Reproduction Documentation

[Shevelle]

This is pathetic http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
This is an ad placed on the Orlando Craigslist.

Reproduction Documentation (http://orlando.craigslist.org/pts/1149196998.html)

In case it disappears, here's what it says and the photos of his work:

<font color="blue">GM 1962-1972 reproduction documentation thats been aged to perfection!
CHEVELLE, IMPALA, CAMARO and NOVA ae well!
If your in need of reproduction documentation thats created for your car and your car only?... please contact us here.

The pictures below are a pefect example of the type of work we do.

This work can be seen around the world! from magazines to major car auctions!

If you have any questions at all?... please let us know.

Thank You.
</font>

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c295/imnokla/Forums/fake01.jpg

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c295/imnokla/Forums/fake02.jpg

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c295/imnokla/Forums/fake03.jpg

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c295/imnokla/Forums/fake04.jpg

[PeteLeathersac]

Looks like the 'work' of Brian Mallyon from Calgary Canada?.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif
~ Pete

[Shevelle]

Found out he's the guy that is selling on eBay. Seller ID vin-number-aged

[Salvatore]

And alot of you guys will NOT buy a car without paper??? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif A car has to stand on its own. Pays to buy a car that may be fixed up and not completely restored. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[old5.0]

[ QUOTE ]
And alot of you guys will NOT buy a car without paper??? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif A car has to stand on its own. Pays to buy a car that may be fixed up and not completely restored. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[/ QUOTE ]


But even then it may not help. If you've got someone that really takes their time and does their research, they can put together a car that'll fool all but maybe a handful of experts. And with the number of high-end cars I've seen laying in salvage yards and ditches missing not only the tags, but the body numbers too... well, I can't imagine how many fake cars are making the rounds out there right now.

[Les Quam]

Unbelievable. That really looks like the real thing.

[Terry24]

Quote from Frank Burns from MASH, when asking a Korean national.......
"Do you have any papers to prove that these are your papers??"

[Salvatore]

Yes, I see many cars in the older bone yards with trim tags removed. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

[SBR]

[ QUOTE ]
And alot of you guys will NOT buy a car without paper??? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif A car has to stand on its own. Pays to buy a car that may be fixed up and not completely restored. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[/ QUOTE ] Exactly, I personally prefer a car with a full traceable ownership history than a car that appears out of nowhere which is fully documented. There is nothing better than talking to the original owner about a car that you own, its even better if he has some vintage pics as well. That to me is priceless.
I also think that with all of the bogus paperwork out there that the premium paid for the great unrestored cars will dramatically increase over the years IMHO.

[1969l78]

I was able to track the complete ownership of my L78 nova and it was so cool to talk to the first owner, he had great stories and told me what dealer he bought it from. I also talked to the second owner and got great stories from him also. That makes the car priceless in my opinion.. I got the first two owners to write me a little history on the car and they signed them for me, and also got vintage pictures from when they each owned it. It will be cool to show off that stuff at shows. That to me is priceless..

[quick-bowtie]

2 words that mean more than any paper work to me.

OWNER HISTORY

[Salvatore]

YEP! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[Les Quam]

What this guy is doing is destructive on so many levels. It is hard to make a credible argument that he produces them for any other reason other than to facilitate an act of fraud.

[69SSZL1]

Owner history is next!

[69 L88]

[ QUOTE ]
2 words that mean more than any paper work to me.

OWNER HISTORY

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes that is the best Documentation , And good old car guys, Also Top Notch car forums like this &amp; NCRS http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[GMC_Typhoon]

[ QUOTE ]
What this guy is doing is destructive on so many levels. It is hard to make a credible argument that he produces them for any other reason other than to facilitate an act of fraud.

[/ QUOTE ]Gotta agree 100%,but what can you do?

He could put it in a frame and sell it as "art" http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[bashton]

This turns my stomach.

Bashton
MCACN Managing Member

[CamaroNOS]

What can you do?

I have ALWAYS said it and so does Quick Bowtie....OWNER HISTORY.

Every car has a history, there are no two ways around it. The seller purchaser from somebody who purchased it from somebody and so on and so forth.

Ask the vender about the history, he/she will/should have previous owners names, addresses and phone numbers. Take the time to investigate. If the seller does not have it, run for the hills!

I hate to say it, I know there are way too many cars out there with amazing paperwork. How is that possible ALL of the time? I have owned a lot of muscle cars in my time and very few of them ever came with any paperwork. Let alone the extensive paperwork that comes with so many vehicles today.

I will repeat it again, Owner History. It does not lie.


Regards

[Stefano]

It is the combination of all the elements discussed here, as well as a few others, which should be considered in order to make a decision. Some of the decisions may be easier than others. Anyone using just one of the aspects discussed as their sole criteria, may be in for a big disappointment.

[69SSZL1]

My point is owner history will be faked next, or maybe has already. Fake docs, fake paper trail, leads to 2 or 3 accomplices with phone calls, photos, and stories and more fake ownership papers. Could this happen?

[JAD]

I have heard the paper and ink can be tested by a forensic lab that specializes in documents.They can then give you an approximate age of both.I think most major cities would have someone who does this.

[Tommy_Mathison]

[ QUOTE ]
I have heard the paper and ink can be tested by a forensic lab that specializes in documents.They can then give you an approximate age of both.I think most major cities would have someone who does this.

[/ QUOTE ]

The draw back of carbon dating is that it requires a piece of what is being tested to be destroyed.

[CamaroNOS]

Wow, I never thought about planting bogus previous owners with phone numbers and a pretty little story to go with them in order to sell a high priced car. If that is the case, you could always ask them to put their history on a piece of paper and get it notarized by a neutral party lawyer. This should bluff out even the best poker players and most likely make them run for the hills.

Anything and everything is possible. It is kind of sad to say the least.

I guess we are spoiled up here in Ontario. When you sell a car, the Ministry of Transportation (your equiveleant of the D.O.T.) issues the seller a printed Sellers Kit that serves two real purposes. One is it documents if the vehicle has any liens against it but more importantly for research purposes, it docuemts all of the previous owners of that vehicle from 1973. This ownership documentation cannot be altered. It is based on the ownership history from 1973, kept by the M.T.O. It should be mentioned that a prospective buyer can also request this package as well.

For the members information, anybody/anywhere can request this information from the Ontario Ministry of Transportation for any car that was owned by a private owner or business in the province of Ontario. The cost is ONLY $20. Could be the best twenty bucks you have ever spent!

If wanted, I could supply the contact information. Once again, this list of previous owners could be the breaking straw for a lot of deals, both past and present.

It is pretty much fool proof.


Regards

[old5.0]

[ QUOTE ]
My point is owner history will be faked next, or maybe has already. Fake docs, fake paper trail, leads to 2 or 3 accomplices with phone calls, photos, and stories and more fake ownership papers. Could this happen?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hadn't thought of that, but yeah, why not? With some of these cars bringing six and even seven figures, the crooks will get more and more creative, and willing to take bigger and bigger risks. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

[69L72RS]

[ QUOTE ]
The draw back of carbon dating is that it requires a piece of what is being tested to be destroyed.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are a few ways, besides carbon dating, that documents can be dated without destoying them.

[old5.0]

I did a quick search related to vintage blank paper, and got several pages of hits. I didn't see anything that looked like buildsheet blanks or anything, but I'm not a paper expert. I also only spent about 2 minutes looking.

[BARN FIND]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, I never thought about planting bogus previous owners with phone numbers and a pretty little story to go with them in order to sell a high priced car. If that is the case, you could always ask them to put their history on a piece of paper and get it notarized by a neutral party lawyer. This should bluff out even the best poker players and most likely make them run for the hills.

Regards

[/ QUOTE ]

You are thinking like an honest person. First of all, about all a notary does is say " this person is in fact the person who is signing this document" and second of all for this much money a crook will be a... crook!!!
Also in many states a Notary does not have to have any legal background. So if a car is presented to you with a ton of already notarized documnetation are you going to ask for it to be notarized again.

[PeteLeathersac]

[ QUOTE ]
Found out he's the guy that is selling on eBay. Seller ID vin-number-aged

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you mean it is Brian Mallyon from Calgary Canada?.

Couple more things if this is the guy...

I believe Brian Mallyon is an NCRS Member in good standing..

I looked at some of his auction history a few years back and included was his purchasing of old paper w/ correct water marks etc..

Lots of great comments here as usual but what can we do?.
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

~ Pete

[Shevelle]

No, Pete. I meant that the guy with the Craigslist ads is the guy on eBay with the user ID vin-number-aged. We sent him an email pretending to be interested and he indicated he was located in Florida. He has many auctions running on Ebay currently:
vin-number-aged (http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/vin-number-aged_W0QQ_nkwZQQ_armrsZ1QQ_fromZQQ_mdoZQQ_sopZ12)

[bashton]

What is as scary as this guys obvious intent to assist in defrauding people, is reading his eBay feedback showing how happy his customers are with his product, and knowing what may happen afterwords.

Oh yeah...created just as a "Novelty for show only,NOT OFFICIAL".

Sorry to rant...this just hits a nerve with me.

Bashton
MCACN Managing Member

[69L72RS]

What you/WE as a group or in mass effort can do to voice our opinion.

Log onto Ebay and report his items and any other like items from other sellers. Use one of the counterfeit options for the report basis. If enough reports are generated maybe Ebay will get the hint and pull the auctions.

150342738722
150342845441
150342737799
150342738722
150342739500
150342736708
150341572115


Loosely interpreted he is selling the intent to deceive with his “reproduction” documentation that will be “Just in time for that next car show”.
IMHO intent to deceive is present even if the intent to commit fraud is not.


From Wikipedia:
[edit] Counterfeiting of documents
Main article: Forgery
Forgery is the process of making or adapting documents with the intention to deceive. It is a form of fraud, and is often a key technique in the execution of identity theft. Uttering and publishing is a term in United States law for the forgery of non-official documents, such as a trucking company's time and weight logs.
Questioned document examination is a scientific process for investigating many aspects of various documents, and is often used to examine the provenance and verity of a suspected forgery. Security printing is a printing industry specialty, focused on creating documents which are difficult or impossible to forge.


Alternate solution:

Rope + tree + counterfieter = happier hobby

[rubbinisracing]

[ QUOTE ]
My point is owner history will be faked next, or maybe has already. Fake docs, fake paper trail, leads to 2 or 3 accomplices with phone calls, photos, and stories and more fake ownership papers. Could this happen?

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly!!

In the near future the original and subsequent owners of these cars will no longer be around to speak with. The forging of fake owner history is/has already occuring including fake signed and notarized affidavits from previous owners. These are easier to reproduce than build sheets, tank stickers, broadcast sheets, etc. A video interview with the original owner showing his/her ID along with the documents and present owner is the best provenance I can think of.

Stefano's right, it's the total package that counts.

[TDW]

Didn't a guy from Florida that was selling fake documents come on the board a while back, defending what he does? Seems like his name was Jim.

[bergy]

People who try hard enough can fake any documentation, but notarized original owner statements with current phone number of original owner is pretty tough to fake. If you can't talk to the original owner (or next of kin) - it's a big problem. Also, Canadian documentation is pretty solid (thanks GM Canada).

[PeteLeathersac]

In my notes I have a Florida guy's name recorded who deals in cooked documents and goes by the name of James 'Jimmy' Dipersia...could be the same guy?.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
~ Pete

[SBR]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My point is owner history will be faked next, or maybe has already. Fake docs, fake paper trail, leads to 2 or 3 accomplices with phone calls, photos, and stories and more fake ownership papers. Could this happen?

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly!!

In the near future the original and subsequent owners of these cars will no longer be around to speak with. The forging of fake owner history is/has already occuring including fake signed and notarized affidavits from previous owners. These are easier to reproduce than build sheets, tank stickers, broadcast sheets, etc. A video interview with the original owner showing his/her ID along with the documents and present owner is the best provenance I can think of.

Stefano's right, it's the total package that counts.

[/ QUOTE ]
That is exactly what I am doing this year when my car is going for the Bloomington Gold certification. I have invited three of the previous owners to attend. Lets face it we're not getting any younger and eventually the original owners will all be gone so if anyone has the abililty to do this then they should. Also as Joe mentioned I believe there is a way to tell the appoximate age of a document so that it an option as well. As stated before paperwork is just one piece of the total package. Buyer beware.

[SIR-VIVOR]

The next thing you know someone will get some old man who can't hear or speak anymore and might not remember much and just have him say he bought the car new. Like anything else, you just have to be an eductated consumer and do the homework.

[Enoch]

I have not posted here in a few years but had to chime in here. Unfortunately you guys are behind the 8 ball here and playing catch up. Owner history/provinence have been faked for years. I know several shop owners that have been offered LARGE sums of money to falsify a cars options/owner history and restoration photos. This has been going on since the mid 80's. And I'm sure it has gone on in the past with Dusenburgs and such.

Rich

[66 L78 ragtop]

http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=272271

[beater68427]

In my eye those docs fit in with a Taiwan repop china stamped pos 1st gen body.... For a PT purpose built car the repo body has a source I guess, but should be vin affixed like a factory five glass car or any other "KIT" car thats what they are, not for re-vin or fraudulent use. The docs seem to fit the same market as the rest of repo or fake cars and parts out there.

[TDW]

[ QUOTE ]
Didn't a guy from Florida that was selling fake documents come on the board a while back, defending what he does? Seems like his name was Jim.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the post I was thinking about.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/261376/page/0/fpart/1/vc/1

[x Baldwin Motion]

That thread has "The Best of Joey" now banned on all wind up HEMI-powered radios !! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[ QUOTE ]
What can you do?

I have ALWAYS said it and so does Quick Bowtie....OWNER HISTORY.
So far I"ve always put my faith in GM Canada docs, but yes owner history is priceless. And so are many other ideas in this discussion.
Every car has a history, there are no two ways around it. The seller purchaser from somebody who purchased it from somebody and so on and so forth.

Ask the vender about the history, he/she will/should have previous owners names, addresses and phone numbers. Take the time to investigate. If the seller does not have it, run for the hills!

I hate to say it, I know there are way too many cars out there with amazing paperwork. How is that possible ALL of the time? I have owned a lot of muscle cars in my time and very few of them ever came with any paperwork. Let alone the extensive paperwork that comes with so many vehicles today.

I will repeat it again, Owner History. It does not lie.


Regards

[/ QUOTE ]

[LS6 RAT]

I've met and spoken with Jim Clemens at the Corvettes @ Carlisle meet. I know that he buys original documentation pieces, and they are pricey, but he does come across some valuable paperwork, that some owners of these cars might want to acquire.

[Bill Rose]

Just thought I'd throw this little story out there. This is a shot of the original owner of my 68 Chevelle, taken at Chevellabration a couple years ago. I tracked him down thru some of the original paper I got with the car. I have the original invoice, pop, etc, and I decided one night that I'd try to track him down. All I had was a name, and the address on the invoice. I wasn't sure he was still "with us" even. I just googled the name, and the old address from the invoice. The next day I called the number, I'd found for that address, and an 80 year old man answered the phone. I asked if he'd bought a new Grecian Green 68 SS-396 Chevelle 40 yrs ago. He said no, but his son did. Long story short, I contacted the son, and he was blown away, that someone restored his old hot rod. He never dreamed someone would contact him about his Chevelle. He still lived in Alabama, near his dad, and came up to Nashville to see the car I'd brought to Chevellabration.

http://i533.photobucket.com/albums/ee335/wrrose/100_923.jpg

[beater68427]

THATS COOL!!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif

[m22mike]

That's neat Bill. So was the guy blown away when he saw his old car ?

Mike

[PeteLeathersac]

Cool story and another good example of how tracking the history of these cars really is possible!.

Considering the flourishing fake document games of late, an authentic owner history is increasing in importance daily...even for the cars w/ solid documents!.

So did you let him drive the car again? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif
~ Pete

[Bill Rose]

[ QUOTE ]
That's neat Bill. So was the guy blown away when he saw his old car ?

Mike

[/ QUOTE ]
He's a fairly quiet guy, and not really a car guy. He'd never been to a car show. I think he was blown away not only looking at his 1st car all restored, but the 400+ Chevelles at the show. He stood there in the hot sun for 2 hours and talked about the 68 Chevelle. It was his 1st car, and it was brand new.
[ QUOTE ]
Cool story and another good example of how tracking the history of these cars really is possible!.

Considering the flourishing fake document games of late, an authentic owner history is increasing in importance daily...even for the cars w/ solid documents!.

So did you let him drive the car again? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif
~ Pete

[/ QUOTE ]

He wouldn't even sit in it. I told him it was to sit in it, and he said he'd be afraid to. He came with his daughter, and she took a bunch of pictures. I learned just about everything you'd want to know about the car too.

[69 L88]

[ QUOTE ]
Just thought I'd throw this little story out there. This is a shot of the original owner of my 68 Chevelle, taken at Chevellabration a couple years ago. I tracked him down thru some of the original paper I got with the car. I have the original invoice, pop, etc, and I decided one night that I'd try to track him down. All I had was a name, and the address on the invoice. I wasn't sure he was still "with us" even. I just googled the name, and the old address from the invoice. The next day I called the number, I'd found for that address, and an 80 year old man answered the phone. I asked if he'd bought a new Grecian Green 68 SS-396 Chevelle 40 yrs ago. He said no, but his son did. Long story short, I contacted the son, and he was blown away, that someone restored his old hot rod. He never dreamed someone would contact him about his Chevelle. He still lived in Alabama, near his dad, and came up to Nashville to see the car I'd brought to Chevellabration.

http://i533.photobucket.com/albums/ee335/wrrose/100_923.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

After a long search i talked to the 2nd owner of my L88 , He still lives in CA , He was happy to hear from me , But not as happy as i was , HERE is the picture he found and sent me
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r24/73gts/69VETTEPHOTOTAKENIN1977CA.jpg