67 L78 Camaro convertible [Archive] - The Supercar Registry

L78M22Rag

12-27-2008, 07:50 AM

I'll settle for a real 67 4K ragtop that unfortunately lost it's original motor being driven the way it should be... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

TDW

12-27-2008, 05:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What is the difference between "born with" engine and original engine?

Jerry

[/ QUOTE ]

Same thing, just different terminology. Some people are saying "original engine" when it isn't the one that was installed in the car at the factory when the car was built. There is no "wiggle room" when you say it has the "born with" engine.

Jerry@CHP

12-27-2008, 07:20 PM

Tony,

That has to be some kind of Internet term as no licensed appraisers that I know use this term. Original engine means just that, the original engine that was installed in the car when it was built new. Number's matching is the term that sellers can put a spin on.

Happy New Year,

Jerry

firstgenaddict

12-27-2008, 07:30 PM

Born with just takes the wiggle room out!

TDW

12-27-2008, 08:13 PM

Yep, that's what it is Jerry. Just something else the crooks are doing to cheat people out of their cash.

Joe Schmoe says "yup,that there is a originel motor, ain't sure what it's original to, but it's original. He will not state it is the original engine that came in the paticular car you are asking about. Hence, the term "born with" was derived.

Stefano

12-27-2008, 09:39 PM

There is no official "Car Guy" dictionary. Some terms are defined in value guides such as NADA or CPI etc.

Courts are often called upon to define terminology in a given context.

"Original Engine" can be interpreted to mean "Original" to that make and model. An example would be one with a correct date and suffix code, but no VIN.

Some cars from the 1960s did not have VINs stamped on any of the drive train components.

I often use "original Born with engine" to clear up any potential misunderstandings.

Jerry@CHP

12-28-2008, 12:14 AM

As many times as I've been in court, that term has never been used. I for the record have stated in court that a car does have its original engine that was installed by the assembly plant when the car was built. Case closed.

"Born with" has a slang terminology to it.

Jerry

Salvatore

12-28-2008, 01:14 AM

People use "original" like they use "survivor" to describe THEIR cars anymore. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

SBR

12-28-2008, 05:01 AM

I agree with Jerry, original engine to me means the motor that the car came down the line with. I guess someone can interpret that in another way but to me its a cut and dry case. What should be asked also is the stamping on the pad original too as many motors were decked when rebuilt and have since been and restamped.

TDW

12-28-2008, 03:21 PM

Hey, I didn't come up with the term. I see it used, I answered a question as to what it meant.Case closed.

Salvatore

12-28-2008, 05:45 PM

Seems like the use of the word "original" got watered down some. Born with came up basically around the hobby to take a stronger stand on what was the assembly line install on thess cars. Non car people use original with ease it seems. At least that is my take on it. "Born with" may be a stronger clarification in the eyes of the hobby? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

Jerry@CHP

12-28-2008, 08:08 PM

If I ever used "born with" in the court room, people would look at me like I just landed in from Mars. Is that like Born Free?

Kinda part of the word smithing that goes on in our hobby. BJ does a good job, went from car clones, the recreations to tribute cars.

Jerry

Mr70

12-28-2008, 08:19 PM

How often are you in court room?
Maybe if "Born With" was more understood & only used where applies,you won't be called in as much.
As most have stated,to me those two lil words sum it all up & leave no wiggle room, unlike "Restoration Drivetrain".
Welcome to Mars..

Jerry@CHP

12-28-2008, 08:41 PM

Probably four times in court this year and more than that last year. Getting back to basics asking a seller if a car has the original engine leaves no wiggle room for any seller. Sellers have been prosecuted for this.

Buyers usually call me after the purchase and that's when the trauma begins. Always better to do pre-inspections before a purchase.

The term "restoration drive" train has been around in the Corvette arena for a while and in use at the Camaro Nats and concours judging for a couple of years now.

Jerry

Mr70

12-28-2008, 08:50 PM

I agree with that to a point Jerry,cause if a seller says quickly and soflty,"the vehicle has an original...",and not "the" or it's original,is when the lawyers & judges come into play.
Cars restored w/o their "born with",but rather use a period correct replacement engine,trans,rearend,etc. dated closely,are notorious for using "an original" or "restoration drivetrain" in their description.
Make a seller state "original born with" on paper,and watch the sweat drip off his brow as the buyer walks away and our courts become less crowded.

Jerry@CHP

12-28-2008, 09:03 PM

Rick,

Have never heard anyone use this term in the world of appraisers. That's what I'm saying. More new terms just muddy up all of the language to purchase a car. 20 years ago, number's matching was the accepted term and then lawyers found a way to work around that term and win their cases.

I tell people all the time, if you're spending a fair amount of money on any classic car, get a third party opinion and or inspection from a professional or knowledgable friend and then there are no issues.

Jerry

firstgenaddict

12-29-2008, 12:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Seems like the use of the word "original" got watered down some. Born with came up basically around the hobby to take a stronger stand on what was the assembly line install on thess cars. Non car people use original with ease it seems. At least that is my take on it. "Born with" may be a stronger clarification in the eyes of the hobby? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats how I see it as well... Originally Assembly Line Installed in Vin XXXXXXXX would be about the only way you couldn't get lawyered up on!

Late BrakeU2

12-29-2008, 02:09 AM

The one i'm really enjoying that's being bandied around now is "re established".

Ahh..the black hole of semantic deception.

Steve Drueck

01-05-2009, 11:05 AM

Rick I have been hearing the term "born with" a lot more in the last 2 years, especially in southern states. Its a very clear definition. I always was skeptical seeing the term "original motor" on a car at an auction or at a muscle car dealer, as it can be mis-represented by the spin meisters. There is a huge difference between THE original motor, vs AN original motor (from another vehicle). With all the rampant fraud in the car industry, clarity is very welcome. "Born with" may not be a legal term, but it is 100% clear. Just my 2 cents ...

tom406

01-06-2009, 05:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If I ever used "born with" in the court room, people would look at me like I just landed in from Mars.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been to court a few times as an appraiser over the last 15 years, and I've found the environment to be a lot less sophisticated than I'd expected or hoped. Mine are usually divorce or estate deals, and the classic car argument is a bit of a sideshow to the non-car folks in attendance.

I don't use the term much in my printed appraisals, but its a pretty clear, plain spoken way to differentiate
"an" original engine from "the" original engine. One statement to that effect to the courtroom should bring everyone up to speed, and eliminate any dismissive glances at an otherwise credible witness. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

TimG

01-07-2009, 01:34 AM

It could be the born with engine, but decked and stamped.....

How about born with and unrestamped. We really need to narrow this down.....

Mr70

01-07-2009, 01:59 AM

Or to go the other way..
While watching the news,a born again christian Mother of 5 claimed she was now "Re-Hymenated". http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

Jerry@CHP

01-07-2009, 05:54 AM

My experience has been that all juries have to be educated so they know all of the terms and language about a case.

When the jury understands that a H/P car having the original engine that was installed at the assembly plant is important, they know what a fraud case is all about.

I see some of these new terms such as "born with" being used mostly for sales ads on the internet and magazine ads. Who knows, maybe someone will "recreate" another term for original engine in years to come.

It still gets down to this. Get second and third opinions before you pull the trigger on any collectable muscle car.

Jerry

SBR

01-07-2009, 05:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It could be the born with engine, but decked and stamped.....

How about born with and unrestamped. We really need to narrow this down.....

[/ QUOTE ]Tim, thats why I like to say original motor and untouched stamp pad.