More Restamps

[SuperNovaSS]

Look at this jerk selling parts as "not restamps" in some auctions and offering restamps in others. This seller's distributor was discussed here recently. This guy is a true Richard.

Jason

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/CHEVY-CAM...=item3ef95f7ad4 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/CHEVY-CAMAROCHEVELLE-FACTORY-DISTRIBUTOR1112000-396-402_W0QQitemZ270471756500QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors _Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item3ef95f7ad4)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1962-VETT...=item3ef9b342f3 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1962-VETTE-68z-28-3917173-finned-new-harmonic-bal-L79_W0QQitemZ270477247219QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors _Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item3ef9b342f3)



Many other examples on his past and current auctions.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

[Salvatore]

Thanks for the heads up.

[MultiMopars]

You know, I here complaining about this on Mopar sites all the time, but I thought Chevy guys should have been over this YEARS ago. Maybe this is a new generation of guys in the market that are unaware of the history of this.

I was a member of NCRS beginning in 1976. There first skinny little judging manuals had points established first for correct casting number, then correct casting date/time car built, then correct stamped characters. If you entered your car in judging competition with a "reproduuction" engine and all was "right" you were awarded ALL the points. However, if you TOLD the judges that it was not the original born in the car engine, they docked you points. Still wondering why people don't make disclosure about these things?

You guys REALLY don't think that there REALLY are as many "original" engines left in these hipo cars that were bought new to beat the snot out of as people claim do you?

Restamping engines, etc. has been going on for at LEAST 30 years for GM products and probably Fords too.

There was a company in Wisc. that used to advertise in Hemmings print (before Internet) selling engine. They had a big inventory with lots of casting date choices. They also offered pad stamping with correct font characters and rebuilding to stock or non stock specs. This was at least 15 years ago. I believe their name was Engines Unlimited. My point is, this has been going on in the open for a long time.

[RamAirDave]

[ QUOTE ]
My point is, this has been going on in the open for a long time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would say that there are very few here that are unaware that restamping has been going on for decades and how prevalent hammered parts are.

[MultiMopars]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My point is, this has been going on in the open for a long time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would say that there are very few here that are unaware that restamping has been going on for decades and how prevalent hammered parts are.

[/ QUOTE ]


I haven't been here long enough to know what the general membership is like. I am 59 years old and have been involved in the hobby for 40 years.

I have seen a lot of things evolve in those 40 years. We currently have a 2nd and the beginnings of a 3rd generation of guys in the hobby from when I got involved.

I can say that some of the younger guys have a very unrealistic idea of how things were when these old cars were new. I sometimes have to chuckle at their thoughts that these old muscle cars got some kind of special treatment when they were built. They were just another sales commodity as far as the manufacturers were concerned. However, today some seem to think that they were treated anything differently than a new station wagon.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Thanks Darryl!

[MultiMopars]

[ QUOTE ]
Look at this jerk selling parts as "not restamps" in some auctions and offering restamps in others. This seller's distributor was discussed here recently. This guy is a true Richard.

Jason

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/CHEVY-CAM...=item3ef95f7ad4 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/CHEVY-CAMAROCHEVELLE-FACTORY-DISTRIBUTOR1112000-396-402_W0QQitemZ270471756500QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors _Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item3ef95f7ad4)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1962-VETT...=item3ef9b342f3 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1962-VETTE-68z-28-3917173-finned-new-harmonic-bal-L79_W0QQitemZ270477247219QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors _Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item3ef9b342f3)



Many other examples on his past and current auctions.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

[/ QUOTE ]


I don't understand the complaint here?

The guy is disclosing what he is doing in one auction and spelling out the fact that the dist. in the other auction is REAL.

Apparently most here KNOW that this has been going on for a long time so it should be appluaded that the guy is being HONEST about what he is selling and what is is offering to do. The thing is, for the buyer that WANTS it date stamped they WILL get it done one way or another.

It seems that in this hobby anymore you are damned if you do or damned if you don't. Here is an example. I see certiques (sp) of new reproduction parts often where people point out and complain about what is different from original including the lack of factory part numbers. These same people are usually the ones crying about people restamping engines, etc. You can't have it both ways. When you call these people on it they say it all comes down to disclosure. So, in this thread subject the guy IS disclosing and here we are complaining about it. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

Do you see a pattern here with what I first posted?

People are reluctant to DISCLOSE what they have done for fear of the bashing they my take for their actions.

What is the definition of restoration? According to Webster's it is "to put or bring back into a former or original state."

I consider a correct part numbered, date code correct engine that is built to original specs and restamped as original to be a "restoration engine" for OEM judging. As does NCRS. HOWEVER, If you DISCLOSE this they penalize you. You see where I am going? Yes, I understand that there IS a differnece in value between an ORIGINAL engine car vs. what I described above. I believe that for anyone to EXPECT to have this higher value THEY need to PROVE the originality. With all others vehicles it should be assumed that over the years it is very likely that the engine is NOT original regardless of what the NUMBERS say.

[SuperNovaSS]

Darryl,


Just because something has been going on for a long time does not mean it has to be tolerated. Here is a recent thread about a distributor the guy is selling as authentic that you even commented on:

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat...true#Post425873 (http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=UBB10&Number=425873&Searc hpage=1&Main=425005&Words=1111170&topic=&Search=tr ue#Post425873)

From your comment, it sounds like you think it is not an original. The seller says it is. Looks at his other auctions and ended ones. He is selling current oil pans and implying they have been in storage for years. While its possible, it is misleading. Deception has been going on in this hobby for years also. Does that make it OK?

I know you are being the devil's advocate here and are being realistic. I understand what goes on and have seen a lot myself. That does not mean that we have to accept it.


Jason

[MultiMopars]

[ QUOTE ]
Darryl,


Just because something has been going on for a long time does not mean it has to be tolerated. Here is a recent thread about a distributor the guy is selling as authentic that you even commented on:

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat...true#Post425873 (http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=UBB10&Number=425873&Searc hpage=1&Main=425005&Words=1111170&topic=&Search=tr ue#Post425873)

From your comment, it sounds like you think it is not an original. The seller says it is. Looks at his other auctions and ended ones. He is selling current oil pans and implying they have been in storage for years. While its possible, it is misleading. Deception has been going on in this hobby for years also. Does that make it OK?

I know you are being the devil's advocate here and are being realistic. I understand what goes on and have seen a lot myself. That does not mean that we have to accept it.


Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

What individuals will tolorate is a personal choice. There are no laws that prohibit this restamping other than if someone can prove fraud regarding misrepresentation of a car with a restamped engine, which at best is VERY hard (and expensive) to prove.

That however is not REALLY the point I am trying to make here, but rather that the hobby talks out of both sides of its mouth regarding this and disclosure.

SO MANY cars have been out there for years, sold many times with restamped engines for top dollar right along with the cars with the REAL original engines. never any OPENED disclosure. Who knows what was admitted between the owners over the years. There just are NOT as many original engine hipo cars left compared to how many currently EXIST. Just as there are probably more big block mid year Corvettes out there today than GM built.

As far as what WE will accept certainly varies throughout the hobby and people have been turning their heads to what they suspect or KNOW when it comes to buying these old cars so long as it doesn't cost THEM any money for what MAY be true.

My comment on the other thread about the distributor was regarding the distributors in general as they were not really transistorized systems but rather a capacitor discharge system with an "amplifer" box. Slightly different and the forerunners to the later high energy ignition.

If the guy is selling oil pans or any other part that is a repo or not as it is being represented to be, then of course it is wrong and outright disception. But that has to be proven before we can really complain about it. We live in America where were are to be presumed innocent until proven guilty.

Yes, I often play devils advocate in these posts, someone has to. And yes, deception has been going on for years. My point is that regarding my example of restamped engines and the NCRS's stance on it smacks of being two faced on the subject. BTW, I ended my membership with NCRS because I got sick and tired of going to their events that the people spent more time sitting around talking about the memorized part numbers on their trailer queens rather than driving the cars and having fun, which was the root reason we all bought these cars in the first place. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Tommy_Mathison]

[ QUOTE ]

What individuals will tolorate is a personal choice. There are no laws that prohibit this restamping other than if someone can prove fraud regarding misrepresentation of a car with a restamped engine, which at best is VERY hard (and expensive) to prove.


[/ QUOTE ]

If the misrepresentation results in a pecuniary loss, it is illegal; in every way shape and form.

[kwhizz]

BTW, I ended my membership with NCRS because I got sick and tired of going to their events that the people spent more time sitting around talking about the memorized part numbers on their trailer queens rather than driving the cars and having fun, which was the root reason we all bought these cars in the first place.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

Ken http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/BruceRocks.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/HollyRocks.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/BruceRocks.gif

[olredalert]

-----We apparently think alike, Ken. I quit NCRS a couple of years ago for pretty much the same reason........Bill S

[Salvatore]

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, I ended my membership with NCRS because I got sick and tired of going to their events that the people spent more time sitting around talking about the memorized part numbers on their trailer queens rather than driving the cars and having fun, which was the root reason we all bought these cars in the first place.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

Ken http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/BruceRocks.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/HollyRocks.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/BruceRocks.gif

[/ QUOTE ] WOW Ken! You are!!!! the man. Drive em, and then polish them! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[PeteLeathersac]

Wasn't it MultiMopar who made the statement about why he quit NCRS and Ken was the first to agree?.
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

And Ken...please tell us about the Joe McD' Rocks note..
Yes he does rock but have you been in recent contact w/ him and how's he doing?.
Miss your input here Joe if you're reading this..hope you're doing Ok brother!.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif
~ Pete

--------------------
I like real cars best...the REAL real ones!

[MultiMopars]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

What individuals will tolorate is a personal choice. There are no laws that prohibit this restamping other than if someone can prove fraud regarding misrepresentation of a car with a restamped engine, which at best is VERY hard (and expensive) to prove.


[/ QUOTE ]

If the misrepresentation results in a pecuniary loss, it is illegal; in every way shape and form.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is basically the same thing I said in my quote above. The problem is that it is very hard to PROVE. You would have to prove (e.g. witness) of WHO did the actual restamping or some sworn statements of a previous owner that knew it did not have the stamped engine in the car when they sold it to the person that had sold it as such. There could be no unknown owners between them. The previous owner would have to physically show in court to testify to this. People are often reluctant to do this, may live in another State, etc. The other thing is that with private party sales there is often illegal title skipping so a person that did the restamping may not have had the car titled in their name which causes addtional problems in proving the liability.

[kwhizz]

And Ken...please tell us about the Joe McD' Rocks note..
Yes he does rock but have you been in recent contact w/ him and how's he doing?.
Miss your input here Joe if you're reading this..hope you're doing Ok brother!.


Pete........When I was restoring the Biscayne, Joe was a virtual Encyclopedia of info and walked me thru the project with frequent PM's.........Turned me on to parts that were very hard to find on Ebay and was (as most of the guy's here are) just a "Great" guy.......I knew he was having some health issues and was concerned.......After unanswered P.M.'s I could only "Imagine" what he was going thru and how he must feel dealing with one of lifes speed bumps.......So......In the chance that he would read some of the posts here (even though he hasn't posted since April 08)......It's just my way of showing "Respect" and Best Wishes for him...........If that makes any sense.... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

Ken http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[Xplantdad]

It makes perfect sense!

Joe, we are thinking of you! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif