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69 Camaro BB blacked out panel?
Hello,
Could someone please provide me with the correct paint code for the blacked out rear panel on a 69 Camaro SS 396? Also, how far down exactly does the black paint go down? Thanks! |
Re: 69 Camaro BB blacked out panel?
TTT
No answer ......no CODE I've ever read about. Some very experienced shops maintain tail panel is "same as" Z-28 stripes and rocker panel black. Pretty sure Charley has owned a Yellow Survivor 69 SS Big Block with survivor Gloss Black Rear Panel. |
Re: 69 Camaro BB blacked out panel?
Highly debated topic. I'm in the more satin camp based on what I found on my SS. It seems like a political debate. Everyone who doesn't agree with me is wrong lol...
Check out this thread over at CRG. It should shed some light for you. Here are a couple of pics of the most original paint I could imagine. http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=2458.0 http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/...lack%20out.jpg http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/...high%20res.jpg |
Re: 69 Camaro BB blacked out panel?
Every original paint black tail panel car i have ever seen is gloss black . The paint lacks luster over the years but the tell tail is when you roll up the trunk weatherstrip the paint is gloss black inside ... KP
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Re: 69 Camaro BB blacked out panel?
Do you consider this gloss? This is what I found on mine.
http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/...901_154616.jpg http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/...l/IMAG0637.jpg |
Re: 69 Camaro BB blacked out panel?
From a guy who was there...
"JohnZ CRG Member ***** Posts: 4308 View Profile Personal Message (Offline) Re: black on tailpan on ss cars « Reply #21 on: June 16, 2009, 10:23:49 AM » Quote I'll go against the grain with this one too - I saw hundreds of them coming down the line at Norwood iin February and March of 1969, and I never saw one that was gloss black." |
Re: 69 Camaro BB blacked out panel?
IMHO, I don't think those pics hold up very well, in either point of the discussion. While a great pic of the black and HO , I hardly believe the HO is a semi-gloss finish also. It has aged as much as the black and shows the same luster. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif[/img]
BIG |
Re: 69 Camaro BB blacked out panel?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 68l30</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IMHO, I don't think those pics hold up very well, in either point of the discussion. While a great pic of the black and HO , I hardly believe the HO is a semi-gloss finish also. It has aged as much as the black and shows the same luster. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif[/img]
BIG </div></div> What about the ad pic and the fact that John was actually there? The pic of the HO on my car would have shown more of its glossiness if I had angled the camera in that direction. I was getting the best pic possible of the sheen of the black. I don't debate that a few might have been painted gloss for whatever reason, but I think a majority of what a few people are calling original gloss is just highly waxed and or buffed out satin from well taken care of/babied survivors. Here's another good quote from someone that would know: "bertfam Hero Member ***** Posts: 2337 View Profile Personal Message (Offline) Re: black on tailpan on ss cars « Reply #30 on: June 18, 2009, 11:36:18 AM » Quote To add to what I just wrote above, I decided it was time to put this debate to rest, so I contacted Jim Mattison to get the straight poop on this subject. Here's what he had to say (submitted with his permission): Quote In 1968 through 1971, I was a member of the Fleet & Special Order Department (the collectors call it COPO) at Chevrolet Central Office, in Detroit. A part of my daily duties was to approve or disapprove special paint requests, in addition to handling the other COPO requests. I would innerface with the folks at Dupont and at the assembly plants. Your question is an interesting one that I've not been asked in many years. Every year I would recieve a listing of paint specs for both passenger car and trucks, to aid in the special paint process. As you know, all big block Camaros had the upper rear tail panel painted black. A little known fact is that some of the COPO 427 Camaros had this rear panel painted black also, although in the restoration process, years later they were repainted body color. Unfortunately, I no longer have my paint spec books and I sincerely doubt that there are any other copies around. However, I remember vividly that this rear panel on the big block Camaros was painted a "Satin Black", not a gloss, nor a flat black. I hope that this information is helpful To add to this, we also discussed the lower rocker color on the Rally Sport cars and again, these are a "Satin Black" like the tail panel. Ed" |
Re: 69 Camaro BB blacked out panel?
Show me a good survivor with satin tail panel. I am basing my opinion on looking at survivors. I believe memories can get clouded.
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Re: 69 Camaro BB blacked out panel?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I believe memories can get clouded. </div></div>I definitely won't debate that and have seen it plenty of times... I know you're pretty adamant that its gloss, but what do you think about the ad pic?
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Re: 69 Camaro BB blacked out panel?
The AD pic is sales "art" and nothing more, this is from the first printing. I wouldn't base too much on that picture.
BIG |
Re: 69 Camaro BB blacked out panel?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 68l30</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The AD pic is sales "art" and nothing more, this is from the first printing. I wouldn't base too much on that picture.
BIG </div></div> Have you ever seen a print ad that showed gloss? I haven't is why I ask. Why would Chevrolet consistently advertise something that was so far off year after year? I think if Chevy thought the print ad being satin would sell more Camaros then it stands to reason that the actual car being satin would sell more as well right? Either way, gloss looks hideous in my opinion and nobody has proven to me that it really was gloss. I know there are a lot of 46 yo survivors with original paint out there, but a lot can happen in 46 years. |
Re: 69 Camaro BB blacked out panel?
21k mile unrestored original paint L89. Do you consider this gloss? I see it as satin.
http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/.../69ss396-4.jpg |
Re: 69 Camaro BB blacked out panel?
LOL...That looks glossy to me. I see reflections in it.
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Re: 69 Camaro BB blacked out panel?
The words and phrases are too subjective. What % of gloss is "satin" ? What percentage of full gloss is "semi gloss"
I have a 70 SS Camaro (L-78) with what I think is the original Black Tailpanel. Under the fold down license plate holder the black is very glossy....but without instruments I cant say how glossy. In all my years of going to car shows, I think most black tailpanels are painted too dull, not shiny enough. I agree with Pascoe, Charley, the SCR and those that paint them gloss or close to it. |
Re: 69 Camaro BB blacked out panel?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LOL...That looks glossy to me. I see reflections in it. </div></div>
I just threw back two gin and tonic's, I think I see 66.921% gloss now...err...could be the gin.. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/hmmm.gif[/img] http://www.mouseowners.com/forums/im...deadhorse5.gif |
Re: 69 Camaro BB blacked out panel?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LOL...That looks glossy to me. I see reflections in it. </div></div>You wouldn't see any reflection in satin?
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Re: 69 Camaro BB blacked out panel?
Not in the satin that everyone seems to think is correct.
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Re: 69 Camaro BB blacked out panel?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: m22mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LOL...That looks glossy to me. I see reflections in it. </div></div>
I just threw back two gin and tonic's, I think I see 66.921% gloss now...err...could be the gin.. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/hmmm.gif[/img] http://www.mouseowners.com/forums/im...deadhorse5.gif </div></div> Mike, put down the cocktail and take a pic of your tailpanel.....I bet the farm it's glossy! [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/naughty.gif[/img] BIG |
Re: 69 Camaro BB blacked out panel?
Here a one owner X66 that has so much gloss in it, it was hard to take the pic.
BIG https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...6548-image.jpg |
Re: 69 Camaro BB blacked out panel?
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Re: 69 Camaro BB blacked out panel?
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Re: 69 Camaro BB blacked out panel?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 68l30</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here a one owner X66 that has so much gloss in it, it was hard to take the pic.
BIG https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...6548-image.jpg </div></div> If that's what you're calling gloss, then we're pretty close to agreement. You can't see a reflection in it, but it's relatively shiny. What gloss I don't agree with is what Charley posted. I'm sure it's original paint, but I think big blocks that are that shiny are shiny because of years of care. I'm far from an expert and haven't seen his cars in person, but from what I've seen that's my opinion for whatever that's worth. |
Re: 69 Camaro BB blacked out panel?
The more I look at the yellow Yenko, I have to say you make a real good argument with it. If the black were rubbed on too much, the over spray into the yellow probably would have been cleaned up a lot.
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Re: 69 Camaro BB blacked out panel?
After taking a serious look at the original photos of my fathers (now mine) car and walking out in the garage and looking at it I decided to try something. Here is a little test I performed on the car. You will obviously see the square where I used Meguiar's #7. Then an example of the green and finally a close-up of the black after a good hand buffing with the #7. The main thing I have realized is that lacquer when it dries out from years of no treatment becomes faded and loses its gloss and luster. For years I was on the semi or satin side but now after working with polishes and lacquer paints I have been converted...
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...6-img_4632.jpg https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...7-img_4636.jpg https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...8-img_4639.jpg |
Re: 69 Camaro BB blacked out panel?
you can spray anything flat black, like a rat rod. Take a buffer to it and your rat rod is now shiny new black paint.
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Re: 69 Camaro BB blacked out panel?
I don't think anyone is buffing the trunk lips on these original cars; lots of shine in the original paint, whatever the % is.
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Re: 69 Camaro BB blacked out panel?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: resto4u</div><div class="ubbcode-body">you can spray anything flat black, like a rat rod. Take a buffer to it and your rat rod is now shiny new black paint. </div></div>
Not sure if your comment was referencing me but I can assure you no buffer was used.. Only hand polish and we are talking less than a couple minutes.. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/wink.gif[/img] |
Re: 69 Camaro BB blacked out panel?
The problem with flat or semi gloss black is that one good waxing and it is now forever gloss black.
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Re: 69 Camaro BB blacked out panel?
Steve I guess that leads me to my next point/question.. When these cars came out of paint for the body color it then traveled through the next stage which was the striping and black out area. I would bet that the black used for the stripes was the same that was used for the bb blackout, rs blackout etc.. This is an interesting read and lends to some speculation on both sides but I just don't see GM using multiple blacks for the fear of creating a possible mistake.. Maybe I'm wrong..
http://www.camaros.org/assemblyprocess.shtml |
Re: 69 Camaro BB blacked out panel?
Is it possible that the black rear panel cars were sprayed with gloss black after the car received its body color reflowed lacquer and then it would not take on the shine of regular black painted cars that received the reflowed process? That is basically what the above posted link says in it while addressing the black painted rear panels.
I am old enough to remember looking at these cars new in the showroom and the rear panel was not satin or flat black, they had a shine to them, but not as shiny as the regular black painted cars |
Re: 69 Camaro BB blacked out panel?
Personally I don’t think it is straight black, It looks as though DuPont mixed a little white and maybe a little yellow into the formula similar to some of the under hood formulas. Then again the matting agent will sometimes make it look a little milky. You would have to do a few spray out cards to determine what percentage of Matt and which toners you would need.
Mark |
Re: 69 Camaro BB blacked out panel?
1 Attachment(s)
Again I am pretty protective of the book research but again for the sake of giving you a definitive answer here is a Photo excerpt from the book "Echoes of Norwood" © 2013 Philip Borris and some additional non published research that was not put in the book (but perhaps I should have?)
<span style="font-weight: bold">"The back panel paint was applied on the line between ovens 2 and 3. The paint was the same paint used on the rockers. The gloss difference was a technical result of the temperature differences within the last reflow oven. The first being where the upper portions of the body were exposed to more consistent heat than the rockers and the reflow process was always more glossy in those areas". "If there was a temperature difference in plant say a summer day- the body was already hot going into the oven - warm to the touch- as opposed to a winter day where the body would be cool to the touch. All of these factors played into the final reflow outcome" "Cars built in cooler conditions in plant probably were less prone to high gloss where cars that cycled into the oven on a hot day had better and more consistent reflow due to the oven getting a fairly warm body to start with" </span> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It is my hope that this will put this issue to bed once and for all. The above is an excerpt of an interview from 6 years ago from the paint Department supervisor who was actually there and can prove he was there. His name appears on the 1969 personnel listing at Norwood as a Fisher Body employee in paint. In addition He supervised the man in the picture below. My Guess... Cars built in the summer <span style="font-weight: bold">glossy</span> Cars built in the winter <span style="font-weight: bold">less glossy</span> Spring and Fall <span style="font-weight: bold">split the gloss %</span> Merry Christmas!! Enjoy. |
Re: 69 Camaro BB blacked out panel?
....and there it is! Thank you Phill [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/scholar.gif[/img]
BIG |
Re: 69 Camaro BB blacked out panel?
Great explanation and makes perfect sense. Thank you!! [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]
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Re: 69 Camaro BB blacked out panel?
FWIW, I asked a friend about his '68 SS396 Camaro he bought new, and it was a relatively early '68. He says it definitely was not as shiny as the rest of the car.
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Re: 69 Camaro BB blacked out panel?
As Paul Harvey would say -- "and here's the rest of the story" ...
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Re: 69 Camaro BB blacked out panel?
Thank you Phil, that is what I always understood. There was no reason to used two different gloss leves.
Nice to know about the temp variation too, helps understand the inconsistencies, and FWIW I will remain in the not glossy rear panel camp... [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img] "<span style="color: #FF0000">The paint was the same paint used on the rockers.</span>" |
Re: 69 Camaro BB blacked out panel?
See there ...everyone is right ! Good job Phil ! Behind the scenes detective work . Mikey go back to your gin and tonics
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Re: 69 Camaro BB blacked out panel?
Here is the tail panel on the 4K mile 68 Baldwin Motion car that Lud Renner bought new. It will be at Mecum Kissimmee.https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...1-img_6575.jpg
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...2-img_6576.jpg |
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