Is this a rebody?

[azcamaros]

Okay, I may be abusing my new found picture posting ability but I thought these may spark some conversation. These are photos of a project my body-guy Ricky has recently started. This car is a 67 Camaro, just a standard 327, PG Camaro. When it came in it was a rusted out mess that should have been scrapped, but the owner said fix it. As you can see, it is getting new floors, frame rails, doors, fenders, roof, tail, hood and deck-lid. In addition the front subframe was rusted out too and will be replaced. Oddly enough the cowl, dash A-pillars were still good and the car still retains its original VIN and trim tag. So is this a re-body?

http://i658.photobucket.com/albums/uu304/azgreeny/Yenko%20uploads/tn_IMG_2106.jpg

http://i658.photobucket.com/albums/uu304/azgreeny/Yenko%20uploads/tn_IMG_2105.jpg

http://i658.photobucket.com/albums/uu304/azgreeny/Yenko%20uploads/tn_IMG_2104.jpg

http://i658.photobucket.com/albums/uu304/azgreeny/Yenko%20uploads/tn_IMG_2103.jpg

http://i658.photobucket.com/albums/uu304/azgreeny/Yenko%20uploads/tn_IMG_2102.jpg

[CamarosRus]

Interested to know how much Ricky charges per hour ???

I just had some "minor" misc patch panel work done on my 69 Camaro, and know how fast hour upon hour becomes weeks upon weeks. (Was not weeks in my case, just a figure of speech)

I cant begin to guess, how many hours this project will have into ALL the metal work. I would think the "bottom line" will be staggering.

Curious how well/easy the one piece floor and one piece truck goes.......????? as we repaired misc small areas and used up some time with all the cutting and prep.

Regards,

[southernfriedcj]

Legally I would guess the car is not a rebody. I would consider it a rebody though. You might as well weld the firewall onto a Dynacor body.
That beind said, I would rather have a rebodied LS6 Chevelle or Hemi Cuda with all original drivetrain than a "real" car with non original drivetrain.

[BARN FIND]

[ QUOTE ]
Interested to know how much Ricky charges per hour ???

I just had some "minor" misc patch panel work done on my 69 Camaro, and know how fast hour upon hour becomes weeks upon weeks. (Was not weeks in my case, just a figure of speech)

I cant begin to guess, how many hours this project will have into ALL the metal work. I would think the "bottom line" will be staggering.

Curious how well/easy the one piece floor and one piece truck goes.......????? as we repaired misc small areas and used up some time with all the cutting and prep.

Regards,

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a guy in Morristown, TN that regularly does floor, trunk and inner/outer rockers on 67-69 Camaros for $1500-2000. Turn around is about two weeks. I can personally tell you that 2nd Gen Camaros take longer and cost more!

[TDW]

Nope, not a rebody. The part with the factory VIN is still there, so it is a "body restoration".

[Charley Lillard]

Not a rebody in my mind.

[firstgenaddict]

It may be crazy work... but it's not a rebody! IMHO

[PeteLeathersac]

Not a rebody and actually a great example of how much work can be involved while keeping the core and being of an original car intact w/ all tags and Vins locations remaining unaltered in any way..

And each their own but aside from agreeing that this car is not a rebody, please count me as having the complete opposite views to southernfried's ideas noted above..

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif
~ Pete

[BARRY]

HI it takes a/// real expert welder// to do all that work.. can you picture that car in a collision at 30 miles a hour

[njsteve]

That is not a rebody. What he is doing would be considered the correct way to restore a very rusty car within the parameters of the law.

[al8apex]

NO!

[67BelAir427]

Not a rebody, and I share Pete's "opposite view".

Show me photographs of the work performed during a restoration like this, and let me decide whether I wish to buy the car or not.

Have you ever heard of someone showing photographs of the rebody process to a prospective purchaser? "This is a photo of me removing the VIN tag from the original car and attaching it to another car".

[ChevyThunder]

I think if anyone was asked , " I can fix this car or I can just weld the cowl onto a Dynacorn body " I would think everyone would overwhelmingly prefer the original repaired. They may be somewhat bare on this car but the original bones are the original bones ...

[Jeff H]

Not a rebody in IMO. The original firewall is there which is the most important part. It may seem like a rebody due to all the other parts being replaced, but the true "core" of the original car is still there. Now if the original firewall stampings were cut out and moved to another shell, I would say that is a rebody.

[LT12NV]

According to whats been decided in the resto community, i would NOT consider it a rebody as the VIN and hidden vins appaear untouched..

[169indy]

ReBody-NO
A Joan Rivers extreme make-over YES

That takes MAD skills!

[StealthBird]

So, is this a rebody or just a extreme restoration?

