348/409 Motor

[hep1966]

I’ve been thinking about putting a 348/409 motor in the 56. What’s out there?

[WILMASBOYL78]

Calling Verne Frantz...calling Verne Frantz http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[Verne_Frantz]

John,
Sounds like a great period correct swap. You'll have to dent in the passenger side firewall near the heater for head clearance and have to run headers (orig. manifolds won't work). I think you'll have to fabricate a front frame mount for the engine, since I don't think '56s had side mounts. Some Ws had the front motor bosses drilled and tapped and others did not, so make sure you find one with the holes in front.
As much as I "play" with Ws, I don't have a ready source for motors, unfortunately. My advice would be to look for a 348 (which will save you thousands over a 409) and it will look "the part" and can be hot-rodded very well to produce axle twisting torque and a unique sound.

The best part of owning a W motor..........................the spark plugs are Toooooo easy to change http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Verne http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j320/VerneFrantz/b0d0820e.jpg

[Xplantdad]

I may know of someone here in AZ who has a "few". Would you like me to check and see??

[hep1966]

I’d appreciate any help you could give me. It is the look I am going for……… a 348 would be just fine. So the motor mounts are different. How about the bellhousing?

[Verne_Frantz]

Bellhousing bolt pattern is the same on ALL early SB, W & BB Chevys. If the side of the bell housing doesn't have a bulge for the starter, it's for the small flywheel. If it has the bulge, it's for the large 168 tooth flywheel. 348s had a block mounted starter (except the Sphi-perf '60 & '61s). The common starter had a unique snout and bolt spacing for the block (small flywheel).

Verne http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[drdave69]

How much would a complete 348 or 409 be worth? I have an aquaintance that may have one of them but I haven't looked at it.

[Verne_Frantz]

Hard question to answer Dave. Too many variables. A complete 348-335hp, 340hp 0r 350hp with all the good stuff might sell for $6-7K. A complete truck motor might sell for $6-7 hundred.

Verne http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Tommy Nolen]

If this gives you an idea, last year I sold a 348/250 and a 4 speed transmission out of a '61 Impala for $3000.00. It was a complete unit, all from the same car, complete from carb to oil pan but everything needed to be rebuilt

Tommmy

[Salvatore]

Hey John, When you are ready to do the 09 let me know. The 409 guy is about 45 minutes from you in Pottstown, Pa. No doubt about it!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[hep1966]

I am ready to find something. Everything I've chased is either sold or out of my pricerange.

[PeteLeathersac]

Try and find a good deal on a running truck motor as they're the deal especially if the 4http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif9 look is more what you're after!.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif
~ Pete

[TDW]

heres one for sale.

http://flint.craigslist.org/pts/840474878.html

[Verne_Frantz]

John,
Be wary of truck blocks unless you're planning on building a blower motor. They have 2 fly-cut wedges removed from the combustion chamber to lower compression to about 7.5. You can't make that up with different pistons.
There are some ways to recognize a truck motor externally (if it's mostly complete). The intake will be a very low-rise with extra threaded bosses near the front to mount an air brake pump. The dist. is one with a govenor and has a wide metal band around the base. The water pump is huge and the valve covers will have the 4-wire loom tacked at the middle, rather than the rear.
Good luck.

Verne http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[PeteLeathersac]

Verne,

Unlike the later MK1V passenger and truck engines being different from each other, w/ the W motors can't you mount external passenger car parts like intakes, waterpumps etc to the truck engines even though they're lower in performance internally?.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif
~ Pete

[hep1966]

Thanks for the help!

[Fast67VelleN2O]

If you went to the Impala auction earlier in the year you would have had your chance to buy every "Impala" truck 409 you could get your hand on.

[Verne_Frantz]

[ QUOTE ]
Verne,

Unlike the later MK1V passenger and truck engines being different from each other, w/ the W motors can't you mount external passenger car parts like intakes, waterpumps etc to the truck engines even though they're lower in performance internally?.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif
~ Pete

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep! You can bolt any passenger car stuff (including Z-11 if you wanted to) onto a truck block. You're still dealing with low compression and there's NO way around it unless you weld up the fly-cut wedges.
Remember, W motors have flat head surfaces, ie: no combustion chambers in the heads (except for 13cc around the valves). The combustion chamber is in the block above the cylinder bore. IT's a 16deg wedge between the top of the piston and the head.

Verne http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j320/VerneFrantz/b2160f93.jpg

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j320/VerneFrantz/3a15f734.jpg

Sorry, I forgot to resize the pictures.....

[Kim_Howie]

Type in Gasser on e-bay there is a 55 chevy with a 348 in it http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gifcheap.

[PeteLeathersac]

Quote;

Verne,

Unlike the later MK1V passenger and truck engines being different from each other, w/ the W motors can't you mount external passenger car parts like intakes, waterpumps etc to the truck engines even though they're lower in performance internally?.

~ Pete

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yep! You can bolt any passenger car stuff (including Z-11 if you wanted to) onto a truck block. You're still dealing with low compression and there's NO way around it unless you weld up the fly-cut wedges.
Remember, W motors have flat head surfaces, ie: no combustion chambers in the heads (except for 13cc around the valves). The combustion chamber is in the block above the cylinder bore. IT's a 16deg wedge between the top of the piston and the head.

Verne

-------------------------------------------

Thanks Verne!.

I yanked a good running '65 XX suffix W-motor out of a dumptruck a few years ago for my '49 Stude pickup project and like I think Hep may be too, am not as concerned about high performance as I am for simply running a W-motor under the hood!.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif
~ Pete

[John Brown]

[ QUOTE ]
Be wary of truck blocks unless you're planning on building a blower motor. They have 2 fly-cut wedges removed from the combustion chamber to lower compression to about 7.5. You can't make that up with different pistons.
Verne http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Won't most of those fly cuts go away when the block is bored?? A picture would be nice. It would help i.d. a truck block if I were to see one apart. Are those eyebrows in the last picture what you are talking about?

[Verne_Frantz]

John,
Sorry, but I don't have any pics of the truck block notches. (or externally) Maybe you might find one on the 348-409 site? The notches are very deep, maybe 1/4", so overboring won't do much to reclaim compression. You'd have to bore it almost .090" just to begin to cut into the combustion area where the notches are. That area is rough machined and a larger diameter than the finished machined cylinder wall.
The pic I posted is of a '62 409hp block (.057" over). IT was only to illustrate the swept part of the cylinder vs the wedge chamber above it.

Verne http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[PeteLeathersac]

Is this the truck block notch Verne?.

http://www.superchevy.com/features/pre1977full/sucp_0801_348_409_w_engines/photo_04.html

And they're on all truck blocks whether 348 or 409's?.

What's the whole story on the two notches in earlier blocks and one notch on the later blocks thing...two is worse?.

Do 409's always have the counterbalanced crank and the 348's the round one where the flywheel bolts on?.

And are the distributors and waterpumps W-motor only or do SB or BB ones fit?.

Thanks!.
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif
~ Pete

[Verne_Frantz]

Pete,
Not to cast any disparaging remarks toward Super Chevy, but that picture is NOT of a machined wedge in a truck block. That’s a severely damaged block from a failure. It’s a mess. Note that the cylinder next to it doesn’t have any such “notch”.

As to the other questions, I’ll respond later as accurately as I can after I recheck some references on the “notch” issue.


Verne http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Verne_Frantz]

"And they're on all truck blocks whether 348 or 409's?."

All truck blocks, whether 348 or 409 have 2 notches. Both engines were rated at 7.75:1 CR.

"What's the whole story on the two notches in earlier blocks and one notch on the later blocks thing...two is worse?."

I don't believe that's accurate. Because of the 348's smaller bore, one notch was milled to provide exhaust valve clearance. With the standard piston (low perf), that produced 9.5:1 CR. For the hi-perf 348s with compression higher than 10:1 the piston dome was modified (raised) in the wedge area which made the combustion chamber smaller. Two notches are obviously worse, because you're starting with a base 7.75 CR. Even with hi-perf pistons, I doubt you could get to 9.0:1 CR.

"Do 409's always have the counterbalanced crank and the 348's the round one where the flywheel bolts on?."

As far as I know, all 348s have a round flywheel flange on the crank and all 409s have one that's asymmetrical.

"And are the distributors and waterpumps W-motor only or do SB or BB ones fit?."

Yep, they're W-motor only, along with the oil pump drive shaft due to the shorter distributor. The water pump bearing & shaft are the same as SB though, so there's no problem having them rebuilt.

Verne http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[PeteLeathersac]

Thanks Verne!.

I appreciate the info and clarification.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif
~ Pete

[JChlupsa]

Just got this from a friend:

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="red"> Hey I just bought a motor I've known of for 20 years It's a 64 409 QB 425hp Dual quad manual trans motor Its all together and comes with 4 intakes (or I would sell motor alone) Single factory 4 barrel Inline factory dual quad M/T dual quad xram Weiand 2X6

For everything its $7500.00

Let me know, be perfect for someone with a old school impala
</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

not sure if this is a good price or ?? Verne might be better to reply to what he thinks of the engine and intakes. I did ask for numbers off the engine/intakes/carbs itc

[Salvatore]

I beleive that is a good price for that stuff. I was just discussing the 409 prices today with the master 409 man himself in Pottstown, Pa. Call him if you want. Pete (610-326-8322. There are 3 in his shop right now. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[RPOLS3]

Here is a site that has what appears to be a comparable 64 425 HP QB setup (scroll down a little) for $7,200.

http://www.409chevyperformance.com/Engines%20-%20409%20Chevy%20Performance.html

Anyone know about this guy? We have been talking to him about a date correct 62 QB block for us.

Jake

[JChlupsa]

My mistake on the 409, no carbs. This is more info on it.

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="red"> It a QB 1964 425 horse dual quad in line manual trans motor 11-1 comp., all stock, no carbs, the intakes are one 4barrel stock gm, dual quad in line stock gm, x ram M/T with linkage, 6x2 Weiand., the motor has sat for years however its complete, looking at 7500.00 for everything, been offered $5500 for the motor w/inline dual quads (I'm strongly considering it), </font>

[/ QUOTE ]

[Verne_Frantz]

Jeff, PM sent with some breakdowns. I think there's more $$ in that package.
Verne http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif