Bought 70 L78 Nova w/ following codes sight unseen

[70ChevyGuy]

New guy to the site and by no means do I consider myself a serious collector (yet). I’m drawn to 70 Chevys; currently owning a beautiful 70 Nova SS clone and just bought what I hope be a very nice; matching 70 L78 Nova. No protecto plate or build sheet so I’ve spent several hours decoding everything within reason. Not having the time to travel half way across the country to inspect it myself, I located a Concours show judge/appraiser to inspect the car on my behalf before purchasing it (who rates it as a 950 point car and his guess is that it’s all “born with” and date correct). The car is being shipped sight unseen as we speak. I’m requesting anyone to scrutinize the following codes to further enlighten me, make me a fool or point out potential discrepancies. In return I promise to report back to you truthfully with several pic’s when it the car arrives.


Trim Tag:
8T70 11427WRN273410
1-Chev
14-Nova
27-2 Door Sport Coupe
WRN- Willow Run, Michigan plant
273410- Sequence built
TR 733-Black vinyl bucket
48 B PNT (paint code)
48- Forest Green
B- Vinyl top
04B (build code)
04-April
B- 2nd week

VIN# 114270W309435
Eng. Block # 3969854
Eng. Block Date Code: B 20 70
Block Pad #: T0318CTY, 10W309435
Heads: 3964291 rt. F69 left F109
Carb #; 4492
Ex. Manifolds: 3916178 3909879
Intake #; 3963569
Trans. #: 449, 70, CF
Water Pump #: 3969811 OER
Battery: Delco Remy R-59 OCV 10
Rear Axle# CBS 04 15 G 2 Carrier number 3968341
Alt. #- 1100837 0A6 (Jan 6 1970)
Dist. #- 1112000 0B24 (0=1970, B24= Feb. 24)

One thing that strikes me as odd is the rear axle: I’ve been told by more than one Nova-Nut that the trim tag may have been issued early in this case and that it is quite likely the correct axle; especially considering that Willow run is 1 hr away from Detroit.

Have at it gents:

[70 Forest Green Zee]

Car was listed on Cars On Line....here's the link:

http://www.cars-on-line.com/43450.html

[Mr.Nickey Nova]

Saw this car on cars-on-line,seems to be a very nice car,can't go wrong with Forest Green.Good luck and enjoy.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

There should be two more codes on the bottom row of the TT, a single letter and then a 3 or 4 digit number.

[Mr70]

Welcome
Double check your TH400 suffix,as they were unique to the L-78's.
Is your cars CON VIN# stamped into the drivers side horizontal pan rail?
Although the one your showing now with a March 26th assembly date is possible for your cars timeline,the CF suffix was used in LS-3 402/330HP & L-34 402/350HP engines...get the serial # off the al.tag too..
CW was the highshift point TH400 for your car.
Is your #854 block a 4 bolt main also?
Are your Ex.Manifolds tapped for A.I.R?
Curious what your SS wheel assembly dates are,as they were an extra option on the Nova and not automatically included with the Super Sport packg.

[WILMASBOYL78]

Good luck with your Nova...my first L78 car was Forest Green also(36 years ago http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif).....3 things jump out:

CBS coded rear would have to be special ordered...the default rear axle for all the L78 cars was a 3.55 ratio and posi was an option, though most folks ordered it.

Next the trans code should be CW for the special high shift point TH400...the CF coded trannys were used in Novas, but I think the CF units were used with the L34 motors...

last item is the date on the cylinder heads...June of 69 seems a little early for a March 1970 assembly.

Please share some photos when you get her home...sounds like a nice car.

wilma

[70ChevyGuy]

A 3 085

[70 Forest Green Zee]

http://www.cars-on-line.com/43450.html


Click the above link to Cars Online.....there's a slide show with many pictures.


I don't care if the car is 100% correct or not....this Nova is a very very nice car!!! Congrats on your purchase and enjoy it!!

[70ChevyGuy]

Pardon my ignorance on "high Shift point TH400".

Thx

[mockingbird812]

The L78 396s could rev higher and develop HP at a higher rpm than the 350 HP 396, so the special TH400 (code "CW") would shift at a higher rpm to take advantage of this capability (i.e., with the car left in "D" the tranny shifted at a higher rpm).

[WILMASBOYL78]

The CW coded trannys were very similar to the CX and CY coded units that came before in 68-69....HD internals, special governor, 6 lug converter, and so on...these trannys are really something to experience. You put the car in drive...mash the pedal and it upshifts at around 6200-6300 rpm on it's own http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif This worked real well with high revving solid lifter engines. Your car should have a CW coded tranny...

wilma

[70ChevyGuy]

M-bird: With a 3:31 rear end and this tranny I'm a bit perplexed. Both DO in fact seem to be mostly found on L34's with some who claim that they were special ordered on very few L78's. The the engine matches on an extremely thorough restoration. Would seem odd to waste an L78 and such a extensive restoration using an incorrect tranny and rear end; especially on a forest green nova. Similarly if you were to scuff and stamp an L78; why do it on a Green Nova with an incorrect ass end? Open to thoughts in this regard, gents.

[92646]

Well you will know in a few weeks if it was a good buy or not. What is the redline on the tach? Was there any paperwork to show how the car was ordered?

[WILMASBOYL78]

Mark's question about the tach is a good one...the photos in the ad don't show enough detail on the tach. The forest green paint looks very nice....exterior trim matches the trim tag.

wilma

[CDNL-78]

Looks like you bought a keeper, nice looking car. Hope all the numbers work out in your favor. Find out who restored the car, see if they had the back seat out of the car. Maybe theres a line sheet attached to it some where. That would be the first thing to look for when it gets to it's new home. And don't forget the pictures. We like pictures. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[JRSully]

70 Fischer body build sheet won't show engine designation like the 69 does, unless it is a full Broadcast sheet which would but is rarer than Hen's teeth in a Nova. Check the stampings on the block and check the Tach as others pointed out. Sounds like an L34 from the bellhousing back, but I have seen weirder stuff, nice looking car though and you couldn't build it for that much

[92646]

I learn something new every day but I thought the engine code should be CKO for the 375hp/402 Nova. I thought the CTY code was for Chevelle and Camaro only.

[Mr70]

Nope..all three L-78 equipped cars shared those codes,as did other engine suffix codes among vehicles.

70ChevyGuy
I've yet to see/hear of any L-78 engine be backed by a CF trans from the factory.Can you show us examples?
The warranty issues alone would've frightend them off.

What's the casting date on your 3:31?

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

The 'A' and the '3' check out. The 'A' on the TT is for a black interior to match the black seats. The '3' indicates 3 exterior moldings, drip rail, door frame, and rocker.

Also, check the fuel line clips for the 1 or 2 fuel lines.

[70ChevyGuy]

6K tach mathces the one in this example (this site has the right image incidentally but the wrong redline figure). Bottom L78 tach is actually a 6K redline but they do look is deceiving)

Single fuel line.

Rear axle same week as trim tag (was told this is not uncommon on fisher tags from Willow Run) CBS 04 15 G 2 Carrier number 3968341

So I agree, looks L34 from bell housing back. Hard to convince myself someone would order it for high end and not stoplights.




www.chevynova.org/NovaTachs.html (http://www.chevynova.org/NovaTachs.html)

[Mr70]

"Rear axle same week as trim tag (was told this is not uncommon on fisher tags from Willow Run) CBS 04 15 G 2 Carrier number 3968341"


That's the assembly date the rear was set up,not the casting date of the housing.
Look around the 2/4 & 8/10 O'clock areas on the pumpkin to axle webbing for a cast date.
I'm just curious to know the difference between the two.

[Allen]

I've since learned that a 70-only L78 tach looks like this.

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q65/nova_ss396/Tachometer70NovaL78396-viewwithoutf.jpg

[70ChevyGuy]

I thought they went to this tach in december. I have seen several other 6K tachs like mine in other 70 L78's cars (online and in person).

[Allen]

[ QUOTE ]
I thought they went to this tach in december. I have seen several other 6K tachs like mine in other 70 L78's cars (online and in person).

[/ QUOTE ]

That could be that it was a running change. There were several changes introduced in the middle of the '70 production around Dec 69 / Jan 70.

[Nova Research Project]

[ QUOTE ]
I thought they went to this tach in december. I have seen several other 6K tachs like mine in other 70 L78's cars (online and in person).

[/ QUOTE ]

I have seen this same tach in an original September 69 L78 Nova. Which goes against what I thought before. I am trying to nail this down for the tach page.

What was this style from?

http://chevynova.org/Bigblock/TachL78Nova.jpg

Click here to see the other tachs (http://chevynova.org/NovaTachs.html)

Greg

[Allen]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I thought they went to this tach in december. I have seen several other 6K tachs like mine in other 70 L78's cars (online and in person).

[/ QUOTE ]

I have seen this same tach in an original September 69 L78 Nova.

Greg

[/ QUOTE ]

Greg,
You might consider adding that tach picture that I posted to your page also. I thought it was '70 only. The other L78 tach picture that I have on your website came from a '69 and I believe might have been available for '68 also.

[Nova Research Project]

Thanks, Ok, I had that the one posted was 1970 so the helps. See above.

Greg

[70ChevyGuy]

What is A.I.R stamping on manifolds?

[70ChevyGuy]

Have had some PM's and various questions: No power steering, 6K tach (as mentioned) Block casting and stamps all verified and correct, yes 4 bolt main. Extremely clean and original down to wiring harnessing and rubber under the hood. FYI...looking forwared to FIRST hand info once i get the car in person. Thanks for ALL your help.

[Mr70]

A.I.R. is the Air Injection Reactor system,meaning drilled for smog tubes.
All solid lifter engines received them in 1970.Hyrdaulic lifters did not.

http://img46.photobucket.com/albums/v140/Belair62/Peters%20-%20Chevelle/2.jpg

[L78steve]

In 1970 The L/34 tachs had a 5500 red line. The L/78s had a 6250 red line.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Does it have any racing history?

[70ChevyGuy]

Mine is like the bottom...says 5500 but it is a 6000 tack. Have seen this type in several ads for 70 l78's over the last 2 years.

http://www.chevynova.org/NovaTachs.html

[L78steve]

The one at the bottom is a L/34 tach. There are no L/78 tachs on that link.

[Allen]

[ QUOTE ]
The one at the bottom is a L/34 tach. There are no L/78 tachs on that link.

[/ QUOTE ]

All three tachs (small block, L34, and L78) are represented. There is also a fourth with a different yellow / red that has only been seen on the '70 Nova L78. That fourth one is shown in this thread.

The third one on the link is an L78 and has been seen in '68/69.

Also, the RPM numbers listed in the link should refer to and say YELLOW line instead of red line.

[70ChevyGuy]

Ok so help me out...so you are indicating that it is your understanding that tach in the bottom AND the one with the heavy yellow and red were both in 70 L78's?

[Nova Research Project]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, the RPM numbers listed in the link should refer to and say YELLOW line instead of red line.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hello Allen,

Updated the link. Will add a better picture of the last tach when I get home from MCACN.

Click here for the Nova Tach Page (http://chevynova.org/NovaTachs.html)

Greg

[L78steve]

That is the 70 L/78 tach in the above link. There are no other versions of that tach in 1970.

[70ChevyGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
That is the 70 L/78 tach in the above link. There are no other versions of that tach in 1970.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have seen the third one from the top in ads and articles of survivor 70 L78's. On vacation now but will try digging up my images and sources when i returh home and have time.

[70ChevyGuy]

So I cancelled my transaction. And hope others can learn from this experience. Seller and I agreed on terms, I sent a deposit with the remainder to be delivered by a friend in cash who lives very close to the seller and scheduled transport. This all started a forthright advertisement boasting of code and date and casting codes on a beautiful GREEN 70 Nova which I shared with you in this thread; asking for any coding discrepancies I had missed since the car was undocumented. The seller claimed there was no way to make contact with the prior owners of the car; citing a dealer in South Dakota that the car had gone through which had gone out of business. 1400 miles from the car, I hired an accomplished professional to inspect the car with an emphasis on authenticity. He discovers an impeccable restoration on a car "that truly speaks for itself". So I'm convinced I have a beautiful, no excuse car shamefully lacking paperwork...and a rear end the seller and I thought wasn't likely original. Car has all the right signs otherwise; big block SS frame, no power steering, 6K tach and a numbers matching engine. A bit more forum chat yields the fact that it very likely has an L34 tranny (thanks guys for that). None the less it still appears it could be sitting in an L78 car with a correctly casted and stamped engine (per the inspector). My logic at this point being; why on would someone waste a 70 coded L78 engine on a GREEN NOVA and go through such an elaborate and otherwise date correct restoration? Seller insists and is proud that all numbers match. I requested a closeup photo of the tranny and block stamp. Tranny and block have the same vin as the body and the block. So in the absence of documentation that someone mysteriously downgraded the tranny from the factory, the car became a fraud (statistically speaking). As I learned in this thread, the CF coded tranny was only told what to do by L34's and other lower RPM BB's. In spite of a few people who say it was quite possibly born with the car, benefit of any doubt is officially out the window with the remainder of this car.

Tranny VIN stamp: I'm by no means an accomplished observer but after expanding the image and inverting it (it was taken using a mirror) here's what I noticed. First of all, they stamped the vin right side up, not upside down as it is normally done (got this hint from a fellow forum member). And it's evident there was another row of lettering they tried covering up. When stamping, there's often times a deeper impression on either the top or bottom of the characters. The vin appears to have horizontal artifacts mid-level, suggesting the top or bottom of the characters from the original stamp. When realizing he had unsuccessfully accomplished a good "cover-up", it appears he tried beating in what looked like an honest "double strike" which sometimes happens. This might have made sense on one character but not the 1 and the 0. So basically we have a piss poor tranny re-stamp.

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/canovaguy/GreenClone/transtamp.jpg


The block: Casting code and date correct. Vin stamp is another story. Most striking similarity between the tranny and the block is the odd shaped W; indicating that whoever stamped the tranny used the same stamping kit on the block and the tranny (normally this is correct but in this case it proves they’re both bunk). A magnified look at the block stamp shows it was clearly planed more deeply on the right to erase a prior vin (there's even a chunk missing; probably from the agitation of this process). You can also see prior-stamping artifacts between the 1 and 0 (the original 1 can be seen). And between and behind the 9 4 3 and 5 there are artifacts. There are the remains of a 7 just above and to the left of the 4 and an what appears to be a 2 to the left of the 5.

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/canovaguy/GreenClone/blockstamp.jpg

Magnified version:

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/canovaguy/GreenClone/blockmagnified.jpg

The 6K tach in the dash: Magnified, you can see grease marks and fingerprints; unlikely from the factory.

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/canovaguy/GreenClone/l78tach.jpg

More research: I friend of a friend coincidentally found a former Ebay ad they had filed away with the same vin and a 427 with a roll cage. I called the number in the ad and discovered that the seller I was dealing with had contacted him and was clearly told about the 427 and roll cage.

So my guess on this car is a guy finds a properly dated L78 block and an L34 chassis, pours his heart, sole and wallet into cloning it but makes the mistake of not checking the correct engine and tranny combinations for L78 Novas. He sells it to the guy I was buying it from who probably didn't realize it until he found his way to the former owner a few months ago. Discovering this; he decides to sell it and fabricates the "closed South Dakota dealer" history barrier and represents the car as an honest L78.

My lesson: There will never again be a car nice enough in my mind that "speaks for itself". I continued requesting close-up pic's and continued speaking with members of these forums over the phone and in PM's....made a couple friends in the process. As a newcomer to the Nova world I uncovered a counterfeit 1400 miles from home while a seasoned show judge let it pass under his nose. In fairness the only way to see the re-stamp on the block is to photograph and expand the image. Mind you, this is still a beautiful car for anyone looking for a nicely done SS. It's at least an original L34 in my estimation and the seller was fact "kind enough" to return my deposit.

At any rate, I enjoyed the journey, thanks for your help and any leads on a documented 70 L78 would be appreciated!

[67BelAir427]

Glad to hear that you find out the truth. The seller is a car dealer in Minnesota.Never mind the show judge, I think I'll contact you to inspect the next car I buy! Good research.

[njsteve]

Very nice detective work!

Just goes to show that the best way to check out a car is to do it yourself, in person, or have someone that knows these cars intimately, check it out in person. No show car judges, no musclecar dealers, no buddies of the seller.

You did a great job on running this dog to ground!

You have passed the initiation and are now an official member of the site!

Welcome aboard, Sir. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[olredalert]

-----The broach marks also tell the "restamp" tale......Bill S

[MosportGreen66]

[ QUOTE ]
-----The broach marks also tell the "restamp" tale......Bill S

[/ QUOTE ]

Could not agree more Bill!

[Mr.Nickey Nova]

Yes,the broach marks are on the heavy side,good call Bill and the number (3)are a different font also.It pays to do your homework and going to the right web site for info.

[Mr70]

I'm glad to hear you figured it out.

[resto4u]

The engine stamp appears real, but they restamped the vin# ?

[Mr70]

It's probably a real 1970 L-78 engine,but they applied a new VIN# on the end to match the chassis VIN#..(L-34 or whatever it actually was),to appear as if they were mated originally.
...they weren't.

[70ChevyGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
It's probably a real 1970 L-78 engine,but they applied a new VIN# on the end to match the chassis VIN#..(L-34 or whatever it actually was),to appear as if they were mated originally.
...they weren't.

[/ QUOTE ]

EXACTLY! Maybe he should have re-vin'd the car http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[70ChevyGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
Glad to hear that you find out the truth. The seller is a car dealer in Minnesota.Never mind the show judge, I think I'll contact you to inspect the next car I buy! Good research.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct about the dealer. Seemed very honest/humble and seemed surprized when I pointed out the magnified block stamp and mentioned the race history. Oddly cooperative along the way in getting all the pic's for me. I was truly shocked when I learned he had most likely spoken to the guy who owned it with the 427 and cage in it only a few months back. He said he'd owned it since march so I have no reason to think someone else called 3 months ago tracing the history. Whatever...all's well that ends well.

[TDW]

If you don't mind, I'd like to know how you became aware of, and who is the "Show judge". As in, does he openly advertise in the major publications, or is he someone that was recomended to you? I went through pretty much the same thing when I was looking for my L78 Chevelle. I was AMAZED at the BS and flat out liars that are selling cars.

[Smokey]

This car has been on the local Craiglist for many months.

[70ChevyGuy]

I'd like to keep the names out of this. But if anyone is actually hiring an appraiser in the St Paul area, send me a PM and I'll let you know if it's the same guy http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif. My guess is he just was'nt really much of a Nova guy and even made the comment that "it's unusual to see people invest much in these things". When he saw one with what he estimated to be 70K invested he made caved mentally, made assumptions, snapped a few far away shots and moved on. Nice guy but I found myself leading him down the path...from the initial conclusion of screaming deal to "good idea to back out". I was surprised when he didn't offer to refund my money. He can live with that one and frankly I didn't feel it was worth fighting over so I didn't even ask.

And yea, I was stalking that craigslist ad for months. Not a waste of time at all in the big picture and I'm not pissed in the least. What better way to begin a journey toward finding the right "investment grade" 70 L78? I'd still like to own it as a driver but it's not worth much over 25 grand in this economy regardless of how shiny it might be.

[Smokey]

There is a 396 70 Chevelle on there if your up for a journey for 20-25k

[TDW]

Oh, Ok then.

[70ChevyGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
There is a 396 70 Chevelle on there if your up for a journey for 20-25k

[/ QUOTE ]

Where's the ad on the chevelle?

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Hence my question if the car had ever been raced http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[70ChevyGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
Hence my question if the car had ever been raced http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Coincidence is so over-rated.

[70ChevyGuy]

Now that it's public record with a new ad: This should answer questions as to whom the inspector/appraiser was. MY appraisal was more than 10K higher than the one in the listing and the reason it was lowered was due to my research, not by the appraisal service (the gentleman referenced int he ad). He's now selling as a clone which is sadly is worth less than 30K in this economy no matter what you say. Seems odd he's still baffled by the tranny. Poorly re-stamped and not code correct for an L78. And I was never offered my appraisal fee back by Classic. Next time I'll buy a plane ticket and a hotel instead of relying on an on site "expert". FYI, I brought to the sellers attention the ebay ad that had a roll cage and a 427 in it and spoke with a prior owner who says this guy clearly knew it formerly had the cage and 427 because he called and asked about it himself. Not trying to be an @ss but both the seller AND appraiser sent me down a path that cou0ld have cost me over ten grand in equity and shipping fees. I'm beginning to understand those who escape the drama and focus on well done cars that speak for themselves with regard to condition alone with no concern over spids, build sheets, protectos, BOS's and BS-ers.

http://www.cars-on-line.com/44724.html

Text in the ad on Carsonline mysteriously reads as follows:

Chevy Nova SS L78 (Clone) . True SS Nova, L78 clone. After owning and attempting to sell this car for several months it has come to my attention that it could possibly be a re-stamped (pad only) block. Block pad shows: T0318 CTY 10W309435 (last 6 of the VIN). I have pictures of the pad to e-mail if interested. It has a correct block for a 1970 L78, SS Nova, with a 4-bolt main and correct date code (B 20 70). It has the correct heads, intake, carb, dist., vacuum adv., water pump (OER) and both ex. manifolds. I have been told, but still not 100% convinced, that it has the wrong trans. The tag shows CF (402), but I have been told it should show CW (402, 375hp).The rest of the tag is correct: 449 (built March 24, 1970), 70 (1970). The rear end is a 12 bolt 3:31 posi, with a correct housing code but built about the same time the car was built (CBS 04 15). Whether a true L78 or a clone it would be impossible to duplicate this vehicle for the asking price. It is still a fully restored, frame off restoration, with a 375hp, 4-bolt main block, heads, intake, carb, dist and ex. manifolds. It is new from the front bumper to the rear bumper. New radiator, hoses, clamps, fender wells, wheels, tires, brakes, fuel and brake lines,Delco battery (w/correct date codes), wiring (under hood and dash), cap, rotor, plug wires (w/correct date codes), front suspension, spindles, bearings, bushings, fuel tank, straps,dual ex., complete interior, correct dash bezel with correct L78 tack plus more. New paint and vinyl top. All above parts are original reproduction. Classic Car Appraisal Service from St. Louis Park, MN. examined my car thourghly, drove it and gave it an apprisal of $35,000.00. Not as a SS L78 but as a Nova SS L34 with a L78, 396/375hp engine. If you should have any interest I would be happy to give you Webster's phone number and you can speak with him about the car. His last words to me before he left was "impeccable restoration". Because I can not confirm this to be a true 1970 L78 SS Nova, I will have to sell it as a clone. This car is an immaculate frame-off restoration and is 100% ride and drive. Whether the next owner drives or trailers this car, I guarantee you will get all the looks and trophy's you will ever need.
Price - $ 34,995

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