GM Facts and Fiction [Archive] - The Supercar Registry

Late BrakeU2

11-19-2008, 09:28 PM

Robots don't need a pension,make workmans comp claims,get hung over or have quality control issues. This has been twenty years in the making.
I say if the big three dissapear,massive tariffs are in order,immediately! It's not the fault of the foreign auto makers,they just need to pay heavily the piper if domestic mfgs dissapear because they will have 100% of a market on foreign soil. Almost like UAE and oil.

Paying unskilled labor $77 an hour to install dashboards has taken it's toll. A strong arm union coupled with corporate arrogance has gotten it to this point. Tough call as to what the correct soulution is..gonna be like the old Fram pay me now or pay me later scenario either way.

x Baldwin Motion

11-19-2008, 09:28 PM

A similar post was shown to me yesterday at the local GM dealer;

This is an article found in the Detroit News
************************************************** **

Myth #1: Nobody buys their vehicles.

Reality: General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC sold 8.5 Million vehicles in the United States last year and millions more around the world. GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the United States last year and holds a U.S. lead over Toyota of about 560,000 so far this year. Globally, GM in 2007 remained the world's largest automaker, selling 9,369,524 vehicles worldwide -- about 3,000 more than Toyota.

Ford outsold Honda by about 850,000 and Nissan by more than 1.3 Million vehicles in the United States last year

Chrysler sold more vehicles here than Nissan and Hyundai combined in 2007 and so far this year.

MYTH #2: They build unreliable junk.

Reality: The creaky, leaky vehicles of the 1980's and '90s are long gone. Consumer Reports recently found that "Ford's reliability is now on par with good Japanese automakers." The independent J.D. Power Initial Quality Study scored Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, Ford, GMC, Mercury, Pontiac and Lincoln brands' overall quality as high or higher than that of Acura, Audi, BMW, Honda, Nissan, Scion, Volkswagon and Volvo.

Power rated the Chevrolet Malibu the highest-quality midsize sedan. Both the Malibu and Ford Fusion scored better than the Honda Accord and Toyota Camery.

MYTH #3: They build gas-guzzlers.

Reality: All fo the Detriot Three build midsize sedans the Environmental Protection Agency rates at 29-33 miles per gallon on the highway. The most fuel-efficient Chevrolet Malibu gets 33 m.p.g. on the highway, 2 m.p.g. better than the best Honda Accord. The most fuel-efficient Ford Focus has the same highway fuel economy ratings as the most efficient Toyota Corolla. The most fuel-efficient Chevrolet Cobalt has the same city fuel economy and better highway fuel economy than the most efficient non-hybrid Honda Civic. A recent study by Edmunds.com found that the Chevrolet Aveo subcompact is the least expensive car to buy and operate.

MYTH #4: They already got a $25-billion bailout.

Reality: None of that money has been lent out and may not be for more than a year. In addition, it can, by law, be used only to invest in future vehicles and technology, so it has no effect on the shortage of operating cash the companies face because of the economic slowdown that's killing them now.

MYTH #5: GM, Ford and Chrysler are idiots for investing in pickups and SUVs.

Reality: The domestic companies' lineup has been truck-heavy, but Toyota, Nissan, Mercedes-Benz and BMW have all spent billions of dollars on pickups and SUVs because are a large and historically profitable part of the auto industry. The most fuel-efficient full-size pickups from GM, Ford and Chrysler all have highers EPA fuel economy ratings than Toyota and Nissan's full-size pickups.

MYTH #6: They don't build hybrids.

Reality: The Detroit Three got into the hybrid business late, but Ford and GM each now offers more hybrid models than Honda or Nissan, with several more due to hit the road in early 2009.

** They were still not giving cars away or offering the usual cut throat deals I am famous for getting. I think they will soon.

Keith Tedford

11-19-2008, 09:42 PM

Back in the sixties a family member bought nothing without consulting her consumer reports. I started reading them too. Then the 70 series tires came out. The design was so bad that you couldn't get 10K miles out of them. Too much tire pressure, the centre wore. Too little and the outsides wore. When Consumer's Report gave these tires a rave review, I never read another one of these magazines. Still don't. Many magazine articles today appear to be nothing more than infomercials for products, just like the tv car shows. American magazines are starting to acknowledge that the American/Canadian cars are good. Up here the big three are still getting knocked. Reality doesn't seem to matter.

Kim_Howie

11-19-2008, 10:25 PM

Most Jap cars have a 3yr 36,000 warrenty. Take alook at the GM,Ford & Chys warrenty.100,000 10 yr. Who backs there car!!!

Salvatore

11-19-2008, 10:27 PM

WOW Keith, we must be neighbors. I used to always read consumer reports. It seems to be they do alot of bashing of American goods. I know what they said about my Chevy Astro van of the eighties http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif but we got 136,000 out of my 1986 and 134,000 out of my 1994 Astro van, carting 4 boys around too. I am sure CR does not really care for my 1998 GMC pickup but after 178,000 miles I changed the motor because I did not think a leaky head gasket was worth doing with that many miles. Other than that NO problems. But I bet that got a bad write-up because maybe the lighter did not work or the door pins needed to be replaced. No matter what you have you have to take care of things. There are some really junkie products out there but not just from the USA.

ORIGLS6

11-19-2008, 10:28 PM

If you believe everything the "Media" tells you, you're a fool. All facets of media, be it TV, radio, newspapers, magazines (even CR), are businesses. Businesses compete for customers. To get customers, they tell you what you want to hear.

Hiding in the bait is a hook!

And BTW Keith, this IS NOT directed toward you, or any ONE person in particular.

P.J.

11-19-2008, 10:49 PM

Did you know that the big three wages account for only 7% of the cars value. So how could the wages of the union members be the problem.The theiving bast---s who were allowed to create this financial melt down,and the oil price gouging and the white house all conspired in the name of capitalism at its worst.
Do some of you remember the 70s when we had to line up for 5 gallons of gas!! The world was running out of gas, the sky is falling, the sky is falling. well we all fell for it
gas prices went through the roof and shortly there after
we had a recession thanks to the oil manopoly and the white house who let it happen. So all of us workers then want to blame the union member for creating this problem for the car companies??????? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif
Dont let them get away with it this time
blame the people who did it and put them in jail. If a union member had created this meltdown what do you think they would do to him or her EH
PJ

Chevy454

11-19-2008, 10:56 PM

Our rural mail carriers went through an "Asian" phase for a while...if it didn't say Toyota or Nissan on it, then they wouldn't own it. But, they all learned after having to do the same maintenance and fix the same trouble spots on the foreign trucks that *just maybe* it was the 6-days a week, 100+ miles per/day, backwoods, gravel road, start/stop mail routes that was the problem and not the "crap domestic vehicles" as they'd originally thought! I think they're all driving S10s/Rangers, and a few of them drive '80s model Caprice/Impalas/LTDs...

BTW: isn't it *funny* that Congress cut a check to the banking industry for $750 BILLION without even so much as a whimper, and yet they're beating up the reps from the Big3 on Capitol Hill, talking about stipulations/strings attached/restructuring/etc, all over $25 billion?

ANDY M

11-19-2008, 11:08 PM

Rob, maybe this will help explain why the Big 3 is getting beat up on: http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=224543

Corporate jets are a perq, not a must have item. When a CEO making $25 Million a year flys to DC in a corporate jet that runs $3000/hr to fly, plus what they pay to staff and service it, this does not make good press. Ford could easily find four guys at $2 million a year to do a better job, and save the difference.

COPO 70 RS/Z28

11-19-2008, 11:19 PM

Is it true that there is close to a 40% difference in worker wages & bennies between GM and the ricers.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

Chevy454

11-19-2008, 11:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Corporate jets are a perq, not a must have item. When a CEO making $25 Million a year flys to DC in a corporate jet that runs $3000/hr to fly, plus what they pay to staff and service it, this does not make good press. Ford could easily find four guys at $2 million a year to do a better job, and save the difference.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hey, I'm in full agreement with that...but we're talking about 3 companies asking for a combined $25 billion...while the jokers who asked for *and recieved* the $750 billion are on what, lavish party/vacation number 3 now? Don't get me wrong, the Big3 could use a big dose of fat trimming, but it's looking to me like Congress couldn't care less about them going under, but were all about helping out their banking buddies...kinda makes a guy wonder in *whose* bank account is that $750 BILLION actually gonna end up in, huh? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Chevy454

11-19-2008, 11:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Is it true that there is close to a 40% difference in worker wages & bennies between GM and the ricers.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think CNN said this morning $73/hour @ GM (labor+legacy costs) as opposed to $48/hour @ Toyota...

king_midas

11-19-2008, 11:38 PM

The true issue is that they have no plan for the money.

Say they get $25B by yelling loud enough... What do they do with it? They will still have all the problems that they had before they had the money; misguided products, union issues, etc... Giving them money now will not change their competitive position or their competitive environment-- It would just be good money chasing bad.

In reality, it's possible that the best thing that happens is that they go Ch. 11, forcing a house-cleaning and review of overall corporate policies/practices that has been needed for four decades.

Chevy454

11-19-2008, 11:47 PM

They can *not* go Chapter 11, the credit market simply isn't there any more...that leaves Chapter 7, which is LIQUIDATION.

I think if they could limp to 2010 (which is when they get out from under the UAW's healthcare/trust agreement) then with a little reworking they could survive...but it's looking like our Congress would rather the Big3 fold, and we simply import everything else for the rest of our lives (assuming anyone left has any $$$ to do buy anything!).

And as for house cleaning, how about those strokes in Congress & the banking industry that forced the better part of this hand? I won't hold my breath on that... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

COPO 70 RS/Z28

11-19-2008, 11:56 PM

It would seem to me that a combination of labor, it's associated costs and over regulation are most likely the main culprits in placing the company in an uncompetitive situation. I agree that there has always been destructive competition coming from overseas but I think that the GM business model needs an overhaul. I think their products are up to snuff but the internal workings of the organization are most likely set in the twentieth not the twenty first century. If the business is to survive there will need to be give on both sides, labor and management. I think the UAW will need to come to the realization that moving forward new hires compensation will need to be placed on an even pace with the competition. Maybe the bail out if any should be focused on control of the existing health and pension plans in an attempt to place overhead at a more manageable rate. As workers retire etc. new workers would come in on a more competitive basis.

Even if you have a very good product if the cost is prohibitive your market will not be very dynamic.

Cost is Cost, if the products are reasonably equal cost is the only determining factor.

I have always thought that CR was biased towards imports.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

Late BrakeU2

11-20-2008, 12:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
WOW Keith, we must be neighbors. I used to always read consumer reports. It seems to be they do alot of bashing of American goods. I know what they said about my Chevy Astro van of the eighties http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif but we got 136,000 out of my 1986 and 134,000 out of my 1994 Astro van, carting 4 boys around too. I am sure CR does not really care for my 1998 GMC pickup but after 178,000 miles I changed the motor because I did not think a leaky head gasket was worth doing with that many miles. Other than that NO problems. But I bet that got a bad write-up because maybe the lighter did not work or the door pins needed to be replaced. No matter what you have you have to take care of things. There are some really junkie products out there but not just from the USA.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had a 1990 GMC 4X4 that went 500k with pretty much zero failures.. couple of trans rebuilds never took a valve cover off in sixteen years.. didn't burn any oil!. We make good powertrains,fit and finish is another story but bottom line our products have been built well for quite some time but the stigma remains.

We didn't catch the memo about plant modernization. Robotics have been around for decades,domestic mfgs were nappin on those same as the looming CAFE standards that are coming due.

There's one word that can sum up this whole deal-from the auto execs ,mortgage industry,hedge funds,UAW and UAE. It's called greed,and it's killed this country in the short term. When these SOB CEO's are effectively sucking their golden parachute funds from retired people's 401k's it's no wonder we are at this point. Do unto others than split. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

10/10_RS/Z28

11-20-2008, 12:23 AM

We as americans are going to have to swallow a tough pill soon. We can't "socialize" I mean save everybody. If they keep bailing everybody out a loaf of bread is going to cost $20 bucks soon. Let them go government backed ch. 11 and eliminate the union, the crazy $80 dollar average hourly wage, the $105,000 to eliminate somebody, the not being able to fire or layoff people, and the crazy retirement these goons are paying. Its time to get real people! I had a neighbor that worked for Ford and he would brag on how lazy his day was and how much he got paid. He said they read magazines and played cards while they would simply move parts around. I work to hard for my money to go to losers like that. See ya UAW, GM, Chrysler, & Ford!!!!

Late BrakeU2

11-20-2008, 12:43 AM

And here ya have it " I'm o.k. with where i am"

If these guy's were on the Titanic they would be pushing women and children off the lifeboats-sure ain't Lee Iacoca!
(and in japan they would have already commited suicide for their disgrace)

11/19/08

The chief executives of General Motors Corp. (GM) and Ford Motor Co. (F) said Wednesday they wouldn't accept a $1 salary in exchange for government aid to their imperiled companies, as the head of the former Chrysler Corp. did a generation ago. During a hearing Wednesday, a member of the House Financial Services Committee told Rick Wagoner of GM and Alan Mulally of Ford that reducing their annual salaries to $1 would be an important symbolic gesture as they lobby for $25 billion in loans funded by tax dollars. Chrysler's Lee Iacocca worked for that wage when his company was bailed out by the government in the 1980s. "I'm willing to do what I've been doing," Wagoner said, saying he has already accepted a significant wage decrease and given up other forms of compensation. But he stopped short of saying he would accept a $1 salary. Mulally said: "I understand your point about the symbol. But I think, not just for me, but we're trying to fill a skilled and motivated team." Pressed on whether he would work for $1 a year, Mulally said, "I think I'm OK where I am." The chief executive of Chrysler LLC, Robert Nardelli, had said Tuesday he would be willing to work under that salary as a condition for a federal bailout package.

1969l78

11-20-2008, 01:01 AM

Robert Nardelli can manage on $1 a year. I think he got $200 million when he left Home depot. Then they all flew to washington on there private jets. How much did that cost there companies. Fly coach on a normal airline to save thousands. These guys do not get it, I will not shed a tear if they go under. They did it to themselves, just my .02

1969z280

11-20-2008, 01:08 AM

Nardelli is a jerk who destroyed Home Depot. They used to be my largest client and had one of the most successful management teams in history. First to $500 Million, First to $1 Billion, etc. He dismantled the entire team (fired them) and brought in his own people, then drove the ship into the ground and left to take his new position at what was left of Chrysler. He's not a car guy and I don't know how he keeps landing on his feet instead of his a$$. His wallet must be too big to fall backwards. Just my $.02

Salvatore

11-20-2008, 02:18 AM

Yes, you are right, something has to be done. A Union overhaul AFTER a management overhaul is a good thing! Everybody has to be accounted for. Its like saying every doctor is taking advantage of the system and every school teacher is doing the same. 10/10 RSZ do you think they (UAW Workers) get $80.00 an hour in the envelope for a 40 hour work week? I don't think so I believe its there whole package. Pensions and benefits were set up years and years ago when times were good. Why pay Union dues if there was not going to be a better way of life coming from your membership? They may now have to take a slight reduction in some benefits but its not the workers fault that their pensions were good for the last 25 years and now because of the economy they should not receive their check. The investments their pensions were in is the culprit. If Wall Street, Corporate greed and unfair trade practices were not prevelant we would not be talking about this. There are many Union workers that make $10-$12.00 an hour in this country. Not all make what you think they make because they are in the Union. Sam

GREEN4SPDSS

11-20-2008, 02:33 AM

Thanks Sam I agree....Where I work is union. New hires get around 14 a hr and less healthcare. They are Slowly taking more and more away every contract. I was on Strike Last year. They treated us Like criminals.....Because we are Union.

TDW

11-20-2008, 02:53 AM

The UAW members have been paying into their own pension plan forever. That should not be taken away from them. I just don't think it's right to blame all of this on the workers. I live in Flint Michigan, birthplace of the UAW. Some of the workers have done NOTHING for years. I have said for years that GM needs to close the doors, lock them and start over. Tell the workers if you want a job, you will come to work every day, do an honest 8 hours work for 8 hours pay. No playing cards, sleeping, hanging out at the local tavern, no going home after 4 hours and having someone else punch you out, no doubleing up on jobs to get done in 2 hours, and lots more. I have worked in some of the Plants as an outside contractor. The waste of time and materials is astounding. When they did a changeover at the Truck Plant, there were BOXCARS of brand new materials thrown away. I saw it with my own eyes. Millions of dollars worth thrown away. Management told them to get rid of it. Some of the Supervisors could not operate a lemaonade stand. A complete restructure is needed. And them spending a million or so a year to pay for Viagra is just flat out rediculous.

10/10_RS/Z28

11-20-2008, 02:55 AM

SLIGHT REDUCTION!!!! PLEASE! They want your money to fund one of the worst business plans in the history of man. A freakin monkey could see this is a recipe for disaster. The senators pointed out that they ALL are profitable in all of the other countries that they sell in but the United States. The union is the problem not part of the solution!!! It must be disbanded for there to be any progress or we are pi$$ing good money after bad. That s.o.b. UAW guy should be strung up along with those other three. If they want tax payer $$$ anything on the books (anything) prior to when they get funds is up for renegotiation and or termination. that is the way it should be. Take what is offered or face the music of having nothing. Major overhaul and complete restructuring is the only way, because this is just the beginning. Start giving them money and they will be back again and again. Those senators know that and stated it over and over. I never heard how they anticipated paying it back either. Remember it is a loan not free. Yeah right!!!!!

JRSully

11-20-2008, 03:06 AM

One of my brother's (pilot at USAIR) got HAMMERED when they went bankrupt. Before Bankruptcy: Salary - around $250-260k, nice pension set up, worked (flew) about 75 hrs/month, retire at 60 AFTER Bankruptcy: making about half of the old salary, THEY COMPLETLY WIPED OUT HIS PENSION (it was way underfunded by the way)replaced it with a piece of garbage retiremint plan that MIGHT be 1/3 of what he would have had when he is ready to retire and now working 90 hrs/month. Pissed off, off course he is, BUT he has adjusted to the cards that were delt him and living with it. His union became totally useless and is still rather useless to this day. He realizes there really is no other work out there in his field to get him back to that money and always thought he was probably paid too much money back then. If the big 3 do not bring labor to at least the same as the counterparts in the South, no amount of money will fix it. The age of "entitlements" is over in organized labor. JMHO

WILMASBOYL78

11-20-2008, 03:31 AM

Well....I make my living off the car business, such as it is http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif and these are difficult times!! Today I was at a Saturn client and saw the people in the waiting lounge watching the Congressional Bail Out Show on TV http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif Dealer and consumer confidence is the lowest that I have ever seen....and it will get worse before it gets better.

By the way...where can I sign up for some of this government bail out money http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

NovaMob03

11-20-2008, 04:05 AM

The ability to lease cars cheap has also put a lot of great used cars back on the market. Why buy new when you can own a low mile vehicle for half the cost?
At 54 I have yet to buy a new vehicle...and probably never will http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

69 Post Sedan

11-20-2008, 04:12 AM

If anyone would like to try a "non-skilled" job for a week, try it. It sucks. The company has made it so that there is little time between cars/trucks. It's not like it used to be when they could read a magazine between vehicles. The workers now are getting carpal tunnel at an early age because of the work they do!

As far as wages, the workers have been giving concessions for a couple of contracts now. Their insurance has gone up and coverage has gone down.

Check out and see how much Toyota puts back into the United States education. From what I was told GM puts a lot of money back into the education system and Toyota puts nothing back in!

If they don't get the money, it tells me that Wall Street is more important than Main Street. IMO http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

Salvatore

11-20-2008, 04:16 AM

Well said!

COPO 70 RS/Z28

11-20-2008, 05:00 AM

Ya know the problem with these pensions is a lot of the old time pensions are actually owned by the company not the individual. I think the company can show the pension on the books as an asset. The problem is (US AIR, United Etc.) If the company goes down the pension goes with it not to the employees. So if this is the case with the BIG 3, the line guys etc better be careful they could end up with "0"

I dont have a pension, I've always had to save for my retirement and plan for the future. No retirement health care etc. but I think a guy signs up for a deal he should get that deal weather he's a line guy or a fat cat. But I also beleive in loyalty and doing the best job I can and taking my lumps if I screw up. I think part of the problem is there is no loyalty from the bottom to the top in this deal, it's every man for himself and it's been that way for a long time. I could be wrong, but from a guy looking in from the outside ..........

10/10 RS/Z28 The problem really a combination of things.

Most of the blame for all of this lies at the feet of the Government and the only was to solve this is term limits. The only incentive these guys have is to get re-elected, there greed is just as bad as everyone elses just a lot more dangerous.

Im not going to get political this is not the place but I think you know what I mean.

71SSNova

11-20-2008, 05:11 AM

I am a laid off Chrysler employee, started at the Jeep plant in Toledo back in 2000.
I’ve seen both sides of the coin as my previous job of 17 years was in a non-union factory. Although there are several things I do not like about the union, I respect what they have done for everyone, including non-union employees.

1. Without the wages the union has negotiated, most non union employees would not make the wages they make. The non union employer has had to pay a decent wage to maintain decent employees.
2. Yes, there are some folks in auto plants that do little but the seniority has gotten them there and I‘ve seen those jobs in the non-union facilities as well. Seniority counts for something.
3. Most of the time, they talking about us maintenance folks. Here’s the fact on maintenance, if we’re working, then most likely the plant is not making vehicles and thereby losing major money. Maintenance is an evil necessity.
4. And let me tell you about the new assembly jobs at Jeep. I had to work one for a year and half to maintain a job. I lost 35 lbs in the first three months, I’m overweight but not that bad. I had to have a massage at least every two weeks; most everyone I know did the same. My hands hurt because of the torque guns and other jobs. If the line did not break down, out of a ten ½ hour day, we had 50 minutes off. DON”T tell me the people in an auto factory don’t earn their money.
5. As sc69sam mentioned about the pensions, a lot of money goes to retirees in the big three. The union agreed to take over the healthcare (yes, the big 3 are paying a good chunk of money for it) but when it is done, the big 3 will have some relief. BTW, it was reported that Toyota is now experiencing the same problem as the big 3 since they have been around long enough now that they are getting a good amount of retirees.
6. Workers there want their job and the mentality has changed to know quality means a job and most people feel that way. Problem is, we could only put on the parts we have and the arrogance of the salary folks is quite large.
7. It is true the big 3 pay scale is larger than the imports. There is still some truth that the unions try to create more jobs that needed. But then I’ve seen the same from the salary side, why I had three different maintenance supervisors on the same job, I’ll never know. It’s a fact that a union factory can cost almost 25% more to run than equivalent non-union factory. Too many non production union people (stewards, chief stewards, chairman, committeemen and appointed people) running around trying to justify their existence.
8. FYI, in the last contract, Sept. 2007, the union agreed to new employees starting wage of $14 and will increase to a max of $20 over a four or five year period. Also we took a wage freeze for the entire contract, 3 more years to go, we do get a yearly bonus.

Something else to think about, this is not just about the big 3. This is also about every manufacture that provides part to the auto industry. If the big 3 goes belly up, a lot of these folks do also and there will be many people collecting unemployment. Then after unemployment dries up, just imagine what will happen then. Did someone say depression?

rpoz11

11-20-2008, 05:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The UAW members have been paying into their own pension plan forever. That should not be taken away from them. I just don't think it's right to blame all of this on the workers. I live in Flint Michigan, birthplace of the UAW. Some of the workers have done NOTHING for years. I have said for years that GM needs to close the doors, lock them and start over. Tell the workers if you want a job, you will come to work every day, do an honest 8 hours work for 8 hours pay. No playing cards, sleeping, hanging out at the local tavern, no going home after 4 hours and having someone else punch you out, no doubleing up on jobs to get done in 2 hours, and lots more.

[/ QUOTE ]

We need to look at what the UNION representatives see before we jump here, please.

Would like to invite a UAW business representative to share what these members go through.

Their protection is for jobs, and when you continue to tool up more robotic systems, jobs disappear.

Question:
Do we know of any concessions negotiated to change what retirement contributions are in place, or what pension concessions considered or enacted?

Have they ever reduced the amount of what new hires receive; with less contract strength, coverage, health packages that the career workers are getting???

At the rate of layoffs and jobs lost, what is the percentage of $75.00 per hour workers left that are guaranteed that rate?

We really need to see the remaning numbers reflective to what the current contracts, regionally, gaurantee.

I can assume, that any US Federal Gov't. monetary assistance will include UNION contract restructuring!

Expect wage freezes... or other raise concessions,
in relationship with the current contract existing, to be considered, rewritten and/or forced if they are to continue as a UNION shop.

The UAW will continue to exist, but with a much different future job contract in place!
They will have to concede in order to save their JOBS!!!!

MrsBillyBobcat

11-20-2008, 07:25 AM

427TJ

11-20-2008, 10:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
BTW: isn't it *funny* that Congress cut a check to the banking industry for $750 BILLION without even so much as a whimper, and yet they're beating up the reps from the Big3 on Capitol Hill, talking about stipulations/strings attached/restructuring/etc, all over $25 billion?

[/ QUOTE ]

When Henry Paulson came begging to congress two months ago he said that the 700B was for buying up the bad debt ("restructuring") of Wall Street banks. Then the banks simply kept the money (and continued to pay dividends and cororate bonuses and compensation) and Paulson's response was that they had changed their minds about how to allocate the 700B. But wait a minute there Hank, that's not what you said the money was for and Paulson basically shrugged. Nope, not a peep out of anyone. Outrage? HA! Well, wait until January 21st 2009 and then the "outrage" will come.

The Big 3 just wants in on this massive government propping-up of our collapsing economy. It'll be the credit card companies soon and then the insurace companies and then the airlines and on and on it will go. This is what the government and the Treasury Department truly exists for: the bailing-out of big business when big business steers itself into the iceberg.

Unreal

11-20-2008, 10:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The Big 3 just wants in on this massive government propping-up of our collapsing economy. It'll be the credit card companies soon and then the insurace companies and then the airlines and on and on it will go. This is what the government and the Treasury Department truly exists for: the bailing-out of big business when big business steers itself into the iceberg.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but when will it trickle down to the resistance welder controls manufacturers? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Kim_Howie

11-20-2008, 11:20 PM

NO insurance co. went under during the great depresion. No insurance co. will go under this time. We are regulated out the a$$.

