ZL-1 #1 Mecum May 15 - 17 - Page 4

**William** · #31 05-16-2012, 10:29 PM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kim_Howie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bruce, I don't know if Bill P bought the paper work from the Gibbs. I also don't know if Bill P charges for the paper work ,but I do know he has made a lot of money indirectly from the paper work. </div></div>

Let’s step into the time machine and travel back to 1981. I was there so I know the full story, not the 5% being related here.

Due solely to the persistence of Bill Porterfield all 69 1969 Camaro ZL-1 VINs were published in Super Chevy magazine, not just the 50 that were supposedly built. A certain individual [not BP] wisely saw a business opportunity and ran with it. With an investment of time, money and effort over a period of 15 years he was able to acquire a dozen [or more] ZL-1 Camaros. These were all very profitably resold. To him it was a business, not a hobby-so be it. Many of those cars went on to be restored and again very profitably resold many times over. Once the market was established, other ZL-1s were located, some in excellent original condition. Some of those have been also been very profitably resold. ZL-1s that have been under the radar for many years will undoubtedly prove to be a wise investment when they reach the market.

BP first acquired the #3 ZL-1 early in 1981, prompting a call to Vince Piggins. That set events in motion that were in large part responsible for the ZL-1 body of knowledge as we know it today. In 1988 BP acquired the #1 ZL-1 Camaro. With a large investment of time and money the car was returned to racing trim. This was done with the approval and blessing of Fred Gibb. There are many photos of them with the restored car. Fred had been approached by others seeking documents over the years but chose to retain them. Recognizing that BP was an enthusiast and not a profiteer that was just going to flip his old dealership race car, Fred gave him much of the factory documentation for the 50 ZL-1 Camaros he ordered. Fred Gibb knew the value of these documents and understood they would be sold to help offset the costs of the restoration and maintenance of the #1 car. For the next 18 years BP campaigned and displayed the #1 car, promoting the Gibb name. The car has been featured in several magazines. Today Fred Gibb Chevrolet is known to virtually every Chevy enthusiast and BP deserves much of the credit. He no longer owns either; #3 has been re-sold a few times since and #1 is at Mecum Indy this week.

The ZL-1 Camaro VIN list has been public knowledge for over 30 years. ZL-1 Camaro ownership is an exclusive group; exclusivity is never cheap and no one needs the documents. If you chose to buy them to perhaps enhance the value of the car that’s your choice. It must work; the #9 car just sold at B-J for an astonishing $451,000. The small amount of money paid for the documents pales in comparison.

Several people, not just the few names we all know, have made lots of money dealing in ZL-1 Camaros.

**Mr70** · #32 05-16-2012, 11:19 PM

Is Joe Z. the current owner of ZL-1 #1?

**DW31S** · #33 05-16-2012, 11:43 PM

I sent the photos I took of that car from the "Fire Weekend" to a member here to be posted. Hopefully, they will be here shortly. I helped Bill Porterfield sort through the damage and we did get the car running at that event (Super Chevy Indy 1991). It definitely wasn't close to being safe to race. When the pictures are posted you'll see what I mean and appreciate the time, effort, and money it took to return the car to it's present condition.

hvychev · #34 05-17-2012, 07:53 PM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: William</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kim_Howie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bruce, I don't know if Bill P bought the paper work from the Gibbs. I also don't know if Bill P charges for the paper work ,but I do know he has made a lot of money indirectly from the paper work. </div></div>

Let’s step into the time machine and travel back to 1981. I was there so I know the full story, not the 5% being related here.

Due solely to the persistence of Bill Porterfield all 69 1969 Camaro ZL-1 VINs were published in Super Chevy magazine, not just the 50 that were supposedly built. <span style="font-weight: bold"> A certain individual [not BP] wisely saw a business opportunity and ran with it. With an investment of time, money and effort over a period of 15 years he was able to acquire a dozen [or more] ZL-1 Camaros. These were all very profitably resold. To him it was a business, not a hobby-so be it.</span> Many of those cars went on to be restored and again very profitably resold many times over. Once the market was established, other ZL-1s were located, some in excellent original condition. Some of those have been also been very profitably resold. ZL-1s that have been under the radar for many years will undoubtedly prove to be a wise investment when they reach the market.

BP first acquired the #3 ZL-1 early in 1981, prompting a call to Vince Piggins. That set events in motion that were in large part responsible for the ZL-1 body of knowledge as we know it today. In 1988 BP acquired the #1 ZL-1 Camaro. With a large investment of time and money the car was returned to racing trim. This was done with the approval and blessing of Fred Gibb. There are many photos of them with the restored car. Fred had been approached by others seeking documents over the years but chose to retain them. Recognizing that BP was an enthusiast and not a profiteer that was just going to flip his old dealership race car, Fred gave him much of the factory documentation for the 50 ZL-1 Camaros he ordered. Fred Gibb knew the value of these documents and understood they would be sold to help offset the costs of the restoration and maintenance of the #1 car. For the next 18 years BP campaigned and displayed the #1 car, promoting the Gibb name. The car has been featured in several magazines. Today Fred Gibb Chevrolet is known to virtually every Chevy enthusiast and BP deserves much of the credit. He no longer owns either; #3 has been re-sold a few times since and #1 is at Mecum Indy this week.

The ZL-1 Camaro VIN list has been public knowledge for over 30 years. ZL-1 Camaro ownership is an exclusive group; exclusivity is never cheap and no one needs the documents. If you chose to buy them to perhaps enhance the value of the car that’s your choice. It must work; the #9 car just sold at B-J for an astonishing $451,000. The small amount of money paid for the documents pales in comparison.

Several people, not just the few names we all know, have made lots of money dealing in ZL-1 Camaros.
</div></div>

William, thanks for the informative history lesson. Even as a supercar enthusiast I was unaware of the details surrounding the legacy of the ZL1 resurgence in the 1980s. As you said, it's a very exclusive niche of this hobby, one scores of us could not be able to be a part of. With that said, I am going to assume that the individual you describe in bold above has a last name that begins with C. Just so I can learn more about this part of the hobby, was he just "given" the list early on by BP or how did he learn the ZL1 vin numbers? Was there a list passed around in those early days like the Yenko inventory sheets were pre Internet? I am assuming that Mr. C. obtained the list and got to work looking for lost ZL1's before the list was published in Super Chevy Magazine. This is just very interesting in a general historical way to me and I would like to learn more. Thanks for your insight.

hvychev · #35 05-17-2012, 07:57 PM

By the way, I have always thought and said that I feel that ZL1 #1 is THE most historically significant supercar in existance.

NRA4EVER · #36 05-17-2012, 08:16 PM

Although true they may of not charged anyone to use the Fred Gibb name/logo, if they decide they dont want you to have it anymore their lawyer will be sending you a letter stating so and then it could REALLY cost you, and I wonder why the car show name changed? Hmmmm, glad i'm over here on the west coast......

**William** · #37 05-17-2012, 08:48 PM

C first saw the list when Super Chev printed it. Everyone had the same opportunity so no one can cry foul. [It should be pointed out that ZL-1 values at that time were laughable. The #55 car, still one of the finest unrestored '69 Camaros, was advertised in the mid-'80s for $65,000]. Unlike today searching for the cars at that time was easy and casual. Wasn't all that hard to find someone with NCIC access; I had maybe 15-20 names and was able to locate one of them. There's maybe 10-12 that have never shown any registration for a variety of reasons and I'm sure a few of those still exist.

I jumped in here to set the record straight. BP has been involved with the Fred Gibb/ZL-1 story for nearly 25 years. No one has done more but several have earned more. He was awarded the documents and may do with them as he pleases.

While I'm at it Mr C also dug up quite a bit of ZL-1 info and did share it for some time. Both he and BP were helpful in our restoration of the #4 car.

hvychev · #38 05-17-2012, 10:08 PM

Very interesting info, thanks William.

It must have been a glorious time back in those early days of rediscovery, history was being unraveled every step of the way. I'm sure it wasn't nearly as cut throat as it is now due to the lack of players involved and info available. Most importantly, the value of these cars wasn't even close to what it is today which made the stakes lower. It must have been quite the experience tracking one of these old ZL1 owners down and going to their house to see that garage door lifted to unveil a lost treasure! Wow!

By the way, as you stated, Mr. C. had just as fair as a chance as anyone out there to go out and capitalize on the ZL1 phenomenon. You have to admit, he was an innovator! Only in America! [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/flag.gif[/img]

**William** · #39 05-18-2012, 02:04 AM

Garage? By the time I tracked down #4 it was parked on a lawn in Kuna, Idaho with a For Sale sign in the window. They were happy to get rid of it. The previous owner had bracket raced it at Firebird Raceway. There were several other Camaros competing there at the time, most notably another Cortez Silver ZL-1, the #13 car. Neither owner knew.

Around 1983 a friend called to say he spotted a nasty '69 at a repair shop near his home. It was on a battery charger so the hood was up and he noticed the BB heater. Turned out to be the #38 car, a Fathom Green auto. All there other than the engine. I should have bought it. Just wasn't that big of a deal at the time. Think he sold it for $2200.

Nancy Gibb · #40 05-18-2012, 03:04 AM

NRA4EVER.....I know when YOU FIRST posted here, your ADDRESS was ILLINOIS, MAYBE EVEN IN THE LAHARPE,ILLINOIS area. YOU need to STOP THE LIES and TELL THE TRUTH, " THE FRED GIBB MEMORIAL CAR SHOW" NAME WAS DROPPED/CHANGED BECAUSE KENNY BROWN AND BOB LIONBERGER, MY DAD'S FORMER SON IN LAW OF 6 YEARS, SENT US, HELEN, CONNIE, AND NANCY GIBB A MEAN EMAIL WHICH I WILL BE GLAD TO POST HERE, SAYING "THEY" WERE CHANGING THE NAME BECAUSE OF PROBLEMS BETWEEN THE BOB LIONBERGER FAMILY AND THE GIBB FAMILY. NOW IF YOU NOTICE, IT IS KENNY BROWN AND "BOB LIONBERGER" THAT ARE RUNNING THE NEW SHOW. THEY ARE TELLING PEOPLE THAT IT WAS CHANGED ALSO BECAUSE MY MOM, HELEN GIBB WOULD NO LONGER ALLOW THEM TO USE THE FRED GIBB NAME!THAT IS A LIE, AND SOOOO SAD THAT IT ALL STEMS FROM BOB LIONBERGER THINKING MY MOM SHOULD GIVE HIM SOME OF HER LAND. I HAVE REMAINED QUIET SINCE THIS ALL BEGAN LAST AUGUST. PEOPLE ARE ONLY HEARING ONE SIDE, BUT MAYBE POSTING THE EMAIL SENT TO US, AND A FEW PHOTOS OF THE LAND BOB LIONBERGER THOUGHT WE OWED HIM WILL HELP STOP THE LIES! WE HAVE GIVEN, INCLUDED, TREATED BOB LIONBERGER AS A SON-IN-LAW, AND BROTHER SINCE 1967 UNTIL LAST AUGUST WHEN HE DIDN'T WANT US TO PUT UP A MATCHING PIECE OF WHITE VINYL FENCE TO FINISH OUR LAND BOUNDRIES, BECAUSE HE WAS GOING TO TAKE THAT PIECE OF LAND ANYWAY, AND WITH THE LAYOUT OF HIS NEW GARAGE, HE WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO GET IN HIS NEW GARAGE THROUGH OUR FENCE! WE HAVE RESURVEYED, RECHECKED PAPERWORK AT THE COUNTY COURTHOUSE, BUT HE STILL THREATENS MY 89 YEAR OLD MOTHER WITH A LAWSUIT! HE SAID HE LOVED MY DAD AND OUR FAMILY, BUT SURE HAS HAD A FUNNY WAY OF SHOWING THAT......SHAME ON YOU BOB LIONBERGER, DAD MAY BE GONE, BUT HE STILL IS IN HEAVEN WATCHING WHAT YOU ARE DOING TO HIS FAMILY. I WON'T TAKE THE TIME TO LIST EVERTHING IN THE EMAIL, BUT WE WERE PRETTY MUCH TOLD IF WE CAME TO THE SHOW OR IF IT REMAINED THE 14TH ANNUAL "FRED GIBB MEMORIAL CAR SHOW", THAT NO ONE WOULD COME OR SPONSOR CLASSES. SOMEDAY, THE TRUTH WILL COME OUT, BUT IT IS JUST SO SAD THAT SOMEONE WE ALWAYS TREATED LIKE FAMILY AFTER A DIVORCE EVEN, DECIDED HE WAS THE ONE TO CARRY ON THE FRED GIBB NAME AND HISTORY. SORRY TO HAVE POSTED ALL OF THIS, BUT I HAVE HAD ENOUGH OF THE LIES AND BASHING BY SOME, OF "FRED GIBB", AND HIS LEGACY.