Pontiac may be dead by monday..

[flyingn]

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/04/23/report-general-motors-to-kill-pontiac-monday/

sad....

[10/10_RS/Z28]

They may all be dead by Monday! The unions killed them just as skillfully as the military took out the pirates!!!

[markinnaples]

Maybe they'll make the G8 a Chevelle SS or something.

[daleone3]

The UAW has added no value in the last twenty years and has single handed brought the company to its knees thru it unwillingness to share in the bad times. When things are good they want it all but when things decline, they stand on the necks of good companies and make unreasonable demands. If not for the unions, we would be able to buy a car at a reasonable price and not have to worry about quality. Dont get me wrong, I drive all Chevys and am a GM loyalist but this is ridiculous that the UAW is willing to make NO concessions to assist in cost cutting measures.

Years ago up here in Framingham Mass, GM built a $3m paint plant added on to their existing facility where they built Buicks. The union took strike after GM tried to hire more people to reduce overtime and GM told them they would close the plant if they did not give a bit, and no one ever thought they would having just built the new paint plant. Guess what happened, GM padlocked it, called their bluff and put thousands out of work, people that were getting $30hr to turn 6 door bolts had to get regular paying jobs like you and me and found out the hard way that the union screwed them all in the end.

Sorry for the rant, most of the GM mess was probably avoidable.

[Keith Tedford]

Your key words Scott, were "Years ago". Over the last 15 years GM has somehow disarmed and castrated the auto workers unions in Canada and the US. In Oshawa, years ago, there were sit down strikes and all sorts of stuff. I saw the changes. Guys who retired even ten years ago would not recognize the place now. Now, if a guy threatens to call a committeeman, the foreman literally laughs in his face. They are NOT powerful unions any more, but we ARE living with the management and union mistakes of the past and it is killing the North American auto industry. They are talking the big bluff, but the unions know what it takes to keep their jobs when push comes to shove in these times. There will be concessions and big ones. Scary times ahead.
With Buick so popular in China, it was pretty obvious to me that Pontiac would be the first to go. There will be at least 2-3 more lines gone before this all shakes out.

[The Dude]

Wait a friggin minute. No Consession???? Do a google search on UAW consessions and get a clue. What are the unreasonable demands the UAW is making today. Dont bring up some plant that closed 25 years ago. The UAW has given up wages, benefits, days off, etc all in the name of saving the Big 3. Hell, if GM even gets right and hires people again they will make 14 bucks an hour. Thats not giving back??? Thats an unreasonable demand??? The UAW opened the contract, again, a few months ago. Ford workers ended the Jobs Bank, gave back paid holidays, and gave up tutition assistance. We also gave up future raises to help cover retiree health care, gave up cost of living, and no longer have the job classifications we used to have. No more cleaners, sweepers, material handlers. Only assembly work. We all work in teams like the Japanese do. And those working now will be the last to make a good wage. All new hires will make half what we do now.

So please tell me again how the UAW has done nothing.

And please tell me why the Japanese, who do not have unions, sell cars at or above the prices of union made cars with the same or below level quality.

[69 Post Sedan]

It looks as though this link needs to be read again by some. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/369586/page/0/fpart/all/vc/1

[69 Post Sedan]

[ QUOTE ]
Wait a friggin minute. No Consession???? Do a google search on UAW consessions and get a clue. What are the unreasonable demands the UAW is making today. Dont bring up some plant that closed 25 years ago. The UAW has given up wages, benefits, days off, etc all in the name of saving the Big 3. Hell, if GM even gets right and hires people again they will make 14 bucks an hour. Thats not giving back??? Thats an unreasonable demand??? The UAW opened the contract, again, a few months ago. Ford workers ended the Jobs Bank, gave back paid holidays, and gave up tutition assistance. We also gave up future raises to help cover retiree health care, gave up cost of living, and no longer have the job classifications we used to have. We all work in teams like the Japanese do.

So please tell me again how the UAW has done nothing.

And please tell me why the Japanese, who do not have unions, sell cars at or above the prices of union made cars with the same or below level quality.

[/ QUOTE ]


X2 http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif

[70 copo]

GM has no one to blame but themselves.

02'Camaro production was stopped for this POS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_SSR

Lots of guys who would have purchased a GM product left the brand after GM left part of its established core loyalty group. (Camaro owners) Many jumped to Ford and picked up stangs and then F-series too...

A senior GM official has been quoted as saying the Camaro "had to go away" It did not have to go away anymore than the SSR had to be produced. This is an example of just one of a series of bad business decisions made that resulted in the GM that we now see today.

Too bad for Pontiac. Another mistake about to be made. Tossing aside Pontiac heritage is going to be a huge mistake for whatever remains of GM.

[old5.0]

All of the major manufacturers have a long history of pi@#ing away their brand equity. GM kills Oldsmobile, a company with 100 years of equity, and they keep Saturn? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[442w30]

[ QUOTE ]

And please tell me why the Japanese, who do not have unions, sell cars at or above the prices of union made cars with the same or below level quality.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you want the guy criticizing unions to be objective, you also need to demonstrate objectivity with your comments or, at the very least, show where Japanese cars are equal in quality at best.

I also think you're mistaken, if I infer this correctly, that non-union-built cars are not as good quality-wise.

[The Dude]

The poster said the domestics dont make cars with good quality at a reasonable price. Ford is in a statistical dead heat with Toyota and Honda in terms of initial quality. And their cars are on par or cheaper in price. With current incentives they are practically giving cars away. Thats my point.

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
GM has no one to blame but themselves.

02'Camaro production was stopped for this POS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_SSR

Lots of guys who would have purchased a GM product left the brand after GM left part of its established core loyalty group. (Camaro owners) Many jumped to Ford and picked up stangs and then F-series too...

A senior GM official has been quoted as saying the Camaro "had to go away" It did not have to go away anymore than the SSR had to be produced. This is an example of just one of a series of bad business decisions made that resulted in the GM that we now see today.

Too bad for Pontiac. Another mistake about to be made. Tossing aside Pontiac heritage is going to be a huge mistake for whatever remains of GM.

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason it had to go away was impending crash standards that it would not pass. Plus no one was buying the damn car anyway. Check the production numbers of the F body in its final years. The last three years of production GM made 45, 29, and 42 thousand Camaros. No way they could make money on that volume. Or justify redesigning the car.

[The Dude]

The only people that care about Pontiacs heritage are the ones driving OLD Pontiacs. New car buyers dont give a rip about Pontiacs or Toyotas or Nissans heritage.

[JRSully]

If Pontiac goes toes up, I will very serioulsy consider buying one of those new G8 GT's asap, that is A LOT of High Performance car for the $$ and if GM stays around itself, they will have to service the stuff, could be a savvy buying opportunity

[danachevroletfor1967]

In my opinion GM started going down the tubes way back in the late 1970's when they started making a generic small block for Chevrolet, Pontiac, Buick, and Olds to all use. One could no longer get an Olds Rocket V-8, Pontiac Ram Air, Chevy only small block, etc.
Then they started switching all their cars to front wheel drive, no matter the size. Now front wheel drive may be alright for small economy cars, but I would never want it in a mid-size or larger car.
Then it seemed like GM forgot about quality in their cars all together. All they cared about was trucks and SUV's. All they cared about was what made for them the most profit, at the expense of quality cars. I feel this is what killed the Camaro as much as anything. As another poster mentioned they killed the Camaro to produce the horrendous SSR. GM hasn't had real car guys running it since the 1960's and early 1970's. Now GM has to pay the price for concentrating too much on trucks and SUV's and almost forgetting completely about cars. Why couldn't the Camaro have been redesigned with a lighter weight, smaller size, stripped version (Z28), etc. Ford did it (redesign) with the Mustang and never stopped producing it.
In my opinion GM started the long downhill road in the late 1970's and hasn't been the same since. No wonder they have the problems like they do now.

[70 copo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
GM has no one to blame but themselves.

02'Camaro production was stopped for this POS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_SSR

Lots of guys who would have purchased a GM product left the brand after GM left part of its established core loyalty group. (Camaro owners) Many jumped to Ford and picked up stangs and then F-series too...

A senior GM official has been quoted as saying the Camaro "had to go away" It did not have to go away anymore than the SSR had to be produced. This is an example of just one of a series of bad business decisions made that resulted in the GM that we now see today.

Too bad for Pontiac. Another mistake about to be made. Tossing aside Pontiac heritage is going to be a huge mistake for whatever remains of GM.

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason it had to go away was impending crash standards that it would not pass. Plus no one was buying the damn car anyway. Check the production numbers of the F body in its final years. The last three years of production GM made 45, 29, and 42 thousand Camaros. No way they could make money on that volume. Or justify redesigning the car.

[/ QUOTE ]


Only one problem with your post above. You are a little misinformed. Middlebrook (the manager who moved over from Pontiac) was the decisionmaker - and the decision to Kill both the Camaro and Firebird was made in 1997.

The 1998 redisign was engineering complete and cost finalized for production in late 1996- the issue for 2003 was rollover not crash.

The reason the car did not sell well after the 1998 redisign was linked to the redesign being only frontal and not the rear as planned. Round Corvette tail lights were planned but rejected due to cost, so sales flopped due to GM failing to freshen up the body as Ford did with the Mustang.

Also Camaro Pulled out of SCCA T/A at the time of the decision and GM then saved even more money by backing Ron Capps in NHRA Funny car.

Advertising fell to just a few ads in periodicals ONLY after the 1997 heritage TV ad campign.

You see there was plenty of time to redesign the Camaro, but the money was in trucks so instead of redesigning the F-Body they shot the wad on the SSR a low mark for quality with a roof that would not even go up or down correctly.

Bad and intentional decisions made at the corporate level.

If you think I am wrong - please be specific on what you think I am wrong on. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[Tenney]

[ QUOTE ]
In my opinion GM started going down the tubes way back in the late 1970's when they started making a generic small block for Chevrolet, Pontiac, Buick, and Olds to all use.

[/ QUOTE ]

Kinda eliminated the need for four different brands, huh?!

[442w30]

What car took over the plant from the Camaro in Canada?

Certainly there was more profit in that than building an aging F-body whose combined sales didn't match the Mustang's. Stopping the Camaro wasn't such a dumb decision from a business standpoint.

To another post . . . I don't think the general public really cares about what engine is in whichever GM car. They want to be able to get from Point A to Point B. GM's problems really started in the early-1970s with poor quality and poor gas mileage in a time when there was an oil embargo. And - admit it - the musclecars we love so much aren't really so great other than in our minds.

[70 copo]

[ QUOTE ]
What car took over the plant from the Camaro in Canada?

Certainly there was more profit in that than building an aging F-body whose combined sales didn't match the Mustang's. Stopping the Camaro wasn't such a dumb decision from a business standpoint.

[/ QUOTE ]



The original Plant was demolished. Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Therese_Assembly

I am sure that with truck sales being what they were the shareholders just loved GM's decision at the time. Within three years of the decision however-they figured out quick the real cost of lost brand loyalty and the Camaro concept was out for the media to gaze upon.

Why?? after 02' Mustang sales increased with the Camaro/Firebird defections to Ford. Chrysler was watching too so the Challenger soon returned to fill the leftover market segment.

Real expensive lesson if you ask me and since the Camaro is back - the original decision in 20/20 hindsight must have been bad after all- otherwise why is the car back?

Same mistake is coming pertaining to Pontiac and that buying segment should the brand be killed. Likely that they will not buy GM in the future as they too will feel betrayed.

[442w30]

I don't necessarily buy that prospective buyers went directly to Ford.

I also don't think the Challenger is a direct competitor to either of them. It's akin to having an Eclispe being a competitor to the Mustang - kinda, yes, but kinda, no.

The Challenger, to me, is a 2-door Charger, FWIW.

[Chevy454]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't necessarily buy that prospective buyers went directly to Ford.

I also don't think the Challenger is a direct competitor to either of them. It's akin to having an Eclispe being a competitor to the Mustang - kinda, yes, but kinda, no.

The Challenger, to me, is a 2-door Charger, FWIW.

[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree with that...I know some guys, in this podunk town of just 600 people, that were left without a car [f-body] and went to the Mustang...and soon their truck purchases followed...as did their wive's car(s). http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

And I don't see *how* the Chally isn't a competitor to the F-body/Mustang...the target audience is the same, and everyone is comparing the 3.

[442w30]

Mustang product planners discovered that when Camaro buyers couldn't afford insurance, they didn't go to a V6 Camaro - they went to a pickup truck.

Look at my Eclipse analogy again . . . the Challenger is quite a different car than the Mustang. The fact that it looks like a ponycar and it's inspired by one doesn't necessarily make it one, regardless to whom it's targeted. :twocents:

[CC Rider]

[ QUOTE ]

I disagree with that...I know some guys, in this podunk town of just 600 people, that were left without a car [f-body] and went to the Mustang...and soon their truck purchases followed...as did their wive's car(s). http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

That is EXACTLY what I did. Since the Camaro was discontinued, my once ALL CHEVY driveway now includes a Ford, Dodge, and a Nissan.

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
GM has no one to blame but themselves.

02'Camaro production was stopped for this POS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_SSR

Lots of guys who would have purchased a GM product left the brand after GM left part of its established core loyalty group. (Camaro owners) Many jumped to Ford and picked up stangs and then F-series too...

A senior GM official has been quoted as saying the Camaro "had to go away" It did not have to go away anymore than the SSR had to be produced. This is an example of just one of a series of bad business decisions made that resulted in the GM that we now see today.

Too bad for Pontiac. Another mistake about to be made. Tossing aside Pontiac heritage is going to be a huge mistake for whatever remains of GM.

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason it had to go away was impending crash standards that it would not pass. Plus no one was buying the damn car anyway. Check the production numbers of the F body in its final years. The last three years of production GM made 45, 29, and 42 thousand Camaros. No way they could make money on that volume. Or justify redesigning the car.

[/ QUOTE ]


Only one problem with your post above. You are a little misinformed. Middlebrook (the manager who moved over from Pontiac) was the decisionmaker - and the decision to Kill both the Camaro and Firebird was made in 1997.

The 1998 redisign was engineering complete and cost finalized for production in late 1996- the issue for 2003 was rollover not crash.

The reason the car did not sell well after the 1998 redisign was linked to the redesign being only frontal and not the rear as planned. Round Corvette tail lights were planned but rejected due to cost, so sales flopped due to GM failing to freshen up the body as Ford did with the Mustang.

Also Camaro Pulled out of SCCA T/A at the time of the decision and GM then saved even more money by backing Ron Capps in NHRA Funny car.

Advertising fell to just a few ads in periodicals ONLY after the 1997 heritage TV ad campign.

You see there was plenty of time to redesign the Camaro, but the money was in trucks so instead of redesigning the F-Body they shot the wad on the SSR a low mark for quality with a roof that would not even go up or down correctly.

Bad and intentional decisions made at the corporate level.

If you think I am wrong - please be specific on what you think I am wrong on. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Since when is a rollover NOT a crash??? I didnt say front impact or side impact. I said crash, which last time I checked can involve a rollover.

Production totals fell by 50% from 1995 to 1996. What was the reason for that? The numbers stayed low from that point on.

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
What car took over the plant from the Camaro in Canada?

Certainly there was more profit in that than building an aging F-body whose combined sales didn't match the Mustang's. Stopping the Camaro wasn't such a dumb decision from a business standpoint.

To another post . . . I don't think the general public really cares about what engine is in whichever GM car. They want to be able to get from Point A to Point B. GM's problems really started in the early-1970s with poor quality and poor gas mileage in a time when there was an oil embargo. And - admit it - the musclecars we love so much aren't really so great other than in our minds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. If GM made the decision to keep making engines for each brand they wouldve went bankrupt 20 years ago.

[70 copo]

[ QUOTE ]
The reason it had to go away was impending crash standards that it would not pass. Plus no one was buying the damn car anyway. Check the production numbers of the F body in its final years. The last three years of production GM made 45, 29, and 42 thousand Camaros. No way they could make money on that volume. Or justify redesigning the car.

[/ QUOTE ]


Only one problem with your post above. You are a little misinformed. Middlebrook (the manager who moved over from Pontiac) was the decisionmaker - and the decision to Kill both the Camaro and Firebird was made in 1997.

The 1998 redisign was engineering complete and cost finalized for production in late 1996- the issue for 2003 was rollover not crash.

The reason the car did not sell well after the 1998 redisign was linked to the redesign being only frontal and not the rear as planned. Round Corvette tail lights were planned but rejected due to cost, so sales flopped due to GM failing to freshen up the body as Ford did with the Mustang.

Also Camaro Pulled out of SCCA T/A at the time of the decision and GM then saved even more money by backing Ron Capps in NHRA Funny car.

Advertising fell to just a few ads in periodicals ONLY after the 1997 heritage TV ad campign.

You see there was plenty of time to redesign the Camaro, but the money was in trucks so instead of redesigning the F-Body they shot the wad on the SSR a low mark for quality with a roof that would not even go up or down correctly.

Bad and intentional decisions made at the corporate level.

If you think I am wrong - please be specific on what you think I am wrong on. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Since when is a rollover NOT a crash??? I didnt say front impact or side impact. I said crash, which last time I checked can involve a rollover.



Production totals fell by 50% from 1995 to 1996. What was the reason for that? The numbers stayed low from that point on.

[/ QUOTE ]


Yes a crash can include a rollover. Frontal impact, side impact and rear impact can be mitigated by vehicle improvements that typically do not cause a redesign.

Why new roll over standards are tougher for an auto manufacturers is due to the increased roof crush requirements which cause the entire structure of a vehicle to be revised to insure that structure is strong enough to protect against head and neck injuries- thus improvements in other structural components are needed to reduce injury severity to the crash test occupants.

Changes to crash means you reinforce what you have. Changes to rollover means a redesign.

You state the 1995 and 1996 production as reduced by 50% from year to year.

According to GM records total Camaro production for 1995 was 98,938 and in 1996 75,336.

Just where are you getting 50% from that?

[Charley Lillard]

My understanding was the reason the Camaro got killed in 2002 was simply to get out of the Union contract in Canada.

[The Dude]

http://www.camaro-registry.com/production.htm

[70 copo]

Numbers for both 1995 and 1996 listed at that web site are incorrect. Industry trade Journals did report total assembly output with a higher number in 1995 as 122,844 which was classified as "units" (Ste Therese also made firebirds) and the web site you posted above has another completely different set of production numbers which I have no idea where they got for both 1995 and 1996. Could be a combination of model year vs calander year and industry unit info mixed in.

[markinnaples]

Give me a break. GM has made Shiite for the last 20 years, and you want to compare the latest and greatest GM vehicle made to Japanese vehicles that have had excellent quality for over 30 years.

I love America, more than most, but you have to admit the American cars since about 1974 to 2005 have sucked.

My wife has a 2000 Grand Prix that is the biggest POS ever. Now, you can't expect to produce crap for 20+ years and then win some people over in two or three years.

GM and Chrysler need to go bankrupt, renegotiate the union contracts and make the best quality cars in the world, again. Then, maybe they will come back and be profitable.

[BJCHEV396]

No matter who's to blame it is pretty sad.And what division of GM is next on the chopping block?

[Late BrakeU2]

[ QUOTE ]
No matter who's to blame it is pretty sad.And what division of GM is next on the chopping block?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure Obama will let us know shortly.

[firstgenaddict]

[ QUOTE ]
My understanding was the reason the Camaro got killed in 2002 was simply to get out of the Union contract in Canada.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I remember as well... CAW

Now as far as quality... I had a 97 Toyota 4runner for 11 years and 200,000k miles... all of the interior parts were the same as when I bought it, everything worked inside and out with less than stellar maintenaince and being beat to death. My father has a 99 Suburban with half as many miles... the interior parts rattle, the doors are sagging, all kinds of things don't work and he maintains his vehicles to the Nth degree... just my experiences...

For a HD truck... Powerstroke diesel... For an everyday vehicle HONDA or TOYOTA.... Muscle... another story I'm GM all the way!

[camarojoe]

In regards to the 97-02 Camaro/Firebird...bottom line is that if the car was making them any money they wouldn't have killed it. Whatever the reason it wasn't making them any money can be argued all day, but the fact remains that if it was profitable it would not have been killed. I worked part time at a Pontiac dealer in 98-02, and Trans Ams/Firebirds sat on the lot a LONG time before they were ever sold, and half the time they were just dealer traded to someone else. Sure they were cool, but no one actually bought any. Same fate will come of the new Camaro within a few years I'm afraid....if it even makes it that long.

I'm a die hard Chevy/GM guy, and have been all my life, but I'd buy a 6 speed Challenger R/T tomorrow if I had the coin. To say this car is not direct competition with the Camaro and Mustang is rediculous. Not only is it competition for unbiased consumers, but its also cool enough to convert lifelong Ford/Chevy guys to go Mopar.

[Dayton]

I read where GM is going to idle their plants for 9 weeks this summer. The employees will draw unemployment. The difference between unemployment and the employees regular paycheck will be made up by GM, What the hell?? No wonder this company is circling the drain. Once upon a time, GM was the largest corporation in the World!

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
Give me a break. GM has made Shiite for the last 20 years, and you want to compare the latest and greatest GM vehicle made to Japanese vehicles that have had excellent quality for over 30 years.

I love America, more than most, but you have to admit the American cars since about 1974 to 2005 have sucked.



[/ QUOTE ]

Show me a 1979 Toyota or Honda still on the road. 30+ years of excellent quality? The Japanese didnt always have top notch cars. The first imports were obscenely slow, underpowered and rotted if sneezed on. What they did have was low cost and good milage. They steadily improved on it until they took over the market. But dont say that for 30 years they have been great, they were shitcans for a long time.

I can go on for hours listing great cars built by Detroit from 1974 to 2005.

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
I read where GM is going to idle their plants for 9 weeks this summer. The employees will draw unemployment. The difference between unemployment and the employees regular paycheck will be made up by GM, What the hell?? No wonder this company is circling the drain. Once upon a time, GM was the largest corporation in the World!

[/ QUOTE ]

Know, what THEY STILL ARE!! THEY STILL MAKE THE MOST VEHICLES IN THE WORLD TODAY!!!

Toyota has temporarily idled many of their plants here in the US. Know what they did with the workforce? PAID THEM NOT TO WORK. Yes, when the San Antonio TX plant was idled for three months last year Toyota paid the workers not to work. In Japanese culture it is forbidden to lay off a permanent team member. You are employed for life, no matter how bad the market or economy gets. Imagine the UAW demamding that here in the states.

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My understanding was the reason the Camaro got killed in 2002 was simply to get out of the Union contract in Canada.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I remember as well... CAW

Now as far as quality... I had a 97 Toyota 4runner for 11 years and 200,000k miles... all of the interior parts were the same as when I bought it, everything worked inside and out with less than stellar maintenaince and being beat to death. My father has a 99 Suburban with half as many miles... the interior parts rattle, the doors are sagging, all kinds of things don't work and he maintains his vehicles to the Nth degree... just my experiences...

For a HD truck... Powerstroke diesel... For an everyday vehicle HONDA or TOYOTA.... Muscle... another story I'm GM all the way!

[/ QUOTE ]

Read up on the Toyota Tacoma frame recall. Toyota bought back every Tacoma they made because the frames were falling out of them due to corrosion. Nice quality!!!!!

My F150 has 100,000 miles and is 15 years old. And it looks like a brand new truck. Whats that mean? Nothing. As your examples mean, nothing.

[92646]

There is such a fine line between success and failure in the car business. The domestic manufacture's problems did not come about because of one car line being discontinued or one group of people. This happened because of a bunch of bad decisions and missed opportunities over the years. All car makers are capable of making bad decisions. Mercedes Benz made cars that kept having tires blow out because their cars weighed too much in the 90's. I helped open a Lexus dealer that most of our sales came from loyal Cadillac customers because they were tired of all the problems they had with their cars including the 4.1 aluminum V8s, 5.7 diesels and 4,6,8 motors breaking. Just a few years ago Toyota rolled out their biggest Tundra ever with the 5.7 V8 as gas was heading to $5.00 a gallon (with a TRD supercharger you can get 500hp at the crank). It is a shame that Pontiac may go away but from what I have read GM is having their problems because they kept trying to sell trucks when the market should be buying cars. It is kind of ironic but Pontiac has only had cars in their line up for as long as I can remember.
Mark Sheppard

[Dayton]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
GM was the largest corporation in the World!

[/ QUOTE ]

Know, what THEY STILL ARE!! THEY STILL MAKE THE MOST VEHICLES IN THE WORLD TODAY!!!

[/ QUOTE ]


When I said they "used to be the largest corporation in the world", I'm not talking about cars produced, I'm talking about "market cap". As of close on friday, GM's market cap was $1.03 billion. Is any company that is only worth $1.03 in billion market cap, and declining, worth losing many billions of dollars a month for several years trying to save???
http://i398.photobucket.com/albums/pp64/ddsayeriv/th_tombstone.jpg (http://s398.photobucket.com/albums/pp64/ddsayeriv/?action=view&current=tombstone.jpg)

[442w30]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No matter who's to blame it is pretty sad.And what division of GM is next on the chopping block?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure Obama will let us know shortly.

[/ QUOTE ]

So it's the President's fault that GM has problems?

To another point, I find it hard to believe someone thinks GM has made crap through 2005. Certainly if you've had problems with your '00 Grand Prix, you have a right to be angry. But I think GM has made some pretty decent cars in the past 20 years. The dark ages were the 1970s and the X-cars. GM has had a lot of bright spots over recent history. Today, it's business model needs a drastic revamp even more than Impala.

[markinnaples]

There have been some bright spots during that time period (94-02 F bodies, new GTO, their trucks, Caddy's, etc.) but for the most part, their quality has just not been there, and that's the truth backed by millions of owners. Sorry, but that's reality.

[Tenney]

The quality of the recent domestic stuff we've had has surpassed that of our imports from a reliability standpoint (ie fewer defects/warranty repairs). Better paint/finish, too, in many cases. Interior materials not so much.

[Salvatore]

I have a 1998 GMC pickup made in Canada with 186,000 miles on it still has original paint and never been touched up and has never sat in a garage that still looks real nice. Fit, finish, quality etc. has surpassed my expectations.

[Dog427435]

I have been a loyal GM customer my whole adult life – at home my family has 6 cars, 5 of them are GM cars, the other a Ford product. I’ve purchased my daily drivers from GM every few years, I’ve had Olds 98's in the eighties and as my family grew moved to Blazers in the nineties and then Trailblazers into the 2000's.
Due to family size changes again, last year I wanted to move down in size from the Trailblazer to an Equinox. There was not one like I wanted, in my area, so I picked up a Pontiac Torrent instead. This car was not a stripper; it was loaded with everything available costing over 30k.
I have never had anything but minor problems with any of the cars I've purchased but this Pontiac had some electrical problems which took several trips to the dealer to repair.
But my real bitch is the cheapness with which this car is made. Simple things, like no lighted mirror on the back of the passenger side sun visor, no grab bars, no seat pockets etc, etc. Add to that the gas mileage is barely better then my full size Trailblazer and I scratching my head why?
Then the ultimate insult came when my daughter came down from NY in her new full size Japanese SUV that was as big as my Trailblazer, had all the amenities you could desire, got better mileage then me and cost less then my Torrent.
I’ve never owned a foreign car, but its tough staying loyal and feeling like a fool! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

[TDW]

Fritz just announced it...Pontiac is DEAD.

[MrsBillyBobcat]

Yep, it's official (along with 21,000 more job cuts) http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg133/carcrazyqt/2c837975.jpg

This is a photo of Bill's '70 in front of Causley Pontiac (on Gratiot in Clinton Township) This was, in better times, the #1 Pontiac Dealership (in terms of sales) in the world!


BTW...EVERY vehicle that Bill and I have ever had owned, both new and used, have been a GM product and we have been VERY pleased with all of them! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif Bill's last 3 trucks have been GMC's. Here's a picture I took of him (being silly http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif) the day he picked up his last one:
http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg133/carcrazyqt/963f0f63.jpg

This announcement is going to be a bummer for him http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif, as I'm sure a lot of other Pontiac enthusiasts. His dad is probably rolling in his grave! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

[bashton]

[ QUOTE ]
Yep, it's official (along with 21,000 more job cuts) http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg133/carcrazyqt/2c837975.jpg

This is a photo of Bill's '70 in front of Causley Pontiac (on Gratiot in Clinton Township) This was, in better times, the #1 Pontiac Dealership (in terms of sales) in the world!


BTW...EVERY vehicle that Bill and I have ever had owned, both new and used, have been a GM product and we have been VERY pleased with all of them! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif Bill's last 3 trucks have been GMC's. Here's a picture I took of him (being silly http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif) the day he picked up his last one:
http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg133/carcrazyqt/963f0f63.jpg

This announcement is going to be a bummer for him http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif, as I'm sure a lot of other Pontiac enthusiasts. His dad is probably rolling in his grave! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait a minute Rita; I know there was a 69 Roadrunner in your garage for, like, a week or so! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Sorry; just trying to bring a smile on this day of doom for the Detroit area.

Bashton
MCACN Managing Member

[MrsBillyBobcat]

[ QUOTE ]


Wait a minute Rita; I know there was a 69 Roadrunner in your garage for, like, a week or so! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Sorry; just trying to bring a smile on this day of doom for the Detroit area.

Bashton
MCACN Managing Member

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL Bob! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Just another wonderful day in Detroit, huh? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif At least the weather is nice! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

Actually, that Road Runner was a project...or as I call it, Bill's "therapy" http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif and it was in Bill's dad's garage http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
That was shortly after Bill's dad passed away. I had a hard time even being there that day. Here's Bill working on it...God, does he look HOT in those coveralls! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif (sorry, thinking out loud http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif)

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg133/carcrazyqt/ad0601ee.jpg

[Canuck]

New item this AM. GTO now stands for Gone To Orphanage.

http://ca.news.finance.yahoo.com/s/27042...ed-pontiac.html (http://ca.news.finance.yahoo.com/s/27042009/2/biz-finance-gm-cut-21-000-factory-jobs-shed-pontiac.html)


Paul

[SmallHurst]

The orphan car show in Yipsilati will look more like a normal car show.

[Chevy454]

[ QUOTE ]
New item this AM. GTO now stands for Gone To Orphanage.

http://ca.news.finance.yahoo.com/s/27042...ed-pontiac.html (http://ca.news.finance.yahoo.com/s/27042009/2/biz-finance-gm-cut-21-000-factory-jobs-shed-pontiac.html)


Paul

[/ QUOTE ]
Haven't y'all heard, they're Shutting Detroit Down (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gyz-DbYuRp4)... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[bashton]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
New item this AM. GTO now stands for Gone To Orphanage.

http://ca.news.finance.yahoo.com/s/27042...ed-pontiac.html (http://ca.news.finance.yahoo.com/s/27042009/2/biz-finance-gm-cut-21-000-factory-jobs-shed-pontiac.html)


Paul

[/ QUOTE ]
Haven't y'all heard, they're Shutting Detroit Down (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gyz-DbYuRp4)... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

The sad thing is, this is no exaggeration.

Things here in the Detroit area are long past bleak and not looking like they are going to be much better for a long time.

Bashton
MCACN Managing Member

[SeattleCarGuy]

One comment I have in response to GM's build quality over the past several years is that personally speaking, I have an '01 Z-06 Vette that I use exclusively as a track car on the road course. I run about 8 track events per year, full bore, driving the hell out of it at the top of the A class with various clubs I drive and instruct with. It now has 14,000 miles, almost all of which are track miles at 5000 RPM or more. Other than putting brakes on it after every 4th day and slicks after every 2nd day at the track, the car is bulletproof. No major repairs or other issues. It sits in my garage all winter, comes out in about two weeks from now for an event and never disappoints all Spring and Summer long. Great car, great engine, great reliability.

I also have an '06 Duramax with Allison trans. 56,000 miles now of towing car trailer and boat trailer and it has never had anything other than oil changes and fuel filter changes and its first trans fluid change a few thousand miles ago. Again, great quality and great reliability.

My '08 Mercedes AMG has been to the dealer for various minor issues in its first 12,000 miles. Nothing major, but still an annoyance and I always remind them of my Chevrolets' reliability.

My only beef with GM is that as a 39 year old guy, other than Chevrolet's trucks and their Vette's, I don't see myself driving anything else that Chevrolet currently makes. I like their Cadillac line, but then again, if I am gonna spend the kind of money it takes to get into a V version of one of the Caddy hot rods, then I might as well just spend the extra and get an AMG as I did.

Anyway, my two cents and I am sad to see that GM is in such bad shape right now.

[Late BrakeU2]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No matter who's to blame it is pretty sad.And what division of GM is next on the chopping block?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure Obama will let us know shortly.

[/ QUOTE ]

So it's the President's fault that GM has problems?

To another point, I find it hard to believe someone thinks GM has made crap through 2005. Certainly if you've had problems with your '00 Grand Prix, you have a right to be angry. But I think GM has made some pretty decent cars in the past 20 years. The dark ages were the 1970s and the X-cars. GM has had a lot of bright spots over recent history. Today, it's business model needs a drastic revamp even more than Impala.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said GM made crap. Quite to the contrary some of the best cars they ever made were built this decade-most certainly in the area of performance. The problem is and has been for decades bloated unions,skimpy warranties,and corporate arrogance.

You can't pay hillbillys six figures a year to screw on dashboards-then keep them on a oxygen tube until their dirt nap. That's not meant to imply they shouldn't receive bennies.

Yeah i'm pissed because most of us here are/were infinitely more passionate about GM than the last twenty years worth of CEO's. Come on the 5TH gen is a classic case in point on how to miss the boat once again. How many stangs and Challengers have been sold in the last two years?? It really doesn't matter now,they are being nationalized as we speak and yes Obama is the defacto CEO. That's what happens when you don't get your ducks lined up- they had YEARS to initiate change and elected not to trim the fat. Just wait and see what castrated products are going to be offered in a couple of years from an auto giant run by politcians. It is not this admins fault- the blame lies squarely on Lutz and Waggoner IMO

A real shame.
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

[442w30]

[ QUOTE ]

I never said GM made crap.


[/ QUOTE ]

I never said you did, hence my intro, "To another point," as I was addressing two comments in one post.

[ QUOTE ]
You can't pay hillbillys six figures a year to screw on dashboards-then keep them on a oxygen tube until their dirt nap. That's not meant to imply they shouldn't receive bennies.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think some of the folks of Michigan and elsewhere will find your comment about hillbillies to be truthful. Besides, doesn't an import manufacturer have a plant in Kentucky? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ QUOTE ]
It really doesn't matter now,they are being nationalized as we speak

[/ QUOTE ]

So when Chrysler took their loan in 1979 or so, did you consider them "nationalized?"

[ QUOTE ]
That's what happens when you don't get your ducks lined up- they had YEARS to initiate change and elected not to trim the fat.


[/ QUOTE ]

No, when you borrow some money from the government to sustain yourself, there will be some terms to be met. And judging by all the interest in numerous forums, I would think most people don't understand that GM needed to trim the fat a long time ago but didn't due to their brands being institutions. Now they're up against the wall and they have no other choice. It was a valiant effort, but it should have been done long ago. Personally, I don't blame them for resisting, but when the rest of the world operates in a competitive manner (and while the world has become more global), why did GM continue to lug this weight around?

[ QUOTE ]
Just wait and see what castrated products are going to be offered in a couple of years from an auto giant run by politcians. It is not this admins fault- the blame lies squarely on Lutz and Waggoner IMO

[/ QUOTE ]

Get over yourself - the government is not running GM, and nothing's gonna be watered down. And GM would not have its current successes without Lutz, as he opened many doors that were kept closed by GM's clumsy bureaucracy.

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]

You can't pay hillbillys six figures a year to screw on dashboards-then keep them on a oxygen tube until their dirt nap. That's not meant to imply they shouldn't receive bennies.


[/ QUOTE ]

In order to make 100,000 a year in an auto plant one would have to work 12 hours during the week and 16s on the weekends. One would have to sleep in their car between shifts and sometimes not go home for two days. And guess what? no one has made 100,000 in a long time. The days of unlimited overtime are over. A 40 hour check is all they see.

And for you information, the hillbillies that work for Toyota down in Georgetown make more than the Detroit hillbillies do. Are you pissed about that too?

[Late BrakeU2]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I never said GM made crap.


[/ QUOTE ]

Get over yourself - the government is not running GM, and nothing's gonna be watered down. And GM would not have its current successes without Lutz, as he opened many doors that were kept closed by GM's clumsy bureaucracy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly what current success's are you referring to?. When the leader of the free world can turf the CEO of the largest auto mfg in the world that my freind is a harbinger of things to come.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Late BrakeU2]

[/ QUOTE ]

In order to make 100,000 a year in an auto plant one would have to work 12 hours during the week and 16s on the weekends. One would have to sleep in their car between shifts and sometimes not go home for two days. And guess what? no one has made 100,000 in a long time. The days of unlimited overtime are over. A 40 hour check is all they see.

And for you information, the hillbillies that work for Toyota down in Georgetown make more than the Detroit hillbillies do. Are you pissed about that too?

[/ QUOTE ]

The average UAW worker with a high school degree earns 57.6% more compensation than the average university professor with a Ph.D., and 52.6% more than the average worker at Toyota, Honda or Nissan.

The cost of labor per hour for GM is nearly $80 an hour when all employee related outlays are considered.

[442w30]

[ QUOTE ]


Exactly what current success's are you referring to?. When the leader of the free world can turf the CEO of the largest auto mfg in the world that my freind is a harbinger of things to come.


[/ QUOTE ]

Current successes?

- Corvette in all its iterations
- Competitive Chevy Malibu and Saturn Aura models
- Gorgeous styling of the Solstice and Sky
- Everything Caddy touches
- Buick's success in quality polls
- Their trucks are always dependable

Want more? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

Could you offer some evidence of your slippery slope? When Chrysler had their loan, it wasn't a harbinger. Methinks you're using a political bias to make a populist point that doesn't have any foundation of truth.

[Late BrakeU2]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Exactly what current success's are you referring to?. When the leader of the free world can turf the CEO of the largest auto mfg in the world that my freind is a harbinger of things to come.


[/ QUOTE ]

Current successes?

- Corvette in all its iterations
- Competitive Chevy Malibu and Saturn Aura models
- Gorgeous styling of the Solstice and Sky
- Everything Caddy touches
- Buick's success in quality polls
- Their trucks are always dependable

Want more? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

Could you offer some evidence of your slippery slope? When Chrysler had their loan, it wasn't a harbinger. Methinks you're using a political bias to make a populist point that doesn't have any foundation of truth.

[/ QUOTE ]

The truth is these great design wins( not being facetious,read my above post) you have mentioned haven't hepled them turn a profit. The problem is not in the product,but the Union.
What was once a benefit has now become an entitlement, and how dare anyone question an entitlement??. While the UAW fairly negotiated retirement and health care plans, no one, on either side, factored the ultimate cost of those benefits. Once in contract law, those plans become entitlements and are therefore sacrosanct.They become "the cost of doing business". G.M., Ford, and Chrysler are the U.S. in microcosm - the "promises" cannot be kept without bankrupting the parent corporation. A slippery slope indeed..

The diff between Chrysler in 1980 and now was they actually had a real LEADER and VISIONARY who volunteered to work for a buck a year-not pushed to do it. Like Gene Stallings said in Forrest Gump "We sure could used him now"

[JoeG]

Bye Bye Miss American Pie............not too many slices left.............

[The Dude]

Gross wage of a UAW worker is around 54,000 a year. 2007 was the first year Toyota workers made more than the UAW wage.

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/01/31/toyota-workers-in-us-made-more-than-uaw-members-for-first-time-l/

http://factcheckcms.bootnetworks.com/articles/articleview.php?id=865

http://www.uaw.org/auto/11_25_08auto2.cfm

[TDW]

Look, I live in what used to be the heart of GM and the UAW. My customer base for close to 40 years has been the GM workers. They is NO WAY they make 70 per hour. Here is a video of how the media came up with that rediculous number. Come on people, does anyone with half a brain think someone on the line makes 70 bucks an hour for "putting some bolts in a dash"?

http://www.uaw.org/auto/12_01_08auto1.cfm

[442w30]

[ QUOTE ]

The truth is these great design wins( not being facetious,read my above post) you have mentioned haven't hepled them turn a profit. The problem is not in the product,but the Union.

[/ QUOTE ]

While the Unions have their own issues (I'd rather see them gone, but that's unrealistic), it's absolutely unfair to put blame on them while touting product. What you're missing is that GM's business model sucks. If product is king, how come a profit is so hard to come by? Place blame where it belongs - in the towers of the Ren Cen in downtown Detroit.


[ QUOTE ]

The diff between Chrysler in 1980 and now was they actually had a real LEADER and VISIONARY who volunteered to work for a buck a year-not pushed to do it. Like Gene Stallings said in Forrest Gump "We sure could used him now"

[/ QUOTE ]

Ask veterans at Chrysler what they think of Lido. Chances are they don't think of him too fondly. However, he has a great PR agent. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[70 copo]

Looks like it's over. The Government and the UAW now essentually own GM.

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2009/04/government_uaw_to_own_89_perce.html

Be sure to read the comments to the article that follow

[Dog427435]

An e-mail I received from Pontiac




Dear Glenn,

I wanted you to hear directly from General Motors about an important
announcement we made recently to phase out the Pontiac brand by year end 2010. As a Pontiac owner, you are part of a rich heritage and tradition that had its inception back in 1926. Pontiac has some of the best-looking, best-driving and best-engineered cars in the U.S., and this was a particularly difficult business decision for us to make.

As a valued Pontiac and General Motors customer, I want to assure you that we are very sensitive to your concerns and needs. Pontiac will continue in operation through the end of 2010 and, following that date, you will continue to be able to receive service on your Pontiac vehicle at any Buick-Pontiac-GMC Dealer. Your Pontiac vehicle warranty coverage is unchanged. Please refer to your vehicle warranty booklet for specific details on your vehicle's coverage.

As GM reinvents itself for you and our future customers, we want to thank you for your business. We will work hard to keep you in our family, providing some of the finest quality vehicles in the world.

If you have any concerns or questions, please feel free to call our Pontiac Customer Assistance Center at 1-800-762-2737.

Sincerely,


Susan E. Docherty
North American Vice President
Buick-Pontiac-GMC



General Motors Corporation • P.O. Box 33170 • Detroit, Michigan 48232-5170
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


If you prefer not to receive any unsolicited marketing emails regarding GM vehicles, click here.

To review the GM Privacy Statement, click here.

For Copyright & Trademark Information, click here.

GM, the GM logo and the slogans, emblems, vehicle model names, vehicle body designs and other marks appearing in this email are the trademarks and/or service marks of General Motors Corporation, its subsidiaries, affiliates or licensors. ©2009 General Motors Corp. Buckle up, America!

General Motors Corporation
P.O. Box 33170
Detroit, MI 48232-5170

[JoeG]

[ QUOTE ]
An e-mail I received from Pontiac




Dear Glenn,




If you have any concerns or questions, please feel free to call our Pontiac Customer Assistance Center at 1-800-762-2737.

Sincerely,



President http://http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii145/PICCARY/200px-Seal_Of_The_President_Of_The_.png




General Motors Corporation • P.O. Box 33170 • Detroit, Michigan 48232-5170
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


If you prefer not to receive any unsolicited marketing emails regarding GM vehicles, click here.

To review the GM Privacy Statement, click here.

For Copyright & Trademark Information, click here.

GM, the GM logo and the slogans, emblems, vehicle model names, vehicle body designs and other marks appearing in this email are the trademarks and/or service marks of General Motors Corporation, its subsidiaries, affiliates or licensors. ©2009 General Motors Corp. Buckle up, America!

General Motors Corporation
P.O. Box 33170
Detroit, MI 48232-5170

[/ QUOTE ]

[RamAirDave]

Will PHS be affected by this? I wouldn't think so, but don't know how much (if any) direct affiliation they have with Pontiac.

[JoeG]

Pretty sure all those PHS documents have been smuggled out of the country and are safe.........

[442w30]

They are being hidden in the same crypt that houses the Chevy docs. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[CamarosRus]

10 Greatest Pontiac's of ALL TIME ???????

http://www.autoblog.com/photos/top-10-greatest-pontiacs-of-all-time/1518641/