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9G_bDgoIhpKnAQAsrijzbkF/SIG=125i4ieh6/EXP=1243313064/**http%3A//www.lemondeavance.com/Uploads/Jackson1.jpg

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[RamAirDave]

We did one similar back in '07. Pretty much everything replaced aside from the cowl/firewall/a pillars and most other of the main structure.

It started as a pretty complete car, was just beat up and rusty. It was a "car" that was restored IMO, replacing what was needed. It wasn't just a set of tags/#s moved over to a different body, which is what many of the "rebodies" are.

[owners2]

Would you throw out the restorers name & phone # . I have exactly a trunk , rear body ,quarters & inner fenderwell job for him...... Thanks alot Jeff [ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Interested to know how much Ricky charges per hour ???

I just had some "minor" misc patch panel work done on my 69 Camaro, and know how fast hour upon hour becomes weeks upon weeks. (Was not weeks in my case, just a figure of speech)

I cant begin to guess, how many hours this project will have into ALL the metal work. I would think the "bottom line" will be staggering.

Curious how well/easy the one piece floor and one piece truck goes.......????? as we repaired misc small areas and used up some time with all the cutting and prep.

Regards,

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a guy in Morristown, TN that regularly does floor, trunk and inner/outer rockers on 67-69 Camaros for $1500-2000. Turn around is about two weeks. I can personally tell you that 2nd Gen Camaros take longer and cost more!

[/ QUOTE ]

[southernfriedcj]

[ QUOTE ]
Not a rebody and actually a great example of how much work can be involved while keeping the core and being of an original car intact w/ all tags and Vins locations remaining unaltered in any way..

And each their own but aside from agreeing that this car is not a rebody, please count me as having the complete opposite views to southernfried's ideas noted above..

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif
~ Pete

[/ QUOTE ]

Pete, if I was offering to give you 2 piles of parts at no charge, on the condition that you would use the parts to build one car, which would you rather have (an let's say that the contents of the piles were full documented and posted on this website so everyone knew what the finished car was made up of)?

Pile "A": a firewall/cowl with tags & numbers intact from a '69 ZL1.

Pile "B": the tags, entire engine w/ all accessories, entire transmission w/ all accessories, drive shaft and entire rearend from a '69 ZL1.

I would rather have pile "B". My rational is that I would have a nice rebodied Camaro with all the "important" ZL1 parts.
If I chose pile "A" I would have a Camaro with a ZL1 firewall.

It's just my opinion and I know I am in the minority (I would guess I could be a minority of one).

To me once the original drivetrain is gone a car might as well be a clone. JMHO, which is not shared by the market apparently.

[PeteLeathersac]

Jim...

To be clear, the two choices of your original posting are completely different than your A/B scenarios above as your first posting included a "real" car and in the second posting, both are rebody cars..

(...I would rather have a rebodied LS6 Chevelle or Hemi Cuda with all original drivetrain than a "real" car with non original drivetrain. ...)

Of your first posting, I'd love a real LS6 or Hemi Cuda w/ non original drivetrain but have absolutely no wanting to have rebody of any kind around whether the original drivetrain was in it or not..

If I had the hypothetical but genuine real car, I'd hope to complete it as close to casting and date correct as possible but it would not include 'added' stampings regardless of how correct they may appear and without concern for any judging groups that allow extra points for such a thing..

Of your second scenario, I'd choose neither one as again I have no desire to own much less build either one being I consider both A & B as Rebody cars..

Whether others agree or not, I consider a genuine and unaltered car as one that's never had a Tag or Vin location disturbed and a 'Firewalled' car is a Rebody...regardless of original 'Vinned' parts being present or not..
If there's a need at resto or in the life of the car where the re/re of a Tag or intrusion of a Vin location is necessary, full disclosure of what's transpired should always be provided to any serious purchaser...without asking!.

PS - In the A/B choices, if there's another choice added where I can end up w/ the ZL1 parts but your condition of building a car is removed, I'm your man!.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif
~ Pete

[Salvatore]

Whats the difference if it is a Dynacorn body or sheetmetal from the WalMart? Its a kit car IMO. May not be a rebody but.......?? Whats worth more, a 1000 pt. resto with repop sheetmetal or a 1000 pt. resto with all original sheetmetal?

[JoeG]

If not considered a rebody, than I think an Extreme Make Over catagory might fit the bill.....Sometimes having parts of the original car in the finished project just makes your day........but that's just me...... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif undertaking what ever the call...

[Kim_Howie]

If you move the Vin # & trim tag to another car it's a rebody. Pretty dam simple. Duh!

[PeteLeathersac]

[ QUOTE ]
If you move the Vin # & trim tag to another car it's a rebody. Pretty dam simple. Duh!

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep but some others seem to have a totally opposite view...like those who leave the tags completely and absolutely alone (which of course obviously necessitates moving the body instead)?.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
~ Pete

[The Dude]

If it was me, I would rebody a car in that condition. Whats more original, a car like the example with every piece of metal, except the firewall, replaced with Chinese metal OR a taking the tags and putting them on a GM ORIGINAL body?

Id rather have the body that GM welded together than one that Hillbilly Jim welded back together with a million miles of welding rod.

[LS6 RAT]

I believe the original posters question, is this a rebody? I would answer this as being pretty damn close! A collectible vehicle with that much extensive structural damage wouldn't have much appeal or value in my opinion.

[JoeG]

How 'bout ... rebody*......

[njsteve]

As I said before, the originally proposed project would not be a rebody under the Federal motor vehicle VIN statutes.

That means the guy doing it and the guy ownng it are not at risk of being arrested/prosecuted, and/or having the car seized as contraband in the way a VIN tag swap would most certainly be.

Otherwise this "rebody" argument will end up being more like the "survivor" term argument - everybody has their own opinion on an esoteric discussion topic with no true answer.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif Some people just don't seem to get it: if you take the VIN tag off of one body and put it on another body, IT IS A FELONY. It doesn't matter what your reason was, (restoration as compared to auto theft) - it still gets covered under the Federal chop-shop statutes. There is no restoration exemption.

[iluv69s]

Just for arguments sake, I'd like to mention a 70 or 71 Cuda that I remember helping my cousin work on in his small body shop back in the 80's....It was his own car.He had this original 318 car that had a CUDA hood but was really nice. It was stolen and when he got it back from the police the next week it had been stripped bare and was left on a train track and hit by a train...The rear of the car was wasted and the roof and floor was buckled..and the whole car was basically a bare shell...but this was his Dad's car originally and he was going to fix it. Sure enough, he cut the car to basically the same condition as this Camaro...with only the very front bird cage and cowl/dash and door jambs....he bought"another whole car"..as the parts were not even available back then. And I guess he did not remove the numbers from the original car...but he did use another car and fixed "his" car..or did he piece in the numbers from his car into another car???

My point is, if this Camaro was fixed using another car would it be a rebody??....I understand how the law is written, but I think any judge would understand if a person bought both cars to save one...the law should be based on bad intention..or fraud...If you save all of the original car that can be saved..even if it is just a small portion....you did not re-body the car...(of course it must have the part with the VIN) in my opinion....

[camaro41701]

I usually just step in and read on this forum.But,this topic seems to come up a lot on different forums.So I have a question on this.If I jig my car up so everything can be replaced,jig the hidden #'s,serial #,and cowl tag,then cut around each 2-3 inches and replace everything else what would be the difference?Numbers have not been moved and still attached to some of the original metal.I know this extreme.But not much different than shown.

[Jim Ferron]

Of course this is a rebody...

[firstgenaddict]

[ QUOTE ]

My point is, if this Camaro was fixed using another car would it be a rebody??....I understand how the law is written, but I think any judge would understand if a person bought both cars to save one...the law should be based on bad intention..or fraud...If you save all of the original car that can be saved..even if it is just a small portion....you did not re-body the car...(of course it must have the part with the VIN) in my opinion....

[/ QUOTE ]

No I wouldn't consider this a rebody, personally I would rather have one done this way then done with all repro metal.

[njsteve]

The law is written and interpretted by prosecutors and judges very strictly. Whether it is fair in application or not is unfortunately, irrelevent.

If people think there should be an exception for restoration purposes, you need to start contacting your local congresspersons and ask them to draft an exception.

Just because you don't think the law should apply doesn't mean it won't be applied. I imagine there are a whole lot of people in prison who followed that principle.

For example, the law of Bank Robbery is pretty straightforward = robbing a federally insured bank. I remember a case where the badguy actually tried to use that type of defense in a bank robbery case. He didn't think the law applied to him. It went something like this: "I wasn't robbing a bank, I was taking money from people and it wasn't their money, therefore you must find me innocent and set me free."

It was a 15 minute jury deliberation (including lunch) GUILTY. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[kwhizz]

[ QUOTE ]
The law is written and interpretted by prosecutors and judges very strictly. Whether it is fair in application or not is unfortunately, irrelevent.

If people think there should be an exception for restoration purposes, you need to start contacting your local congresspersons and ask them to draft an exception.

Just because you don't think the law should apply doesn't mean it won't be applied. I imagine there are a whole lot of people in prison who followed that principle.

For example, the law of Bank Robbery is pretty straightforward = robbing a federally insured bank. I remember a case where the badguy actually tried to use that type of defense in a bank robbery case. He didn't think the law applied to him. It went something like this: "I wasn't robbing a bank, I was taking money from people and it wasn't their money, therefore you must find me innocent and set me free."

It was a 15 minute jury deliberation (including lunch) GUILTY. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]


The Jurors are obviously more "Intelligent" on the East coast http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif........unlike the first O.J. trial http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif....


http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[x Baldwin Motion]

[ QUOTE ]
Of course this is a rebody...

[/ QUOTE ]

http://i658.photobucket.com/albums/uu304/azgreeny/Yenko%20uploads/tn_IMG_2106.jpg

Lets see what you are starting with, it looks like a firewall with numbers. So, all you need to do is attach a body. Not a rebody? There is NO CAR IN THIS PICTURE!!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

Just pointing out the irony of the law and what some consider not a rebody... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif JMHO

[The Dude]

73-79 Ford pickups have the VIN tag riveted to the door. So If I remove the door am I committing a felony? Or if I change the door, which happens often, I am committing the same? If I put the door on a different truck is this now a rebody?

[njsteve]

[ QUOTE ]
73-79 Ford pickups have the VIN tag riveted to the door. So If I remove the door am I committing a felony? Or if I change the door, which happens often, I am committing the same? If I put the door on a different truck is this now a rebody?

[/ QUOTE ]

Lets see a photo of what you're referring to. Are you sure that's not the body tag instead of the 16 digit VIN tag visible in the windshield frame of post-1968 vehicles?

[SuperNovaSS]

71-up Broncos have the VIN on the glovebox door. Talk about easy to rebody! Blazers and GM pickups 68-72 have the VIN on the driver's door. Many Broncos and Blazers/Pickups have state issued VINs because of this.

Jason

[67 GTO]

[ QUOTE ]
Lets see a photo of what you're referring to. Are you sure that's not the body tag instead of the 16 digit VIN tag visible in the windshield frame of post-1968 vehicles?

[/ QUOTE ]
The windshield VIN location applied to cars, not trucks. An example? 76 GMC is on the door jamb near the striker. IMO, Ford's placement clearly wasn't very well thought out (bordering on semi-retarded!) but the door is definitely where they chose to rivet the VIN tag.

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
73-79 Ford pickups have the VIN tag riveted to the door. So If I remove the door am I committing a felony? Or if I change the door, which happens often, I am committing the same? If I put the door on a different truck is this now a rebody?

[/ QUOTE ]

Lets see a photo of what you're referring to. Are you sure that's not the body tag instead of the 16 digit VIN tag visible in the windshield frame of post-1968 vehicles?

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/file12/F150tag.jpg

[x Baldwin Motion]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Lets see a photo of what you're referring to. Are you sure that's not the body tag instead of the 16 digit VIN tag visible in the windshield frame of post-1968 vehicles?

[/ QUOTE ]
The windshield VIN location applied to cars, not trucks. An example? 76 GMC is on the door jamb near the striker. IMO, Ford's placement clearly wasn't very well thought out (bordering on semi-retarded!) but the door is definitely where they chose to rivet the VIN tag.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gifIf you install an entire donor body on to a firewall, it is not a rebody. If you swap a glove box door, it may be a felony. Is that the difference between removing the VIN or removing the car from the VIN?
I certainly hope these laws were written in California!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

[JoeG]

I guess car collections in the future will be just rows of firewalls with vin numbers.... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[njsteve]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess car collections in the future will be just rows of firewalls with vin numbers.... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Reminds me of that old joke:

New comedian arrives in heaven after getting hit by a bus.

He hears all the old time, famous dead comedians there, just randomly saying numbers and then he hears thunderous laughter and applause after the numbers.

So, he asks the guy next to him, What's up with the numbers?

The guy responds: Well there's only a finite number of jokes in the universe, 257 to be exact. Everybody here knows them all. So, to speed things up, all you do is say the number instead of telling the joke.

The new guy says, well let me try, and yells out 198! Nothing happens. He then tries 27! -Nothing but crickets chirping, not a sound. Finally he says 113! The crowd is silent.

He turns to the guy next to him and asks: What's wrong?

The guy answers back: It must be your delivery. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[galveston]

I'm somewhat new to this re-body subject so what I don't understand is how did the cowl section with the important items survive this horrific rust event that enveloped the entire car including the sub-frame?
Can some experts out there solve this puzzle?

[RamAirDave]

I can't speak for the car that originated this discussion as there are no earlier pics.

But, yes... it's possible for a car to get mostly all new metal without those parts being that bad off.

This one got more than maybe was necessary, but it needed a lot. He took it on as a challenge, and did a hell of a job considering it was about 4 months worth of nights/weekends from the start to final blocking. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

Not a perfect car, but a pretty nice car. Sold right at about a year after work started on it.

http://s217.photobucket.com/albums/cc112/TheMuscleCarGuys/1969%20Z28%20RS%20Yellow/Restoration/

http://s217.photobucket.com/albums/cc112/TheMuscleCarGuys/1969%20Z28%20RS%20Yellow/