yenko camaro

[P.J.]

68 Yenko Camaro (unconverted)on Cars online for sale
http://www.carsonline-ads.com/colsite/co...postingID=40539 (http://www.carsonline-ads.com/colsite/col?use=UC3_ViewPosting&cmd=showPosting&postingID= 40539)
What makes this 68 Camro a COPO??Could any person at that time order a 68 COPO 9737 from GM, or were they only made for Yenko?? Was the 9737 stamped on the vin# Tag??
PJ
PJ

[mockingbird812]

PJ - your link is for a 68 SS convertible. To date only two of the reported 6 non-converted Yenko Camaros have been unearthed.

[427.060]

The link you posted is for a 68 Convertible.
James

[GrumpysToy]

here is the link to the camaro in question

http://www.carsonline-ads.com/colsite/co...postingID=40451 (http://www.carsonline-ads.com/colsite/col?use=UC3_ViewPosting&cmd=showPosting&postingID= 40451)

[mockingbird812]

This is the Billigen car. One of two known to exist. This is the way Yenko ordered them from the factory prior to transplanting in the 427 engine. (427 was not part of the COPO ordering from the factory in '68). But other hi po COPO items (special sway bars) were available in '68. I am a novice - others will chime in. Tom passed away a few years ago and his widow owns the car now. Outstanding restoration!

[x Baldwin Motion]

http://www.cars-on-line.com/40400/68chev40451-1.jpg

[Chevy454]

Did they ever have any luck with an NICB on this car?

[MosportGreen66]

[ QUOTE ]
Did they ever have any luck with an NICB on this car?

[/ QUOTE ]

Didn't Tom buy the car new?

[mockingbird812]

He sure did Dan. I remember the Kenny Ross Chev. dealership campy t.v. commercials. I think he used his grandma in them. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Don_Lightfoot]

Sure I'm not alone when saying I have seen this car in person several times in past years and it is outstanding. If my memory serves me right, I believe Tom bought it new and then reacquired it many years later.

[GenOne]

I would love to own that car ... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

[AutoInsane]

Should the value of this car be so high? I know it is a well restored low mile car with a really great story but... it is not a 427 Yenko. While I am sure everyone here would love to see it and own it at a fair price would someone pay up to own this novelty?? Should it not command a premium over a 68 396 SS but be worth far less than a 68 Yenko?

[bkhpah]

Not his gradmother, it was his Aunt Penny..If you got the deal at Kenny you get a jar of Aunt Penny's jelly.. This car was sold new at Kenny Ross. It is believed dealer traded by Yenko. The original owner never knew it was a Yenko COPO 9737 Camaro. I refound this car at a local Camaro meet near the Pittsburgh Airport,and Frank Arone tried to buy it. The deal for what ever reason did not get done. I remember it was painted black and had KILLER interior. For some reason the entire original interior was never reused in the restoration. Instead it had 100% repo door panels etc installed. I have emails from Tom asking SCW to restore this car and thanking me for my help to break that the car was a 9737 COPO....BKH

[PeteLeathersac]

Here's the thread when Tom found his old 3737 car and bought it back...
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/59134/page/0/fpart/all/vc/1

There's a couple pics of the car at the beginning of this thread...
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Number=312711

A few pics of the car are still alive in this old Dupont page too...
http://www.dupontregistry.com/autos/Search/DRauSearchDetails.aspx?itemid=498103


Below is Tom's pic of his 9737 car when new sitting outside the Kenny Ross dealership...

http://www.yenko.net/attachments/63067-3.JPG


http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif
~ Pete

--------------------
I like real cars best...the REAL real ones!

[Chevy454]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Did they ever have any luck with an NICB on this car?

[/ QUOTE ]

Didn't Tom buy the car new?

[/ QUOTE ]
I knew Tom bought it new off the lot @ Kenny Ross, but I was wondering if they were able to confirm the dealer trade theory or not...it would make sense that it worked like that, but the '69 COPO secret was leaked at some point as well, so there's always that possibility I suppose. Anyway, the NICB should show the original destination dealer...

[Smokey]

Someone should invite her to the Muscle Car and Corvette National show to help it get some great feelers out on it.

[Atuckman]

supposedly the car is off the market. Rumor is it traded

[AutoInsane]

Did the original engine ever get reunited with the car? Is the L88 still in it??

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Please remove the air shocks.

[MultiMopars]

[ QUOTE ]
Should the value of this car be so high? I know it is a well restored low mile car with a really great story but... it is not a 427 Yenko. While I am sure everyone here would love to see it and own it at a fair price would someone pay up to own this novelty?? Should it not command a premium over a 68 396 SS but be worth far less than a 68 Yenko?

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly what I was thinking when I read the sales ad description.

Yenko sold a lot of family cars too. When WE think of a Yenko Camaro, WE think of either an early transplanted engine car OR a later COPO that had the factory installed 427. Either way, a 427 car.

[bkhpah]

Maybe when "WE" think of Yenko's as 427 cars "WE" are not really a Yenko enthusiast. One of only a handful of Yenko conceived COPO Camaros is a special car, and certainly NOT a family car as you refer to it as. Any Yenko performance car has a special place in history. What a value is, seems to be for most the only thing they think about. I'll take any L/78 or 302 Yenko performance cars that nobody else doesn't want. When you show me the next 68 COPO 396 Yenko Camaro let me in on it first. IS a Mr.Norm Hemi car just another Hemi? I doubt it to most. Its the dealer name connected to the car. I imagine most MoPar collectors would rather have a Mr Norm car..BKH http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[camarojoe]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe when "WE" think of Yenko's as 427 cars "WE" are not really a Yenko enthusiast. One of only a handful of Yenko conceived COPO Camaros is a special car, and certainly NOT a family car as you refer to it as. Any Yenko performance car has a special place in history. What a value is, seems to be for most the only thing they think about. I'll take any L/78 or 302 Yenko performance cars that nobody else doesn't want. When you show me the next 68 COPO 396 Yenko Camaro let me in on it first. IS a Mr.Norm Hemi car just another Hemi? I doubt it to most. Its the dealer name connected to the car. I imagine most MoPar collectors would rather have a Mr Norm car..BKH http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
Well said! ..and I agree. Heck, I'd take ANY cool 60's Chevy originally sold through Yenko vs. one sold elsewhere...

[MultiMopars]

I think you have mis-interpeted what I was trying to say.

It is funny that you use the example of a Mr. norm's hemi car. It makes no difference WHAT dealer sold a car like that unless it has something to do with that dealer had something to do with it being something different than a car that any other dealer could have sold.

The difference with a Yenko conversion car or a Yenko COPO car is that they were the first ones to DO it or realize they could make such an order. therefore they were only done buy them. It is what the car actually WAS, not the DEALER that happened to THINK of it or do it.

Anyone that "buys into" the idea that a car is worth more because it was something that was order/sold sold by a particular DEALER that was also available from any other dealer that sold the same thing is just kidding themselves. There were dealers all over the country that sold those same cars.

Now if you were comparing it to something like a 1968 Mr. Norm's GSS (the car that set the stage for the later 1969 440 Darts) it would be a comparable example to a Yenko early conversion or later COPO that Yenko as well as a few other dealers that also ordered COPO cars it would be a like comparision.

The 1968 GSS was ONLY available from Mr. Norm's and therefore makes it something "special" with regards to the dealer it came from simply because he was the only one offering them. He had to commit to buy a minimum of 50 before Chrysler would build them.

[bkhpah]

I agree to disagree with you on this one..BKH

[MultiMopars]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree to disagree with you on this one..BKH

[/ QUOTE ]

No problem there. We all have our own options and what some people choose to asign value to is their own business with regards to how they spend THEIR money.

Your not the first and certainly will not be the last to disagree with me. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[P.J.]

My original question was Why is this Camaro a Copo??
Why is my 68 Camaro l78 m22 488 factory orderd ss not a copo
just like the one on cars on line??????My car has just about as much history and maybe a little more.
pj

[rafbody]

[ QUOTE ]
My original question was Why is this Camaro a Copo??
Why is my 68 Camaro l78 m22 488 factory orderd ss not a copo
just like the one on cars on line??????My car has just about as much history and maybe a little more.
pj

[/ QUOTE ]


Was your car ordered with the COPO 9737 options as this car was. If it was, then it is a COPO. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[bkhpah]

The '68 COPO Yenko Camaros were the first ever hi-po Camaros ordered by Yenko to use as a platform for the 427 program. Specially designed parts were used in these cars. A 140 MPH speedo, a very large for the time 1 1/16inch sway bar, As a matter of fact these were worded by GM as Yenko Sports Car Conversion 9737. Special MV code 396/375 that was emission tested with the 427 engine program in mind. Without these cars, there would most likely be no 427 COPO Camaro as we now it today. These cars used the unique "Magic Mirror" trim plates to further separate them from NORMAL 396 cars. @ 70 units were sent to Yenko, not counting prototypes. This number was chosen for the 50 units NHRA needed to classify these cars for competition. Yenko was considered the manufacturer on these cars. So why are these cars considered rare to some? I guess most users of the Yenko board think that way..BKH

[Steve Shauger]

[ QUOTE ]
The '68 COPO Yenko Camaros were the first ever hi-po Camaros ordered by Yenko to use as a platform for the 427 program. Specially designed parts were used in these cars. A 140 MPH speedo, a very large for the time 1 1/16inch sway bar, As a matter of fact these were worded by GM as Yenko Sports Car Conversion 9737. Special MV code 396/375 that was emission tested with the 427 engine program in mind. Without these cars, there would most likely be no 427 COPO Camaro as we now it today. These cars used the unique "Magic Mirror" trim plates to further separate them from NORMAL 396 cars. @ 70 units were sent to Yenko, not counting prototypes. This number was chosen for the 50 units NHRA needed to classify these cars for competition. Yenko was considered the manufacturer on these cars. So why are these cars considered rare to some? I guess most users of the Yenko board think that way..BKH

[/ QUOTE ]

Very well put Brian... There is no doubt these were/are special cars special built and configured cars based Don Yenko's request.

[Steve Shauger]

[ QUOTE ]
My original question was Why is this Camaro a Copo??
Why is my 68 Camaro l78 m22 488 factory orderd ss not a copo
just like the one on cars on line??????My car has just about as much history and maybe a little more.
pj

[/ QUOTE ]

Simple your car was ordered using the standard ordering process. The original owner selected RPO's available to any dealer and listed on price/order sheets. This is not to say it is not special, just not a Yenko/COPO.

[camarojoe]

I think it's crazy to suggest the selling dealer doesn't mean anything unless the car is an ultra-high performance model. You're telling me if you had a pair of Hemi Challengers side by side, one from Grand Spalding/Mr. Norm and one from Joe Shmoe Dodge down the street, you wouldn't pick the Mr. Norm sold car? Of course you would.

Heck, I'd take an old Chevy C10 Fleetside with a glovebox full of Yenko paper over a similar one from somewhere else... i don't know of too many folks who wouldn't.

[MultiMopars]

[ QUOTE ]
The '68 COPO Yenko Camaros were the first ever hi-po Camaros ordered by Yenko to use as a platform for the 427 program. Specially designed parts were used in these cars. A 140 MPH speedo, a very large for the time 1 1/16inch sway bar, As a matter of fact these were worded by GM as Yenko Sports Car Conversion 9737. Special MV code 396/375 that was emission tested with the 427 engine program in mind. Without these cars, there would most likely be no 427 COPO Camaro as we now it today. These cars used the unique "Magic Mirror" trim plates to further separate them from NORMAL 396 cars. @ 70 units were sent to Yenko, not counting prototypes. This number was chosen for the 50 units NHRA needed to classify these cars for competition. Yenko was considered the manufacturer on these cars. So why are these cars considered rare to some? I guess most users of the Yenko board think that way..BKH

[/ QUOTE ]



Thank you for explaining the COPO 9737 option. That in itself does prove it to be a true COP order and it obviously does set it apart with the items included in that option number. However, the car did not have the INTENDED 427 installed so it is NOT what we typically expect to find in a Yenko COPO.

So, what does the 9737 option REALLY add to the value in this particular case? I think THAT is what was really being asked here. It certainly can't add the same value as one that HAS the 427. It is simply a peculuarity in my book.

[MultiMopars]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's crazy to suggest the selling dealer doesn't mean anything unless the car is an ultra-high performance model. You're telling me if you had a pair of Hemi Challengers side by side, one from Grand Spalding/Mr. Norm and one from Joe Shmoe Dodge down the street, you wouldn't pick the Mr. Norm sold car? Of course you would.

Heck, I'd take an old Chevy C10 Fleetside with a glovebox full of Yenko paper over a similar one from somewhere else... i don't know of too many folks who wouldn't.

[/ QUOTE ]



If they were identical cars I would probably by the Mr. Norm's car simply because I was selling Dodges new from 1968-74 about 150 miles from his dealership and heard his advertisements on WLS radio constantly. Would I pay anything extra for it, NO, not one dime.

The only two things that were different in the two example cars you use is that the Mr. Norm's car would have had a "Dyno Tuned" sticker on the window and a recurved disrtibutor which consisted of different weights in the distributor and reseting the carb when it was on the dyno. Which, BTW was done to ALL of the hipo cars that they sold AND charged extra for which at that time I believe was $20.00 or under. That is the only difference between a car sold there vs. and other Dodge dealer selling a like car.

[hvychev]

I don't know.......if there were two cars next to each other and I knew one was sold at my local Chevy dealer as opposed to Joe Schmoe Chevrolet I would definitely pay a premium. It adds to the "cool" factor IMO. Like you MultiMopars, I worked in the car business for 10 years. Maybe that is why I feel that way about the selling dealers.

Heck, there is a collector on this board who has assembled one of the best muscle car collections out there and the theme of his cars is that they are all Chicago area sold. That makes his collection so much more significant because of what it took to accomplish this amazing feat.

[MultiMopars]

Yeah, everyone has specific reasons that may be dear to their hearts as the reasoning that they MIGHT pay more for a given car. It simply would not be any signifigant value adder for me.

I can see someone paying a LITTLE more if the car came from their hometown dealer. Not me now living in rust free AZ. and my old hometown dealership that I worked for being in the N.W. Illinois RUSTBELT where if it hadn't rusted into the ground it would certainly have rust issues if it had not left there early in life for a better climate.

[COPO_Anders]

"Did the original engine ever get reunited with the car? Is the L88 still in it??"

Tom told me some years ago that he had the original engine in the car. He sent me a pic of the pad-stamp also.

[Unreal]

As I recall the story, Tom installed the L88 early on, and kept the L78 in his garage...don't know why. Then when he found the car, he reunited it with the original motor.

[Steve Shauger]

I believe there are a couple of 68 Yenko's with their transplanted engine and orig delivered L78 engine as well. It is my understanding that orig L78 short block were sold via local papers. Over the years some have come up for sale and reunited.

[1969l78]

A yenko is a yenko and a copo is a copo no matter what dealer sold it.

[Jeff H]

Didn't those L78 engines have a different carb as well? I thought I remembered a discussion about the EPA certification papers for that engine code, was it MQ? Anyway, I thought it was a bigger carb than the normal L78 carb so Don could just swap it onto the 427 he was planning on installing. It's definitely a unique piece of GM history but it's always tough to guess at how much value is added. People buy specific cars for their own personal reasons and will pay extra because of it.

[P.J.]

[ QUOTE ]
The '68 COPO Yenko Camaros were the first ever hi-po Camaros ordered by Yenko to use as a platform for the 427 program. Specially designed parts were used in these cars. A 140 MPH speedo, a very large for the time 1 1/16inch sway bar, As a matter of fact these were worded by GM as Yenko Sports Car Conversion 9737. Special MV code 396/375 that was emission tested with the 427 engine program in mind. Without these cars, there would most likely be no 427 COPO Camaro as we now it today. These cars used the unique "Magic Mirror" trim plates to further separate them from NORMAL 396 cars. @ 70 units were sent to Yenko, not counting prototypes. This number was chosen for the 50 units NHRA needed to classify these cars for competition. Yenko was considered the manufacturer on these cars. So why are these cars considered rare to some? I guess most users of the Yenko board think that way..BKH

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks Brian
that explains it well.
PJ

[jerry67]

I would think a dealer trade would be very possible the dealerships were only a few miles apart and both raced vettes at cumberland airport
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c76/jerry6769/com%20pics/kennyross-1.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c76/jerry6769/com%20pics/kennyross1.jpg

[Unreal]

I was at Pitt in the late 60's and remember the Pgh Press had ads all the time for engines and wheels. (maybe wheels and tires)

[Les Quam]

Multi Mopars,
Very good analysis you made when you compared the forty eight 1968 GSS 440/375 HP Darts that Mr. Norm was able to convince Dodge/Hurst to build exclusively for Mr. Norm with the 1968 COPO Yenko Camaro's built by GM exclusively for Don Yenko.

Not so many people are aware of those rare 1968 Mopars that Mr. Norm dreamed up to compete with the big block Camaro's built by GM and modified by Don Yenko and others in 1968.

Most people are only vaguely aware Dodge built 440 Darts in 1969 to compete with GM let alone the 1968 GSS 440 cars?

I too grew up in Chicago listening to Mr. Norms ads on WLS. The only other popular rock station I can remember at the time was WCFL. Never thought as I listened to those ads that I would pay equal to what a house costs today to own one of those cars?

[bashton]

[ QUOTE ]
Multi Mopars,
Very good analysis you made when you compared the forty eight 1968 GSS 440/375 HP Darts that Mr. Norm was able to convince Dodge/Hurst to build exclusively for Mr. Norm with the 1968 COPO Yenko Camaro's built by GM exclusively for Don Yenko.

Not so many people are aware of those rare 1968 Mopars that Mr. Norm dreamed up to compete with the big block Camaro's built by GM and modified by Don Yenko and others in 1968.

Most people are only vaguely aware Dodge built 440 Darts in 1969 to compete with GM let alone the 1968 GSS 440 cars?

I too grew up in Chicago listening to Mr. Norms ads on WLS. The only other popular rock station I can remember at the time was WCFL. Never thought as I listened to those ads that I would pay equal to what a house costs today to own one of those cars?

[/ QUOTE ]

AND...you will be able to relive some of those memories at the MCACN show, as Dick Biondi will be reminiscing with Mr. Norm live, Saturday November 21st!

Bashton
MCACN Managing Member

[MultiMopars]

[ QUOTE ]
Multi Mopars,
Very good analysis you made when you compared the forty eight 1968 GSS 440/375 HP Darts that Mr. Norm was able to convince Dodge/Hurst to build exclusively for Mr. Norm with the 1968 COPO Yenko Camaro's built by GM exclusively for Don Yenko.

Not so many people are aware of those rare 1968 Mopars that Mr. Norm dreamed up to compete with the big block Camaro's built by GM and modified by Don Yenko and others in 1968.

Most people are only vaguely aware Dodge built 440 Darts in 1969 to compete with GM let alone the 1968 GSS 440 cars?

I too grew up in Chicago listening to Mr. Norms ads on WLS. The only other popular rock station I can remember at the time was WCFL. Never thought as I listened to those ads that I would pay equal to what a house costs today to own one of those cars?

[/ QUOTE ]


Yeah, I wondered after I made the comparision how many people would actually understand what the comparision was really all about.

Actually, what Norm was asking for was not a car to compete with the Yenko 427 cars but rather for something to compete with the 396/375 Novas. The Ebodies weren't produced until 1970 so back in 68 they had no pony car or no small car/big engine combo to compete with the HP smaller cars.

Your right about the 48 cars as well. Supposedly the other two of the 50 were diverted to another dealer or two.

The GSS emblems (Grand Spalding Sport) were intalled at Mr. Norm's Grand Spalding Dodge and the simply replaces the "T" of the GTS with another factory "S"

As I recall WCFL was FM and came about after the reversal of AM becoming the talk radio that FM had been previously.

I go back a little further and can remember Dick Clark in 1957 on WLS before he was fired for telling a dirty joke on air. The career move that REALLY changed his life for the better.

[black69]

all I can say, on the mr norms premium aspect, I would have to think for a while on a trade of my 440 4 brl 4spd challenger in the attachment, straight up for a 6 pack version from a no name dealer. In my case the car had a street history (original owner still in town) and it beat his buddies LS6 chevelle at local skipps hangout in chicago. Mr norm himself told him, the 4 brl was a better street racer over the 6 pack (and tried to push an automatic on him with it). never the less, some of these mopars mr norm had were ordered in cool color combos. Mine has the white v top, white side stripes, black out hood, and black interior. I beleive there was more to his dealership than just the dyno side, he was actually enabling street racers with the right stuff, and some of his cars were ordered for that purpose. my 2 cents.

[HPMIKE]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you have mis-interpeted what I was trying to say.

It is funny that you use the example of a Mr. norm's hemi car. It makes no difference WHAT dealer sold a car like that unless it has something to do with that dealer had something to do with it being something different than a car that any other dealer could have sold.

The difference with a Yenko conversion car or a Yenko COPO car is that they were the first ones to DO it or realize they could make such an order. therefore they were only done buy them. It is what the car actually WAS, not the DEALER that happened to THINK of it or do it.

Anyone that "buys into" the idea that a car is worth more because it was something that was order/sold sold by a particular DEALER that was also available from any other dealer that sold the same thing is just kidding themselves. There were dealers all over the country that sold those same cars.

Now if you were comparing it to something like a 1968 Mr. Norm's GSS (the car that set the stage for the later 1969 440 Darts) it would be a comparable example to a Yenko early conversion or later COPO that Yenko as well as a few other dealers that also ordered COPO cars it would be a like comparision.

The 1968 GSS was ONLY available from Mr. Norm's and therefore makes it something "special" with regards to the dealer it came from simply because he was the only one offering them. He had to commit to buy a minimum of 50 before Chrysler would build them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree 100%

The Mr. Norm cars are somewhat unique, but as was stated most of the cars that sold out of that dealership were little more than any other car that could have been bought from any other dealer. A little known fact is that there were "super tuners" at MANY dealerships back in the day. They would set up cars for customers all the time.

I am not trying to belittle the heritage of Mr. Norm, but it was a well known fact that Norm was a marketing guy that was cashing in on the musclecar craze at the time. Absollutely nothing wrong with that. But if he told anyone that a 4 barrel equipped car was a better car (street or strip), then he is just flat out wrong. The factory 6 packs were a HUGE upgrade over the iron intake 4V setup. In fact, until the 6 pack version of the 440 wedge was intro'd, the 440-4V really wasn't that hot, at least when compared with aluminum headed high compression BB Chevy's or Ram Air II/IV Pontiacs, Stage I Buicks, etc. The pre 6 pack 440's were actually pretty much the same motor you would find in the average Newport or Fury. One of the main reasons for this I am sure was to not outdo the legendary Hemi. Once Chrysler saw that the public just wasn't buying the amount of Hemi cars as they planned, they quickly came up with a motor in the 6 pack that would be cheaper, easier to run for the masses- and the rest is history.

MB

[black69]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think you have mis-interpeted what I was trying to say.

It is funny that you use the example of a Mr. norm's hemi car. It makes no difference WHAT dealer sold a car like that unless it has something to do with that dealer had something to do with it being something different than a car that any other dealer could have sold.

The difference with a Yenko conversion car or a Yenko COPO car is that they were the first ones to DO it or realize they could make such an order. therefore they were only done buy them. It is what the car actually WAS, not the DEALER that happened to THINK of it or do it.

Anyone that "buys into" the idea that a car is worth more because it was something that was order/sold sold by a particular DEALER that was also available from any other dealer that sold the same thing is just kidding themselves. There were dealers all over the country that sold those same cars.

Now if you were comparing it to something like a 1968 Mr. Norm's GSS (the car that set the stage for the later 1969 440 Darts) it would be a comparable example to a Yenko early conversion or later COPO that Yenko as well as a few other dealers that also ordered COPO cars it would be a like comparision.

The 1968 GSS was ONLY available from Mr. Norm's and therefore makes it something "special" with regards to the dealer it came from simply because he was the only one offering them. He had to commit to buy a minimum of 50 before Chrysler would build them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree 100%

The Mr. Norm cars are somewhat unique, but as was stated most of the cars that sold out of that dealership were little more than any other car that could have been bought from any other dealer. A little known fact is that there were "super tuners" at MANY dealerships back in the day. They would set up cars for customers all the time.

I am not trying to belittle the heritage of Mr. Norm, but it was a well known fact that Norm was a marketing guy that was cashing in on the musclecar craze at the time. Absollutely nothing wrong with that. But if he told anyone that a 4 barrel equipped car was a better car (street or strip), then he is just flat out wrong. The factory 6 packs were a HUGE upgrade over the iron intake 4V setup. In fact, until the 6 pack version of the 440 wedge was intro'd, the 440-4V really wasn't that hot, at least when compared with aluminum headed high compression BB Chevy's or Ram Air II/IV Pontiacs, Stage I Buicks, etc. The pre 6 pack 440's were actually pretty much the same motor you would find in the average Newport or Fury. One of the main reasons for this I am sure was to not outdo the legendary Hemi. Once Chrysler saw that the public just wasn't buying the amount of Hemi cars as they planned, they quickly came up with a motor in the 6 pack that would be cheaper, easier to run for the masses- and the rest is history.

MB

[/ QUOTE ]

I do see you point above, and mostly agree. One would think a 4 brl 440 was not in the league as a six pack, no doubt there. But from from weekly racing, there was an aspect of keeping the carbs tuned. My car was rejetted at mr norms, they popped in a purple cam, it had headers added, and was on the dyno often (they guy lived across the street from mr norms). To me, Mr Norm was pushing on this 19yr old kid, at engine setup in his famous GSS dart (a 440 4brl (but with auto)). This 19 yr old kid rebadged as a 340 and made his car payments and insurance payments (which were even higher than the car payment) street racing it. No doubt, as the original owner said, you had to know how to beat a hemi, and the 6 packs out there. all those cars were out there on the street, LS6s, L78s, hemis (some of them easily out of optimum tune, which is part of my point). I give a lot of credit to mr norm's guys that ordered the cars, and then the guys that helped tune them over and over, more than mr norm himself. And the fact you could outfit your car there was pretty cool. Mr norm himself, is really a marketing guy, but there was more to his dealership than himself.

[Chevy454]

How out of shape would a 6-bbl car have to be to be taken by a 4-bbl car, because from *my* vantage point (from the opposite lane!http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif) those are 2 *very* different animals! Honestly, it ain't the 4-bbl cars that keep me awake at night... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Kim_Howie]

Gary Dyer was a lot of where MR. Norm went.

[Mr70]

aaah...Super CFL.http://www.skyscrapercity.com/images/smilies/dj.gif
http://www.radiotimeline.com/am1000wcfl.htm

http://www.radiotimeline.com/wcfl-6-29-74b.jpg

[HPMIKE]

[ QUOTE ]
How out of shape would a 6-bbl car have to be to be taken by a 4-bbl car, because from *my* vantage point (from the opposite lane!http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif) those are 2 *very* different animals! Honestly, it ain't the 4-bbl cars that keep me awake at night... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

How out of shape, you ask?? Very......

MB

[black69]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How out of shape would a 6-bbl car have to be to be taken by a 4-bbl car, because from *my* vantage point (from the opposite lane!http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif) those are 2 *very* different animals! Honestly, it ain't the 4-bbl cars that keep me awake at night... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

How out of shape, you ask?? Very......

MB

[/ QUOTE ]

last I checked, I thought L88s had a 4 brl, but yet the 435hp engines had a 6 brl setup...so please tell me the logic there..(could a rejetted 4brl actually be ok?). Would my 69 camaro L78 be that much better off with the 3 dueces? Innocent question, fill me in.

[MosportGreen66]

A '66 L72 is a faster car than a '67 L71. I've always used the logic of single 4bbl to 3x2 set up.

[HPMIKE]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How out of shape would a 6-bbl car have to be to be taken by a 4-bbl car, because from *my* vantage point (from the opposite lane!http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif) those are 2 *very* different animals! Honestly, it ain't the 4-bbl cars that keep me awake at night... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

How out of shape, you ask?? Very......

MB

[/ QUOTE ]

last I checked, I thought L88s had a 4 brl, but yet the 435hp engines had a 6 brl setup...so please tell me the logic there..(could a rejetted 4brl actually be ok?). Would my 69 camaro L78 be that much better off with the 3 dueces? Innocent question, fill me in.

[/ QUOTE ]

The top level GM cars had pretty decent intakes and big Holleys. Or Quadrajets- which can be a pretty decent race carb if prepped right. The Mopar iron 4 barrel intake/AVS setup is an absolute TURD. The sixpack setup was a significant improvement over the AVS/iron 4V manifold. Forget about the factory ratings. Take a look at what NHRA rates a particular combo. No way a six pack is only 15HP better than a 4V. Just no way.

As for the GM Holley Tripower. The manifold was too low in order to fit under the Vette hood, and the plenum volume suffered. Don't forget- your comparing a big dual feed Holley and a hi rise manifold to a Tri power- pretty comparable with the edge going to the 4V. The Mopar comparison is apples to oranges.

MB

[MultiMopars]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How out of shape would a 6-bbl car have to be to be taken by a 4-bbl car, because from *my* vantage point (from the opposite lane!http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif) those are 2 *very* different animals! Honestly, it ain't the 4-bbl cars that keep me awake at night... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

How out of shape, you ask?? Very......

MB

[/ QUOTE ]

last I checked, I thought L88s had a 4 brl, but yet the 435hp engines had a 6 brl setup...so please tell me the logic there ..(could a rejetted 4brl actually be ok?). Would my 69 camaro L78 be that much better off with the 3 dueces? Innocent question, fill me in.

[/ QUOTE ]


There is a world of difference between those two engines. The L88 was rated under the tri power 427 to keep the people that wanted to buy the highest rated h.p. from buying the L88 which was not a street engine. It was a race engine with a "true" h.p. of around 560. 12.5:1 comperession, HUGH cam, BIG carb, cowl induction. Think race Hemi competitor. The engine didn't even have a fan shroud and would over heat under 45 mph.

[Les Quam]

I am not a Mr. Norms expert but I do know that the 1968 GSS 440 Darts were built by Dodge then sent to Hurst/ Campbell for the 440 install then sold exclusively by Grand Spaulding Dodge. Its my understanding Mr. Norm had to show Dodge that a 440 could fit in that Dart before they would build it by installing a few 440s in his Darts?

I see Mr. Norm in the same view as Baldwin Motion in that they were both tuners and would modify your car anyway you wanted? Grand Spaulding Dodge did it all in house and Baldwin sent the cars down to Joel is the main difference I can see?

Don Yenko with his relationship with Chevy and National network of 19 or 20 Yenko authorized dealers was in a different league it seems to me???

[motionwannabe]

I would believe they are in a different league also.Motion wasnt a dealer of new cars. They were a high performance shop as was Mr Norm. Yenko was a dealer. He sold his own cars maybe I'm wrong but from what I gather the YENKOS already had most of the work done to the as they were COPOs except for the 67-68s. Maybe I'm wrong.Could someone shed a little light on this for me? I dont mean to hi jack the thread but I've wondered this for a while http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

[MultiMopars]

Baldwin/Motion was a colaboration between dealer and independant performance shop.

Mr. Norm's was the largest Dodge dealer in the country not only selling performance cars but major State contracts for fleet vehicles. It was actually a physically tiny dealership that rented space all over the neighborhood to store cars. They did in house dyno tuning and both Mopar and aftermarket upgrades. The dealership was actually an old coverted gas station.

Yenko started by installing new crate 427s in cars the factory would not install them in until he discovered that he could order them that way through the COPO program.

Any dealership in the country COULD have done the same thing as these guys did. Mr. Norm's Grand Spalding Dodge had the advantage over all the others simply because he was located in the largest city (Chicago) of all these other dealers.

[motionwannabe]

Motion Performance also was a converted gas station at one point. Motion Performance gave a wriiten guarantee with each vehicle Tha it would run 11.5 seconds and 120mph in the 1/4 mile with an M/P driver or they would refund your money.Never had to pay back a cent. They were the fastest and had the record books to back this claim.With all due respect to all other builders, makes and models I feel BALDWIN MOTION Supercars are unparalled. Yes , the MOPARS,and fords and all other dealer conversions were awesome but none were as bold to give a guarantee as MOTION did.Also MOTION wasnt a dealership they were an independent Hi Performance shop. They housed no new cars for sale unless they bought them for themselves prepped them and sold them. But, even then were sold as a used car, Baldwin/Motion cars were sold NEW only through Baldwin Chevrolet. I think that there is quite a difference between MOTION and Mr Norms Grand Spaulding Dodge. But, Its just my opinion. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[x Baldwin Motion]

I can not comment on what Mr. Norm was pumping, but in Baldwin, we only had the finest Hooker Gas available. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q101/65z13/Motion73vetteroadster.jpg

Free traction enhancing cinder blocks with every fill-up!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

[MultiMopars]

[ QUOTE ]
I can not comment on what Mr. Norm was pumping, but in Baldwin, we only had the finest Hooker Gas available. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q101/65z13/Motion73vetteroadster.jpg

Free traction enhancing cinder blocks with every fill-up!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

GOOD ONE http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

I started a new post in the "OTHER MUSCLE" with a bio on Mr. Norm's for those of you interested.

[ANDY M]

What happened to the question about a '68 Yenko posted 6 pages ago. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
I'm thinking that this thread might have been hijacked. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif