black 69 zl1

[black69]

I talked with the original owner of my 60 corvette every now and then, and asked him if he knew if the ZL1 prototype car was destroyed. The original owner of my vette was the only holley guy inside chevy plant back then and worked on the black car. He does not think they destroyed it, and said there was only one car made. Is it for 110% certain the car is detroyed?

[William]

Since I have been in the hobby 35 years I have stories going way back.

Chevy built a 1970 Camaro ZL-1 styling car that Bill Mitchell ended up with, shown on page 110 of "The Great Camaro". It was later updated with a 1978-style nose. I believe it still exists. The engine in that car was supposed to have come from the 1969 ZL-1 show car. Way back in the '80s at a show I asked someone from Chevy what became of the '69 ZL-1 show car. He believed the chassis was sold to someone from the Tech Center purportedly to build into a race car. If that happened, the car may be around but would have to have paperwork to prove its' provenance.

FWIW I have a photo of another 1969 Camaro show car that has many of the same styling features but is not an RS. It is Daytona yellow/black vinyl, has bullet-style mirrors, Chaparral-style wheels, lots of different stripes. I believe it is a factory styling car because it has a 1969 Michigan tag and a Z/28-style fender emblem "Z/427." Particularly intriguing is the blacked-out vinyl roof trim and the identical front spoiler as the ZL-1 show car.

There is someone who has "a box full of original photographs and documentation" [his words] of the ZL-1 showcar. Years ago he sent me a copy of a ZL-1 decal used on it. I am 100% certain of his word.

But I understand his reluctance. If that car still exists in original condition.....WOW!

[iluv69s]

[ QUOTE ]

FWIW I have a photo of another 1969 Camaro show car that has many of the same styling features but is not an RS. It is Daytona yellow/black vinyl, has bullet-style mirrors, Chaparral-style wheels, lots of different stripes. I believe it is a factory styling car because it has a 1969 Michigan tag and a Z/28-style fender emblem "Z/427." Particularly intriguing is the blacked-out vinyl roof trim and the identical front spoiler as the ZL-1 show car.




[/ QUOTE ]

Let's see the photo !!

[William]

I do not have a hosting site-can I send to you? It was on a calendar and is huge.

[JK98SS]

www.photobucket.com (http://www.photobucket.com) is free and easy.

[William]

Here goes...

http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt65/JJZ109/Z-427showcar001.jpg

[markinnaples]

1967?

[William]

Beats me.

The calendar [2006] is an "Official Licensed Product" and carries the GM logo. It has a 1964 Corvette ID'd as a '63 and a '68 GTO as a '69.

Printed in China...

[owners2]

Wow really cool looking. It's a 68 camaro because it has no vent window's..

[DarrenX33]

No headrests? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

[William]

Nope - or Camaro fender emblems, rocker trim.

The additional lighting makes me wonder if this was intended for the Euro market.

[x Baldwin Motion]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow really cool looking. It's a 68 camaro because it has no vent window's..

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[DarrenX33]

It appears as if the headlight buckets are chrome to. I can't say I have ever seen this car or this picture before. Is it certain that this is a GM photo from 69?

[al8apex]

look closely and you will see mud flaps too ...

[69z2x4]

This is what the 1970 Camaro should have looked like.

[owners2]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wow really cool looking. It's a 68 camaro because it has no vent window's..

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]My Bad just looked quick & responded without noticing the grille & quarters & differrant body shape all together.. Duh. Sorry.

[olredalert]

------Also appears that this Camaro has a non-production rear spoiler. Wonder if Euro laws might have had anything to do with that???.......Bill S

[black69]

so back to the original topic, is there a chance the black 69zl1 is still out there, and maybe is in chicago area? wrecked? Or does someone know for sure they crushed the original car.

[DarrenX33]

Years ago I recall over hearing someone say that the black/gold was believed to be in the Chicago area. Unless that was a dream or something.. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[Fast67VelleN2O]

It is parked right next to the one and only 1965 Z16 convertible.

[black69]

there was a guy that told me about a wrecked black camaro with an aluminum block sitting in a chicago garage, and he mentioned he wanted to get the drivetrain out of it someday, it is in their family and it has been sitting for years. He made it clear the car was totaled but his other family members thought it was worth saving for the drivetain, and there was some paperwork related to the car. Maybe its his cousin's or deceased uncle, who knows, did not pry. he was not thinking or pushing missing zl1 or anything, that was me, thus the reason for the post. I just found it odd talking to a guy from southern-central IL about a wrecked black camaro being saved for some reason in a chicago garage. Yes it could be anything, the black aspect made me think of the zl1 as there were no black yenkos. maybe its a nickey car.
Thus I called up a guy that I know worked at gm on the black zl1's carb at the proving grounds and he does not remember it being detroyed at all, he said there was one car and that was it. I tried to ask a guy with the black zl1 copy at vettefest and he pretty much did not want to talk of the real car possibly existing, and he ended the conversation in 5 seconds.
at this point I will just proceed to find out what that car is.

[Jeff H]

Can't hurt to look into it further.

[Kurt S]

It should have an M-plate if it was a factory car. I'd say that picture is post-GM.

[William]

That photo is on a calendar and all of the photos are credited to "GM Archives."

[PeteLeathersac]

Are those tires radials?.
If so, being Goodyears wouldn't they have to be early 70's or later?.
And what's on the hood...a mini tach made out of a deer whistle?.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif
~ Pete

[x Baldwin Motion]

Pete, are we still talking about the car in the calendar? That is obviously an early 80's custom. I think the deer whistle tach is just a shadow from the cowl hood opening.


http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt65/JJZ109/Z-427showcar001.jpg

[PeteLeathersac]

Yes the yellow '69...I was responding as I thought you guys were thinking it was an original GM shot w/ '69 Michigan tags etc?.
And are you sure the deer whistle is a shadow...looks like something mounted there to me?.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
~ Pete

[Charley Lillard]

Looks like a shadow to me.

[Tracker1]

Just an opinion, but I wouldn't be so quick to discount the calendar car as a non-factory custom. Bill Mitchell was always doctoring up stuff to his own tastes. He liked yellow, he liked that style of wheel (alot) and he liked the '69 Camaro (alot). The 1962 mako Shark vette (see my attachment) has similar wheels and that car is all Mitchell. And that IS definitely a shadow.

[Tracker1]

1975 Camaro Berlinetta show car at the Chicago Auto Show - another Mitchell creation. Check the wheels.

[Tracker1]

Bill Mitchell's Mulsanne Corvette Aero Coupe - wheels AND tires.

[Tracker1]

Mitchell's 1974 Corvette Mulsanne

[Tracker1]

Mitchell and Duntov's collaboration 1967 Astro I Corvette Concept. He loved those wheels. And the calendar car just seems to have other "Mitchell" touches. The chin spoiler, the European mirrors. It just looks like something he would have had the GM Colour & Design shop whip up for him. Hence the GM Archives photo credit.

[redline]

I always loved this photo, I scanned it from Popular Hot Rodding.
It was published in Oct 1969, had all the new cars in it for '70.
All photos were factory photos.
Is that taken at the proving grounds?

Those wheels look cool.

http://www.yenko.net/attachments/393612-sm-ZL1Img0018.JPG

[black69]

that is a great picture..
interesting torsion/sway bar underneath..

[nuch_ss396]

[ QUOTE ]
that is a great picture..
interesting torsion/sway bar underneath..

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah! Got your back on that one. I didn't know the Mitchell ZL-1 had this setup. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

Nuch

[CamaroBob]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: black69</div><div class="ubbcode-body">that is a great picture..
interesting torsion/sway bar underneath.. </div></div>

Notice that the car in the photo is not an RS. There are many photos of the RS car and this one looks identical aside from that. Still think there was only one made?

-BM

[al8apex]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: black69</div><div class="ubbcode-body">that is a great picture..
interesting torsion/sway bar underneath.. </div></div>

looks like the 70 Camaro / Firebird design, maybe an engineering test mule

the one thing that strikes ME as odd is the incorrect application of the stripes on the rear. OEM / assembly line stripes DID NOT &quot;spill&quot; onto the deck lid ...

it also appears to have a wrap around front spoiler on it as well, again MAYBE from an Engineering mule standpoint BUT the height of the car makes me think poorly done period custom, hard to believe this is an Engineering test mule car now, I have not seen them jack suspensions up like that ...

[TMagda]

Guys, isn't this the black and gold mock up of a production ZL-1 that Chevrolet was considering marketing? I remember seeing this picture before as well as an awesome clone of this car that someone built.

I think so too... the pix were later circulated in the media (as in us &lt;g&gt;). <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/scholar.gif

Wayne

[1967Z28]

A couple of pics from '69 at Road America, the Z/427 Camaro and the Corvette Mulsanne. The accent color on the Camaro is not black even though it appeared to be in the calendar photo.

-Jon

http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Chevyshow2.jpg
http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Chevyshow1.jpg

[BigBlockBoy]

[quote=William]Since I have been in the hobby 35 years I have stories going way back.

Chevy built a 1970 Camaro ZL-1 styling car that Bill Mitchell ended up with, shown on page 110 of &quot;The Great Camaro&quot;. It was later updated with a 1978-style nose. I believe it still exists. The engine in that car was supposed to have come from the 1969 ZL-1 show car. Way back in the '80s at a show I asked someone from Chevy what became of the '69 ZL-1 show car. He believed the chassis was sold to someone from the Tech Center purportedly to build into a race car. If that happened, the car may be around but would have to have paperwork to prove its' provenance.

forgive me as I am not a Camaro guy but I find the part about &quot;the chassis being sold for a race car&quot; hard to believe.Aren't these cars unibody? so unless what he meant was the rolling body I doubt some one from the tech center would by the rear end set up and front suspension to build a race car.But who knows.There is an old timer around here who's dad was a big wig with Chevy back in the day.Who swears that one of the cars that his dad got for him to drive was a black Camaro with an aluminum 427.Who knows

[volspeed1970]

Jon those are some neat pictures. However I question the date of 1969 as the Corvette has the 1970 fender louvers on it. Did anyone notice that the front bumper on the Camaro appears to be molded in, not just the rubber bumper option from 69? Possibly the front clip is fiberglass. Notice the windshield on the Corvette is not stock as it is taller than a production one. The t-top roof leading edge is behind the windshield frame instead of on top of it. The proportions do not look right. I thought the Camaro was yellow but looking at these last two pictures it appears to be a yellow pearl or gold color instead, but I think the stripes are still black. They just look different due to the tent the car is parked under.

[TimG]

From 1974 on, I've been to Road America every summer. All though the 70's they'd bring show cars, usually Corvettes. The Mulsanne Corvette showed up many times in different configurations.

[jannes_z-28]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: William</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Since I have been in the hobby 35 years I have stories going way back.

Chevy built a 1970 Camaro ZL-1 styling car that Bill Mitchell ended up with, shown on page 110 of &quot;The Great Camaro&quot;. It was later updated with a 1978-style nose. I believe it still exists. The engine in that car was supposed to have come from the 1969 ZL-1 show car.</div></div>

Is this the one you're referring to:
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbthrea...7720#Post367720 (http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&amp;Main=34781&amp;Number=3677 20#Post367720)


Jan

[al8apex]

correct

[tom406]

The '70-style fender louvers do not mean that it can't be from '69. The '70 Corvette changes would have been finalized by calendar year '69, and GM styling exercises often tested or foreshadowed known upcoming production change, especially when you're talking about Bill Mitchell-commisioned Corvettes.

[1967Z28]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tom406</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The '70-style fender louvers do not mean that it can't be from '69. The '70 Corvette changes would have been finalized by calendar year '69, and GM styling exercises often tested or foreshadowed known upcoming production change, especially when you're talking about Bill Mitchell-commisioned Corvettes. </div></div>

I totally agree with that.

-Jon

[markjohnson]

The rear 1/4 panels on the Corvette look like the un-flared 1/4's on a typical '69. The front actually looks like it might have the 1970 front fender flares behind the front wheels. That tall windshield in killing me.......it looks like a man's receding hairline everytime I look at it!

[volspeed1970]

I only remember this car as the &quot;Scirocco&quot;, but in fact in 69 it was the &quot;Aero Coupe&quot; which showed the new for 70 louvers and the flared front fenders. It had a ZL1 that was actually 454cid, with an experimental 4-spd automatic. The car was repainted for the 70 show circuit, then received A-pillar mounted mirrors, body color front bumper and grill, new hood, and a new roof. It was used as a pace car for the Can-Am series until 1974 when it was modified by Bill Mitchell again into the Mulsanne Corvette which had lots of body and interior modifications. The one constant was the taller &amp; rounded w/s frame. It again was used as a pace car for 1975 on a limited basis. Here are two pictures I found of it on the internet as the Scirocco.

[1967Z28]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: volspeed1970</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I only remember this car as the &quot;Scirocco&quot;, but in fact in 69 it was the &quot;Aero Coupe&quot; which showed the new for 70 louvers and the flared front fenders. It had a ZL1 that was actually 454cid, with an experimental 4-spd automatic. The car was repainted for the 70 show circuit, then received A-pillar mounted mirrors, body color front bumper and grill, new hood, and a new roof. It was used as a pace car for the Can-Am series until 1974 when it was modified by Bill Mitchell again into the Mulsanne Corvette which had lots of body and interior modifications. The one constant was the taller &amp; rounded w/s frame. It again was used as a pace car for 1975 on a limited basis. Here are two pictures I found of it on the internet as the Scirocco.
</div></div>

Looks like it has '73 plates on it. Can't say this look was an improvement over the earlier version. My parents were tech inspectors (scrutineers) at Road America and we were at every race from '70 thru '74. I even got my tech license for the '73 and '74 season. Bill Mitchell used to bring show stuff like this to the track every year. The Pete Estes '68 Z/28 Camaro convertible was the '68 Road America Can-Am pace car and I believe the Camaro Cherokee was the '67 RA Can-Am pace car. Whatever Mitchell brought every year was usually used as the pace car and that went on until after I left.

-Jon

[TimG]

I remember standing at the back of the trailer to see what they were unloading.