Late BrakeU2

11-21-2008, 01:21 AM

This is the end of the modern roman empire,tommorrow is going to be brutal.

I could only take about 10 minutes of this lifelong malingerer whining on and on about how the auto unions are 'mistreated', and about the 'anti-union' sentiment in Washington.

Recent statistics show that while the average American worker makes around $28/hr with benefits, the average union worker makes $75/hr. If you have never been a member of any union, you have no idea how much waste there is inside, particularly the blue-collar unions.

I watched the entire charade by this UAW Butterfinger-despite his continued butchering of the English language, and references to the 'in-cen-ta-tives' everyone else in the world got but them.

Not one single word about what the union could do for the big, 3--not one word.Good news is that the 30% of Americans that live below the poverty level are fine, no where to go, but the middle class are toast!!

What are the illegal's going to do??

Hylton

11-21-2008, 02:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Ya know the problem with these pensions is a lot of the old time pensions are actually owned by the company not the individual. I think the company can show the pension on the books as an asset. The problem is (US AIR, United Etc.) If the company goes down the pension goes with it not to the employees. So if this is the case with the BIG 3, the line guys etc better be careful they could end up with "0"

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you meant to say pensions are shown as liabilities on company books and so pensioners become another creditor in the event that the company declares bankruptcy. If GM goes Chapter 7, pensioners will lose everything. If GM goes Chapter 11, pensioners will probably get less then what they are getting now if anything at all.

JRSully

11-21-2008, 04:24 AM

You think the DEFICIT will even be an issue once Obama takes over.? It will be SO BLOWN OUT that cutting it down and/or addressing it won't even be an afterthought for the next President, see everybody tomorrow afternoon at VF, safe travels to all that are going. SULLY

rpoz11

11-21-2008, 05:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This is the end of the modern roman empire,tommorrow is going to be brutal.

I could only take about 10 minutes of this lifelong malingerer whining on and on about how the auto unions are 'mistreated', and about the 'anti-union' sentiment in Washington.

Recent statistics show that while the average American worker makes around $28/hr with benefits, the average union worker makes $75/hr. If you have never been a member of any union, you have no idea how much waste there is inside, particularly the blue-collar unions.

Not one single word about what the union could do for the big, 3--not one word.Good news is that the 30% of Americans that live below the poverty level are fine, no where to go, but the middle class are toast!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Outscourcing.

I think that I suggested earlier somewhere here that it's the employer's responsibility to manage the union worker you seem so against here.

Decades of Union involvement provided whoever is left today with the $75 per hour rates they get.

Don't blame todays current UAW hourlys for what is happening in Detroit.

If management so chose to manage these employees with more scrutiny, I am sure the production results of work would go up.

I don't work at any of these plants but maybe the question of responsibility to the downfall here lies in the people who manage and make the decisions.

And, if we could get our credit markets to open up easier financing, that would be a start....not to leave out people being employed to qualify wouldn't hurt either.

Since I see that you are also a local, what have you seen as the result of McDonell/Douglas-Boeing in our area???

Go to just one LB swap meet and those results stare us right in our faces.

It is my firm belief that if we can live in this country, we can certainly employee our citizens with manufacturing jobs if our government could give our company's the ability to operate here more affordably.
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

kwhizz

11-21-2008, 04:19 PM

It is my firm belief that if we can live in this country, we can certainly employee our citizens with manufacturing jobs if our government could give our company's the ability to operate here more affordably.

Bingo!!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif......The Key word in that statement is "Citizens".........But......That's another story

Ken http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

COPO 70 RS/Z28

11-21-2008, 05:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It is my firm belief that if we can live in this country, we can certainly employee our citizens with manufacturing jobs if our government could give our company's the ability to operate here more affordably.

Bingo!!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif......The Key word in that statement is "Citizens".........But......That's another story

Ken http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

Chevy454

11-21-2008, 05:35 PM

Welp, Congress said "no bailout without a plan" and then dismissed for Thanksgiving...so, how many of those Congressmen do you reckon are flying home on commercial airlines? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

firstgenaddict

11-21-2008, 07:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Most of the blame for all of this lies at the feet of the Government and the only was to solve this is term limits. The only incentive these guys have is to get re-elected, their greed is just as bad as everyone elses just a lot more dangerous.

Im not going to get political this is not the place but I think you know what I mean.

[/ QUOTE ]

Farmer, Miner, Mechanic, Machinist, Lawyer...
Which of the above trades/professions and all fruits from it could be eliminated with the least detriment to society?

Term limits are good in that they deal with the problem of quid pro quo in that politicians feel beholden to groups who give them money, however, we also need to get the Lawyers out of both houses of Congress...

Why should a politician who is a lawyer be able to write more laws? Forbidden Fruit anyone?

Lawyers already control one entire branch of Government.. the Judiciary... why should Lawyers write laws, practice the laws they write and judge the laws they practice?
If anyone knows of another profession which has more influence on the lives and viability of everyone in the country, please hold your silence no more...

"——when you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing—when you see that money is flowing to those who deal, not in goods, but in favors when you see that men get richer by graft and by pull than by work, and your laws don't protect you against them, but protect them against you—when you see corruption being rewarded and honesty becoming a self-sacrifice—you may know that your society is doomed... "
-Atlas Shrugged 1957 Ayn Rand

firstgenaddict

11-21-2008, 07:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It is my firm belief that if we can live in this country, we can certainly employee our citizens with manufacturing jobs if our government could give our company's the ability to operate here more affordably.

Bingo!!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif......The Key word in that statement is "Citizens".........But......That's another story

Ken http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Until people realize that MANUFACTURING BUILDS WEALTH... we are doomed... manufactured products are more valuable than the sum costs of the raw materials used to produce the product. It is the human mind which added the value and built the wealth.

Johnny Horsepower

11-21-2008, 09:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
NO insurance co. went under during the great depresion. No insurance co. will go under this time. We are regulated out the a$$.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, but AIG had to be bailed out after too much exposure to bad debt. The reserve requirements are much stricter for insurance, because of the promises they have to keep.

I work for the largest mutual insurance company in the country; New York Life.
Being a mutual company, means you can steer your ship more conservatively, because you serve the policy holders who own the company, not stockholders who want short term gain/results.
We are in excellent shape.

John

ps. I have spent the last 18 years in the U.S. treasuries pit. I have stared at price boards and screens all day. (I am posting from the floor right now) So I am little closer to what is going on then most.
It is definitely scary......... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

John Brown

11-21-2008, 09:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
"——when you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing—when you see that money is flowing to those who deal, not in goods, but in favors when you see that men get richer by graft and by pull than by work, and your laws don't protect you against them, but protect them against you—when you see corruption being rewarded and honesty becoming a self-sacrifice—you may know that your society is doomed... "
-Atlas Shrugged 1957 Ayn Rand

[/ QUOTE ]

For any that haven't read <u>ATLAS SHRUGGED</u>, there is no need to read it now..... It is about to come true, like it or not.

ANDY M

11-22-2008, 01:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"——when you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing—when you see that money is flowing to those who deal, not in goods, but in favors when you see that men get richer by graft and by pull than by work, and your laws don't protect you against them, but protect them against you—when you see corruption being rewarded and honesty becoming a self-sacrifice—you may know that your society is doomed... "
-Atlas Shrugged 1957 Ayn Rand

[/ QUOTE ]

For any that haven't read <u>ATLAS SHRUGGED</u>, there is no need to read it now..... It is about to come true, like it or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

As the resident English Major here, I feel I shoud jump in and offer this link, which is worth a look:
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Ayn+Rand+Atlas+Shrugged
Think of it as a sort of online Cliffs Notes. At 1000 pages, this book is not an easy read for the average gearhead, with all due respect.
Since I started this mess, what has happened to steer this thread to Ayn Rand? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif Aren't we getting a little esoteric here? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
The anger of one individual can be the motivation for many, like the first pebble that starts a landslide. I would suggest calling your Congressman with your suggestions and opinions. It just might make you feel like you tried to do something. JMHO http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

firstgenaddict

11-22-2008, 03:46 AM

I ran a regional distribution center in Columbus OH, we were non-union, however it seemed as though it was a union shop...
"That's not my job",
"I am not delivering to that customer",
"That's not my normal route so I'm not running it",
"I am not helping to unload the trucks" are just a few of many moronic statements my employees would spout off soon after I took over...
can you guess what happened to EVERYONE of the idiots who engaged their mouths before their BRAINS... WALKING PAPERS... after 3 dismissals in 5 days employee moral increased and the remaining did all the work with fewer employees the dist center was profitable with-in 2 months and everyone got bonuses and a raise!

I would have never contemplated telling my employer what I was or was not going to do, my belief has always been that my employer is paying me to do whatever they tell me they want done, doesn't matter if I'm an executive and they want me sweeping the floor.
As far as I am concerned Subordination is grounds for dismissal... you have to nip that kinda crap in the bud or else the rest of the employees get "ideas".