Wrecked 1970 TA on ebay [Archive] - The Supercar Registry

njsteve

06-23-2009, 12:13 AM

Welcome to the site! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

It would take well over 100K to do that car properly. And then you'd have a $50K car with 100K into it. Sadly it's nothing but a parts car now, and only the shaker parts and drivetrain are the only salvageable parts. If it was a RA4 it would be worth restoring.

That car is worth about $7500 and that is just for the drivetrain/shaker setup. I really doubt it has the original carb still. Without that carb, deduct another $1500.

NOS 1/4 panel...$5000 for a pair
1970-72 Front fenders...$4000 for a used pair (NOS don't exist because the GM replacements used a different internal bulkhead design)
NOS tail panel (no-one makes a repro)...$2000
1970-only hood...$1500
NOS fender flares...$1500 set (no=one makes a decent repro)
NOS dash pad...$2000 (or Just Dashes redo, same price)
4-speed Radiator...$1000
Engine rebuild...$7,000 if the block is salvageable (imagine the rust in there!)
Bodywork by the hour....$50,000++++

and it goes on forever....

Heck, even the shifter knob goes for $300: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NOS-SHIFT...A1%7C240%3A1318 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NOS-SHIFT-SHIFTER-KNOB-70-71-72-73-74-75-76-77-TRANS-AM_W0QQitemZ300321804294QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors_ Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item45ec931006&_t rksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=65%3A10%7C39%3A1%7C2 40%3A1318)

I love how the seller says: "subframe is probably OK"
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

Yeah, probably OK to use as a base for my retirement home rocking chair. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

njsteve

06-23-2009, 12:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
After following this thread on the resto of a far nicer CA Trans-Am, only someone really handy with tools & money should take it on. Very little NOS, very expensive.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat...=0&fpart=73 (http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=Othermuscle&Number=107225 &page=0&fpart=73)

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the plug! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I'm already close to the century mark. What the heck was I thinking! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

resto4u

06-23-2009, 02:06 AM

The only way to do that car, would be to use reproduction and rustfree used sheetmetal and do all the work yourself. Even then i think you would still be upside down. But keep it for a few years, then maybe sell. It is just one of those cars that should really be saved, but not for profit by any means of that term. Roger

al8apex

06-23-2009, 02:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I bet all those parts are going to go into a "rust free" body, along with the tags.

[/ QUOTE ]
I bet you are right

that thing is toast ...

"This is a NO RESERVE AUCTION AND I WILL NOT SHARE THE RESERVE WITH ANYONE!!!!!!"

njsteve

06-23-2009, 03:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]

"This is a NO RESERVE AUCTION AND I WILL NOT SHARE THE RESERVE WITH ANYONE!!!!!!"

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we need to start a new thread consisting of the most memorable ebay sellers' quotes!

I believe this auction has a few choice contenders.
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif

SuperNovaSS

06-23-2009, 03:57 AM

$2500 a quarter? $2000 a fender? Really? Why would an engine rebuild be so much? Even with a block that needs 8 sleeves it should be cheaper. I whould worry about head corrosion more than block corrosion. I'm not saying it would be cheap, but those prices seem a bit on the outrageous side.

Jason

nova7579

06-23-2009, 04:20 AM

At the Trans Am Nationals last year a used rust free original front fender for this car was $1800.

Brian

njsteve

06-23-2009, 04:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
$2500 a quarter? $2000 a fender? Really? Why would an engine rebuild be so much? Even with a block that needs 8 sleeves it should be cheaper. I whould worry about head corrosion more than block corrosion. I'm not saying it would be cheap, but those prices seem a bit on the outrageous side.

Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

1) It's a Pontiac, not a Chevrolet. Engine parts cost a ton more than a small block or big block Chevy.

2) If you want the correct parts for a 70-72 Firebird you will pay dearly for them. Nothing interchanges with the same era Camaros despite the fact that most venders falsely describe them as fitting both models. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif
I've seem major allegedly reputable venders selling 70-73 Camaro and Firebird rear quarters with the same part number and 70-81 Camaro and Firebird door skins with the same part number even though the two cars have completely different body lines.

