Documenting Cars

[Keith Tedford]

How do these "Experts" document cars? From my experience, you would have keep track of the car from the start to finish of the restoration. Otherwise you would have to do a fair bit of disassembly to get at the numbers. You would also need all the history from day one. Not likely to happen. Buying at an auction, to me at least, is just asking for trouble.

[HiHorse]

Its more work to document an American car, you really need to know the history on the car and if the car is well known, makes it easier. If a well known car shows up at auction with no negative stories attached, makes it easier to bid on.

Here in Canada we have GM documentation as a starting point to documenting a car, which makes it easier.

[Mr70]

Easier yes,but also to aid in deception as well.
Not to take anything away from what great service to the hobby George Z.does,but VVS also makes it easier for the criminal mind to deceive.
A vehicles assigned VIN tag,trim tag,options & point of origin are all they are documenting up there..that's it.
In this world of so many rebodies or "artfully altering" a car to reflect another,it's up to the buyer to do his homework ever moreso from a car sold new or built in Canada.
Searching past owner history,removing certain body panels to look for a hidden original VIN,or sectioning of it on a Canadian car are just as time consuming as an American sold car.

[SD 396]

[ QUOTE ]
Easier yes,but for deception as well.
Not to take anything away from what great service to the hobby George Z.does,but VVS also makes it easier for the criminal person to deceive.
The vehicles VIN#,origin,options & trim are all they are documenting up there..that's it.
In this world of so many "artfully altering" a car to reflect another,it's up to the buyer to do his homework ever moreso from a car sold new or built in Canada.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. It doesn't matter where the car is built but I think the importance of finding an original drivetrain car in the US and a build sheet carrys more importance than it does in Canada with the options right on the cowl tag. I understand that a numbers matching car is always a preferance before you shell out a lot of cash but how do you verify the car is original? Not to take anything away from the many great sites dedicated to the hobby that are available but are these sites (myself included) helping people build better fakes? I find myself limiting the information that I freely post on the internet. Don't get me wrong, I would help anyone with information but I really question the intention of the recipient. Even then, what about the next owner. Will he be the one to decieve?
I am a new member on this forum and really appreciate all the help I have received from the vast accumulated wealth of knowledge. I have been frequenting this site for many years and have to say You are a great group.
Thanks, Brad http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/youguysrock.gif

[HiHorse]

The work involved to physically verify a car is the same but boy its convenient to phone George with the VIN and within hours he's reading the build sheet to you even before you see the car. When there's a lot of vehicles claiming to be Z28's and L78's , its great to narrow down the list and save a lot of time checking out cars.

[Mr70]

True,but it's convenient for a criminal as well so you should always physically check out the car before becoming the new owner.
I think we agree that wherever a car originates from,one needs to continue to do their homework and not rely soley on one source to do it for them.

[HiHorse]

Yes, with Canadian cars the GM documentation can really blind someone but these cars should be fully scrutinized to make sure there is no monkey business, some of these cars have appeared from the dead.

[67BelAir427]

Can a car be created to match documentation? Of course it can. But U.S. origin cars can also have fake documentation. Canadian Documentation itself is bulletproof, because the original records remain in the hands of GM Historical Services. As mentioned, one phone call and the paper can be verified. You cannot do that with a POP or any other piece of paper attached to a car. Unless you happen to own a Pontiac.

[JayR]

[ QUOTE ]
A vehicles assigned VIN tag,trim tag,options & point of origin are all they are documenting up there..that's it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, you get more than that....production date, shipping date, engine type, engine suffix code, model number, dealership name and city/town, number built by model and, frequently, other tidbits George adds on, like 'this L79 Chevy II is one of 195 built (all models)in Canada in 1966.' Prior to the mid 90's, they even provided the Vehicle Shipped sheets which gave even more info, including key codes. Man, for $45 I'll take this over nothing, which is what GM in the U.S. offers.

This documentation is fantastic info for further research and verification. I got the names of every previous owner of my L79 Nova by contacting people in the town where it was sold. They also gave me the name of the deceased dealer's son who lived just 3 hours away from my home. He verified everything about the car, including the fact he'd driven it before it was sold in 1966. Even though the dealership closed in 1969, he put me in touch with former employees who still had old dealership ads, dealership pens, windshield frost scrapers and even a diecast dealer trunk name plate. Many of these items they gave to me. Talk about a goldmine! All this because I had the original dealer name and town.

There is no question that this info can be abused, as can any documentation, but it's a great service and we're very fortunate to have it. There is always the fear that it will disappear in one of the many rounds of cuts. It will be a sad day if that happens.

Bob

[Keith Tedford]

When we got the GM documentation on our COPO car in the late '80s we got a page copied from the microfilm shipping list. This is where they get the information for the information and option printout that they present you with. Neat stuff to have. Lots of other neat cars on that page as well. The key codes were also on that page and that presented a problem. Also, the information was a little sketchy in places. The dealer wasn't listed and they didn't have information on the various ZXX codes. Guys here have figured them out after seeing patterns. ZP8 was listed as special trim. ZV6 and ZN1 weren't even listed at all even though they showed up on the microfilm. The PL5 white lettered tires were listed as black wall. V48 (extra antifreeze) was incorrectly listed as V40. The dealer charged me $31.10 for a V01 HD rad which the car obviously didn't get. Mistakes happened. Having a copy of the microfilm answered all my questions. At least you had an idea what a certain VIN car came with. Neat stuff to have for sure but it is just part of the overall puzzle.