Survivor ?????

[farone]

Looking for people's opinions of: "What is considered a survivor car" http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[x Baldwin Motion]

[ QUOTE ]
Looking for people's opinions of: "What is considered a survivor car" http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Looking for people's opinions

Oh Boy!! Let's get some popcorn and another log on the fire!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif


survivor- untouched original. see Charlies Camaro http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/CharleySucks.gif

[Mr BB Chevy]

My opinion.... lol. i had too..

http://www.dragracers.org/2008/york08.jpg

[daleone3]

original paint, original panels, born with driveline.
That to me is the ONLY definition of a survivor.

[pSYCo]

DEFINATELY original panels and at least 75% paint ( legit )...if a driveline piece has been changed, ( block, trans, dif. ) THERE BETTER BE PAPER !!!...what is BLOOMINGTON GOLD'S (tm) deffinition?.....something like 75% in 4 catagories ? ( body, engine compartment, interior, undercarriage ) ....I think.....

[Born30YrsLate]

Any thing that still runs after Dru gets done taking it down the track... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[mockingbird812]

Well Frank, fortunately this NOT http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif a contentious issue....



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v697/mockingbird812/popcorn.gif

[TDW]

[ QUOTE ]
original paint, original panels, born with driveline.
That to me is the ONLY definition of a survivor.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep.

[HiHorse]

[ QUOTE ]
original paint, original panels, born with driveline.
That to me is the ONLY definition of a survivor.

[/ QUOTE ]
I would also include Vin must match hidden ones, and trim Tag must be original to VIN and instrument cluster original to VIN

[firstgenaddict]

I think it is in 3 of 4 catergories but I may be mistaken... I have not been into vettes in near 20 years...

[x Baldwin Motion]

From the stuffy http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gifvettedudes with matching cap and shirt site;

http://www.bloomingtongold.com/images/BlmGold_2007-0583.jpg

Getting SURVIVOR® Certified documents the standard for unrestored vehicles. It means that a panel of judges have certified that the car meets these requirements:

*Is over 20 years old.
*Can pass a road test over 20 miles
*Remains over 50% unrestored, un-refinished, or unaltered.
*Retains finishes good enough to use as a color guide for restoration of a car just like it

Judges inspect only four components: Exterior, Interior, Engine Compartment and Chassis. Cars must pass at least three of these four categories in order to become SURVIVOR Certified.
http://www.bloomingtongold.com/inc.php?link=survivor

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gifThose standards are extremely lax in my opinion. I don't believe many here would call cars in that category "unrestored"! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

[firstgenaddict]

[ QUOTE ]
From the stuffy http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gifvettedudes with matching cap and shirt site;

[/ QUOTE ]

What he said.... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[firstgenaddict]

[ QUOTE ]
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gifThose standards are extremely lax in my opinion. I don't believe many here would call cars in that category "unrestored"! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

You may call these standards LAX however if we(camaro collectors) had these standards in place with awards for them there would be fewer restored cars and we would have a better understanding of the actual workmanship and how more things changed during production runs...
It's really our LOSS and is a shame because they had them in place 20 years ago...

[Salvatore]

The Vette guys are a little lax in my opinion. ALL original paint and interior is important to me. Certain maintenance is necessary and does not always let the original 40 year old stuff hang around forever. Hoses,belts,shocks,wires etc. I can live with but one repaint 35 years ago bothers me. How about original paint but somebody cleared it 20 years ago? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif Paint to me is the most important.

[SIR-VIVOR]

I kinda like the original paint stuff myself, even if it looks a bit ratty. It's only original once. My term for a repainter Survivor is Rurvivor. You can always find original belts, hoses, wires, shocks and other goodies if the originals are worn out.

[69hurstSC]

[ QUOTE ]
The Vette guys are a little lax in my opinion. ALL original paint and interior is important to me. Certain maintenance is necessary and does not always let the original 40 year old stuff hang around forever. Hoses,belts,shocks,wires etc. I can live with but one repaint 35 years ago bothers me. How about original paint but somebody cleared it 20 years ago? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif Paint to me is the most important.

[/ QUOTE ]
+1

[Steve Shauger]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The Vette guys are a little lax in my opinion. ALL original paint and interior is important to me. Certain maintenance is necessary and does not always let the original 40 year old stuff hang around forever. Hoses,belts,shocks,wires etc. I can live with but one repaint 35 years ago bothers me. How about original paint but somebody cleared it 20 years ago? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif Paint to me is the most important.

[/ QUOTE ]
+1

[/ QUOTE ]

The Bloomington Benchmark Award =95%original in all four areas. That is what I am hearing from what most people consider survivor. Bloomington sets the standard for the term survivor and it may seem lax but it embraces many unrestored cars that have some degree of restoration and provides them with recognition. Without the survivor award many cars would have been restored, rather than preserved.

There are very few benchmark car, and they are the holygrail. Lets cut the survivor cars some slack and recognize them as well.


Google "survivor car show" for the definition and standards of survivor

[L78M22Rag]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gifThose standards are extremely lax in my opinion. I don't believe many here would call cars in that category "unrestored"! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

You may call these standards LAX however if we(camaro collectors) had these standards in place with awards for them there would be fewer restored cars and we would have a better understanding of the actual workmanship and how more things changed during production runs...
It's really our LOSS and is a shame because they had them in place 20 years ago...

[/ QUOTE ]

Amen! Although, I don't know why it takes prizes or rewards to get someone to leave a good original car alone. Personally, I get much more satisfaction looking at a real unrestored car with lots of patina than a restored car. Likewise, I'd pay more money for a car in its faded original paint than the same car with shiny new paint.

IMHO, original paint and finishes are a must for a survivor... particularly details like stripes, splatter paint, original underhood finishes, underside finishes, etc. Original interiors are nice, but these cars are meant to be driven and shown off... so I don't blame an owner for making it comfortable. I'm not hung-up on matching numbers, as long as the car still sports the correct drivetrain - again, original remnants of flaked-off chevy orange beats a freshly painted block if its being represented as a survivor.

[napa68]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
From the stuffy http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gifvettedudes with matching cap and shirt site;

[/ QUOTE ]

What he said.... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Easy now!!!!!!!!!!!!

[427.060]

One thing that bothers me is when the "survivor" has been all but disassembled and cleaned/detailed like the so called 1970 Benchmark Chevelle. I don't have a problem with cleaning and detailing an original car but there is s stopping point.
James

[Salvatore]

I agree with you guys but you know as well as I do that as time goes on the rules get more and more lax! Just like letting your kids stay out later and later on the weekends. Pretty soon they are coming in at 2 in the morning A "survivor" means to me that it survived! There are less and less of these cars out there so the rules have to become more lax for any participation. I am upset that the second owner of my nova thought there was a knock in the motor and took it apart. He told me that he found nothing but carbon from sitting. Maybe should have taken it down the California free way for a few miles before taking the motor out. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif What a dope! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[HiHorse]

I can see why a lot of cars get restored, there is a lot of influence/pressure at the shows for mint cars. I for one can appreciate a car that has not been restored. I have left my '69 435HP vette unrestored on purpose and when I take it to shows people ask when the car will receive the restoration it deserves. I've also been told to sell the car to someone that will put money into it. I am the lone ranger and you need thick skin.

[1969l78]

They are only original once, and to me I would rather have a survior-unrestored car then one that was taken apart and only god knows what was really done with it!!!!!! Survivor car's rock!!!!!! And survivor novas are even better. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[TLucas]

The car shall have original paint(75%) and no clear coat. Paint repairs are OK if they are minimal such as wheel lip rust. Original drivetrain is not negotiable. Items such as shocks that are not vin'd to the car may be replaced with NOS or period correct used. This is my personal expectation. When I'm confused I defer to Brian Henderson, Frane Arone, Steve Shauger, and I love bugging Charlie(I've made room for the 70rs in my building). If I can get these guys to agree I know its safe. Any survivor yenkos out there?

[Jacsey 70Z]

I agree, you can even take cleaning a Survivor car to far, just depend on the degree of car you start with.
Mine was an original owner car and very much unmolested, I wanted a Survivor car I could start and even drive. So I was going to clean as much as I could disassembling as little as possible, I didn't want wrench marks and wanted the car to remain true.
Wanting to car to be drivable I knew things like exhaust, plug wires, battery, heater hoses had to be changed, I had no choice.
I believe there should be a percentage or points (Like Steve's Vintage class) for these cars so mine and others has a place, and a car like Charlie's also can show at the percentage it is.
Still think should have original panels and paint, No detailing as far as paint all driveline and numbers, interior and things like hoses, tires, belts, are all bonus.
When you see a true Survivor car you can tell from a 100 feet away, or maybe that's just me, but give me one any day.


http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL17/1627096/5523686/99064705.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL17/1627096/5523686/99065135.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL17/1627096/5523686/347166256.jpg

[x Baldwin Motion]

[ QUOTE ]
.......and when I take it to shows "people ask when the car will receive the restoration it deserves" . I've also been told to sell the car to someone that will put money into it. I am the lone ranger and you need thick skin.

[/ QUOTE ]

those people don't "get it" http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

[TLucas]

Correction: "Frank" Arone sorry for the misspell.

[napa68]

I am probably going to bring on some criticism, but, here it goes. IMO you have to recognize original cars in a variety of levels due to the fact no one can control what has happened until now. In the example of the 20k 70 Z28, if the car was in some type of fender bender, are you then going to write off the engine compartment, chassis, and interior for great examples of originality? If you narrow the recognition so far, you are just promoting restoration rather than preservation. Yes, cars need to recognized at different levels due to the amount of originality. As far as the "cleaning" of an original car, I think the discussion is very subjective. If intense cleaning of an engine compartment or chassis is considered "too much or too far", do we then not buff out and detail original paint?
Bloomington Gold and the NCRS have done something that had not been done before. They recognize and promote the preservation of cars that have "areas" of originality, not just the whole car. So many good original cars found their way into resto shops years ago due to the demand for correct cars rather than originals. Have a second thought before you hammer on Bloomington. After all, you have to start somewhere. I fear this thread is going to go too far.
Tim

[Jacsey 70Z]

I was told at Vettefest, "at least you could of cleaned up all the rust"!!

[Salvatore]

Tim, In all due respect....I don't think musclecar people think like Vette people! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[chads454Ls6]

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t110/yenkot/IMG_0278.jpg

Here is my 26k bb rs z. It was hit in 1970 and repainted except for the stripes. it is all original drivetrain and motor has never been out. all orginal smog,wires,cap,rotor everything under the hood. Is this a survivor?

[Steve Shauger]

[ QUOTE ]
Tim, In all due respect....I don't think musclecar people think like Vette people! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Speak for yourself Sam. The vette guys are great and have done of research and set standards, which helped pave the was for other brands. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Salvatore]

Not if it was repainted IMO. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif All original but????

[69hurstSC]

There are so many vague words in the collector car hobby that always get people debating. Clone, Survivor, Musclecar... there are no right or wrong answers. Just individual groups that set their own standards for meeting said criteria. No one is ever right, and no one is ever wrong.

[Steve Shauger]

[ QUOTE ]
Not if it was repainted IMO. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif All original but????

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't get hung up on the term survivor. They defined it and trademarked it in late 70's early 80's. That standard has not changed. As I mentioned above....your definition of survivor is referred to as a benchmark car. If your not satisfied come up with your own term.

In Vintage Camaro we use our own terms, our highest level is legend which is similar to benchmark, however we include inspect/certify the underside via a lift which allows us more access to critical components and hardware. We also have 3 other levels based on how unrestored/original the car is. There are many cars that are repainted yet absolutely untouched in all other areas and they need to be preserved and recogonized.

An unrestored car is so much more than just paint. For example yes Charley's car is mostly original paint (great), but 90 percent of his pics were of components, hardware, finishes , inspection marks, stickers and such (most of the questions and interest were in those areas). That to me is where the assembly secrets are and where we gain the most knowledge of the "factory assembly processes".

I have passion for original paint cars, but only so much can be learned from it. Looking at virgin engine compartment, interior and trunk and underbody is equally as important.

I understand your point Sam, but if we let everyone redefine survivor then we lose THE standard and it becomes too subjective and open to anyones interpretation.

