Define "re-body"...

[JHS]

Lots of talk about re-bodied cars going around. Can somenone define re-body, where panel replacement ends and re-body begins? If one replaces the quarters, fenders, floor pans, trunk pan, hood and deck lid (all with GM original metal from donorcars) is this considered a re-body?

[mockingbird812]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v697/mockingbird812/pic1.jpg


http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[WILMASBOYL78]

Sam, you beat me to it....here's a "re-body shop" http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif


http://www.yenko.net/attachments/381135-plastic_surgery_center.gif

[ZL1#17]

This issue has been discussed over and over. Here is a link to a Mopar forum that some good insight on what defines a rebody. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

Click here (http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Number=3426523)

[WILMASBOYL78]

I think I read somewhere that Obama will be addressing this issue immediately after he is sworn in http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif...so don't worry, it will be all taken care of in a few days http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

wilma http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[ORIGLS6]

re•bo•dy \ 1 : the unethical regeneration of a once classic vehicle. 2 : a term dreaded by true enthusiasts

[showyourauto]

[ QUOTE ]
Lots of talk about re-bodied cars going around. Can somenone define re-body, where panel replacement ends and re-body begins? If one replaces the quarters, fenders, floor pans, trunk pan, hood and deck lid (all with GM original metal from donorcars) is this considered a re-body?

[/ QUOTE ]

The best definition of a rebody I have ever read comes from the 4th edition of SAAC World Registry of Cobras and GT40's (page 30). "Original/Rebodied A car having more than 50% of its original substructure or bodywork replaced, but not the main frame tubes or pieces carrying the serial stampings."

According to SAAC, an Air Car is a car built from scratch, starting out with no pieces carrying the original serial number stampings, and with no legitimate paperwork. An Air car has no claim to that VIN, either by legal ownership of major parts or paperwork.

A Reconstruction on the other hand, is a car that has been rebuilt substantially to original specifications (including replacement of main substructure or frame) but where some part of the original car existed prior to rebuild; also documentation paperwork exists (i.e. traceable bill of sale, title, registration, etc.).

If the ZL1 everyone is talking about were a Shelby, it would likely be considered an "Air Car" or a "Reconstruction" depending on the proof of VIN plate and paperwork.

These are definitions that would work well to adopt across the hobby in general. Hope that helps! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Mark_C]

What happened to the 4 posts from the 24th?

[m22mike]

Mark

Rob explained, yesterday, in another section that the server took a dump and he had to use a back up file...must have lost some stuff. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

Mike

[CC Rider]

[ QUOTE ]
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v697/mockingbird812/pic1.jpg

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

[Mark_C]

So we get back to my original post that said maybe the 50% criteria would need a time limit, since I have already replaced 2 fenders and 2 quarters along with a new convertible top in 1983, a door skin, half floor pan and new valence panel in 91 and potentially a new trunk lid and outer wheelwells if I repaint the car this year I'm coming up on the magic 50 percent of sheetmetal requirement to qualify as a rebody. Maybe convertibles should get a break ( like 65%)since they don't have sheetmetal roofs and sail panels. I certainly would not consider my car a rebody as none of the changes I have made affect any of the original components that carry the hidden VINs and none of the parts used ever existed on another vehicle (except the valence). So the definition of a rebody does not work for me, unless there was some kind of modification like the parts used in the "rebody" came from another vehicle(vs NOS or aftermarket components). The others are fine.

[njsteve]

Here is the final verdict from someone in the legal profession:

Removing the VIN from one body and placing it on a DIFFERENT body is illegal. Period, end of story.

Removing the VIN from a body to replace a rusty part and then reinstalling it on the SAME body, is not seen as a criminal offense by most law enforcement agencies. Some states require a law enforcement witness to the removal and reinstallation but it is more of a motor vehicle-related infraction and not the major felony that VIN swapping is. Replacing a single panel on the original body or a large number of panels does not alter the classification.

That is how the law enforcement agencies, state and federal, view it.

Just because some car owner's club or restoration judging entity creates a classification for "air cars" or "rebodies" etc., doesn't alter the fact that the car is illegal and the act of creating it is a serious crime.

It is only a matter of time until an example is made of one of these VIN swapped, rebodied, high dollar, high publicity cars. It will take one of these Franken-cars to get seized for the violation to be finally taken seriously by the unscrupulous traders and "restorers."

It is the duty of all enthusiasts of bonafide cars to raise a stink every time one of these rebodied/VIN swapped abortions comes to light, because when they do come up for auction and the publicity leads them to sell for 1/3 of what the seller has into it, then the purveyors of these rolling felonies will finally stop dealing in them and go back to selling swamp land in Florida.

Here's a reall life example: Remember that Rally green, rebodied "low mileage" Z/28 that sold at the BJ Las Vegas auction last year? The stink raised by that car was probably the reason that the same buyer did not go anywhere near the green ZL1. (Even the really creepy backrubbing by Mr. Sunglasses, caught on camera, couldn't get him to bid on the ZL1) Very wise move by the bidder to keep his wallet closed during that sale, and without him in the bidding mix, the car was not bid up to real ZL1 value territory. Obviously, the intelligent people present that evening saw he wasn't bidding and took that as a hint to stay away.

[kwhizz]

What Steve "Said"...... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

Ken http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[njsteve]

One more addendum: I get people that always ask about the new dynacorn bodies. They always bring up the fact that the bodies are advertised as "authorized by GM" or "licensed by Ford" or whomever, and they seem to think that makes them legal to swap a VIN to...

DEAD WRONG!

The "authorized/licensed part" label refers to the component being licensed as a replacement part by GM or Ford. This enables the seller to to sell it as a "Camaro" or "Mustang" body part. It is done to avoid being sued by GM or Ford for copyright infringment. Nothing more. It has absolutely no effect on the fact that it is still a felony to bolt another car's VIN tag to that different body shell.

Replacement parts copyright licensing and VIN tag swapping are completely unrelated legal areas - one is civil/business law and the other is criminal law. Riveting another car's VIN to a "licensed" body does not magically immunize the car (or the rivetor) from the felony that has been committed.

[showyourauto]

[ QUOTE ]
So we get back to my original post that said maybe the 50% criteria would need a time limit, since I have already replaced 2 fenders and 2 quarters along with a new convertible top in 1983, a door skin, half floor pan and new valence panel in 91 and potentially a new trunk lid and outer wheelwells if I repaint the car this year I'm coming up on the magic 50 percent of sheetmetal requirement to qualify as a rebody.

[/ QUOTE ]

When I am considering a car, I look at WHAT sheetmetal has been replaced and compare that to what typically rusted out first in those given models. Typically, rear quarters are the first things to go, then some the trunk floor is more common, followed by the front floor pans. This kind of work, when done right does not bother me. If we are talking about major rust in structural areas of the car, eg. frame horns, firewall, A pillars, rocker boxes, rear frame extensions, etc- that kind and extent of replacement gives me pause. Depending on the rarity of the vehicle, one of these on the list may be acceptable (at a reduced price). More than a couple of these key items, I'd consider the car a "rebody". To borrow from the construction trade: new sheet rock, no big deal. Replacing the most of the major load bearing walls, I'll likely look for another house.

[iluv69s]

[ QUOTE ]


Removing the VIN from one body and placing it on a DIFFERENT body is illegal. Period, end of story.



[/ QUOTE ]


Thats the bottom line in a nutshell.....from a legal point of view!! Thanks

[Schonyenko2]

Thank you. That was what I have believed all along.
I still have a hard time understanding how they, :ie law enforcement feds/locals, allow cars that are labeled as rebodies to blatently be auctioned off. It's hard to look the other way when milloins of people are watching.
Does knowingly selling a rebodied car at auction, like they (BJ) are doing constitute complicity, and or fraud?
And finally, if you as the new owner, knowing full well that the car is a retagged, rebody, go and have it titled, and registered in your name, are you also complicent in perpetuating the fraud?
Nice to have legal counsel on the SYC site. Leave him alone Kwizz. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[kwhizz]

I agree with everything Steve "Said" http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif..........LOL....(Steve is an Exception to the Rule)

Ken http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[RichSchmidt]

Here is what I see as another possible problem.There are only 3 vins on 1st gen Camaros.One is on the firewall,over the heater box,one is the tag on the dash{68/69}and the oter is on the subframe.What if somebody bought a dynacorn body,drilled ot the welds that hold the upper cowl area to the original car including the upper dash area,and reused the old subframe and attached it all to the dynacorn body?Technically all the numbers would match.You could go further and say that somebody can restamp the numbers into the cowl and front subframe using stamps and gang holders and you wouldnt b able to tell that the car wasnt original.

I am restoring a car that I cut up into a race car 20 years ago and would like to put back on the street now.I am replacing the entire floorpan from toeboards to tail light panel including the rear rails with new metal,along with inner and outer wheelhouses,full 1/4's and a tail panel.I am also putting 2 donor doors with new skins and 2 NOS fender on it and a new upper and lower front panel,new bumpers and braces.All that will be original will be the rockers,the roof and most of the roof inner structure,and the entire firewall.I dont have any problems calling my car legit,and plan on restoring it to chalk mark specs.I dont know of many cars that are restored that have 50% of their structural or external sheet metal left anyhow.If they have more the 50% of their metal theft,then chances are they are touted as a nearly unmolested original.Most of these old cars started sprouting rust holes about 2 years after they were madel,and the ones that didnt only stayed clean because they were hacked into race cars.

[Salvatore]

Where on the subframe?

[RichSchmidt]

On my 2nd gen car there is a number at the rear edge of the framerail where the body bolt is.I believe that on 1st gens there is a number behind the steering box.

[CamarosRus]

The stamped # on the 2nd Gen Camaro/Firebirds SUBFRAMES....is the date and shift the frame was mfg....and has NOTHING to do with a VIN #

2nd Gen Camaros, at least the early ones have 1) the riveted VIN tag under the glass, and 2) stamped VIN on firewall under the blower motor plenum.......That is ALL!!!!

[njsteve]

[ QUOTE ]
Here is what I see as another possible problem.There are only 3 vins on 1st gen Camaros.One is on the firewall,over the heater box,one is the tag on the dash{68/69}and the oter is on the subframe.What if somebody bought a dynacorn body,drilled ot the welds that hold the upper cowl area to the original car including the upper dash area,and reused the old subframe and attached it all to the dynacorn body?Technically all the numbers would match.You could go further and say that somebody can restamp the numbers into the cowl and front subframe using stamps and gang holders and you wouldnt b able to tell that the car wasnt original.

I am restoring a car that I cut up into a race car 20 years ago and would like to put back on the street now.I am replacing the entire floorpan from toeboards to tail light panel including the rear rails with new metal,along with inner and outer wheelhouses,full 1/4's and a tail panel.I am also putting 2 donor doors with new skins and 2 NOS fender on it and a new upper and lower front panel,new bumpers and braces.All that will be original will be the rockers,the roof and most of the roof inner structure,and the entire firewall.I dont have any problems calling my car legit,and plan on restoring it to chalk mark specs.I dont know of many cars that are restored that have 50% of their structural or external sheet metal left anyhow.If they have more the 50% of their metal theft,then chances are they are touted as a nearly unmolested original.Most of these old cars started sprouting rust holes about 2 years after they were madel,and the ones that didnt only stayed clean because they were hacked into race cars.

[/ QUOTE ]

The first paragragh = illegal because the person would be restamping a confidential VIN and moving the VIN tag to a different body.

The second paragraph = legal and the correct (albeit expensive) way to restore a car. Good luck - Post some photos of your progress! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[jeffschevelle]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here is what I see as another possible problem.There are only 3 vins on 1st gen Camaros.One is on the firewall,over the heater box,one is the tag on the dash{68/69}and the oter is on the subframe.What if somebody bought a dynacorn body,drilled ot the welds that hold the upper cowl area to the original car including the upper dash area,and reused the old subframe and attached it all to the dynacorn body?Technically all the numbers would match.You could go further and say that somebody can restamp the numbers into the cowl and front subframe using stamps and gang holders and you wouldnt b able to tell that the car wasnt original.

I am restoring a car that I cut up into a race car 20 years ago and would like to put back on the street now.I am replacing the entire floorpan from toeboards to tail light panel including the rear rails with new metal,along with inner and outer wheelhouses,full 1/4's and a tail panel.I am also putting 2 donor doors with new skins and 2 NOS fender on it and a new upper and lower front panel,new bumpers and braces.All that will be original will be the rockers,the roof and most of the roof inner structure,and the entire firewall.I dont have any problems calling my car legit,and plan on restoring it to chalk mark specs.I dont know of many cars that are restored that have 50% of their structural or external sheet metal left anyhow.If they have more the 50% of their metal theft,then chances are they are touted as a nearly unmolested original.Most of these old cars started sprouting rust holes about 2 years after they were madel,and the ones that didnt only stayed clean because they were hacked into race cars.

[/ QUOTE ]

The first paragragh = illegal because the person would be restamping a confidential VIN and moving the VIN tag to a different body.

The second paragraph = legal and the correct (albeit expensive) way to restore a car. Good luck - Post some photos of your progress! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with both conclusions above, but that goes right back to the original question in the first post in this thread -- where is the dividing line between rebodied and not rebodied? If the rivets are not drilled out of any of the vin or cowl tags, and the upper firewall/dash top and the driver's side A-pillar (for a car with a door-jamb vin tag) are reused from the original car, but every single other piece of the entire body is replaced, is that a rebody or not?? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif 'Legal' versus 'illegal' does not answer that question.

If it is a rebody, then how many more parts from the original car (even if they don't have VIN stamps) would you have to retain or reuse for it not to be a rebody? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

In the example above, the ENTIRE firewall and roof (back to the sails) is being reused. So that smells like NOT a rebody, becuase everyone is already very used to having to replace floors, floor braces, wheelhouses and quarters. But what if it was a vinyl top car and the roof had to be replaced too? Have we crossed the rebody line?

Or what if the kick panels were rusted out, and the restorer decided it is better to replace the entire A-pillar structure with one solid factory welded piece from a rust free car rather than to patch up the original swiss cheese? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

On the flip side, you could have a very nice, rust free car that got hit in the driver's side hinge pillar area, such that the firewall, dash and hinge/A-pillar on that side need to be replaced. That will obviously entail removing the tags, and putting them back on after the repairs are done. Is that a rebody? It seems like it shouldn't be, because the vast majority of the original body is intact and unchanged. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

So if there is ever going to be an "objective" standard, it must eventually boil down to a "percentage of original structure" test (and outer sheet metal skin really ought to be irrelevant). The problems with that are (1) how do you pick an arbitrary percentage and who decides, and (2) if the hobby can't agree on a percentage and we're left with the "smell" test (that we have all been applying ourselves for years), each person's nose has a different sensitivity. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

Conclusion - We're never going to have a clear answer on this subject that everyone can agree on; and the crooked folks that are doing outright, obvious rebodies and lieing about it are going to keep on doing it unless they know they will get outed when they do. So let's all keep ratting them out whenever they try it, and eventually that might slow them down some! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

Jeff

[RichSchmidt]

I could be wrong about this,but wasnt there a certain TV show that was doing a buildup of a dynacorn body?If I remember correctly,that body was first shown in black primer as built by dynacorn.The next thing you know there are white weld marks and ground off paint all along the area where the cowl box is welded to the firewall.I dont want to make any waves here,but is it possible that this car had the firewall of a donor grafted to a dynacorn body? I also know that there was a company that was buying up rusty early camaros,cutting the firewalls out and building new cars around the existing firewall,then selling them.If I remember correctly the latest batch of "Real 1969 Baldwin Motion Camaros" were built this way.From time to time you will see cars on Ebay that were cut off where the rockers meet the firewalland at the A pillars,and may or may not have had subframes.Such cars were listed as "restorable with todays parts".It seems that this is going to be a very fast growing issue until all the clapped out old car bodies dry up,and that could take a while.

Here is another problem.as the cost of cars go up,it is more worthwhile to do a better job of hiding both rebody work and metal replacement in general.If a car is restored properly,how would anyone ever know that the sheet metal wasnt the original.Once the car is painted,if everything is done correctly even if you look into allthe nooks and crannies you should be able to tell if a car had quarters or wheelhouses or even framerails done on it.Wth the new once piece floorpans being made for Camaros even floows can be done without seams.I think right now you can get a pre assemble undercarrage for a camaro for just a few grand and even add to it from there.The part starts as full floors from toe boards to tail panel,with seat braces rear frame rails,gas tank straps and all other little hardware installed,the builter will then add complete rockers,inner and outer wheelhouses and trunk extentions.If you had a really bad camaro body you could add this assembly under it,buy a new ail panel,2 quarters,a roofskin,upperdash panel{which would require re-riveting the vin},and basically build a new camaro in your garage without the law knowing.If you did it perfect,and put all the original sound deadening spray,factory selaer and primers on it,and seal sealed it just right,who would know?

[Douglas Willinger]

[ QUOTE ]
Lots of talk about re-bodied cars going around. Can somenone define re-body, where panel replacement ends and re-body begins? If one replaces the quarters, fenders, floor pans, trunk pan, hood and deck lid (all with GM original metal from donorcars) is this considered a re-body?

[/ QUOTE ]

The best definition of a rebody I have ever read comes from the 4th edition of SAAC World Registry of Cobras and GT40's (page 30). "Original/Rebodied A car having more than 50% of its original substructure or bodywork replaced, but not the main frame tubes or pieces carrying the serial stampings."

According to SAAC, an Air Car is a car built from scratch, starting out with no pieces carrying the original serial number stampings, and with no legitimate paperwork. An Air car has no claim to that VIN, either by legal ownership of major parts or paperwork.

A Reconstruction on the other hand, is a car that has been rebuilt substantially to original specifications (including replacement of main substructure or frame) but where some part of the original car existed prior to rebuild; also documentation paperwork exists (i.e. traceable bill of sale, title, registration, etc.).

If the ZL1 everyone is talking about were a Shelby, it would likely be considered an "Air Car" or a "Reconstruction" depending on the proof of VIN plate and paperwork.

These are definitions that would work well to adopt across the hobby in general. Hope that helps! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

A rare car is severely damaged in a fire. The body is badly warped. yet the drive-train survives.

The car is entirely reconstructed with the same drivetrain, or at least the engine and transmission, which are original castings and not re-stamped. The vin on the block matches the car vin, and the vin legitimately represents the car as what it would appear.

The reconstruction either swaps the vin tags alone, or the vin tags with some of the sheet metal of the destroyed body still attached.

What amount of attached original sheet metal would qualify to make this legitimate?

What if the vin tag were destroyed, and a replica of that created- with or without a body change?

Should not there be a registry of restored cars in general to document the percentage of original and replacement parts to protect those placing an extra value on original parts, while permitting a wider range of reconstructions being honestly presented on the market?

[Stefano]

9 year old thread, is there a specific car you would like to discuss?