how many zl1 motors were made

[Paul e]

It seems that there are more 3946052 ZL1 blocks popping up on ebay every day. From what I understood there were only 69 camaro's and 2 corvette,s and maybe 18 or so over the counter motors. And how do you tell if it is a over the counter motor from one that came in a car from a can am motor? I own one that doesnt have any dates or vin #'s on it, just a cast number. Mine came from Washington state and has a history of being in that state for at least 25-30 years or so.

http://www.pbase.com/paule/image/51956005

[Canucklehead]

Wasent there a bunch made for boats?

[PeteLeathersac]

Just thinking about the GM repop ZL1 blocks and wondering if any are being passed off as originals? . Here's a link below to one supplier. ~ Pete

http://69.20.110.81/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=22582

[x44d80]

Probably not. The originals had nice sand cast dates in them. I dont know if the new ones do but if they do I dont think they'd cast in a date of 1969. Plus the new blocks are redesigned for strenght. The old blocks are really cool but Grumpy Jenkins called them "junk"

[firstgenaddict]

The new blocks have screw in freeze plugs, and a few other updates but they are cast from the original molds. I remember reading about when the guy found them in the Winters Foundry. Said that they were in almost perfect shape as not too many blocks were cast in relation to useful life cycle of the molds.

[PeteLeathersac]

What a find that was! . So do the new ones have the Winters Foundry casting mark....and what's the head situation? ~ Pete

[SuperNovaSS]

The old blocks have screw in freeze plugs as well.


Jason

[69SSRSL89]

Has anyone used one of these new ZL1 blocks? I was thinking of building a motor with one as a base but was wondering how happy people where with them. Are they good quality for the money? I know that I could probably cover the cost of most of a crate 502 for the price of a new ZL1 block but that all aluminum block heads and intake would look sweet when you open the hood not to mention the weight difference. I thought that I had heard at SCR8 that COPO PETE's white copo has one of these in it and that thing fly's. If anyone has any information on these or knows anyone that has worked with them I'd appreciate hearing about them. Thanks in advance. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif Jesse

[69SSZL1]

I do have one of those new blocks. I built a complete ZL-1 engine with ZL-1 heads,manifold,carb,distributor, and NOS Zl-1 cam,pistons,crank,rods,etc. and run it in my 69 SS Camaro. The block is outstanding quality, the engine is the same weight as a small block. The new block has the early ZL-1 casting number 3946053 and no "Winters" snowflake on the front.

[PLATINUM6BBL]

I know a guy that has 7 of the original ZL-1's. One is out of his 4000 mile orange ZL-1 Vette and the other 6 were over the counter

[Mr70]

I thought I'd share this here.
This is an original 2 page Flyer mailed out to the P&A Manager at the Chevrolet dealerships.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v669/Rick_Peters/ZL1papers0005.jpg

[Mr70]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v669/Rick_Peters/ZL1papers0001.jpg

[shor]

i'll take one, please

[Mr70]

Just one! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[El Camino1]

I too am curious about production amount. I have an aluminum 427, casting # 3940652, I cannot find a serial # but on the passenger side down low next to oil pan it has a # 66 stamped in it. what is the rareity and value?

[ZL1#17]

Is there a cast date on the block? Is there a number below the cast date? Also look at the back of the block in line with the distributor there should be a number stamped there also.

[TXSS]

For those that are interested in the new ZL-1 block here are some pics of mine right out of the crate. After taking it to the machine shop they have had a stream of people coming by to see it and commenting on it's high quality. I know I'm very happy with it. Not quite the nostalgia of the old one but a much better built and looking block.

http://www.katyclassiccars.com/ZL12/zl1b.jpg

http://www.katyclassiccars.com/ZL12/zl1a.jpg

http://www.katyclassiccars.com/ZL12/zl1c.jpg

http://www.katyclassiccars.com/ZL12/zl1d.jpg

http://www.katyclassiccars.com/ZL12/zl1e.jpg

[Xplantdad]

That's a cool engine Rick! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[mr396]

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a180/mr396/ZL1prod.jpg I found this in an old 1987 muscle car review.sorry this is as clear as I can make it,

[PeteLeathersac]

Although helpful Les, Preve's listing above shows only F-body suffix ZL1 motors and doesn't appear to include the Vette ZL1's nor any supplied to McLaren and other Can-Am teams etc. . Isn't there something about 5 or 7 'Vette ZL1 motors being originally produced then some returned? . Can the Can-Am motors can be referred to as a ZLI since they're a different displacement? . Are all the Winters Alum. blocks the same casting number? . Perhaps the question could be....what other GM-Winters Alum. block motors were released to add to these known F-car engines resulting in what Grand Total? ~ Pete

[Kim_Howie]

Rick, What was the # of your block on the paper that was att. to the block mine is ici-016

[71-LS6]

Can someone please point out the EXTERNAL differences, between the new block and the old block? I want to do a ZL1 clone for FS/FAST racing, and I've about given up on finding an original block to work with.

[Kim_Howie]

The new block has thicker deck and main bearing area. Good for 900 HP. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif What I have been told is anything over 800HP on the org blocks BOOM They won't hold up.

[TXSS]

Kim

That's a good question. I can't remember where I put the paper work. I'll have to find it and let you know. Is there some significance to the number?

Rick

[Kim_Howie]

Rick, I bought mine 5 years ago and I was wondering what # yours was to come up with how many had been sold.

[Kim_Howie]

Dah Steve I didn't read your question right. The block outside looks very close to org. blocks. There is no winters flake on the new one also the grain look of the block is different. Hopes this helps.

[nuch_ss396]

[ QUOTE ]
I know a guy that has 7 of the original ZL-1's. One is out of his 4000 mile orange ZL-1 Vette and the other 6 were over the counter

[/ QUOTE ]

Every discussion on ZL-1 Vette's that I have ever heard
about only mentioned two. One yellow and the other white.
Where did this orange one come from? Is it verified as a
true ZL-1?

Steve

[ZL1mike]

`after owning a couple of the vintage ZL1 blocks / ZL1 motors I think now I would rather own a new block like this one here in the box, wow what a masterpiece. Too bad it's almost twice the money $10.k minimum cdn http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif plus 2 taxes 15% here in Canada from my GM parts dealer. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[nuch_ss396]

[ QUOTE ]
`after owning a couple of the vintage ZL1 blocks / ZL1 motors I think now I would rather own a new block like this one here in the box, wow what a masterpiece. Too bad it's almost twice the money $10.k minimum cdn http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif plus 2 taxes 15% here in Canada from my GM parts dealer. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Are these new ZL-1 blocks gen IV compatible? In other
words, can you mount the original ZL-1 top end, distributor,
oil pan, timing cover, water pump, original crank, etc..?

Steve

[ZL1mike]

yes you can and I will if I can get one reasonably priced, I have another pair of NOS 077 ZL1 heads and an 198 intake I was saving to use on my next project, but this one i was going to make it 12-1 comp ratio.
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[67L78conv]

[ QUOTE ]
`after owning a couple of the vintage ZL1 blocks / ZL1 motors I think now I would rather own a new block like this one here in the box, wow what a masterpiece. Too bad it's almost twice the money $10.k minimum cdn http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif plus 2 taxes 15% here in Canada from my GM parts dealer. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I was looking on the web at a site that has the new block listed and it is $6,250.00. They seem to have a pretty reasonable price on most of their engines although I only started looking recently.The link is-

http://www.crateenginedepot.com/store/ZL1-Aluminum-Big-Block-12370850-P233C24.aspx

[Kim_Howie]

Check with your local dealer. I bought mine for 5050.00 but that was several years ago.

[Kim_Howie]

Check this out..http://www.sdpc2000.com/catalog/304/products/1163/BB-Chevrolet-ZL1-Aluminum-Block.htm

[ZL1mike]

THANKS that's more like it $4689.95.
mike http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[nuch_ss396]

Another http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/stupid.gif question if you please.

Can this new ZL-1 block support the use of the later
14011077 heads? Obviously, these heads don't require those
special two inverted lifter valley head bolts.

And while I'm on that subject, can annyone tell me where
you can get the correct head bolts for this monster? I
remember seeing a complete set of NOS ZL-1 head bolts on
eBay two years ago. EXPENSIVE! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

Steve

[69SSZL1]

You will have to go with ARP bolts. They don't have a set for this application, and they don't have studs to fit. You have to measure each bolt-3 different sizes for 074 heads. The new block has deeper threads so the NOS bolts are not the best fit.

[GMH454]

On the original question, can't tell but remember a GM executive and former NCRS president gave me an estimate of 300 +. Probably conservative

Have a block, ex Greenwood. Which has GM stamping on the pad of 1-8880-A, Porterfield gave me copies of some GM notes that indicated similar numbers went to McLaren and think Donahue (have not looked at them in 10 yrs.)This was dated in the 70's and may have been Can Am blocks, but the numbers were in the same range.

People talk about these being sold by GM, personally think most were back doored.
Who would pay the price of a new car, to buy an engine that in Drags was no advantage due to the weight cap, and in A-prod they were not referred to as grenades for nothing.

Remember in a early Vette mag a photo of Greenwood clearing out the last 16 around 76 or 77.

Wish GM had kept better paperwork.

[SuperNovaSS]

If they had better paperwork it would take away the mystic. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


Jason

[zl1vette]

Here is something that I found in another forum. I guess it refers to "production" GM motors only. Don't take this as Gospel of course, but FWIW:

"A total of only ninety (90) ZL1 engines were built: fifty-four (54) in the COPO 9560 manual transmission configuration, thirty-four (34) in the COPO 9560 automatic transmission configuration, one (1) in the COPO 9567 manual transmission configuration, and one (1) in the COPO 9567 automatic transmission configuration for the other prototype Camaro.

"Of those ninety engines, sixty-nine (69) were put in COPO 9560 cars (47 manual, 22 automatic), two (2) were put in 1969 Corvettes, and two (2) were put in the COPO 9567 cars, leaving seventeen (17) crate engines (5 manual, 12 automatic)."

http://www.camaros.net/forum/ultimatebb.php/topic/26/38.html#000000

[Kurt S]

Those are Camaro engine totals. A whole other batch of Vette engines were made (that have the Vette engine codes on them) and lots of bare blocks.

[superstocker]

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d46/RPOZ28/ZL1.jpg

[Luke 10:27]

This is a very old thread but I am digging it up because I have seen with my own eyes some old paperwork related to the ZL1 block mostly. It is an old paper file and I know the original source. It is legitimate GM prints and various internal notes. Most of it is from the early 1970s. I have not had the opportunity to look at all of it yet but may get a chance to look at it again soon. I believe the person who currently is in possession of it may be interested in parting with it if it was s worth their while. It looked to me like most of it was related to block 3946053 but it also looked like there were other part numbers in the file as well. Does anyone on here have any insight into the historical or monetary value might be?

[bergy]

Good scripture there Luke 10:27.

Who is the original source? I was a superintendent in production at Tonawanda MCP in the 70s. Maybe I know him?

[William]

It has historical value.

As for monetary value, ask the people that have been sitting on internal Chevrolet Engineering documentation for decades. Still waiting on the big payday. The people ready to write the book have given up in frustration. The number of people that care is shrinking fast.

As long as the Dog In the Manger act continues, the entire ZL-1 story will not be told.

[Steve Shauger]

It has historical value.

As for monetary value, ask the people that have been sitting on internal Chevrolet Engineering documentation for decades. Still waiting on the big payday. The people ready to write the book have given up in frustration. The number of people that care is shrinking fast.

As long as the Dog In the Manger act continues, the entire ZL-1 story will not be told.

Very well said William... The poster may be associated with those holding the documents....

[Luke 10:27]

I agree with all of you. The individual associated with these documents originally is long gone. The caretakers of them believe they have high value (I assume was told this by the original source). They are fearful of going public with them as they think there could be legal repercussions as the company is still in business. I believe they would destroy them if they thought they could risk being in trouble. I was brought into this because they trust me and I have knowledge on this stuff. I would like to make sure the historical part is preserved but I am guessing it won't be given away. I am considering making an offer to buy these documents but if I would do that, I would have a way to recoup my investment. If I were a rich man I would buy them and donate them to the historical cause but I'm not a rich man...lol.

[William]

Chevrolet doesn't seem to care much about 53-year-old engineering info. Plenty of Chevrolet engineering documentation was published in the Chevrolet by the numbers books.

Today you can visit the GM Heritage Center and request a part drawing. If they can locate it, they will provide a copy.

I have the 2022 Chevrolet Performance catalog. The ZL-1 block casting is noted: DISCONTINUED-Check dealer stock for availability.

I am curious as to what the difference was between the 3946052 and 3946053 cylinder blocks. Put me down for $20 US.

[Kurt S]

Chevrolet doesn't seem to care much about 53-year-old engineering info.
Today you can visit the GM Heritage Center and request a part drawing. If they can locate it, they will provide a copy.
Agreed. GM does not care about old docs like this - there is no liability or risk here.

GM will not provide copies of prints. If they can find it, you may look at it and take notes.....

[olredalert]

----I have been to the Heritage Center with a good friend and spent a whole day going thru reems of paperwork looking for particular stuff. Found many interesting things so it was a fruitful day. My friend went back and spent the whole next day as well. If there is a good enough reason you can make an appointment!....Bill S

[William]

GM will not provide copies of prints. If they can find it, you may look at it and take notes.....

Chevrolet by the numbers books are full of copies.

[Kurt S]

Chevrolet by the numbers books are full of copies.
Yup, that was then, this is now.

[JoeC]

Chevrolet gave the rights to Yenko to purchase ZL-1 blocks from the Winters Foundry in Canton Ohio. (with some restrictions).

The part number listed is 3952318

The letter is dated June 7 , 1974

signed by F. A. Duco , Director, Manufacturing Sales

[William]

Chevrolet produced other, different; aluminum big block castings that were not part of the ZL-1 program. Some were never sold to the public, provided to Chaparral and McLaren for their race cars. As of early 1968, they began development of an 'aluminum block L-88' that later became Corvette RPO ZL-1 for the 1969 MY. Due to poor sales, the ZL-1 program ended July 1969.

Chevrolet continued to develop aluminum big block castings for racing without liners or provision for a mechanical fuel pump. These were sold as bare blocks only, never used in production. Those and Yenko blocks are not considered ZL-1s.

The only true ZL-1 castings are 3946052 and 3946053, as used in 2 production Corvettes and 69 Camaros.

[JoeC]

looking at the Yenko documents it looks like they bought about 200 of the ZL-1 blocks from the Winters Foundry after 1974.

These were required by SCCA for the Corvettes that ran the ZL-1 engine.

The other Yenko aluminum blocks were not legal to race in the SCCA Corvettes at that time.

Zora and Vince Piggins were involved with getting the blocks made.

The part number 3946052 is listed as the "cylinder and case rough "

The part number 3952318 is for the "cylinder and case assembly "

The 3952318 assembly has a parts list of about 20 parts including bearing caps and bolts, plugs, dowel pins , cam plate, and other small parts.

These Yenko documents are in the Mark Gillespie 2nd Yenko Era book. Includes a hand written note from Vince Piggins.

[William]

Do you know if those had YENKO cast into them?

Seen a few like that, one did not have coolant passages.

[JoeC]

The Yenko ZL-1 blocks did not have the Yenko name on them.

On the Winters invoice the ZL-1 blocks have a note - (no trade name)

The Yenko blocks have a note - (with Yenko name plate)

There are photos of two blocks , one has the Winters snowflake and the other block has the letters "YENKO" in the same place where the snow flake is on the other block.

Did the 1969 ZL-1 blocks have a date code like an iron block?
The ZL-1 blocks that Yenko had made would be after 1974 but not sure if they had a date code on them.

There are letters back and forth with Bill Porterfield with an agreement to use and promote the Yenko block. dated Dec 1978 . I know Bill had a company called Mid Engineering and built a mid engine 1978 Olds 442 and a Kelmart GT using Olds engines but may have also used the Yenko block.

[William]

Yes, near the motor mount on the left side. ZL-1 blocks have a casting sequence number, a machining sequence number.

I have a small log of data on blocks that abruptly stops as of July 1969. Have not seen a later casting. They did a pilot run of ZL-1 blocks in the late '80s but used a different, darker alloy. A few of these blocks were machined and built. Somewhere I have a pic of unmachined blocks on a pallet.

Too bad, the entire ZL-1 story may never be told.

[JoeC]

Yenko and Greenwood and others were still using the ZL-1 block in the 1970s for SCCA racing.

I remember an article on Greenwood showing about 15 blocks he had bought from Chevy. There must not have been many new blocks left by the mid 1970s.

[William]

Reason to believe Winters cast just under 600 blocks. Engine production eventually totaled 182: 80 "ME", 14 "MG", 54 "ML", and 34 "MM". I have heard there was a high scrap rate but no hard numbers. No matter, plenty of unused blocks around.

Another observation: have never seen and do not know of a CE ZL-1 short or fitted block. The ZL-1 Camaros I know of that had warranty engine failures were either repaired or had complete engine replacement with a converted ME code engine.

At this time, I do not know of a production ZL-1 Camaro built with a Holley #4296 carb. Some of Gibb's 50 were retrofitted; original owner history on one of the last cars built stated it was delivered with the L72/L78 #4346.