[SBR]

As a Vette guy I commend Bloomington Gold for promoting the preservation of original cars. What I have seen though is a disturbing trend where cars are messaged heavily so that they can Benchmark. Why you may ask, money of course why else! I have seen cars over the years that have been completely repainted and bodies taken off the frame to clean chassis' engine repaints removed and they still pass for Benchmark. I have seen others with fender replaced and flares repaired and stock piles of NOS parts used from bumpers to taillights to door sills etc. etc. I persoanlly own a revivor as it was so put but I would rather be honest about it then participate in the continued deception that is running rampant in our hobbby. I guess I could pull the body off the frame and let the car age outside several years and who knows maybe I can have a benchmark car too! I think Bloomington needs to change their standards by measuring paint thickness for one or else the award that I used to hold in such high regard will be meaningless.

[Salvatore]

Hey Steve, You guys at Carlisle are the judges. You have seen way more cars than me. I will respect your calls and judgments. I am sure this type of judging is not an easy task. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Steve Shauger]

[ QUOTE ]
As a Vette guy I commend Bloomington Gold for promoting the preservation of original cars. What I have seen though is a disturbing trend where cars are messaged heavily so that they can Benchmark. Why you may ask, money of course why else! I have seen cars over the years that have been completely repainted and bodies taken off the frame to clean chassis' engine repaints removed and they still pass for Benchmark. I have seen others with fender replaced and flares repaired and stock piles of NOS parts used from bumpers to taillights to door sills etc. etc. I persoanlly own a revivor as it was so put but I would rather be honest about it then participate in the continued deception that is running rampant in our hobbby. I guess I could pull the body off the frame and let the car age outside several years and who knows maybe I can have a benchmark car too! I think Bloomington needs to change their standards by measuring paint thickness for one or else the award that I used to hold in such high regard will be meaningless.

[/ QUOTE ]

In Vintage Camaro we measure paint thickness and verify what should be found in factory applied paint. As you mention massaging of the cars is a problem. We rather have an untouched car. We don't mind a dull paint and a little dirt. It doesn't effect our certification process.

I am also involved with Bloomingtons Survivor Show, and was surprised that measuring paint was a no-no.

[Steve Shauger]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Steve, You guys at Carlisle are the judges. You have seen way more cars than me. I will respect your calls and judgments. I am sure this type of judging is not an easy task. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I just wanted to point out that the term is/has been defined by the Vette community (Bloomington Gold) I am sure not everyone accepts it, but it is a line in the sand.

Novaivor is a term you may want to coin and define as a nova survivor. OK Sam have at it.... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I can't wait to see your LB Nova. BTW it would look nice next to my LB Camaro.

[Salvatore]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif I love all these cars Steve! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[kwhizz]

Here's a conversation about one of Sammy's other Loves...........LOL

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a251/kwhizz/Beaches%2008/th_MOV02794.jpg (http://s13.photobucket.com/albums/a251/kwhizz/Beaches%2008/?action=view&current=MOV02794.flv)

Ken

[napa68]

[ QUOTE ]
I was told at Vettefest, "at least you could of cleaned up all the rust"!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't touch that car! Furthermore, if the "rust" comment came from a judge, Mr. Ashton needs to correct that train of thought. Judging from input on this particular thread, shows that venues of signifigant awards need to create some separation for original cars. As mentioned before, all the little chalk marks, paint dabs, and small details of a car NEED to be preserved. If you have not figured it out, I am a huge fan of original cars. Charlie's new car is something not many are going to live up to. If Charlie's car is the determining factor if you keep your car original (or parts of it) vs. restoring it.........we are going to wreck a lot of good references!

[firstgenaddict]

Keeping even a certain section such as engine compartment, chassis, interior, or exterior orignal helps everyone... I personally love to look at the orignal paint cars... there is something about the way the lead was done the grind marks the lacquer checks... it is great to look at... the translucence and surface qualities of the old lacquer are not duplicated...

[SBR]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not if it was repainted IMO. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif All original but????

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't get hung up on the term survivor. They defined it and trademarked it in late 70's early 80's. That standard has not changed. As I mentioned above....your definition of survivor is referred to as a benchmark car. If your not satisfied come up with your own term.

In Vintage Camaro we use our own terms, our highest level is legend which is similar to benchmark, however we include inspect/certify the underside via a lift which allows us more access to critical components and hardware. We also have 3 other levels based on how unrestored/original the car is. There are many cars that are repainted yet absolutely untouched in all other areas and they need to be preserved and recogonized.

An unrestored car is so much more than just paint. For example yes Charley's car is mostly original paint (great), but 90 percent of his pics were of components, hardware, finishes , inspection marks, stickers and such (most of the questions and interest were in those areas). That to me is where the assembly secrets are and where we gain the most knowledge of the "factory assembly processes".

I have passion for original paint cars, but only so much can be learned from it. Looking at virgin engine compartment, interior and trunk and underbody is equally as important.

I understand your point Sam, but if we let everyone redefine survivor then we lose THE standard and it becomes too subjective and open to anyones interpretation.

[/ QUOTE ] Steve, I could not agree more, while I wish my car had original paint, looking at a mint 20K mile california frame, with a virtually untouched engine compartment and 100% original interior is also a significant source of information. Should a car like this be restored because it has been painted? I say absolutely not.

[TimG]

Steve, send it to Texas. We'll take care of the aging of that red paint..........http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[SBR]

[ QUOTE ]
Steve, send it to Texas. We'll take care of the aging of that red paint..........http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[/ QUOTE ] Tim, I'm sure that the Texas sun would do wonders in making the paint "appear" original LOL.

[SIR-VIVOR]

Especially if Tim and I drove it around to get some rock chips. I'd be happy to store it in the Garajamjal so we can do that! Better than driving it in that snow up in Chicago!

[TimG]

Steve, we're only concerned about your best interest..... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[TXSS]

I love survivor cars. Original paint is a must in my book to be considered a true survivor. I own a #'s matching L78 Pace Car that I would consider a survivor car. Some on this site have questioned how well it has survived but it is what it is. Very rust free, 63K miles, original paint, original drivetrain, original interior. I replaced some of the consumable parts, the carpet, exhaust and added the correct smog. Other than that just about everything else is original. Even the hood insulation. I did paint the exhaust manifolds.....I couldn't help myself. You can't tell by looking at it but it's been completely and correctly gone through mechanically. I differentiate between restoring and repairing. I don't think any of the things I've done compromise it's survivor status. At least I hope not. JMO.

http://katyclassiccars.com/L78PaceCar/a.jpg

http://katyclassiccars.com/L78PaceCar/b.jpg

http://katyclassiccars.com/L78PaceCar/c.jpg

http://katyclassiccars.com/L78PaceCar/d.jpg

[TimG]

Great Pace Car, L78 automatic. Wow......
Probably optioned similar to the actual one. I think it was a JL8, L89 automatic.

[Salvatore]

Thats a nice car Rick! I would even wipe down the inner fenders,subframe, motor compartment, firewall etc. with WD40 or Boeshield and a rag. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[kwhizz]

Rick....................Listen to Sammy.........He's the "Master" of Detailing..... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

Ken http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif(Trying to walk in Sammy's Footsteps) http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

[Salvatore]

Also I like to use the old KIT or Rally wax. They seem to bring up the old lacquer paint better than the newer base coat clear coat wax. A soft tooth brush and a "little" compund may remove some of those off color rust areas on the paint. Keep it original, its a nizzze car! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

[Mr.Nickey Nova]

Didn't know they made Kit wax anymore,haven't herd that name for a longtime.

I have to agree with Steve Shauger. Just a whole lot of common sense in what he is saying. Frank

[TXSS]

Thanks for the advice Sam. That pic was taken before I had it all buttoned up. I do try to keep it well lubed with WD40. The second law of thermodynamics never takes a day off on the gulf coast. There's rust in the air, along with salt and lots of water.

Kit or Rally wax you say. I'll be looking for some of that tomorrow.

Thanks again

[L78M22Rag]

When I brought my 67 home, my brother-in-law didn't even want me to detail under the hood. He said "that's thirty year old dirt... you can't touch it!" http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

He's kinda right... my favorite shot of the car is the one showing how the car was found, under years of dust.
http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg155/helmuteckert/67RFdusty.jpg
http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg155/helmuteckert/67Motor.jpg

We all appreciate something different about these old survivors, so the less you touch the better.

[Salvatore]

I bought my KIT wax at an automotive store and my RALLY wax on line. Nice car Helmut!!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif