Photos of Proteam's Barn Found L88-Restored

[66 L78 ragtop]

Does anyone have photos of Proteam's Barn Found L88 Corvette after it Naber's resto?

I heard it won best in class at Keels & Wheels Concours d'Elegance.

For those that have not seen these photos
http://www.thel88corvette.com/

[SBR]

Orlando, I checked Keels and wheels website and it did not show the L88. I would also love to see it restored. It will be at the special collection at Bloomington.

[66 L78 ragtop]

Thanks...sounds like this L88 has gone from wrecks to riches...Barry White would be proud...Can't wait to see it

[69 L88]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks...sounds like this L88 has gone from wrecks to riches...Barry White would be proud...Can't wait to see it

[/ QUOTE ]

I will see if i can get some photos of the Red L88 Conv

[66 L78 ragtop]

Looking forward to the photos

Some trivia
Did you know that the Barn Found 68 is just 60 or so vin numbers from Chris P...killer 68 L88 conv?
Not to mention they were both restored by the Nabers

[AutoInsane]

Where on the site (from the link in the first post) are the pics of the ProTeam L88??

[SIR-VIVOR]

Thanks Orlando. I feel very fortunate to have found one of a handful of '68 L88 convertibles with its unquestionable drivetrain and paperwork when I did. You can come drive it in Texas in July or August anytime and see what overheats first, you or the car!

[69 L88]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks Orlando. I feel very fortunate to have found one of a handful of '68 L88 convertibles with its unquestionable drivetrain and paperwork when I did. You can come drive it in Texas in July or August anytime and see what overheats first, you or the car!

[/ QUOTE ]

Chris ,Over the years how many L88's have you located,And what is your favorite car of all time ?
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[SIR-VIVOR]

Never really tracked L88's just bought some. My black/black unrestored '67 Z28 tops my list as my dad and I would go for rides when I was a teenager and my friend owned it at the time. I knew it was special then.

[66 L78 ragtop]

[ QUOTE ]
My black/black unrestored '67 Z28 tops my list as my dad and I would go for rides when I was a teenager and my friend owned it at the time. I knew it was special then.

[/ QUOTE ]

And that is PRICELESS http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[69 L88]

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r24/73gts/red68l88.jpg

Here is the 68 L88 Convertible http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[SBR]

The car looks great! It is simply amazing what Nabers can do. To say the car was rough is an understatement.

[Mike]

Was that the car that was at the November Chevy-Vettefest?

[66 L78 ragtop]

[ QUOTE ]
Was that the car that was at the November Chevy-Vettefest?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes

Amazing transformation, she's beautiful...almost hard to believe its the same car...Thanks for posting the photo

As far as I know, the rear and trans are both original.
Did they use an original L88 motor or crate engine?
Or was the original motor tracked down and reunited?

He was asking a pretty penny before the restoration, I wonder what the price tag is now.. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

Please post more photos as they become available
Would love to see the interior and engine bay

Thanks again for posting

[SBR]

Orlando, the original motor is long gone. I believe that the price now is around 500K. Go to proteams website, maybe there is more pictures there.

[69 L88]

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r24/73gts/l88.jpghttp://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r24/73gts/21-1iibn.jpg

[66 L78 ragtop]

Thanks for the photos...beautiful car.

[69 L88]

no problem, they did a nice resto on a great car

[gexhaust]

Are there any pictures of the undercarriage of that car? I believe we outfitted it with one of our new Corvette exhaust systems and since it is such a high profile car I wanted to see how it looks.

Eric Gardner

[737Driver]

At the risk of stirring debate, someone is going to judge the stamp pad at an NCRS event this year (can't imagine who that might be) so how do you think it will go? It is, admittedly, a replacement motor, so, how should it be judged? Based on the pictures (bad move) will it pass muster?

[SBR]

[ QUOTE ]
At the risk of stirring debate, someone is going to judge the stamp pad at an NCRS event this year (can't imagine who that might be) so how do you think it will go? It is, admittedly, a replacement motor, so, how should it be judged? Based on the pictures (bad move) will it pass muster?

[/ QUOTE ]Mark, based on the rules currently in place, I would guess that the stamp will pass the muster so to speak. At least everyone in the Corvette community knows the history of the car so hopefully whoever buys the car will know its history and buy it for what it is not what they think it is.

[69 L88]

[ QUOTE ]
Are there any pictures of the undercarriage of that car? I believe we outfitted it with one of our new Corvette exhaust systems and since it is such a high profile car I wanted to see how it looks.

Eric Gardner

[/ QUOTE ]
I haven't seen any yet

[69 L88]

[ QUOTE ]
At the risk of stirring debate, someone is going to judge the stamp pad at an NCRS event this year (can't imagine who that might be) so how do you think it will go? It is, admittedly, a replacement motor, so, how should it be judged? Based on the pictures (bad move) will it pass muster?

[/ QUOTE ]
This car looks real nice , should go 98% or higher ?? range,NCRS Top Flight , AND BLOOMINGTON GOLD,
Nabor brothers did a great job, I think it will be at the Special Collection this year

[MosportGreen66]

[ QUOTE ]
At the risk of stirring debate, someone is going to judge the stamp pad at an NCRS event this year (can't imagine who that might be) so how do you think it will go? It is, admittedly, a replacement motor, so, how should it be judged? Based on the pictures (bad move) will it pass muster?

[/ QUOTE ]

I posed the same question about the "Last '67" and got a mouth full by some Proteam faithfuls on this board. I think if this same car or any other bbc '67 was brought to an NCRS or Bloomington meet and the owner wasn't of high status in the Corvette circle, the car would be booted if the pad was found to be a restamp. I am an NCRS and Bloomington fan, I think they're the single greatest organizations for the preservation and restoration of any collector car of any make out there. The system needs clear refinement.

[SBR]

I agree with mosport and while I admire what NCRS and Bloomington Gold in what they are trying to achieve, the system is in need of revision. Whether each of those organizations like it or not, their top awards validate, authenticate cars for a lot of uneducated buyers. The more people that get burned the worse it is for the overall health of the hobby. What I do not agree with mosport is that a judge will evaluate a pad based on apperance not if he knows its a restamp. In other words if the pad looks to be typical production it will pass even if he knows its a restamp, thats the problem in my opinion.

[PeteLeathersac]

To be clear, if you admit it's a restamp doesn't the car get 'boxed' and can't pass this judging area...legit looking restamp or not?.

Is NCRS and Bloomington's definition of a "restoration engine" an admitted restamp or not?.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
~ Pete

[SBR]

Pete, the car will not be boxed even if the owner admits its a restamp. A restoration engine is a polite way to say restamp. The judging is based on "appearance" Bloomington/NCRS promotes restoration/preservation. They do not condone counterfeiting.

[TimG]

On the same note, the owner of a car is not asked if the engine is a restamp or if it is the original motor. No ask, no tell. I don't know of anyone that would volunteer the fact that their engine is not the original one and any word of mouth isn't supposed to influence the judges. That being said, a judging leader may recommend that a car be removed from judging rather than move forward with the process.
If the judges are certain that an engine is not the original stamp, they may convey this to the owner and offer them the opportunity to withdraw the car rather than have it put in writing that the engine is not typical factory production. This holds true for an even worse offense, the trim tag or VIN plate.

[SIR-VIVOR]

In my opinion, the true judging is the sale price. Educated consumers will pay more for a car with an original motor and paperwork. I think?

[SBR]

I agree with Chris in that the very best cars usually trade quietly among collectors for big money. The problem is that lots of buyers do not want to make the investment in time ie. getting involved within the hobby, educating themselves and getting to know the people who know where the best cars are at. For these people it's a whole lot easier to buy a car with a Top Flight award or Bloomington Gold award then it is to get invloved if you will.

[704EVER]

[ QUOTE ]
Pete, the car will not be boxed even if the owner admits its a restamp. A restoration engine is a polite way to say restamp. The judging is based on "appearance" Bloomington/NCRS promotes restoration/preservation. They do not condone counterfeiting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very informative to say the least and I know this is probably a redundant question for the NCRS/Bloomington guys. But how can they not condone counterfeiting, yet accept restamps? A restamp is a restamp, no more, no less. In other circles of collector cars the stamp pad is 1 of the "Holy Grails", you either have it or you don't. What am I missing here?

[69 L88]

[ QUOTE ]
Pete, the car will not be boxed even if the owner admits its a restamp. A restoration engine is a polite way to say restamp. The judging is based on "appearance" Bloomington/NCRS promotes restoration/preservation. They do not condone counterfeiting.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with SBR , The NCRS OR Bloomington doesn't condone fake, or fraud of a car, If you take a small block 67 and make a 435 car out of it and try to say that's the way it rolled off the line at GM that's wrong, That is not the same thing as having a 69 ZL1 and have the motor blow up and replace it with another engine,Just look at all the high dollar race cars that have sold in the past , they have had there engine replaced at one time or more,
When you restore a car that is what you do to it , try to put it back as close as possible to the way it rolled off the GM line back when it was new, http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[SBR]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pete, the car will not be boxed even if the owner admits its a restamp. A restoration engine is a polite way to say restamp. The judging is based on "appearance" Bloomington/NCRS promotes restoration/preservation. They do not condone counterfeiting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very informative to say the least and I know this is probably a redundant question for the NCRS/Bloomington guys. But how can they not condone counterfeiting, yet accept restamps? A restamp is a restamp, no more, no less. In other circles of collector cars the stamp pad is 1 of the "Holy Grails", you either have it or you don't. What am I missing here?

[/ QUOTE ] I am with you on the point of the motor being the holy grail, I personally will not buy a car with a restamped motor, thats just my preference. However Tom makes a great point in that there are many great cars/race cars etc. that have had their motors replaced and are restored to factory spec and rightfully so. The problem lies that there is nothing on a Bloomington Gold award or an NCRS Top Flight award that separates a real motor from a restamp and that is what needs to be addressed in my humble opinion. Like Chris said earlier the top collectors know the difference and pay up for it but thanks in large part to the media/auction hype BS and not taking the time to educate themselves a buyer does not have all the information to make an informed purchase.

[704EVER]

So, if I'm understanding this correctly. It's Ok with NCRS/Bloomington Judges to validate and certify a restamped date correct motor, ONLY if the car originally came with that particular HP motor? I also get the ZL1 comparisons, but again, a car is only original once and don't the non-original ZL1's pay the price for that? I'm just trying to understand the difference. Is there a one set of rules for Corvettes and different set for other cars?

[66 L78 ragtop]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pete, the car will not be boxed even if the owner admits its a restamp. A restoration engine is a polite way to say restamp. The judging is based on "appearance" Bloomington/NCRS promotes restoration/preservation. They do not condone counterfeiting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very informative to say the least and I know this is probably a redundant question for the NCRS/Bloomington guys. But how can they not condone counterfeiting, yet accept restamps? A restamp is a restamp, no more, no less. In other circles of collector cars the stamp pad is 1 of the "Holy Grails", you either have it or you don't. What am I missing here?

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a very fine line between a restamp and counterfeiting. That line is crossed when an owner passes the re-stamp off as original and the unsuspecting buyer purchases a car that he didn't bargain for. ie the buyer purchases a clone as opposed to a real deal car.

A car's original motor is usually important as it declares a car's pedigree...In this case and in the case of yenko's etc, the original motor is not necessary to declare a cars pedigree. The pedigree is established by the car's VIN.

[704EVER]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pete, the car will not be boxed even if the owner admits its a restamp. A restoration engine is a polite way to say restamp. The judging is based on "appearance" Bloomington/NCRS promotes restoration/preservation. They do not condone counterfeiting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very informative to say the least and I know this is probably a redundant question for the NCRS/Bloomington guys. But how can they not condone counterfeiting, yet accept restamps? A restamp is a restamp, no more, no less. In other circles of collector cars the stamp pad is 1 of the "Holy Grails", you either have it or you don't. What am I missing here?

[/ QUOTE ] I am with you on the point of the motor being the holy grail, I personally will not buy a car with a restamped motor, thats just my preference. However Tom makes a great point in that there are many great cars/race cars etc. that have had their motors replaced and are restored to factory spec and rightfully so. The problem lies that there is nothing on a Bloomington Gold award or an NCRS Top Flight award that separates a real motor from a restamp and that is what needs to be addressed in my humble opinion. Like Chris said earlier the top collectors know the difference and pay up for it but thanks in large part to the media/auction hype BS and not taking the time to educate themselves a buyer does not have all the information to make an informed purchase.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for that reply, that absolutely answers a lot of questions I've had since reading this thread. I'm not that informed on what's acceptible in the Corvette community but this is certainly enlightening. I guess doing due dilligence takes on a whole new meaning regarding Corvettes.

[69 L88]

[ QUOTE ]
So, if I'm understanding this correctly. It's Ok with NCRS/Bloomington Judges to validate and certify a restamped date correct motor, ONLY if the car originally came with that particular HP motor? I also get the ZL1 comparisons, but again, a car is only original once and don't the non-original ZL1's pay the price for that? I'm just trying to understand the difference. Is there a one set of rules for Corvettes and different set for other cars?

[/ QUOTE ]
No i don't think so, no difference , Their is more to any and all cars than just the engine alone, that is 1/5 of the sum of the entire puzzle of the car,
And yes a ZL1 Survivor with it's original engine is worth a higher premium ,or any car like it , AS FAR AS THE TWO ZL1 Corvette go I'm not sure if they have their original engines or not, the yellow coupe M22, or the M40 orange conv. / any body know ?? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[704EVER]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pete, the car will not be boxed even if the owner admits its a restamp. A restoration engine is a polite way to say restamp. The judging is based on "appearance" Bloomington/NCRS promotes restoration/preservation. They do not condone counterfeiting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very informative to say the least and I know this is probably a redundant question for the NCRS/Bloomington guys. But how can they not condone counterfeiting, yet accept restamps? A restamp is a restamp, no more, no less. In other circles of collector cars the stamp pad is 1 of the "Holy Grails", you either have it or you don't. What am I missing here?

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a very fine line between a restamp and counterfeiting. That line is crossed when an owner passes the re-stamp off as original and the unsuspecting buyer purchases a car that he didn't bargain for. ie the buyer purchases a clone as opposed to a real deal car.

A car's original motor is usually important as it declares a car's pedigree...In this case and in the case of yenko's etc, the original motor is not necessary to declare a cars pedigree. The pedigree is established by the car's VIN.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess the hard part I have accepting here, is the fact that I personnaly believe a restamp is counterfeiting a car to a certain degree in the first place, be it 1/5 or 1/2 of a cars composure. If the original motor is long gone, why go through the trouble and expense of recreating what once was? The only way I can see this practice as being accepted by the community, is that the NCRS/Bloomington guys put an award on these cars and then they become accepted as the real deal. As I'm seeing this, unless you happen to be an insider and know the real truth about a particular car, you're pretty much on your own. That's a sad state of affairs and practice to uphold in my opinion. I guess it's common practice but I never realized it. Thanks for all the information guys.

[SBR]

[ QUOTE ]
So, if I'm understanding this correctly. It's Ok with NCRS/Bloomington Judges to validate and certify a restamped date correct motor, ONLY if the car originally came with that particular HP motor? I also get the ZL1 comparisons, but again, a car is only original once and don't the non-original ZL1's pay the price for that? I'm just trying to understand the difference. Is there a one set of rules for Corvettes and different set for other cars?

[/ QUOTE ] You are correct on your first point however I do not believe there are two sets of rules regarding Corvettes. I am not sure how restoration motors are judged with different makes but I can tell you that as far as Corvettes are concerned a no questioned original motored car will always bring more money, sometimes lots more than a restamp. I am not a fan of restamps because as you said things tend to get clouded up when cars change hand, that's why I am for spelling out all the facts regarding a particular car not mudding things up with vague wording such as #s matching etc. The more information thats available the better things will become. I am sure that this is wishful thinking on my part because when money is involved it makes people do things they don't want to do. Quote from Wall Street.
BTW where's the guy who started this whole discussion?

[SBR]

After rereading this thread I just wanted to add that I must say that Terry has been totally forthcoming regarding his L88. He invited all the top guys in the hobby to inspect the car before restoration and was a gracious host. The car is stunning and whoever ends up with it will have a great car in the best color combo JMHO. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[PeteLeathersac]

If a 'restoration engine' is a polite way of saying restamp, aside from being accepted at judging, it seems the reality is it's really no different than a 'numbers matching' engine but more refined and actually a perfect forgery in all respects other than being admitted as such?.

What seems to suck w/ terms like these is you need to be part of the in-crowd to share in known history of specific cars to remove these kind of clouds (that have intentionally been put in place) to learn/know the truth?.

Restamps are restamps no matter what they're termed (factory correct in appearance or not) and no matter what many like to say, how can the values of some genuine cars not be be lost/watered down when these above practices are acceptable?.

What sucks too is regardless of how other GM models are currently restored/judged, it seems much of the Corvette world's judging direction and restoration techniques eventually filters down to other GM models and other makes later too..

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
~ Pete

[MosportGreen66]

In today's market numbers matching means nothing or less than what it indicates, the numbers match. A restoration motor can be a numbers matching motor if it is restamped. With the restamps today being as close to original as the original stamps themselves, there is a fine line between an original motor and a good restamp.

[PeteLeathersac]

Yes, numbers matching certainly means nothing of substance..
Just sad how the more the fine line between original and restamps is clouded and accepted by judging groups, the more diluted the values of the real cars become.. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Sorry for hijacking the thread..
Nothing above was directed towards the cars of this thread or any cars specifically but more in trying to understand and clarify the terms discussed also how and why they're accepted..

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif
~ Pete

--------------------
I like real cars best...the REAL real ones!

[69 L88]

[ QUOTE ]
After rereading this thread I just wanted to add that I must say that Terry has been totally forthcoming regarding his L88. He invited all the top guys in the hobby to inspect the car before restoration and was a gracious host. The car is stunning and whoever ends up with it will have a great car in the best color combo JMHO. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, It's a STUNNING car no doubt about it , Also the green survivor L88 coupe bid to 425k at Mecum on Friday good number

[ChrisS]

I believe the red L88 is scheduled to be at NCRS/Delafield next month for flight judging.

[SBR]

That's great to know, I will have to take a ride up and see it. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif