me...it's Jon Mello, you know, one of the CRG guys that you told me I should contact to learn a little bit about '67 Camaros??? I haven't spoken to Jon in months and can assure you, he could certainly teach you a few things.

For what it's worth guys, Pacecarjeff contacted me via email and got a little nasty when I wouldn't buy into his "my car is a factory 427 car just like the Yenkos" story. Don't waste your breath trying to reason with him.

Also, to clear up some misinformation he provided in this thread, the 80055 GM Oshawa account was a Sales Promotion Account, not a "Show car" account. Over the years, this term has been used incorrectly by some at GM Vintage Services - especially in the early days when much of this information was just being figured out.

Pacecarjeff...please do not continue to contact me with your little games, I don't care about your "special car" or your "trim tag collection" http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[Keith Tedford]

Vintage Vehicle Services was sort of an evolutionary thing. Many years ago GM had a reference office (my descriptive name). You might have an engine out of heaven knows what. You gave them the casting number and/or stamped VIN numbers. They could look up what the engine application was. Then you knew where to start if you needed parts. Larry Davidson did a search on an engine in a '65 Chev SS for us. Turned out to be a late '50s 283 engine. This service was meant primarily for garages and dealerships I would assume. With all the information that was available, guys like us eventually started making requests regarding our cars and it was all free. We got the GM info on our COPO car in about 1988. At that time they didn't have information on the ZP8, ZV6, ZN1 and other Z series codes. Guys like Peter Simpson and others have since seen patterns and figured out what the codes meant. Even the GM guys didn't have all the information but did their best. Helping us was more of a service by guys, like Larry who were interested in cars, than part of their job. Without their interest, the service might not even be available to us today.

[Belair62]

It's a great service...no doubt...I just got my copy from George on a 63 Belair factory 409/425 car.. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Pacecarjeff]

Yes, you are right Jon Mello has contacted me directly.
I have sent him a picture of my tag, I am sure he knows who to send it to, he seems like a very reasonable guy.

Seems this guy Mark has had a falling out with just about everyone.
I am surprised he is still allowed to post after he was banned from the site the last time.

I know you don't care Mark, you have already stated that in your PM's to me many times. If you don't care about the research I am trying to do here, then please just don't click on this thread.

As far as the Show car account.
My paperwork is DIRECTLY from General Motors of Canada limited - not some service that is no longer around.
This now cost's around $40, (but when I did it it was only $25 or so) It came from a gentleman named George Zapora.

The only games it seems are you attacking me.
Zedder had asked for pictures and copies of all my documentation. (which he claimed that he already had)
Additionally, He wanted pictures of my trim tag to add to his photo collection.
I told him that I would not add to his photos.

I also informed him that I have been collecting parts and trim tags for many years, and sent him a picture of a few hundred Tags laying on my kitchen table. I also told him of 1 special tag I had from a crashed 1967 Z/28. Thought that would interest him, just made him mad.

I would really like to get away from the bickering.
I am willing to drop the whole thing any ways.

I would be willing to share all my data with anyone who wants it in a non-selfish way.

I just don't really care anymore either.
Besides my electricity just came back on after 6 days.
We have been living on a generator since Hurricane Wilma.

Bye. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

[Charley Lillard]

I still would like to know what makes you think the factory installed 427's in Camaro's for Yenko in 67. All I have ever seen is that Yenko did transplants. If indeed all the 67's have a dash on the tag just like your car I would think you can be assured it did not come with a 427. Does anyone have a pic of a 67 tag to post ?

[Zedder]

I just can't stand liars...here is the email exchange between this guy and me...and by the way, I don't have a trim tag photo collection and do have the GM shippers on all of the Canadian IPC's, so why would I want yours? I offered to compare your tag to the blue car's tag pic that I have that is in non-digital format to help you out. Some thanks I get...frankly, I wish I had never even commented in this thread in the first place, but I honestly didn't think you had an agenda when you posted...

From Jeff...

"I saw you said you had all the paperwork on the Canadian cars.

Can you tell me if all the BB canadian cars had the F41 package, or just
mine.
Can I see the paperwork from those cars - is mine different? #N236970
My car seems to be weird for some reason, and may have very well come
with a 427 installed after all.

Looks like mine was special ordered and we don't know why.
It may have gone through the same clandestine process as the 67 Yenko cars.
My trim tag has some other different stuff,
my rear end is hardened heat treated,
and has a lot of off-road front suspension parts.

Mark,
Not looking to start a fight - just want to document this potentially
significant car.

Jeff Ashen

I own a 68 Z/28 also - so I can't be all bad. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif"

[Zedder]

My reply...

"Jeff,

I don't know who is feeding you this info or whether you are just wishful
thinking, but you really need to read some of the books and articles written
on '67 Pace Cars. ALL of the Canadian cars were IDENTICAL (big blocks and
small blocks). They were ordered through 80055 which is the GM Oshawa sales
promotion account, not the "show car" account as some GM vintage services
people in the past have mistakenly identified it to be. I've owned numerous
'67 Camaros that were ordered through 80055. All BB IPC's have F41 and all
have identical options. Your car was the second BB car of the 11 and is no
different from the rest.

Some have fleet codes, some do not - that is nothing unusual. In fact, I
have pics of a number of real trim tags that are missing option info that
can be documented via other means. All '67 Z's were 4 speeds, but I have
seen a number of them who have trim tags that do not show the 4 speed
transmission. Frankly, I wouldn't put too much effort in trying to
determine if you car was special...others have researched this topic to
death. Send me a pic of your trim tag and I'll tell you how it differs from
the others that I have pics of.

Mark"

[Zedder]

His response...

"Seems your very closed minded about this whole thing, so I won't bother
you again.

You would shake in your boots if you knew who was feeding me this stuff.
At this point I have promised to keep their identities confidential.
Very High Profile!!!

There are a few other things that some of your buddies have PM'd about
which also points to VERY special order.
Additionally, the Paperwork that I got from GM,. way before you were
investigating this stuff.
Clearly reads: GM of Canada Show Car Account.
It is not from a vintage service company, but from GM themselves.

Also, I have seen the trim tag from the Blue car -
A member from our group had pictures of it, and knows where the car is.
It is not for sale.
It has a fleet code. does not have to other markings as mine, so the
cars we not Identical at all.
well maybe 20 of them were - mine is different for sure.

Maybe you have read Donna C.'s book, good for you. I have known her
personally for a many years.
I have read every book, and I still own one of the cars too.

There are 2 other things on my tag which are different than all the
other tags.
You should sit back and watch, because you are going to be very
surprised how this turns out.

But since you have looked at only 1 of the cars, that must make you an
Canadian Pace Car expert.
Which ones of the BB cars that have you seen don't have a fleet codes? -
There are just not any others.
maybe it was a mistake, but the evidence is pointing to Special. (I
would like to see your evidence otherwise)

So we can all speculate back and forth, but hard core evidence is going
to prove it.

Do you even know what the process would have been to make a 67 Yenko 427?
You should start there.

I have owned this car for many years, and have 5 classic Chevrolets in
my collection.
I am not selling this ever. - Someone contacted me from GM - Looking and
asking weird stuff about this car.
That's why I started asking questions.
Don't really care about the other 0-1 cars, but to keep everyone
interested, I am including them also.
So good luck,

Send the pictures of the trim tags to the Pace Car Guys or CRG
until you do that, no one will believe you.
Jeff"

[Zedder]

I didn't respond to his message, so then he sent this last message...
"mark,

Oh yea, you said you have pictures of some trim tags. Pictures???

I HAVE actual trim tags - been collecting them for years.

What to see some weird stuff - I'm your guy.
Lets see what you got - I know I have much more.
I may even have 1 tag from a crashed 67 Z/28 in there.

but only about 20% of these are Camaros"

So, now that you have entertained us all, please go away and bother someone else. Thanks http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

[Pacecarjeff]

The funniest part is I did send most of that, but he felt compelled to add in sentences that I didn't write.
Maybe makes his storry look better.
You are a weirdo Mark Kane - Get a life, Oh Yea and a Job.
Thanks for posting my phone number, I can tell you are very discrete.
You Jerk.

[Zedder]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

I'm happy to forward his messages to anyone who would like to read them and see there was nothing added. Now crawl back in your hole http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Steve Shauger]

This thread is going down hill quickly.

[Belair62]

Guys I removed the phone number...lets keep this thing civil or take it offline...

[70 copo]

Thread went sour back on page 3. Really makes us look bad as a group.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

What was the point of this whole thing anyway?

[Pacecarjeff]

[ QUOTE ]
What was the point of this whole thing anyway?

[/ QUOTE ]
I really can't even remember anymore.http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
I was just looking for more information about how COPO cars were made.
Since my car was the only one with no fleet code.
Thought it might mean something. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

But after further investigation.
I have the regular F41 anti-sway bar.
My rearend gear is the standard 3:07 Posi, and my 406 block is correct, and dated properly.
I belive that the dash is more than just the blue nose stripe,
I truly think it still means Special something.
However, it meant different things at different times.

The dash is Special something - but no one knows for sure.
I think it reminded the production line guy to look at the paperwork to be sure of the special order.

On 8 of the 67 Yenkos it meant big engines.
On 6 cyl cars it meant power antenna, cup holder, or, maybe Zora Duntov's friend,
Harley Earl's mistress, or something equally weird.

On Pace Cars it likely just meant:
Be careful, and put this heap together better than you did
that last piece of junk we are pushing down the line.

Can't believe the Special paint had to be noted twice on the cowl tag.

so in reality, I fould NOTHING. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

But that is just nothing YET - no reason to stop looking. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[SamLBInj]

Maybe the guy making the tags was drunk and screwed it up http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

[PeteLeathersac]

Although I like the drunk idea (which may be the actual reason?) another thought is maybe the special paint was noted twice as in upper/lower and the guy on the tag machine was maybe used to the upper/lower thing? ~ Pete

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

As far as I know, the paint code is always listed 2x - once for top, once again for the bottom. So, the use of two dashes is nothing significant.

[Pacecarjeff]

The paint code on the festival Pace cars is 0-1. (special white, w/white top)
The dash is at the end of the 5th option group.
5BY-

It was long believed this was a special added blue stripe.
I don't think so. No reason for 2 paint remarks on the tag.

[PeteLeathersac]

So what motor is in the car....the original or not? . And if the original, what suffix is it? . Weren't you asking above if this was maybe a 427 conversion....and what Tach is in the car? ~ Pete

[Steve Shauger]

Jeff, which dash are you refering to??? The one in the 5 group or some other location on the tag. Non festival cars only had two unique code on the tag, the fleet code (for ordering) and the dash in the 5 group, which we speculate may means blue nose stripe.

Non festival cars used the standard paint code designation of C-1, which designated white paint and white conv top( BTW the dash in the paint designation is on every 67 built. Nothing special, no reason to theorize ).

We also know all (festival and non festival)pace cars had a dash in the 5 group, and also had blue nose stripe.
We also know that if you ordered cars equipped identical (interior and exterior) to pace cars without the 5 group dash you received a black nose stripe. A good example was Brad McAdams L78 convertible that was thought to be a pace cars for years because it had a blue nose stripe without the 5group dash. Well when it was being restored, under the blue nose stripe they found the original black stripe(later found the originating dealer painted it to make it identical to a pace car for the customer). To my knowledge (as well as others including the ICC pace car registry)there has never been an example of a white 67 camaro with a blue nose stripe, except those with the 5group dash and of course on a pace car.

Regarding 67 Yenkos, NONE came from the factory with 427/big engines period. As far as the dash code on 67 Yenkos theory, never seen one with, it doubt it signified anything other than paint instructions.

If you are going to throw up these theories, it would be nice to know who is behind them, including facts and support documentation.

Regarding the possibility of your car having a 427 highly unlikely, and if it did it would have been a low horse. Remember no solid lifter was teamed with an auto until 1968 and that was through the COPO process for the 50 Gibb Novas cars.

[SamLBInj]

that dash at the bottom wouldnt mean for the car to get the pace car stickers would it?

[Kurt S]

I was gone for a bit. To try to answer some of the questions:

On the 67 IPC documentation that I know of, nothing indicates that the IPC's were ordered as COPO's. The 'fleet code' does appear on the paperwork, which shows the cars were ordered thru the Central Office / Fleet & Special Order office as some type of special order. But no COPO number or other COPO indicator appears in the documentation.

There were actually 12 L35 Canadian IPC's. And at least three (including Jeff's) of those cars do not have a fleet code on the tag.

80055 is basically the dealer code for the Oshawa zone office. It does appear on other non-IPC cars. I'm not sure what GM of Canada says 80055 means now, but I recall seeing the definition vary.

All cars were built on the assembly line. There was no alternative off-line assembly process nor the room to do such.

I'm not a 67 Yenko expert, but none came from the factory as a 427. 69 was the first year for that.

I agree with Jeff, the 5 group dash probably just means 'special order - see instructions'. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Normally seems to refer to paint. Has to be Fisher Body related since Chevy never looked at the tag.

Hope this helps...

[70 copo]

Kurt,

Chevy had to look at the trim tag at the Body bank...

Here is how I understand the activities in the body bank outside of the Fisher door at Chevy:

When A body entered from Fisher to chevy, A worker entered the fisher body number from the cowl tag into the Chevy final assembly computer. This data corresponded to the order number and as specified by the dealer order form. The Chevy final assembly process computer then specified the "parts pick" of the components needed to build the car as ordered. This info also resulted in the printing of the Broadcast Copy essential for body lock and assignment of the VIN number.

Right??

Phil http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Steve Shauger]

John Z. wrote a great article on the camaro/norwood assembly process which is located on the CRG website.

[Canucklehead]

Ok is it just me or how come no one has ask the obvious "real" question here?...............Just what does PeteLeathersac stand for?..some moniker his wife gave him????? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif, things to make you go HMMMMMMMM http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Belair62]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[JoeG]

I thought it was something he kept his marbles in---

[Kurt S]

Phil,
Yes, that is correct. As the car entered the Chevy side, one guy looked at the body # to link the car to the VIN and to the order info and then generate the broadcast sheets.
But otherwise Chevy pretty much ignored the tag. It had no value to them.
[ QUOTE ]
This info also resulted in the printing of the Broadcast Copy essential for body lock and assignment of the VIN number.

[/ QUOTE ]
One clarification: VIN was assigned as the car right as it came to the Chevy side. The linking of the body # and order info didn't generate / affect the VIN assignment.

[Belair62]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Charley.gif Someone post a link to the John Z Norwood process....

[Steve Shauger]

Go to camaros.org The article is listed under the report section. The First Generation Assembly Process. I tried to paste a link and it did not work. A really comprehensive article that answered
many questions.One question for me was, what was the tape used for that I found under the fender on the passenger side cowl area. Well it was explained in the document: It held the antenna cabling in place, so that the antenna could be easily installed in the fender.

[Keith Tedford]

I don't know about other plants, but Oshawa was all one unit. There was no separate Fisher body side. There were two bodyshops, A and B body. The bodies were scheduled and built then sent to the paint shop. They came back to their respective sides of the plant in the general assembly area. Eventually the bodies met the chassis' at the marriage station. The chassis had also been scheduled to be built and meet the body at the same time. Beyond Fisher on blueprints, there was really no connection with Fisher. As a tool and die maker I worked in the bodyshop, General Assembly, or where ever I was needed. The Doraville plant in Atlanta seemed to of a similar setup.

[Belair62]

What functions did you perform Keith ? Very interesting stuff..I have an Oshawa 63 Belair

[Kurt S]

http://www.camaros.org/assemblyprocess.shtml

Keith,
John discusses the change to an integrated plant a little in the first few paragraphs and has posted about that in the past (on camaros.net and on CRG). From what I know, plant setup depended on when you worked there and what division ran the plant. The divided plant was incredibly inefficient.

[Chevy454]

There's a few posts around here with info from Moparts' dad who worked at the St. Louis plant...Fisher body did from the firewall back, then passed the car through a wall to Chevrolet who took it from there. Pretty wild...

[Kim_Howie]

OK My 67 Yenko on the trim tag has 4FK - I started asking about the dash. Nobody knows for sure. I know of 3 67's 375 non Yenko cars that don't have the dash. I know of 3 67 Yenko's that have the dash. I also know of 2 that don't.Yenko I think had ordered several 67's 375 cars at one time. This I think were a fleet order, They have the dashs on them that's all it is not a COPO order. COPO is away to order cars not offered under RPO #s in other words not all dealers could get them. I hope this helps. Kim

[Steve Shauger]

That my understanding as well.

[Charley Lillard]

My friends 67 Yenko has the dash ans also has a 1/2" sway bar

[Keith Tedford]

I worked in the car plant as a tool and die maker from 1976-1983. The west end of the plant had the "A body" body shop and general assembly for Chevelle and Monte Carlo. The east end was for the full sized "B body" Chev and Pontiac. There was a separate Chassis plant as well where the chassis and drive train were assembled and married to the body. In the '60s they built Chev, Pontiac, Olds, and Buick. Now that would have been a tooling nightmare that I wasn't around to see. They even had a small Corvair line at one time. In the '60s, when it would have been interesting, I was in the up town stamping plant learning how to be a tool and die maker. Every year we built a full set of hood and fender dies for the full sized Chev and Pontiac. That ended in about 1970 when model changes became a matter of grille and tail light changes. The body metal basically stayed the same until the 1977 model change. After the year's production run, the dies were greased up and stored in an outdoor compound. Periodically, dies would be brought back into the plant and runs of earlier model fenders would be run on weekends to suppply the GM warehouses. Once the dies weren't needed any more, apprentices, along with a crane operator, were sent out to the field to strip the dies and bring the die shoes in for re-use. How things have changed. Now the dies are just as apt to be built half the way around the world.

[Kim_Howie]

I bet the car was converted at DH shop.

[Belair62]

Got any pics of dies Keith ?

[Pacecarjeff]

This is a Zedder quote from not too long ago;
[ QUOTE ]
Man, you really are a rocket scientist aren't you

Don't waste your breath trying to reason with him.

Also, to clear up some misinformation he provided in this thread, the 80055 GM Oshawa account was a Sales Promotion Account, not a "Show car" account. Over the years, this term has been used incorrectly by some at GM Vintage Services - especially in the early days when much of this information was just being figured out.

Pacecarjeff...please do not continue to contact me with your little games, I don't care about your "special car" or your "trim tag collection" http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess it didn't take as long as I thought for this big talker to be proved absolutly wrong.

All I can say McZedder is "I told you so", and keep watching for additional developments.

Guess I was right about the blue stripe thing too.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif

[Pacecarjeff]

Here is how GM of Canada OFFICIALLY describes Special order #80055

"Just an update from Vintage Vehicle Services. 80055 is not a Zone Office account, there was no zone office in Oshawa, Ontario, this was head office. Zone offices were out in the field such as Toronto, Winnipeg, Vancouver, etc. 80055 is a Show Car account used by the Sales Department for company show cars that were sent to new car shows to display our products. These cars were usually heavily optioned so that customers could see a wide variety of features on the vehicles, but not always. I am just a newbie here but thought I should clear up a few misconceptions."