67 L78 Camaro convertible - Page 3

Jerry@CHP · #21 12-28-2008, 08:41 PM

Probably four times in court this year and more than that last year. Getting back to basics asking a seller if a car has the original engine leaves no wiggle room for any seller. Sellers have been prosecuted for this.

Buyers usually call me after the purchase and that's when the trauma begins. Always better to do pre-inspections before a purchase.

The term "restoration drive" train has been around in the Corvette arena for a while and in use at the Camaro Nats and concours judging for a couple of years now.

Jerry

**Mr70** · #22 12-28-2008, 08:50 PM

I agree with that to a point Jerry,cause if a seller says quickly and soflty,"the vehicle has an original...",and not "the" or it's original,is when the lawyers & judges come into play.
Cars restored w/o their "born with",but rather use a period correct replacement engine,trans,rearend,etc. dated closely,are notorious for using "an original" or "restoration drivetrain" in their description.
Make a seller state "original born with" on paper,and watch the sweat drip off his brow as the buyer walks away and our courts become less crowded.

Jerry@CHP · #23 12-28-2008, 09:03 PM

Rick,

Have never heard anyone use this term in the world of appraisers. That's what I'm saying. More new terms just muddy up all of the language to purchase a car. 20 years ago, number's matching was the accepted term and then lawyers found a way to work around that term and win their cases.

I tell people all the time, if you're spending a fair amount of money on any classic car, get a third party opinion and or inspection from a professional or knowledgable friend and then there are no issues.

Jerry

**firstgenaddict** · #24 12-29-2008, 12:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Seems like the use of the word "original" got watered down some. Born with came up basically around the hobby to take a stronger stand on what was the assembly line install on thess cars. Non car people use original with ease it seems. At least that is my take on it. "Born with" may be a stronger clarification in the eyes of the hobby?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats how I see it as well... Originally Assembly Line Installed in Vin XXXXXXXX would be about the only way you couldn't get lawyered up on!

**Late BrakeU2** · #25 12-29-2008, 02:09 AM

The one i'm really enjoying that's being bandied around now is "re established".

Ahh..the black hole of semantic deception.

Steve Drueck · #26 01-05-2009, 11:05 AM

Rick I have been hearing the term "born with" a lot more in the last 2 years, especially in southern states. Its a very clear definition. I always was skeptical seeing the term "original motor" on a car at an auction or at a muscle car dealer, as it can be mis-represented by the spin meisters. There is a huge difference between THE original motor, vs AN original motor (from another vehicle). With all the rampant fraud in the car industry, clarity is very welcome. "Born with" may not be a legal term, but it is 100% clear. Just my 2 cents ...

**tom406** · #27 01-06-2009, 05:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If I ever used "born with" in the court room, people would look at me like I just landed in from Mars.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been to court a few times as an appraiser over the last 15 years, and I've found the environment to be a lot less sophisticated than I'd expected or hoped. Mine are usually divorce or estate deals, and the classic car argument is a bit of a sideshow to the non-car folks in attendance.

I don't use the term much in my printed appraisals, but its a pretty clear, plain spoken way to differentiate
"an" original engine from "the" original engine. One statement to that effect to the courtroom should bring everyone up to speed, and eliminate any dismissive glances at an otherwise credible witness.

**TimG** · #28 01-07-2009, 01:34 AM

It could be the born with engine, but decked and stamped.....

How about born with and unrestamped. We really need to narrow this down.....

**Mr70** · #29 01-07-2009, 01:59 AM

Or to go the other way..
While watching the news,a born again christian Mother of 5 claimed she was now "Re-Hymenated".

Jerry@CHP · #30 01-07-2009, 05:54 AM

My experience has been that all juries have to be educated so they know all of the terms and language about a case.

When the jury understands that a H/P car having the original engine that was installed at the assembly plant is important, they know what a fraud case is all about.

I see some of these new terms such as "born with" being used mostly for sales ads on the internet and magazine ads. Who knows, maybe someone will "recreate" another term for original engine in years to come.

It still gets down to this. Get second and third opinions before you pull the trigger on any collectable muscle car.

Jerry