Engine block stampings

[Bob Martin]

This the motor out of my '69 Z/28. Has anyone seen a motor stamped and casted on the same day? I know the motor has not been re-stamped. Thanks

Bob

[Bob Martin]

Here is the second picture.

[PeteLeathersac]

As per CRG...

"...Blocks have been found that have been cast and assembled in the same day, but that is not normative. There are also blocks that have been cast and then assembled months later; again, that is not normative..."

This page...
http://www.camaros.org/drivetrain.shtml

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif
~ Pete

[TimG]

I believe that during heavy production times, this wasn't unusual. I've owned several small block cars that have had engines cast and built the same day. They ran 24 hour shifts and it could have been cast early one day and built later the next day.
I've never seen a big block with the cast and build this close, but I'm sure it could have happened.

[Mr.Nickey Nova]

On my 70 L34 Nova the engine was casted and built one day apart.

[Lynn]

They were cranking engines out at a pretty good clip in Sept. 69. I sold a Sept 69 DZ block a few years ago cast and assembled either the same day or one day apart. Can't remember. Should have taken some pics.

[bergy]

OK guys - think about this! The Z-28 blocks were cast at the Saginaw Michigan gray iron plant. If a block was cast first thing in the morning, it took about 35 minutes to "shake out", 3-4 hours hanging in the cooling court, 1 hour to get through cleaning (these times are all assuming the lines never stopped - that would be very unusual). Then it had to wait in the shipping area before being loaded into a truck and shipped to the Flint Machigan motor plant. Now the block had to get unloaded, through receiving, through staging, all the way through block machining - piled on a pallet and taken over to the assembly line. Finally, it's got to be assembled and date stamped. All of this is nearly (never say never) impossible to do on a DZ block in one day. Two days - yeah, but same day - not likely. It did, however, happen occassionally at Tonawanda because the motor plant was attached to the metal casting plant - so castings were carried one pallet at a time into the motor plant.

[Jonesy]

[ QUOTE ]
OK guys - think about this! The Z-28 blocks were cast at the Saginaw Michigan gray iron plant. If a block was cast first thing in the morning, it took about 35 minutes to "shake out", 3-4 hours hanging in the cooling court, 1 hour to get through cleaning (these times are all assuming the lines never stopped - that would be very unusual). Then it had to wait in the shipping area before being loaded into a truck and shipped to the Flint Machigan motor plant. Now the block had to get unloaded, through receiving, through staging, all the way through block machining - piled on a pallet and taken over to the assembly line. Finally, it's got to be assembled and date stamped. All of this is nearly (never say never) impossible to do on a DZ block in one day. Two days - yeah, but same day - not likely. It did, however, happen occassionally at Tonawanda because the motor plant was attached to the metal casting plant - so castings were carried one pallet at a time into the motor plant.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are REAl examples out there of both Tonawanda and Flint engines that were cast and built in the same day. Mot a high occurance, but it did happen.

[Bob Martin]

Thanks to everyone for there input. It makes me feel better. I knew it was not a re-stamp but never saw one with the same day before. Thanks again Bob

[bergy]

FYI - You can look at the casting time on the block. If it's cast late on first shift or any time on second shift, it would definitely be impossible for a Saginaw casting to be assembled the same day. Look for an early first shift casting time.

[1969z280]

Bob:

If someone restamped the block, why wouldn't they have made it a couple days later than the casting date? My opinion would be that it's probably the real deal. Good luck and enjoy it, Ed

[Jonesy]

Furthermore, its not a restamp, so there is your example of being cast and built the same day. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[bergy]

I don't believe that anyone has said that it's a restamp - I'm just saying that the owner could look at the time code on the block and demonstrate how it makes sense that it's not a restamp. Of course, now that god has spoken - there's no need for a technical discussion.

[Jonesy]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gifhttp://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[JohnZ]

We (NCRS) have documented a number of Flint small-blocks that were cast and assembled on the same day, and MANY that were assembled the day after they were cast. The Saginaw Foundry sent 55,000 iron castings to Flint V-8 every day, and those dedicated GM trucks ran 24/7. Machining at Flint V-8 ran on three shifts, and both assembly lines ran on two shifts (170 per hour on Line 1, 130 per hour on Line 2).

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[bergy]

I agree Bob - I said that it was difficult ( as reinforced by the small number of instances that it happened) but not impossible. There were two Saginaw Foundries producing iron castings (one gray and the other ductile). Saginaw gray only ran two shifts and V8 blocks only ran at a rate of about 2500 molds per shift. The technical point is that you can tell by the casting clock if it was even possible for a specific case to make it to Flint in time for machining on the same day. For example, there's no way that an 11:00pm casting could get through processing and down to Flint for complete machining in one hour! I worked at Tonawanda, but traveled to our sister plants in St. Catherines and Saginaw quite a lot.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

[ QUOTE ]
We (NCRS) have documented a number of Flint small-blocks that were cast and assembled on the same day, and MANY that were assembled the day after they were cast. The Saginaw Foundry sent 55,000 iron castings to Flint V-8 every day, and those dedicated GM trucks ran 24/7. Machining at Flint V-8 ran on three shifts, and both assembly lines ran on two shifts (170 per hour on Line 1, 130 per hour on Line 2).

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

This is 'spot-on' per the date frames we see on the Deuces. I thought it was almost impossible for this tight of a date, but multiple Deuces have these tight dates. Now, we can tell rehits when the dates are not tight enough.

[bergy]

Castings were not put into foundry inventory on a FIFO basis - there will always be legitimate blocks that have a large spread between cast date and machine date. Blocks that got set aside for allowable cosmetic welding as well as inventoried blocks sat around for quite a while. There will never, however, be second shift Saginaw castings that were assembled on the same day at Flint.

[69 Post Sedan]

How many blocks were cast the day before, then, machined/stamped the next day while accidently stamping yesterdays date. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

[PeteLeathersac]

[ QUOTE ]
How many blocks were cast the day before, then, machined/stamped the next day while accidently stamping yesterdays date. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

That statement is very probable and could have more truth to it than we'll ever know!.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif
~ Pete

[bergy]

If the motor plants messed up that bad, there should be documented Tonawanda assemblies with the block cast date after the engine build date! Has anyone ever heard of that? I know that at the foundry the pattern shop inspected the patterns and changed the cast date tags every night. Before the first shift started production, the mold machine operator and supervisor had to check/verify the date tag. We were pretty faithful about checking date tags and clock shift screws because it was the only way that off chemistry cases could be segregated. If the inspection department didn't see the correct date/time on castings in the finishing department, they would quarintine the entire questionable batch. We weren't complete idiots - remember, we made supercars that are still around today! I'm not sure about the motor plant checking mechanism - but I know that everyone was sensitive to date codes and if a mistake was noted - we had to quaranteen and, if necessary, restamp. I guess the bottom line is, that we can assume that Chevrolet employees screwed up, but when you have to start coming up with unusual explanations - potentiel buyers get scared.

[69 Post Sedan]

It was just another possible scenario. But we must remember, we are all human and mistakes are/were made.

I recently saw a '69 Camaro 396 block in which the 3rd number was a 5 and it should have been a 6. It was confirmed with a email from Kurt Sonen as he new of a block that had the same problem and both VIN's were very close.

Kurt http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[bergy]

I agree - good discussion.

[69 Post Sedan]

"new" http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif Sorry...I did not catch that in time. Proofreading is something I need to do more often. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[turbojet427]

I have a late 1968 dated DZ short block with very low miles. The motor has the correct assembley stampings on the pad, but no VIN # anywhere on the block. Not even the slightest hint of a VIN # on the pad or by the oil filter. The short block has never been decked or even disassembled. Is it common to have a car motor without a VIN #? Where else could this short block came from?

[Kurt S]

It was the job of the setup man to change all the gang stamps at the start of the shift.
I worked in several component plants and changing the date was just part of the routine and it always happened...

[turbojet427]

The block has the casting date, suffix code, and assembly date, but no VIN #. Would a crate motor than still have a DZ suffix code?

[x77-69z28]

IT WOULD NOT. it would be a "CE" block

[turbojet427]

Thats what I thought. I have a CE L-78 motor. I'll have to take some paint off and get a closer look by the oil filter and look for traces of a VIN #.

[bergy]

Sometimes the VIN# is very, very hard to make out. Make sure that you remove all of the paint and take a picture of the stamp area with a good camera. Crop the picture and blow it up as big as possible. I had to do this with my Pace Car #272 block. I could just make out partial impressions of enough of the charactors to verify the vin.

[JRSully]

A CE L78 block won't have a specific vehicle VIN stamp on it, just an assembly date and or serial #

[Jonesy]

[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes the VIN# is very, very hard to make out. Make sure that you remove all of the paint and take a picture of the stamp area with a good camera. Crop the picture and blow it up as big as possible. I had to do this with my Pace Car #272 block. I could just make out partial impressions of enough of the charactors to verify the vin.

[/ QUOTE ]

So are you saying that CE blocks have the VIN stamped on them?? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

[PeteLeathersac]

Not specific to any engine applications in particular but depending on what GM had on hand the over the counter and/or warranty replacement engines were sometimes supplied in CE or suffixed applications..
Consider the genuine Suffixed but non Vin stamped Corvette blocks/engines that are floating around as an example..

On CE's w/ Vin stamps, not that they often/ever did it but wasn't the General's policy instructions to the dealer installing a warranty unit to stamp the Vin into the replacement unit?.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif
~ Pete

[ssl78]

The way I understand it if wasnt a complete motor the block recieved a ce, if you bought a complete motor it normally had the normal engine build date and suffix. Example is the 1970 Harrell Camaro that just sold had I believe a CRV code, since it started off as a small block car it recieved a complete motor.

[turbojet427]

I can not see a VIN # anywhere on my DZ short block. The short block has very little useage and has never been disassembled. I was just curious if it could of been a crate motor or was it in a car and no VIN # stamped. MY CE 1970 L78 motor has no VIN # and I believe CE motors never did.

[DarrenX33]

My Z has the VIN on the oil filter flange but is barely noticable. Took a while to find it as well.

[CamarosRus]

My 70 Z engine was assembled in Flint and deck stamped V0729CTB.

I bought this car in 78' from Original owner

What is very unusual (I would think) is that the VIN 01N5xxxxx is NOT stamped in the normal bellhousing flange area.

I found the VIN # stamped in rough cast material roughly between the left side soft plugs....

Has anybody ever seen something similar on a FLINT small block.

Does anybody challange my assertion as being phoney, restamped or otherwise forged ?????