3) I have been lucky with my project. The only NOS body parts it needed were the driver's door skin, the lower front spoiler and the tail light panel. I lucked into an NOS door skin on ebay that the guy misdescribed as a later door skin. I found out when I had him email me back the door handle opening measurements. I think I picked it up for $300...and it was local, too! It was an absolute steal because the early style "long door handle" door skins never show up for sale since they were only offered as a service part from 1970 to 1972. The same thing happened with the front spoiler and the rear fiberglas tail light panel - misdescribed and bought reasonably cheaply!

4) Yeah, you could throw on a couple of 73 to 81 fenders and hood on the car and 95% of the people out there won't know the difference. You could also buy some repro quarters for $150 too, and repro doorskins that have the wrong later model door handle openings. You could bolt up a later model radiator support that has those easily spotted 73-81 front fender bracket indents instead of the unobtainable flat top 1970-72 support (another $2000+ piece) - no one will really notice.

You could cut a lot of corners with the bad repro stuff out there and maybe do the car for a whole bunch less but it won't be correct.

It's the same thing with First Gen Camaros, and even Mopars. You can restore a Copo to look presentable to 95% of the population but it won't be correct. That is the difference between the $100,000 Copo (with the Ford "CAUTION FAN" sticker on the shroud) and the $400,000 Copo (without the aforementioned sticker). Or the $125,000 Hemicuda (with the brand new Mopar Performance crate motor) and the $500,000 Hemicuda (with it's born-with block). It's all in the process, the parts, and the execution.

A correct restoration means different things to different people. I prefer to do my cars to a certain level of insanity and try not to deviate from that self-imposed, financially ludacris, standard. On my T/A I am trying to refurbish and reinstall as many of the original components that were on this exact car back in 1972 as I can. (which is why I am just about broke now http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif)

SuperNovaSS

06-23-2009, 05:22 AM

I understand your point Steve. What parts on this car are different from a standard Firebird or Formula? Couldn't a guy find a dry 70 Firebird and use many of the parts off of it? Are Trans-Am parts that specific? I know the fenders have the cut outs but couldn't they be grafted from the original fenders? Is the core support different between a Trans-Am and standard Firebird? What about the quarters? Dash? It seems like a guy could find a nice original 70 Firebird and have most of the parts he needed since the Trans-Am specific stuff is there. Unfortunately, because of this Matt may be right. It could be a rebody waiting to happen. It just seems to me that door skins are not necessary if you can find clean doors, etc.

Jason

njsteve

06-23-2009, 05:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I understand your point Steve. What parts on this car are different from a standard Firebird or Formula? Couldn't a guy find a dry 70 Firebird and use many of the parts off of it? Are Trans-Am parts that specific? I know the fenders have the cut outs but couldn't they be grafted from the original fenders? Is the core support different between a Trans-Am and standard Firebird? What about the quarters? Dash? It seems like a guy could find a nice original 70 Firebird and have most of the parts he needed since the Trans-Am specific stuff is there. Unfortunately, because of this Matt may be right. It could be a rebody waiting to happen. It just seems to me that door skins are not necessary if you can find clean doors, etc.

Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, yes a lot of parts are interchangable with a regular 70-72 Firebird but it's really hard to find a rust free example as a donor car. For example, the flat top radiator supports rusted from the battery being bolted to them and an overall poor design. The doors were unique so you have to find a 70-72 car with rust free doors which are really rare. The early second gen Firebirds and Camaros had a serious rust problem with the lower rear frame rails and it's really hard to find a car that does not have that problem, too. The dash pads are the same up to about 1975 so you have a larger hunting area there but they all cracked and warped, and it's really hard to find a nice unmolested one with the radio hole intact. These pads were one gigantic piece of vinyl that encompassed the entire front dash area from the windshield to the knee bolster area. Unfortunately the area where the radio goes was just another piece of unrepairable plastic and vinyl that everyone hacked out with a saw to install that high fidelity Kraco AM/FM/CB stereo back then.

SuperNovaSS

06-23-2009, 05:47 AM

Hmmmm, maybe I should start parting them out out here.

Jason

akcamaro

06-23-2009, 09:08 AM

If you end up buying this car, I have a very solid running 71 6cyl Bird, a perfect 72 T/A front clip, and a nice 71 black dash. And I would KILL, to get half what NJSteve is quoteing for these parts. But I am in Alaska.

Aperently I need to list this stuff on ebay, I didn't know I was sitting on a gold mine. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
71 bird,
http://s95.photobucket.com/albums/l144/upconcerts/71%20firebird/
72 T/A front clip (the red one),
http://s95.photobucket.com/albums/l144/upconcerts/trans%20am%20parts/

njsteve

06-23-2009, 02:49 PM

AK, that's some really neat stuff. I guess the deepfreeze there keeps things preserved pretty well. I dont think I've ever seen a 6 cyl Firebird before. And yes, the fenders and radiator support on that car worth some $$$. I would not part that car out, though. I also can't imagine the shipping costs of sending big parts south.

As for the parts prices, go to the forums on Performanceyears.com and check the Firebird parts wanted and for sale section. Right now there's an NOS quarter for $1800, with crating and shipping thats more than $2000 right there.

olredalert

06-23-2009, 05:03 PM

-----I went to an estate auction near me several years ago on a farm. There were four 63/67 Vettes advertised in the flyer. When I got there it was plain to see that none of the cars were buildable in any sense of the word. I left soon after as I had no interest in "parts cars". I heard later thru the grapevine that the cheapest one went for $6000ish. It took me awhile but I eventually figured out that, more than likely, they were all bought for the tags and titles. I humbly suggest that this may be happening here. Somebody out there has a T/A with bad numbers and wants only the serial tag. Unfortunate!!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif.......Bill S

StealthBird

06-23-2009, 07:26 PM

Steve knows his stuff. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

Pontiac really tried to breakout the Firebird from the Camaro early on. The 67-68 models shared many of the same parts between them, the 69 Camaro and Firebird only shared door panels and trunk lids, and the 70-up Firebird and Camaro were very different from each other. One of the problems in restoring a Firebird is that the Camaro restoration vendors decided about 15 years ago that they could market to Firebird owners by simply changing their description(s) to say "Fits Camaro/Firebird". Over the years, as more and more Firebirds were restored, owners simply went with what was cheap and convenient, what was in the catalog, and Firebird restorations became inundated with reproduction Camaro parts. And now, all these years later, some of those cars are getting re-restored, and due to aging and weathering, it's tough to know what's original and what's an older reproduction Camaro part.

As Steve stated, you can make nearly any 70-up part fit your 70 Trans Am, but for a good resto, the afficiandos will know which parts are from incorrect years, which parts are resto parts, and which parts are Camaro parts. I learn more everyday about the subtle differences between the Camaro and the Firebird. The 1969's are sort of a nightmare to restore, because they a one-year only body and interior.

njsteve

06-23-2009, 11:00 PM

The Firebird people have been begging, screaming, pleading for years for someone to reproduce the 70-73 Firebird steel tail panel (which includes the rear valance as one big piece).

http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr24/nk15268b/1056_1.jpg

The ridiculous response you get from the aftermarket is this:

"Well, we make the one for the 74 to 81 cars and it doesn't sell too well, so were not going to do the 70-73 panel."

That is the stupidest reasoning I have ever heard. The 70-73 cars are the ones that people are restoring. They are the cars that are worth the most and are restored far more frequently than the later model cars but these guys just dont get it.

It's like saying you wont make 69 Camaro quarters because the 1992 quarters you make dont sell so well. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

Here's the one they make for the 74 and up:

http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr24/nk15268b/tail.jpg

AutoInsane

06-24-2009, 03:27 AM

I like this line:

"guaranteed to be maybe 1 of 10 known that are this original"

Talk abount an uncertain statement!!

x Baldwin Motion

06-24-2009, 04:34 AM

After Steve's http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif rant, 27 bidders are retracting their bids! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

Thanks for that info http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

njsteve

06-24-2009, 04:57 AM

Oh yeah, that was my ulterior motive: to get everyone else to drop out so I can get it cheap! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

x Baldwin Motion

06-24-2009, 05:10 AM

Steve, I am amazed at the amount of work and attention to detail you have put in your car. You have also been honest about the cost.

I can not see this car being restored at all, it just does not make any sense. No glass, no floors, no sheet metal??
Someone is bidding on the scoop, drive train and tags.

njsteve

06-25-2009, 12:28 AM

I didn't think it was possible, but this white one makes the blue one look semi-restorable!

Here's another delusional seller who thinks this is an easy restoration of a super rare car.

I love his statement: "WE ALL NO WHAT THESES CARS ARE WORTH SO PLEASE NO LOW BALLERS" http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

BARN FIND

06-25-2009, 01:15 AM

Steve, he listed the carb #, is it the correct carb?

Fast67VelleN2O

06-25-2009, 01:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Steve, he listed the carb #, is it the correct carb?

[/ QUOTE ]

7040273 is 1970 Pontiac Ram Air s/t carburetor

69cmaroluver

06-25-2009, 01:43 AM

Hey guys, seller stated in his last notes the carb number is 7040273 and rearend is COZ. Also says he has PHS documents in hand but doesn't know if there's a code on the sheet for transmission type. Does anyone know if a code exist on the PHS info that breaks down trans type, 20 vs. 21? Also, is 7040273 the correct carb?

1969z280

06-25-2009, 02:25 AM

Steve:

Could you post a couple of pictures of the 1970 flat top radiator support and fender construction. Or point towards them. With all of this talk I've started to look at my 1970 T/A with a little more concern. Thanks, Ed

njsteve

06-25-2009, 06:00 AM

Sorry, I forgot to include the link to that trashed white 70 T/A. Here it is:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Pontiac-T...A1%7C240%3A1318 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Pontiac-Trans-Am-RAM-AIR-III-1970-TRANS-AM-RAM-AIR-III-4-SPD-MATCHING-S-REAL-DEAL_W0QQitemZ160344195810QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Ca rs_Trucks?hash=item25554242e2&_trksid=p4506.c0.m24 5&_trkparms=65%3A3%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318)

Here is a photo of a 1970 to 1972 flat top radiator support. (The four white spots are pieces of masking tape to protect the paint during adjustment):

http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr24/nk15268b/radsuppt70-72.jpg

Here is a photo of the 73 and up support. Note how the 73 and up T/As and Formulas have the large steel fender to radiator support braces required for new 5mph crash worthiness standards that started in 1973. This required a new radiator support that had two large deep channels in the top of the rad support to hold the two steel bars. Also the tops of the inner fender flanges have a elevated flange with two bolt holes to mount the steel bars too, as noted by the red arrows. This was also the replacement style radiator support sold by GM after 1973.

http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr24/nk15268b/73fender.jpg

And note how the drivers side fender on the trashy white 70 T/A that is listed as "95% all original" has the 73 and up elevated mounting points making it a later replacement fender and not the original as he says it is:

http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr24/nk15268b/70tafender.jpg

Compare the trashy white fender to this original 1970 to 1972 fender. It is flat area with no bolt holes and a flat top radiator support.

http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr24/nk15268b/70-72fender.jpg

njsteve

06-25-2009, 06:03 AM

COZ is the 3.73 rear end ratio. 7040273 is the correct carb# for a 70 Ram Air four speed.

Verne_Frantz

06-25-2009, 06:38 AM

Steve,
I still don't understand your insane devotion to this TA project when you have that Hemi Charger at home.
I'm sure you'll come up with a cleaver explanation...... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

(BTW, my last plating load turned out better than the others)

StealthBird

06-25-2009, 07:22 AM

Well, I think I know why Steve has an insane devotion. One of the coolest cars ever made. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

http://www.pontiacpower.net/pictures/70ta2.jpg

Great information on the fenders and radiator top. There are so many subtle details involved in one of these restorations, so many one-year only parts, you really need to find someone (or even hire someone) that knows a particular make or model inside and out before plunking down a lot of money. I too have seen lots of "95% low mileage originals" go up on E-Bay, and many items I see, within the posted photos, that there are several parts that are not original. Not always the seller's fault though. Sometimes someone aquires a car, and because everything appears "old", and the car has had a dozen previous owners, sometimes the current seller assumes everything is original. Remember, we're talking 30+ years of possible accidents, fender benders, repaints, and many other things that may have happened back in the 70's, back when these cars were daily drivers, back before these cars were worth so much money. Through the many owners, sometimes stories get skewed, misunderstood, or embellished.

Again, great info from Steve. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

akcamaro

06-25-2009, 07:32 AM

Steve thanks for the tutorial. I just went out and checked my 72 T/A front clip, and I have the flat radiator support, but the 73 and up fenders.

StealthBird

06-25-2009, 08:33 AM

As a sidenote, I believe it was a devastating UAW strike in 1972 that resulted in a very short run (only 1,286 Trans Ams produced), and over 2100 Camaros and Firebirds were left in various stages of production on the assembly lines. When the strike ended, these 1972 cars would not meet the new 1973 Federal standards, so the 1972 models that were in process were all scrapped. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

njsteve

06-25-2009, 03:55 PM

In the words of the Late Great Ed McMahon: YOU ARE CORRECT, SIR! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

UAW picked Norwood, the only plant that made the F-bodies in 1972 as their strike target knowing it would really affect GM. The line was struck in late March, 1972 and all the cars still on the line ended up being crushed because they would not meet the 1973 emissions (EGR valve) requirements and the 5 mph bumper requirements. There are some famous old assembly line photos of the cars hanging in and out of the primer dip tank, just sitting there like meat on a hook, for months. Because of the strike, which didn't end til September of the next model year, GM came very close to killing the Firebird and Camaro model altogether.

njsteve

06-25-2009, 04:02 PM

Here's a couple of those famous photos:

http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr24/nk15268b/Norwood72.jpg

njsteve

06-25-2009, 04:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Steve,
I still don't understand your insane devotion to this TA project when you have that Hemi Charger at home.
I'm sure you'll come up with a cleaver explanation...... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif Cuz it's been raining since for six straight weeks and I can't drive the Charger? That's all I can think of at the moment, Verne.

There is a cruise night in Flemington this Saturday 6/27 and the weather is allegedly going to be nice...and it's Mopar night, too. So we'll see if the Punxatawny Charger sees its shadow and wants to leave the garage, finally http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Verne_Frantz

06-25-2009, 06:11 PM

Take pictures http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif I'll be in Carlisle....

1969z280

06-25-2009, 09:42 PM

Steve:

Thank you very much for posting the pictures. It's a great tutorial. Ed http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

njsteve

06-26-2009, 01:15 AM

Here's some more quality photos of that "95% original" white T/A...

Just a little surface rust here. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif I guess the wind took the spoiler corner off:

http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr24/nk15268b/1970TRANSAM036.jpg

Needs a little tail panel work...actually it needs a tail panel - there's nothing remaining:

http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr24/nk15268b/70TA011.jpg

Here's the "95% original" aftermarket Holley spreadbore carb:

http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr24/nk15268b/1970TRANSAM049.jpg

And the pies de resistance, the cowl tag that has nothing to rivet to:

http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr24/nk15268b/70TA016.jpg

On the plus side it does appear to have the $1500 to $2000 set of JW coded 15" Rally wheels with the 14" centers - a unique wheel that was used from 1970 to 1972 on T/A's and Formulas.

http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr24/nk15268b/70trashed.jpg

markjohnson

06-26-2009, 01:23 AM

Man, that quarter panel is something else. I agree that this thing is being bought for the title, tags, and a few select parts. It's a shame, but that thing is just too far gone. I've always had a thing for those early '70's 'Birds, especially the Trans Ams. Bitchin' cars!

njsteve

06-26-2009, 01:38 AM

It doesn't even have a title! The ad says sold on bill of sale only.

I think the only useable parts are the shaker setup (it has the 1970-only, thin rear lip shaker top - with broken edges), the 1970-only, single snorkle air cleaner, and the JW wheels. That engine has to be toast. At a minimum it needs eight sleeves due to rust, if it hasn't been blown up (a common occurence with Pontiac 4 speed cars - they didn't like to rev!) which is usually the reason these things were parked and abandoned. The M21 trans and 12 bolt rear end are possibly salvageable. So I see about $5000 in parts there.

69cmaroluver

06-26-2009, 03:51 AM

The description says the state it's licensed in (Alabama) doesn't have title on vehicles from 74 back. Also says title can be obtained with notarized bill of sale and tag reciept. I bought my 69 RS in Georgia and had the same situation with getting a title. My license commisioner stated there are 3 or 4 states that handle vehicle titles that way for vehicles after a certain age.

njsteve

06-26-2009, 04:24 AM

Yup, NJ is the same way - if the state you bought it from uses a bill of sale only for old cars, they accept it. They then issue you a NJ title (of course after you pay a bunch of typical NJ extra fees...)

If you want to see an awesome blue 1971 455HO, M22, A/C equipped Trans Am barn find, check this out...and he bought it for $2000. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/drool.gif

http://forums.performanceyears.com/forums/showthread.php?t=592887

69cmaroluver

06-26-2009, 04:38 AM

The car is located about 2.5 hours from me. The owner agreed to let me take a look at the car today. Car is rough but truly not as rough as I thought it would me. The rear body panel and rails are very nice and will pass with ease. Deck lid and panel beneath rear glass will need replacing, the owner has a deck lid off a mid 75 TA that he agreed to give to the auction winner. Deck lid is very nice and looks the same but I'm not sure if it will fit due to year??? Trunk floor has rust in a 4" x 6" area. In my opinion this rust can be cut out and patched without a complete trunk floor. I had a tough time looking at the entire floor from the inside since all the interior was still in the car. Looking from beneath the car, there's rust in all 4 floor pans. Again not real bad but in my opinion the easiest fix would be to replace the entire floor panel from toe kick to area beneath rear seat. Section under rear seat looked very good and will clean up nicely. Cowl has surface rust across top but nothing rusted through, it should clean up. Drivers door shell is solid with exception of the outer skin. Based on what Steve said finding a skin in near impossible. The passengers door shell is wasted and will need replacing. After looking at Steve's fender pics I can say both fenders are correct and will need replacing. Subframe will need replacing, its bent in the front crossmember area. The owner had a subframe from a 73 Firebird with disc brakes rolling. It also has the front urethane nose attached with both left and right brackets. He agreed to sell the rolling subframe to the buyer for $500. The nose will need some repair because of spider webbing in an area but it's really a pretty nice nose. Next I went to the engine, the oil stick had some rust on the bottom 1/8" with no other signs of liquid's. Evidently the original owner pulled the oil plug at some point and time, I found it in the drivers seat. The engine isn't stuck, I did see it turn for what it's worth. Radiator is bowed in the center but didn't damage the fan. I've had radiators rebuilt years ago if the tanks are good. Both tanks appear to be good, not sure but possible to have this radiator recored? Transmission and rearend both looked okay, no visible damages to either that I could see. All 4 wheels are correct JW and what I'm guessing was the original spare in the trunk with jack assembly. In summary, it's not as bad as I thought it would be. My brother in law is a superb body man and he's agreed to help me restore the car. He was ith me today and looked it over with me. There was a old tarp lying around the car, it evidently rotted off years ago. I just can't believe the guy actually let the car set and didn't attempt to keep it covered or inside. I really don't know if I'm ready to give up the time, money and endless complaining by my wife and sister in law. A restoration like this could certainly cause divorces.

njsteve

06-26-2009, 05:07 AM

Goood for you for checking it out in person!

1) The deck lids are interchangeable from 70 to 81.

2) The 73 nose is very different internally. That was the first year of the 5 mph impact requirements and there are at least 40 pounds of extra brackets and mounting hardware in there. The beak is also about an inch longer than the 70-72 urethane nose. They look similar but are not correct and may not bolt up unless you use the 73 and up radiator support which as we know would look incorrect.

Here's the 70-72 nose. Note there are only 2 steel "L" brackets that hold the nose to the frame. Also note that the two grills have a honeycomb pattern in 72 and a small mesh pattern in 70 and a still different pattern in 71. 73 was entirely different with a large egg shape mesh pattern and was shallower in depth.

http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr24/nk15268b/bumper11.jpg

Here's the 73 nose with a bunch more hunks of metal.

http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr24/nk15268b/BU5MZWBGkKGrHgoH-DMEjlLluysEBKP0ipu.jpg

3) If the left and right tanks are ok the radiator can be recored. That 4 speed radiator will not have any tranny cooler fittings. That is the telltale that it's a four speed radiator.

4) I guarantee that there will be extensive rust under the left and right lower corners of the windshield. That is the bad spot on the 2nd gen Firebirds and Camaros. If you look into the lower corners of the windshield next to the A-pillar you will probably see a bunch of scale - a real bad sign.

5) They do sell nice, accurate full floors for these cars. You'd probably be better off replacing the entire floor rather than welding piecemeal if there is rust in all 4 seating positions.

6) Trunk floor rust is common. They do also make good full trunk floors. I'd buy the full floor and use what you need and stay away from the smaller 1/2 floors, they're not as accurate.

69cmaroluver

06-26-2009, 05:22 AM

Pics of the 70-72 Nose in white look exactly like the set up he has. The nose is attached by the 2, somewhat, 90 degree brackets and the grills look very similiar. The left side grill is broken and right side is good. Thanks for the pics.

Dave Rifkin

06-26-2009, 05:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Here's some more quality photos of that "95% original" white T/A...

Just a little surface rust here. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif I guess the wind took the spoiler corner off:

http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr24/nk15268b/1970TRANSAM036.jpg

Needs a little tail panel work...actually it needs a tail panel - there's nothing remaining:

http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr24/nk15268b/70TA011.jpg

Here's the "95% original" aftermarket Holley spreadbore carb:

http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr24/nk15268b/1970TRANSAM049.jpg

And the pies de resistance, the cowl tag that has nothing to rivet to:

http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr24/nk15268b/70TA016.jpg

On the plus side it does appear to have the $1500 to $2000 set of JW coded 15" Rally wheels with the 14" centers - a unique wheel that was used from 1970 to 1972 on T/A's and Formulas.

http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr24/nk15268b/70trashed.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing a little Safest Rust Remover won't fix.

njsteve

06-26-2009, 05:28 AM

I think if you dunked it in that stuff the only thing that would be left would be the back window. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

njsteve

06-26-2009, 05:43 AM

Here's your rogues gallery of Firebird faces:

The 70/71 fine mesh grill (they do reproduce these nicely in black grate for the T/A and argent grate for all others):

http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr24/nk15268b/grill71.jpg

The 72-only honeycomb grill (not reproduced):

http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr24/nk15268b/grill72.jpg

The shallow-depth 73 egg crate grill (not reproduced):

http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr24/nk15268b/BU5MZWBGkKGrHgoH-DMEjlLluysEBKP0ipu.jpg

njsteve

06-26-2009, 05:56 AM

One more thing.

Is it me or does it look like that roof is punched up in the front? Compare the two A-pillar roof heights and the shapes of the driver's side window openings:

http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr24/nk15268b/70smash.jpg

http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr24/nk15268b/d60c_3.jpg

njsteve

06-26-2009, 06:14 AM

Winning bid was $5975 on the blue car. Reserve not met. That is pretty much the total price of the useable parts on the car.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1970-Tran...17%7C240%3A1318 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1970-Trans-AM-ORIGINAL-1-OWNER-POP-PLATE-WRECK-in-1974_W0QQitemZ170346392832QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Ca rs_Trucks?hash=item27a96fad00&_trksid=p4506.c0.m24 5&_trkparms=65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C72%3A317%7C240%3A13 18)

69cmaroluver

06-26-2009, 06:37 AM

If I ever get and restore another 70-72 I'll never sell again, never!! I sold a guy from N.C. that collects the 70 Trans AM racing series cars my frame off 70. The 70 TA was all he liked completing his collection. Two months later I sold my 72 455/automatic car to Tony @ Northern Illinois Autobrokers. Both white cars and both frame off restored. I've had to learn the hard way!!

KevinW

06-26-2009, 03:44 PM

Interesting thread! NJSteve always get to the heart of these restos http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif That egg crate portion of the grill does not look too difficult to repop, but not with the big front section. I think it would be possible to mold the egg crate as a flat peice (need a broken donor part!) and glue it on to the front section and a little smoothing and paint and I think it would work. If people are desperate for these things, you go to strange depths to get it right http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

69cmaroluver

06-26-2009, 07:02 PM

I think I've got a broken grill if you'd like to try that. Need to put my hands on it.

njsteve

06-27-2009, 02:50 PM

OMG...another 70 T/A fixer-upper. Actually has the right fenders but 73 nose grills. Great quote here: "The car does have some rust in the front fenders, doors, rear quarter panels, tail panel, and in the rear sections of the floor pans." For that quote I nominate him for Ebay's Honest Seller of the Year Award. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/70-PONTIA...17%7C240%3A1318 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/70-PONTIAC-TRANS-AM-RAM-AIR-III-4SPD-PROJECT-NO-RESERVE_W0QQitemZ330340520168QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS _Cars_Trucks?hash=item4ce9d450e8&_trksid=p4506.c0. m245&_trkparms=65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C72%3A317%7C240%3 A1318)