One of ? L89 Nova for sale at Russo and Steele [Archive]

Rixls6

11-25-2009, 07:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Possible scenario: If the car has 074 open chamber heads, and if 12.5:1 closed chamber pistons were used would that not put the squeeze around 11:1? I feel if the car is legit then the owner should have no problem with sharing all the internals of the engine. Dates and Part numbers on the heads, Piston compression ratio and part numbers, Is the Deck surface original where the stampings are. Does the vin number on the trans match the same font as the engine deck? Also I agree that if he could get a hold of Calvin ------ of Hatboro PA. he should do everything to get a hold of this original owner. I for one would like to get this myth dispelled once and for all. LETS GET THE FULL STORY!!!!! Theres more to tell than the POP http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

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What's the truth about this snippet from the Hemmings story.

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On the mechanical side, Brian Henderson of Super Car Workshop, who had recommended Legendary when his own slate was full, examined the block's decks to see if the factory broach marks were intact; this was a means of determining if the code and VIN stampings were legit or recreations. Reportedly, despite initial skepticism, Henderson came away convinced that the engine was unmolested; because the CKT code is unique to an L89 Nova, this looks to be the only one known to exist.

After Henderson looked at the engine, Legendary had Active Engines in Mississauga, Ontario, go through the block again. Top-end assembly was done in-house at Legendary, where the paint finish was also handled. Klutt revealed that for true restorations, they prefer to use spray cans to paint the engine. "Using mixed paint in a gun produces a fantastic-looking engine, but it's not correct. The paint build is too high, and it fills in the texture of the castings." Legendary also replicates factory overspray, drips and runs, again as gleaned from original cars and experts.

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BUIZILLA

11-25-2009, 08:02 PM

I don't think public posting of someones home phone number is very cool without their permission... with that said.... call him quick !!

Steven J

11-25-2009, 08:19 PM

I thought about that, but the number was available/listed through Zabasearch.

Justbad Joe

11-25-2009, 10:48 PM

HOWIE SUCKS!!!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

x Baldwin Motion

11-25-2009, 11:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Both addresses are within minutes of me but i do not believe the two guys are the same person.

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there's only one way to find out......

Wardy

11-26-2009, 12:23 AM

According to the Montgomery County Tax records, Alvin and his wife Barbara sold 418 Corinthian in October of 2004. That's pretty encouraging. Don't you think the current Nova owner would have tried to track him down?

1968 nova ss

11-26-2009, 12:28 AM

i hope somebody gets to the bottom of this .is there a legit L-89 nova out there or not.Keep plugging guys;alot of us want to put this to rest one way or another.chris

Kim_Howie

11-26-2009, 12:34 AM

Your the ONE that was on your knees over the weekend!!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

markjohnson

11-26-2009, 12:39 AM

You all sound like a bunch of stalkers looking up Mr. White's past addresses, phone numbers, heck......even his actual existance.

Wardy

11-26-2009, 12:48 AM

Russo put the POP on their webpage with the name and old address. Putting that address into superpages.com to get a name and using that name to get public tax records... well yeah it's a little stalkerish.
Honestly, I was doubtful that the address was legit so I didn't expect to find anything.

kwhizz

11-26-2009, 02:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
According to the Montgomery County Tax records, Alvin and his wife Barbara sold 418 Corinthian in October of 2004. That's pretty encouraging. Don't you think the current Nova owner would have tried to track him down?

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A couple of years ago when he was at Vettefest......I had a conversation with the owner and he said he was the fifth owner of the car...He also said he had all the names of the previous owners......I asked if he had contacted them to establish a Documented History of the car as the POP (as I was told) is the only Paperwork with the car......he said he had called them and left messages, but they had never called back.......Hummmm!!!!........then we got into the 074 heads and the conversation went down hill real fast http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif ......other than that I defer to the Experts http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

Ken http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

CDNL-78

11-26-2009, 06:16 AM

Well, who's gonna make the call ?? Somebody's has to know the facts on this car.
Does anybody know someone who worked on the production line at Willow Run back then that could answer the aluminum head question ?? The truth is out there somewhere. If this goes on much longer, we might have to call unsolved mysteries to get the answer. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

ron67

11-26-2009, 09:29 AM

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Also was at the Nova Nats 2 years ago in Gettysburg. I believe Dave Frendel owned the car then and/or still does.

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Dave Frendel owned it at the 2008 Nova Nationals in Gettysburg. I seem to remember a couple of guys named Grady and Mike stole the show that year with a certain 1969 Nova. They cleaned up. Dave did not seem too happy about that. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
Also Wayne Bushey discussed in length the L-89 option with Mr. Frendel at the nationals that year.

NOVAL89

12-02-2009, 11:23 PM

To dispel all myths and questions about my car, I can assure you that its real and the only one. I bought the car in 2003 from a guy in Long Island. I was looking for an L78 car when I came across my car. The original engine block, heads, intake, water pump, and carb as well as the original tranny and rear came with the car. During restoration at Legendary, they disassembled the engine in front of me, BKH, and Klutt to examine the broach marks and dates. All of the engine components were authenticated at that time as original and numbers matching. Brian examined all of the drivetrain components with magnifying glass as well as the POP. I wanted to know the truth if the car was real or not before I decided to proceed on a very expensive and lengthy restoration. all of the hidden sheet metal VINs were also found and examined. Every engine, drivetrain, and body component is correct. I have a list of every date and code on the car (and close up photos) which I will bring to the R & S auction. As far as contacting the owner on the POP; I tried several years to call all of the calvin whites in Hatboro and surrounding towns, but no luck. I also tried to contact the chevy dealer (stahl chevrolet in southampton) and had no luck. Once the car was examined in detail by Brian and Klutt and a full report was made I was convinced that my car was real and VERY VALUABLE. I showed the car in a few national concourse (Greenwich, Meadowbrook, and New England) events as well as vettefest twice and NNN nationals. Anyone who has met me at the shows and seen the car knows how spectacular this Nova is. I can be contacted via this site or call my cell if you have any questions or comments. The new owner who buys my car at R&S auction will be getting one of the rarest chevy supercars ever produced.
Dave 201-965-5563

SuperNovaSS

12-02-2009, 11:28 PM

Dave,

Thanks for taking the time to post. What are the dates on the 074 heads?

Jason

NOVAL89

12-03-2009, 01:12 AM

Jason

1/12/70 and 1/16/70

Dave

kwhizz

12-03-2009, 01:20 AM

I guess that clears everything up......... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

Ken http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

12-03-2009, 02:55 AM

Stahl became Kennedy Chevrolet.

Nova Research Project

12-03-2009, 03:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I bought the car in 2003 from a guy in Long Island.

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Hello Dave,

I think I remember this car being for sale back then. What month did you buy it?

Thanks,
Greg

kwhizz

12-03-2009, 04:30 AM

The original engine block, heads, intake, water pump, and carb as well as the original tranny and rear came with the car.

Dave

Humm!!

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat...true#Post236116 (http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=UBB5&Number=236116&Search page=1&Main=227800&Words=+NOVAL89&topic=&Search=tr ue#Post236116)

Ken

x Baldwin Motion

12-03-2009, 04:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Stahl became Kennedy Chevrolet.

[/ QUOTE ]

In Southampton? What years are we talking about here?

Mr.Nickey Nova

12-03-2009, 04:44 AM

Good detective work Ken!!

Rixls6

12-03-2009, 04:53 AM

I still don't understand why an open chamber (074) cylinder head is being used on this engine, when all the 1970 big block L78/L89 production engines would have used a closed chamber (842) head and piston combo to come up with the designed 11.25:1 compression ratio?????
What am I missing here??? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

markjohnson

12-03-2009, 05:09 AM

Well, if Brian Henderson of the Supercar Workshop is vouching for this car and it's authenticity, then that's enough for me and a lot of other people. The auction house can and probably will use Brian's inspection and approval to help market the car to interested buyers that might just need that little extra piece of proof.

bkhpah

12-03-2009, 05:46 AM

This is what I found when looking at the car for Dave. I met Dave at Legendary to inspect the car. The car was at that time already apart, and the body was in the paint booth. The entire drive train was out of the car. Some of the parts were already apart for restoration. The engine itself was still intact. Dave brought all his documentation along, and he did a great deal of his own research. He had GM documents with the engine code I believe he got from Fran Preve. He had factory doc's like the POP. Peter Klutt among others examined the POP comparing it to other 70' POPs that Klutt had. There was NOTHING to indicate that the POP was not legit. It matched all the other ones on hand that day. From the glue to the fonts, it was for all we could tell authentic to the car. All the other codes matched the car 100%. The engine was on a stand and had yet to be taken apart. The Legendary Camera Crew was on hand to see EXACTLY what we found that day. Legendary's lead guys were present along with Klutt as the engine was taken apart. The pad itself had some light surface rust. There was no evidence of any step down on the pad from a previous decking. The heads were removed to see if indeed the broach marks extended from one side to the other, and they did. From all accounts it looked to be untouched and real. The heads were present and the dates noted. There was nothing to indicate the car was pieced together. The documents looked right, as did the block. Since there is not another pad like this to even match up too, it is impossible to tell what the others look like. Could it have been faked? I guess anything is possible, but it looked right. If it is wrong, it is exceptional. The original parts all had pitting and wear. Nothing was CRISP. I think the car is legit. If you are a serious player on the car, inspect it yourself. Dave came off to me as an honest guy. The car was already deep into the resto at Legendary when I was asked to look at it. There was no turning back at that point...BKH

Lynn

12-03-2009, 05:54 AM

Hi Dave:

You probably don't remember me, but I sat at the table with you at the Supercar reunion in 2007. Your car is beautiful. Good luck with the sale. Hopefully you can shed some light on your request for 074 heads. I know I have three sets of heads for my Z/28, all dated correctly, so I would understand you buying extra parts.

When the engine was disassembled, did it have 074 heads or 842 heads?

Thanks for posting.

wheelhop

12-03-2009, 05:54 AM

Brian,
thanks for your insight. I don't know much about Novas but what a lot of guys seem to have trouble with involving this car is the O74 heads. Were they on there when you looked at the motor?

NOVAL89

12-03-2009, 06:53 AM

Lynn,

the car had 074's on it not 842's...Yeah I wanted to have an extra set to put on the car to drive around with and show. I didnt want the original heads to blow or crack and the snowflake was worn off. Obviously the value and rarity of my car are the heads, so If I blew the original ones then that would be it. I saw the ad for the 074's so I called to get an extra set. the original heads were on the car when Brian and Klutt examined it.

Dave

Pulnaway

12-03-2009, 03:34 PM

Brian, Can you verify that in you opinion the heads and intake had never been removed? ie original headgaskets and such? I dont think anyone disbelieves that the car is a factory bigblock car. The question revolves around the heads as being factory installed. I know when replacing heads the all surfaces have to be cleaned leaving marks. Were there any such marks? Any original paper showing the heads as being factory? If there is any paper showing this can we see it or the part of it showing the factory details. Being that the car is for sale I would think the the paperwork would be key.

kwhizz

12-03-2009, 03:53 PM

Dave...........So....Not only (according to you) is your car the "Only" one of one L-89 Novas made......But....It's the "Only" L-89 produced with 074 Heads.........Is that what you are saying?.......If so.....what is the GM part # for the pistons that were used in the engine rebuild.....In my opinion....If I had the "Holy Grail" car......I would hire someone with the experience to track the previous owners and get a "Documented" history trail of the car to "Validate" the pedigree............After all......since it's so valuable, the slight added expense would be worth it.....
I know I'm going to get in trouble with some here by stirring the pot.......But.....I'm just posting what "Most" are thinking........Again.....If it were my car I would take whatever means possible to "Validate" the History and I would be pushing the paperwork as much as the car.....It's easy to build a real appearing L-89 Nova....I've done it and you've seen it....and it's got a CKP stamped block with Broach marks using GM stamps.......the Block was supplied by a guy that specializes in restoring engines for the Corvette guys...........So.....It didn't just fall out of the sky magically one day......and it's not presented as real......."Validate"....."Validate".......The 074 Heads are a major problem in trying to Sell your story....After all....If the car sells for large Money (as it should if real) and the next owner can prove otherwise.....you will be at Risk...........again....."Validate"....."Validate".....Puzzles are big and have a lot of pieces.....hard to see the Big Picture with a couple of small speculative pieces
Time to get in the "Bunker".......Just my $.02

Ken

Hotrodpaul

12-03-2009, 05:02 PM

If the motor was out then I am sure detailed pics were taken of the assembly and VIN stamp. Most of the L78 Nova blocks I have seen were VIN stamped on the pad at Willow Run. Posting of these pics would probably clear up some confusion. I would like to see them...
Here is an example block I owned a while back:
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y86/Hotrodpaul86/DSCN4491.jpg

Paul

BUIZILLA

12-03-2009, 05:42 PM

is it agreed that 311 L89 engines were built out for the '69 model year according to printed research so far?

so, how many ended up in Chevelle's?

and how many in Camaro's?

then only one with the misplaced 074's ended up in this car? while i'm thrilled this could be the Holy Grail, there is nothing that states that along the way the heads could have been switched for whatever reason... like a warranty swap for some reason the first year? i'm hard with Kwhizz, find the original or first couple owners, cause that's the clencher...

I don't see how ANYBODY, at this juncture, can state that these were POSITIVELY factory installed, just because they were on there when the dissassembly witness process took place 3 decades or so later.

WILMASBOYL78

12-03-2009, 05:47 PM

Jim, the car in discussion is a 1970 model year Nova...not 1969. Just wanted to be sure you knew that.

I'm leaving for the woods..Tibor and Cumby are in charge http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

ron67

12-03-2009, 06:03 PM

A lot of great advice! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

Kim_Howie

12-03-2009, 06:25 PM

Me & Tiger talked about this and are having problems is the 074 heads. These heads are open chamber 108 cc. GM never made a piston for a 396 open chamber. These heads were only on the L-88 & the ZL-1 both 427ci. I have a real problem with those heads on a 396. By the way we both got woods from the car. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

Fast67VelleN2O

12-03-2009, 07:12 PM

I am extremely curious about what piston was used in this engine as well. In order to be a correct 11:1 compression ratio, you couldn't use standard closed chamber piston and an open chamber head to get this ratio. The only other piston at the time that would have been used was the L88 or ZL-1 piston, but even then, thats too much compression (12.5:1) and not a 396 piston. The factory would have had to make a special set of pistons for all of this to work correctly.

69SSZL1

12-03-2009, 07:21 PM

Head #3946074 open chamber 118cc. ZL-1, L-88, and 1971 LS-6 Corvette. Round exhaust ports. Piston for 396/375 GM #3878231 11:1 compression with 106.8cc closed chamber head #3919842. Calculculated compression with this new combo: 10:1 at best. Too low for the #3863143 camshaft. It is highly unlikly for GM engineers to mis-match open and closed chamber componants. I am just saying, IMHO.

Smokey

12-03-2009, 07:24 PM

So what ones needs to show is a pic of the pistons that were in the block and a micrometer reading showing that they are or were std. bore.

I agree about Ken's comment. Hunt and spend some time and money on finding all the owners. Hunt down the address on the POP and visit them and all the old neighbors. Go to the city utilities and see who owned or payed the bills on the address give at the time in the date time. Get a detective if one needs to. This car could and should be considered as the holy one, and spending the $$ documenting and proving it could and should double the money. I see it could hit 200-400k....maybe more since it would be considered as one of the top 3 Nova's of all time.

Salvatore

12-03-2009, 07:57 PM

Contact Bruce Shaw Esquire. He and his brother Terry had a speed shop in Willow Grove during those years. He is also a car appraiser and so forth. Bruce may even remember such a rare car. Whoever owned that car back then would almost HAVE to go to Shaws Speed Shop in Willow Grove for even just plugs and oil. Like Tibor said "get workin on it." http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

12-03-2009, 08:53 PM

I'm referring to Southampton, PA = very close to Hatboro, PA.

If I recall the EBaY ad from way back, the POP was the selling point on this car because wasn't it missing the engine?

72-SS-L48

12-03-2009, 10:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Contact Bruce Shaw Esquire. He and his brother Terry had a speed shop in Willow Grove during those years. He is also a car appraiser and so forth. Bruce may even remember such a rare car. Whoever owned that car back then would almost HAVE to go to Shaws Speed Shop in Willow Grove for even just plugs and oil. Like Tibor said "get workin on it." http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Sam,

Did Bruce Shaw have a 66 Mosportgreen on Black L72 Convertible a few years back? Ended up selling it, buying it back and selling it again?

Actually, if I'm thinking of the right person he has a few cars and a nice 3 or 4 car garage with lifts at his house?

Thanks,
Dave

PeteLeathersac

12-03-2009, 11:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]

If I recall the EBaY ad from way back, the POP was the selling point on this car because wasn't it missing the engine?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not by chance thinking of the '69 L89 Camaro w/ POP and missing engine on eBay a few years back are you Marl?.
It had a kind've Harrel looking stripe and Chuck 427King bought it then offered it for sale a few times here later?.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/223357/page/0/fpart/all/vc/1

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
~ Pete

69SSZL1

12-03-2009, 11:40 PM

I would just put on the correct 842 heads and be done with it. Those 074 heads can never be validated, especially after being on the engine for 35 years. Back then, anyone could have used GM head and intake gaskets. There is no way the factory put those on.

copo-2

12-03-2009, 11:49 PM

69ssZL1 is correct about the 074 heads having 118 cc's, while the L-89 heads (842's) were 106.8 cc's. As he states the 8231 pistons would create a compression ratio of around 9.8 to 1, being able to run on today's premium gas? This I know for fact because I personally have this combination I have tried on a .030 427. This combination was about 10:1 and because of the alum. heads, had no trouble with pre-iginition. The 074 head as stated was designed and used on the L-88 & ZL-1. The 842 heads was used on the 11:1 L-89's, is my personal thought?

This may have been mentioned before, but does anyone have records as to how many 402 L-89's were built in 1970, and what they went into? In previous years, (68 & 69) the L-89 can be documented in their use of Camaro's, Chevelles, & Corvettes? No Novas or Passenger cars in those years as far as any information I have been able to come up with? Many more with the L-89 factory combination was produced in the previous years? I guess there is always a possibility, but why would this have not happened before 1970 and built enough ( 50 ) to set up a class in NHRA Super Stock? Back in those days, NHRA specifications were pretty strict.

Kim_Howie

12-04-2009, 12:39 AM

Name one 1970 car that came with alum. heads. I don't know of any. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

Rixls6

12-04-2009, 01:18 AM

18 1970 big block Chevelles got the aluminum heads.

69SSZL1

12-04-2009, 01:46 AM

What casting are those Alum Chevelle heads? I just checked my Colvin book for '70-75 and don't come up with any alum heads for that time except the '71 074 castings. All 70 and up had tapered seat spark plugs, so I was wrong, even the 842 castings would be incorrect.

1968 nova ss

12-04-2009, 02:07 AM

Mr.L-89.I would be curious to know what wayne Bushey of National Nostalgic nova thought about the L-89 as a legitimate L-89 car.i have spoke to Wayne quite a few times about a possible L-89 car.Mr.L-89 ,it great your commenting on the car;i think most of us want to believe there is a original L-89 nova;i think it is mostly the 074 heads ;if the car was a 69 with .,say a 842 head it would be an easier shoein.chris

BUIZILLA

12-04-2009, 04:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Jim, the car in discussion is a 1970 model year Nova...not 1969. Just wanted to be sure you knew that.

[/ QUOTE ] OHHH, I'M AWARE OF THAT.... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

Charley Lillard

12-04-2009, 05:30 AM

What was the compression ratio on the 71 LS6 Vette ? It was low as I recall.

69SSZL1

12-04-2009, 05:37 AM

1971 Corvette LS-6 454ci compression ratio 9:1. 425 hp @5600, 475 tq @4000. Has a domed piston.

92646

12-04-2009, 05:46 AM

I am going off of memory but I thought you needed to modify the dome of a high compression closed chamber piston because it was too close to some part of an open chamber head. If the motor was out did it get rebuilt with new pistons? If so would the old pistons still be available for inspection?

Mr70

12-04-2009, 06:12 AM

Kim
I currently know about 3 of the original 18 1970 L-89 factory assembled SS Chevelles.
They reportedly came w/842 heads..
They are still on this earth today and documented.

MosportGreen66

12-04-2009, 06:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Kim
I currently know about 3 of the original 18 1970 L-89 factory assembled SS Chevelles.
They reportedly came w/842 heads..
They are still on this earth today and documented.

[/ QUOTE ]

Post photos please.

copo-2

12-04-2009, 06:59 AM

Mr70,

Of the 3 L-89 70 Chevelles you mention, would you happen to have information concerning the possibility of them being produced early in the model run or not?

92646,

The 11:1 TRW piston worked just fine without modification in my motor. However, it seems a .040 head gasket was used as we weren't sure about how much compression we could run on pump gas with the alum. heads? As for the domes, I don't think it would have been an issue with a thinner head gasket?

Mr70

12-04-2009, 07:08 AM

Yep because they started life as L-78's,they were early assembled cars too.August-Nov 1969.

....post photos please

Dan
Two owners are/were on TChevelle 9 years ago..One has posted pix publically of it's restoration.
The 2nd one won't,& the third doesn't care to get into a pissing match today.Say's he's keeping it anyway,so what does he care what others think.He's had it forever and will continue to do so.
All have sent me asorted buildsheets,P-O-P's,dealer shipper,engine stamping pix,whatever etc.After talking to them and seeing what each sent me,I fully believe these to be authentic and respect their privacy to the utmost.
These 3 cars are no secret to those who are enthusiastic about em,but there's just "more a$$holes then there are a$$es out there" as one of em put it.

Kim_Howie

12-04-2009, 05:52 PM

I just wanted to know about one, not 18 of them. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif O K I didn't know about them. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

markjohnson

12-05-2009, 01:38 AM

The '71 LS-6 Corvettes are something I was also gonna bring up. I'm pretty sure Tonawanda just slapped the 118cc Open Chamber Aluminum heads onto a standard 11.00-1 closed chamber piston motor. This is gonna knock the compression ratio down to 9 or 10.00-1. I'm also pretty sure that the Crate LS-6 's that were produced for several decades as 10.2-1 Compression engines were done so by putting Cast Iron Open Chamber heads onto a closed-chamber piston short block.

RPO LS7

12-05-2009, 04:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The '71 LS-6 Corvettes are something I was also gonna bring up. I'm pretty sure Tonawanda just slapped the 118cc Open Chamber Aluminum heads onto a standard 11.00-1 closed chamber piston motor.

[/ QUOTE ]
6262976 (http://www.google.ca/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGLR_enCA255CA256&q=piston+6262976)

70 Forest Green Zee

12-05-2009, 04:24 AM

This has been a very interesting thread, I've read every post from the first to the last. First off let me say I have a great deal of respect for Brian Henderson for the quality of work that he and his crew does, and his second to none knowledge of Chevy Novas. Here's my question and what I'm having a problem with: Brian was standing right there when the engine in question was disassembled so he obviously knows both what heads were on the engine when it was disassembled, and what pistons were in the engine during dis-assembly. These two components are basically what will determine the cars authenticity. Brian, you can end this right now by stating what were the heads and date codes during dis assembly, and what pistons were present at the time this engine was disassembled.

kwhizz

12-06-2009, 04:00 PM

Dave............Still waiting for an explanation on the 1970 Head/ Piston combination for the 074 heads on a 396 block..........GM Piston Part#'...... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/BruceRocks.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/HollyRocks.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/BruceRocks.gif

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/BelairSucks.gif

kwhizz

12-07-2009, 01:31 AM

After doing some research on the Piston/Head combo's.....Putting 074 heads on a L78 short block would yield approx 9.5 to 1 compression.....doesn't make any sense why the factory would do that in a High Performance application......there was also concerns about the posibility of the closed chamber piston dome hitting the 074 head in the exhaust valve area, even though the chamber was larger ..... Some hit....some didn't......so.....Why would GM put High Performance Aluminum Heads and lower the compression ratio by 1.5 points........Seems more likely that the heads were added at some time in the cars early life by someone who didnt know the difference.. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

Ken http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

Charley Lillard

12-07-2009, 02:15 AM

Isn't that what they did with the 71 LS6 ?

69SSZL1

12-07-2009, 02:55 AM

No, the 1971 LS-6 had a special piston used only in that application. It had valve reliefs and a special dome. The 9:1 compression was not a problem due to the larger 454 ci.

Charley Lillard

12-07-2009, 03:48 AM

But the end result was about the same compression ratio. I'm just pointing out that GM could have done something like what we have here.

Rixls6

12-07-2009, 03:51 PM

But why would GM put 842's on a 70 Chevelle with the L89 option, yet use the 074 for a Nova???

kwhizz

12-07-2009, 04:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
But the end result was about the same compression ratio. I'm just pointing out that GM could have done something like what we have here.

[/ QUOTE ]

11.0 to 1 with 842's and 9.5 with the 074's....and a possibility of the Domes on the Stock L-78 Pistons hitting the Combustion Chamber in the Exhaust valve area....the Closed Chamber had a straight sidewall next to the exhaust valve which shrouded it......the open has a much larger chamber, but to unshroud the valve, they open up that area, but tapered it and that's where possible contact would occur.........I'll see if I can find that 3 page Wiki-article later and post it..........Bottom line......GM "Never" made a piston for a 396 or 402 block to work with the 074 head...........I think Dave didn't do enough research about the head situation before deciding they were Factory installed on this size engine.....the 074's were only used on larger displacement engines where GM made pistons for that application.....

Been down this road.....when I was building the Gold Nova into a L-89 clone....the first set of heads I bought were 074's because I didn't know any better.....The Engine builder then informed me about the compression issue and Piston un-availability.......Sold them and bought the 842's from a member here......Got an education...Again.....The Heads are the "Value" to this car as he states.....Yet.....Everthing seems to indicate that some just installed them at some time in the cars past....
Look .......Don't want to be a "Jerk" here.....But, Dave is presenting the car as "Factory"......Yet, for all the knowledge that is here about knowing the smallest detail about the correct color of brake line clips, etc...A pass is given to a Engine combination that was "Never" a RPO is Amazing to me...........It just go's to show the "Respect" that everyone has for Brian's opinion....but...If Dave provided the "Documentation" and Brian and Klutt accepted that as Gosphel.....Well??...
Again........It's up to Dave to do a "Verified" Documented History of the car to prove it's pedigree to a potential new owner......The Heads are the Problem.....I know that the car had Issues and doubts in Judging at a couple of shows......?????? Wonder Why??

Ken http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/BruceRocks.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/HollyRocks.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/BruceRocks.gif

iluv69s

12-07-2009, 04:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Brian, you can end this right now by stating what were the heads and date codes during dis assembly, and what pistons were present at the time this engine was disassembled.

[/ QUOTE ]

...inquiring minds want to know....

Pulnaway

12-07-2009, 05:58 PM

He ( the owner ) has already given the date codes for both heads.
1/12/70 and 1/16/70.

Kim_Howie

12-07-2009, 06:21 PM

I would like to know the casting # inside the piston?? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

427.060

12-07-2009, 07:48 PM

It would be nice to know if he bought the heads he asked Chuck about. If he did, what were the casting dates?
James

kwhizz

12-08-2009, 01:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Brian, you can end this right now by stating what were the heads and date codes during dis assembly, and what pistons were present at the time this engine was disassembled.

[/ QUOTE ]

...inquiring minds want to know....

[/ QUOTE ]

The Dates are not the Issue as the 074's started production....I believe in late 68 for use on 427 L-88's and ZL1's.......So...It is possible for the dates to match

Ken http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

BUIZILLA

12-08-2009, 01:25 AM

I spent about 7 years researching this already... with that said, I'd say the heads were installed somewhere along the way, the piston/head combo ain't friendly with stock GM head gaskets... I can't esplain the P-Plate though Lucy..

L78steve

12-08-2009, 06:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I spent about 7 years researching this already... with that said, I'd say the heads were installed somewhere along the way, the piston/head combo ain't friendly with stock GM head gaskets... I can't explain the P-Plate though Lucy..

[/ QUOTE ]Instead of looking at the heads which could have been changed early on perhaps in error under warranty the POP and the block stamp should be examined carefully.

1969L78Nova

12-08-2009, 06:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I spent about 7 years researching this already... with that said, I'd say the heads were installed somewhere along the way, the piston/head combo ain't friendly with stock GM head gaskets... I can't explain the P-Plate though Lucy..

[/ QUOTE ]Instead of looking at the heads which could have been changed early on perhaps in error under warranty the POP and the block stamp should be examined carefully.

[/ QUOTE ]

From the Hemmings write-up:"On the mechanical side, Brian Henderson of Super Car Workshop, who had recommended Legendary when his own slate was full, examined the block's decks to see if the factory broach marks were intact; this was a means of determining if the code and VIN stampings were legit or recreations. Reportedly, despite initial skepticism, Henderson came away convinced that the engine was unmolested; because the CKT code is unique to an L89 Nova, this looks to be the only one known to exist.

After Henderson looked at the engine, Legendary had Active Engines in Mississauga, Ontario, go through the block again."

Looks like both "Active" and "Henderson" need to take a SECOND look !

L78steve

12-08-2009, 07:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I spent about 7 years researching this already... with that said, I'd say the heads were installed somewhere along the way, the piston/head combo ain't friendly with stock GM head gaskets... I can't explain the P-Plate though Lucy..

[/ QUOTE ]Instead of looking at the heads which could have been changed early on perhaps in error under warranty the POP and the block stamp should be examined carefully.

[/ QUOTE ]

From the Hemmings write-up:"On the mechanical side, Brian Henderson of Super Car Workshop, who had recommended Legendary when his own slate was full, examined the block's decks to see if the factory broach marks were intact; this was a means of determining if the code and VIN stampings were legit or recreations. Reportedly, despite initial skepticism, Henderson came away convinced that the engine was unmolested; because the CKT code is unique to an L89 Nova, this looks to be the only one known to exist.

After Henderson looked at the engine, Legendary had Active Engines in Mississauga, Ontario, go through the block again."

Looks like both "Active" and "Henderson" need to take a SECOND look !

[/ QUOTE ]I don't believe the CKT code is unique to the L89 Nova,just unique to 70 L89 but what is unique to a 70 L89 nova is the CKT block with with the Willow Run W in the VIN code.

lowmile

12-08-2009, 08:35 PM

Did I miss the picture of the unpainted engine stamp? Isn't that 50% of the documentation on this car. m

kwhizz

12-08-2009, 09:21 PM

From a Post over at Steves Nova Site......

Plus, I've seen original broached 854 blocks with no stampings, and they make paperwork. If the owner (s) had claimed the 842s had been replaced with 074s I might say OK. They really need to fine the original owner if possible before I'd suggest that it's real, and anybody lay out heavy money for it.

WILMASBOYL78

12-08-2009, 09:27 PM

Boy, Tibor's profile is right....he really is a numbers guy http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

ron67

12-09-2009, 04:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]

11.0 to 1 with 842's and 9.5 with the 074's....and a possibility of the Domes on the Stock L-78 Pistons hitting the Combustion Chamber in the Exhaust valve area....the Closed Chamber had a straight sidewall next to the exhaust valve which shrouded it......the open has a much larger chamber, but to unshroud the valve, they open up that area, but tapered it and that's where possible contact would occur........

[/ QUOTE ]

Can't pull the wool over his eyes! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

kwhizz

12-09-2009, 05:04 AM

I learned everything I know from Sammy........ http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/BruceRocks.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/HollyRocks.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/JeffSucksToo.gif

Salvatore

12-09-2009, 04:54 PM

Well that took all of about 5 minutes! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

kwhizz

12-11-2009, 02:47 AM

Dave...............Any Piston info yet??

Ken http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/BruceRocks.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/HollyRocks.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/JeffSucksToo.gif

WILMASBOYL78

12-11-2009, 03:13 AM

Kenny just....

http://www.yenko.net/attachments/432967-thumbnail.jpg

1968 nova ss

12-11-2009, 05:10 AM

Super nice resto.Ant info on the pistons?Chris

MosportGreen66

12-11-2009, 06:12 AM

Brian's number on his website in the sponsor section and Dave's number is posted in this thread. Why not take these conversations private. Isn't this how perfectly good cars get horrible reputations?

kwhizz

12-11-2009, 03:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Brian's number on his website in the sponsor section and Dave's number is posted in this thread. Why not take these conversations private. Isn't this how perfectly good cars get horrible reputations?

[/ QUOTE ]

The car is being Auctioned off as the 1 of 1 "Holy Grail" car........Is it too hard for Dave to answer 1 simple question??......... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

Ken http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/BruceRocks.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/HollyRocks.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/BruceRocks.gif

kwhizz

12-11-2009, 04:19 PM

"And" besides that......As far as I am concerned.....Brian is out of the picture....he explained his involvement in the car......Brian does not own or have any interest in the car.......Dave is the one that has to Shoulder the questions as he is the one who has a vested interest in the Sale.......

Ken http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/BruceRocks.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/HollyRocks.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/BruceRocks.gif

iluv69s

12-11-2009, 04:35 PM

Ive been out of the country for a while...so I figured Id check out this thread to see if the piston issue has been resolved....

..with all due respect to Brian, I realize he does not have to respond to any questions here, but by not answering the question about the pistons, it sure leaves a lot of doubt about this car.....

...I have no interest in buying the car, but I think this site is all about preserving the supercars 'and their integrity', correct?...I for one really hope this car is real just because of all the people out there that initially trash a car without even knowing for sure....I have learned to never say never.....How many years I heard that GM never made a Z-28 vert.

and no, Im not gonna call Brian privately...I feel that we all should know...what's the big secret????

Well Brian???? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

MultiMopars

12-12-2009, 01:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Brian's number on his website in the sponsor section and Dave's number is posted in this thread. Why not take these conversations private. Isn't this how perfectly good cars get horrible reputations?

[/ QUOTE ]

The car is being Auctioned off as the 1 of 1 "Holy Grail" car........Is it too hard for Dave to answer 1 simple question??......... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

Ken http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/BruceRocks.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/HollyRocks.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/BruceRocks.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I am sure this will rock a lot of peoples's boat, but I am going to say it anyway.

How about taking the suggestion in the post above yours of MosportGreen66

Why is it that there is always a certain member segment on these forums that feel the need to find something wrong with every car for sale posted? I know, many will tell you that they feel it is their duty to inform any potential buyers of what they THINK might be wrong. Did a potential buyer ASK you for this info?

In all of the pages of this post the head question has not been conclusively determined as to what is correct for this car, and it may never be. But isn't the BLOCK stamped with a code indicating it was an aluminum head engine? If so, what is the big arguement here if the guy has BOTH sets of heads, one normally accepted as correct and the others he says were on the car and thought to be original factory install?

Just because we frequent these forums and some are quite knowledgable, doesn't give us the right to post speculation on a car we have no vested interest in. If it is curosity only then contact the seller and ask you question rather than speculating and asking others to do the same.

As far a I know, no one has been appointed the car police on the Internet so why do some seem to feel they are deputized?

Just as MosportGreen66 said, this is how cars get unjustified reputations that can be hard to overcome and can cost a seller a sale, and a buyer to lose out on a car that they would have bought if they didn't buy into stuff like this that later is proven to untrue.

The bottom line is, if you are not a buyer for the car then don't make a bunch of unfounded speculative statements when one is up for sale unless you can PROVE there is a direct statement of untruth about the subject car that SHOULD be brought to the attention of the www.

kwhizz

12-12-2009, 02:09 AM

Darrel..............Obviously.....You don't understand what's going on here with the Piston/Head combination.....We are just questioning the "Info" that Dave... the owner posted on this "Public" forum, and there are some questions that should be answered to "Validate" "His" claims to having the 1 of 1 L89 Nova ever produced......The question isn't that hard......Instead of Dave answering the simple question..........."Crickets".......I'm sorry if you feel that Dave's car is getting undue scrutiny and he is asked a couple of questions about items that are very Important to Validate the 1 and only L89 Nova in the World..... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

Ken http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

69hurstSC

12-12-2009, 02:43 AM

Got to agree with iluv69s. If your a prospective buyer than the phone # is at your disposal. If not...

kwhizz

12-12-2009, 03:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Got to agree with iluv69s. If your a prospective buyer than the phone # is at your disposal. If not...

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for your opinion........But.....I think this is important enough for Historical reasons to the Nova world
to get some answers.....

Ken http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

70 Forest Green Zee

12-12-2009, 03:46 AM

Darrel, Dan, and any others who are unhappy with this thread....no one is twisting your arm to continue to read the comments here so bud out. Ken has some very valid points here and I for one think these questions need answering! If you claim to have a 1 of 1 car of any kind and are going to demand mega dollars for it, you better be ready, willing, and able to answer any and all questions asked and have the proof to back it up....and so far from what I've read our Mr. 1 of 1 L78 Nova has not!

You keep going Ken...I'm 100% with you!!!

92646

12-12-2009, 04:29 AM

I am sorry guys but Ken's questions are legitimate and he is being fair and objective when he is asking for answers. With more proof I would love to belive this car is real but I have not been seen enough information to overcome the doubts that I have.

Keith Tedford

12-12-2009, 04:43 AM

It was entirely possible to have different stuff installed during a warranty replacement. I know of an L78 Chevelle that had an L72 short block installed through warranty. It kind of helped to know the right people I guess. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

BUIZILLA

12-12-2009, 04:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
It was entirely possible to have different stuff installed during a warranty replacement. I know of an L78 Chevelle that had an L72 short block installed through warranty. It kind of helped to know the right people I guess. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ] I knew first hand of a 69 L78 Camaro that this was done as well.. guy was the Parts Mgr of the largest Chevy store here at the time.. they put another customer's Vette VIN # on the warranty repair ticket..

Kim_Howie

12-12-2009, 05:04 AM

I agree with Ken. Let it play out, lets see what we have?? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

Pulnaway

12-12-2009, 06:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Darrel, Dan, and any others who are unhappy with this thread....no one is twisting your arm to continue to read the comments here so bud out. Ken has some very valid points here and I for one think these questions need answering! If you claim to have a 1 of 1 car of any kind and are going to demand mega dollars for it, you better be ready, willing, and able to answer any and all questions asked and have the proof to back it up....and so far from what I've read our Mr. 1 of 1 L78 Nova has not!

You keep going Ken...I'm 100% with you!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow...This is the type of thing that gives sites a bad name. This tell me now or your car is fake attitude is sad. While I think there is nothing wrong with asking questions about about the car. They should not be asked like this. Some very well known, respected people have said the car is the real deal. Do you have the coin to buy the car? If so Mr 1 of 1 ? How disrespectful! That would be Dave to you, gave any prespective buyers his phone no# on the 4th page of this thread.

To dispel all myths and questions about my car, I can assure you that its real and the only one. I bought the car in 2003 from a guy in Long Island. I was looking for an L78 car when I came across my car. The original engine block, heads, intake, water pump, and carb as well as the original tranny and rear came with the car. During restoration at Legendary, they disassembled the engine in front of me, BKH, and Klutt to examine the broach marks and dates. All of the engine components were authenticated at that time as original and numbers matching. Brian examined all of the drivetrain components with magnifying glass as well as the POP. I wanted to know the truth if the car was real or not before I decided to proceed on a very expensive and lengthy restoration. all of the hidden sheet metal VINs were also found and examined. Every engine, drivetrain, and body component is correct. I have a list of every date and code on the car (and close up photos) which I will bring to the R & S auction. As far as contacting the owner on the POP; I tried several years to call all of the calvin whites in Hatboro and surrounding towns, but no luck. I also tried to contact the chevy dealer (stahl chevrolet in southampton) and had no luck. Once the car was examined in detail by Brian and Klutt and a full report was made I was convinced that my car was real and VERY VALUABLE. I showed the car in a few national concourse (Greenwich, Meadowbrook, and New England) events as well as vettefest twice and NNN nationals. Anyone who has met me at the shows and seen the car knows how spectacular this Nova is. I can be contacted via this site or call my cell if you have any questions or comments. The new owner who buys my car at R&S auction will be getting one of the rarest chevy supercars ever produced.
Dave 201-965-5563

lowmile

12-12-2009, 06:53 AM

I'm with Ken and Kim on this one. "To dispel all myths and questions about my car, I can assure you that ITS REAL AND THE ONLY ONE." I was wondering how this statement could be verified? If I came on this site and said I was Elvis wouldn't I be expected to prove it? m

Smokey

12-12-2009, 07:36 AM

Scott-

Do you Guarantee in writing that the car is real?

Pulnaway

12-12-2009, 08:07 AM

Why, are you a buyer? Brian...a well respected person and restorer has looked at the car/ motor and in his opinion it is real! I make no claim to the cars being legit or not! Why is it so hard for people to ask questions in a respectful maner? I think it would be great to have the answers to the head # question, but it should be asked in a respctful maner if you want a responce. I bet that if this thread was worded better, he would still be here answering questions. Who Here is the person to varify this car? If Dave gives you the information are you the person? Since Brian vouches for this car and he is a noted restorer and member of the site, is he not good enough? If I were a buyer for this car I for one would not mis a beat calling Brian!

[ QUOTE ]
This is what I found when looking at the car for Dave. I met Dave at Legendary to inspect the car. The car was at that time already apart, and the body was in the paint booth. The entire drive train was out of the car. Some of the parts were already apart for restoration. The engine itself was still intact. Dave brought all his documentation along, and he did a great deal of his own research. He had GM documents with the engine code I believe he got from Fran Preve. He had factory doc's like the POP. Peter Klutt among others examined the POP comparing it to other 70' POPs that Klutt had. There was NOTHING to indicate that the POP was not legit. It matched all the other ones on hand that day. From the glue to the fonts, it was for all we could tell authentic to the car. All the other codes matched the car 100%. The engine was on a stand and had yet to be taken apart. The Legendary Camera Crew was on hand to see EXACTLY what we found that day. Legendary's lead guys were present along with Klutt as the engine was taken apart. The pad itself had some light surface rust. There was no evidence of any step down on the pad from a previous decking. The heads were removed to see if indeed the broach marks extended from one side to the other, and they did. From all accounts it looked to be untouched and real. The heads were present and the dates noted. There was nothing to indicate the car was pieced together. The documents looked right, as did the block. Since there is not another pad like this to even match up too, it is impossible to tell what the others look like. Could it have been faked? I guess anything is possible, but it looked right. If it is wrong, it is exceptional. The original parts all had pitting and wear. Nothing was CRISP. I think the car is legit. If you are a serious player on the car, inspect it yourself. Dave came off to me as an honest guy. The car was already deep into the resto at Legendary when I was asked to look at it. There was no turning back at that point...BKH

[/ QUOTE ]

Pulnaway

12-12-2009, 09:11 AM

I do want to add that the whole reason I like this site is because there is alot of musclecar knoledge here. We all would like to know when a car is real or not, but it must be done with respect if you want to get to the bottom of it. Why would someone not talk with Brian? He is liked and respected and has no vested interest in the car.

MultiMopars

12-12-2009, 10:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Darrel..............Obviously.....You don't understand what's going on here with the Piston/Head combination.....We are just questioning the "Info" that Dave... the owner posted on this "Public" forum, and there are some questions that should be answered to "Validate" "His" claims to having the 1 of 1 L89 Nova ever produced......The question isn't that hard......Instead of Dave answering the simple question..........."Crickets".......I'm sorry if you feel that Dave's car is getting undue scrutiny and he is asked a couple of questions about items that are very Important to Validate the 1 and only L89 Nova in the World..... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

Ken http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I have read every word of every page of this thread, I understand COMPLETELY what is being discuss and what your questions are. No one is answering it here, so WHY don't you simply pick up the phone and call the owner?

BUIZILLA

12-12-2009, 03:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
To dispel all myths and questions about my car, I can assure you that its real and the only one.

[/ QUOTE ] how can you assure us all of this? are you giving a money back guarantee?

[ QUOTE ]
The original engine block, heads, intake, water pump, and carb as well as the original tranny and rear came with the car. During restoration at Legendary, they disassembled the engine in front of me, BKH, and Klutt to examine the broach marks and dates. All of the engine components were authenticated at that time as original and numbers matching.

then where are the piston pictures? if a magnifying glass was used to authenticate, then these should be available? I don't see where Ken, or anyone else, was disrespectful whatsoever here.... I also don't think a backdoor phone call is going to solve anything either.. a hidden VIN check for a body, and everything else was done on the engine? but the head and piston combo wasn't done, so why the avoidance of a simple question? if your going to put this thing out for PUBLIC SALE then it's originality confirmation should be PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE. Anything less than that is conjecture. NOBODY has offered any proof that this SPECIFIC engine was in fact assembled at Tonawanda with those heads, or sold new with those heads. Nor is there ANY paperwork from new showing an L89 build/sale. L78/L89 parts found now, don't make it an L89 sale from new. I still maintain the heads were put on after the sale, until such time as proof is shown otherwise. Those heads could have been installed after the original sale, so that doesn't make it a REAL L89 car does it???? nopers, not at all. Another person posted earlier that he tracked down the *possible* original owner already, so what's the delay in contacting him? if it was my car, I would have been at his doorstep the next day, even if it cost me 10k to find him...

my final respectful question is this>>> did Brian or anybody at Legendary hear the engine run, or drive the car before dissasembly??

just my respectful .02

JH

kwhizz

12-12-2009, 04:39 PM

Again.......With respect to everyone here,I don't see why this is getting so complicated......Dave said ...."To dispel all myths and questions about my car, I can assure you that its real and the only one."
Let's keep this very simple.......Dave said he could "Assure" us the car was real.....That's all we are doing is asking a couple of questions to validate his claim......
Question #1....Provide GM Piston Part# for the 396 Block/074 Head combo........
Question #2....If as you state..you bought a second set of Date coded 074 heads from 427king to replace the originals because "They were the value of the Car" and not wanting to take a chance of damaging them in driving the car around......Are the original heads going to be included with the sale of the car??
Two simple questions.........As Judge Judy would say....These are the simple ones....they may get more difficult later......

Again......Dave said he could "Assure" us that this is the only one in the "World".....Two simple "Respectful" questions........

Ken

Kim_Howie

12-12-2009, 05:52 PM

When I found the 67 Yenko I had awhile back, I did three things #1 pic of the VIN# #2 pic of the trim tag. #3 pic of the hidden VIN#. That is how you show a car is real!! I have owned more COPO Gibb cars than anybody. I have found more of them than anybody. I bought my first one in 1989. I knew about the Gibb novas before most people had even hear of Fred Gibb. My point is this,in the 30 years I have never found a L-89 nova yet. NO disrespect just asking questions.

Keith Tedford

12-12-2009, 06:30 PM

How do you really document any car with absolute certainty. With our COPO Chevelle, the paperwork is just that, paperwork. It just says that a given VIN came with such and such options. Same with the bill of sale. With the body completely stripped, you can see that the stamped VIN section hasn't been welded into another body. The broach marks on the deck surface and the number stamps can pretty well verify the block and nothing else. The stampings on the transmission can probably be duplicated on an unstamped case. The KQ on the rearend would be rather hard to duplicate. That doesn't leave a whole lot that anyone can be absolutely sure of. With our 396 car having had a dozen or so previous owners, I wouldn't even hazard a guess as to what is original beyond the above mentioned. When buying any car, about the best you can do is put ALL the available information together and draw your own conclusions as to value.
I've gone through the frustration of owning a car like this. Back in the '80s, at swap meets, I have had people turn in mid conversation and walk away when I mentioned having a factory 427 Chevelle. They thought they were getting a line of BS. No matter, I owned the car from new and knew what I had. Good luck with the car.

iluv69s

12-12-2009, 08:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I have owned more COPO Gibb cars than anybody.

[/ QUOTE ]

...except Fred himself !!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

12-12-2009, 09:16 PM

Hi folks. Maybe I can add my own 2.5 cents (inflation) worth. The following might not be earth shattering, but it might shed a kernel of info on the subject. As many of you know, in order to compete in NHRA Stock (and Super Stock) classes, the specific car as well as specific engine combinations have to be presented to the NHRA for acceptance by the respective factories. From the vintage Chevy perspective, that job fell in the hands of Product Promotion (Vince Piggins office). Now it's no secret certain liberties were taken (then and now) by the Detroit manufacturers so that their own production cars would be advantageously classified and have the best possible hardware for the class. It was called "being competitive". Plenty of interesting combinations (and equally interesting factory horsepower ratings) came out of this. 335 (rated) horsepower 428 Cobra Jets, LS6-powered 1971 Chevelles, any number of goofy Max Wedge cars and so on. They all more or less met the letter of the rules, at least when they were presented to the NHRA.

But in spite of these liberties - and some were considerable, I can't find a factory produced aluminum head 1970 396 (402) combination within the NHRA classification guide, especially one with 074 heads. As a note, the paperwork for the 1970 Chevrolet model year was originally issued on 23 March 1970, and revised a couple of times in 1970, so there would have been plenty of opportunity to include "rare" combinations. Certainly, the 401 casting (recent) replacement aluminum heads are listed, but they don't enter our discussion.

So I guess the point is, even if Chevy made something as rare as none of none, it was sometimes included in the NHRA Classification Guide. But the topic one of one combination is not.

I agree with many of you. The real key is the use of open chamber heads on this particular engine. As far as using 074 open chamber heads on a closed chamber 396, I sincerely doubt Chevy would have done that, even on a bad day. I've even done the open chamber head swap on a closed chamber piston engine decades ago. As others have pointed out those parts didn't really like each other. Amongst other things, it required the thickest head gasket I could find. My math shows, even in a perfect world with incredibly tight blueprint tolerances a 10:1 compression ratio would pretty much the most one could expect (and in the real world, I suspect a C/R of 9.5:1 or less would have been more realistic). It would have been a dog to drive I'm sure, at least in comparison to cars equipped with more standard 396-375 engines.

On the other hand, it'd be a bad ass day two car with an L88 or LS7 shortblock underneath those 074 heads.

Wayne Scraba

69hurstSC

12-12-2009, 09:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
How do you really document any car with absolute certainty. With our COPO Chevelle, the paperwork is just that, paperwork. It just says that a given VIN came with such and such options. Same with the bill of sale. With the body completely stripped, you can see that the stamped VIN section hasn't been welded into another body. The broach marks on the deck surface and the number stamps can pretty well verify the block and nothing else. The stampings on the transmission can probably be duplicated on an unstamped case. The KQ on the rearend would be rather hard to duplicate. That doesn't leave a whole lot that anyone can be absolutely sure of. With our 396 car having had a dozen or so previous owners, I wouldn't even hazard a guess as to what is original beyond the above mentioned. When buying any car, about the best you can do is put ALL the available information together and draw your own conclusions as to value.
I've gone through the frustration of owning a car like this. Back in the '80s, at swap meets, I have had people turn in mid conversation and walk away when I mentioned having a factory 427 Chevelle. They thought they were getting a line of BS. No matter, I owned the car from new and knew what I had. Good luck with the car.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well stated. Even if the original owner was located and vouched for the car there would still be speculation. Its just the nature of humans. I know where Hayden Proffitt's first 64 Race Hemi is located. It quite possibly could be the 1st ever 426 Hemi car (minus the 2 test mules and predating the 2%ers) but his "arrangement" with Chrysler would leave most people scratching their heads and shaking them in disbelief.

MultiMopars

12-12-2009, 10:50 PM

OK, someone tell me what I am missing here and why everyone is still questioning this car?

1. The experts have looked at this car and state that the hidden numbers, POP, V.I.N., and engine stampings all match and are original. It has the CKT code which indicates it is an L89 engine.

2. I understand there is some question as to the part number of the heads. So what, the car has the correct code to be an aluminum head car. Who really cares which heads it came with or not. If it were me I would take the path of least resistence and buy another ACCEPTABLE set of heads for the car, and give the new buyer both sets and let him make his own decision.

Below are all copies and pastes from this thread and links included in it. I have bolded the areas that to me are conclusive proof based on the experts opinions. With this in mind it seems to me the people here that continue to question this car are basiclly calling into question the testamony of the experts. Lets cut the crap, step up and blurt out what you REALLY think if you can live with the concequences of having egg on your face later.

It took some digging, but Frendel was finally able to find a source that confirmed the availability of the L89 in the Nova and, more specifically, the CKT-code block as designating an L89 meant for a Nova. Somewhat reassured that the car was legit, Frendel took a leap of faith and gave the man his money. "For what he wanted, if the car was real, I knew it would be worth a whole lot more; if it was only a standard L78 car, I was only paying a little bit over market. It was worth the gamble," says Frendel of his decision.

On the mechanical side, Brian Henderson of Super Car Workshop, who had recommended Legendary when his own slate was full, examined the block's decks to see if the factory broach marks were intact; this was a means of determining if the code and VIN stampings were legit or recreations. Reportedly, despite initial skepticism, Henderson came away convinced that the engine was unmolested; because the CKT code is unique to an L89 Nova, this looks to be the only one known to exist.

This is what I found when looking at the car for Dave. I met Dave at Legendary to inspect the car. The car was at that time already apart, and the body was in the paint booth. The entire drive train was out of the car. Some of the parts were already apart for restoration. The engine itself was still intact. Dave brought all his documentation along, and he did a great deal of his own research. He had GM documents with the engine code I believe he got from Fran Preve. He had factory doc's like the POP. Peter Klutt among others examined the POP comparing it to other 70' POPs that Klutt had. There was NOTHING to indicate that the POP was not legit. It matched all the other ones on hand that day. From the glue to the fonts, it was for all we could tell authentic to the car. All the other codes matched the car 100%. The engine was on a stand and had yet to be taken apart. The Legendary Camera Crew was on hand to see EXACTLY what we found that day. Legendary's lead guys were present along with Klutt as the engine was taken apart. The pad itself had some light surface rust. There was no evidence of any step down on the pad from a previous decking. The heads were removed to see if indeed the broach marks extended from one side to the other, and they did. From all accounts it looked to be untouched and real. The heads were present and the dates noted. There was nothing to indicate the car was pieced together. The documents looked right, as did the block. Since there is not another pad like this to even match up too, it is impossible to tell what the others look like. Could it have been faked? I guess anything is possible, but it looked right. If it is wrong, it is exceptional. The original parts all had pitting and wear. Nothing was CRISP. I think the car is legit. If you are a serious player on the car, inspect it yourself. Dave came off to me as an honest guy. The car was already deep into the resto at Legendary when I was asked to look at it. There was no turning back at that point...BKH

12-12-2009, 11:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
OK, someone tell me what I am missing here and why everyone is still questioning this car?

I believe what you're missing is, there was no GM production or factory service piston or head gasket available to allow the open chamber 074 heads to work satisfactorily on a 375 HP 396 or 402 engine.

Wayne Scraba

Kim_Howie

12-12-2009, 11:28 PM

I guess we can all agree to disagree. I have said my part. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

Kim_Howie

12-12-2009, 11:30 PM

Hey Wayne, been along time. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

kwhizz

12-12-2009, 11:34 PM

"And" as Dave stated......the "Original" 074 heads were the "Value" of the car.........."And" he didn't want to Damage them in use so he swapped them out........"And"......the Winters Snowflake was missing off the original heads that were supposedly removed for the first time at Legendary ???????????Hummm!!!......."And".............O.J. is Innocent........But.........We respect your "Opinion"

Ken http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

MultiMopars

12-12-2009, 11:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
OK, someone tell me what I am missing here and why everyone is still questioning this car?

I believe what you're missing is, there was no GM production or factory service piston or head gasket available to allow the open chamber 074 heads to work satisfactorily on a 375 HP 396 or 402 engine.

Wayne Scraba

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I didn't miss that in the thread, and there are all kinds of "theories" stated here about all of that.

You can see that I am the kind of guy that is to the point and ask direct questions. Why hasn't anyone bothered to pick up the phone and call the owner and ask him directly about all of this? It seems everyone EXPECTS the owner to be sitting on his computer waiting to respond to every neighsayers comments.

Maybe you missed this, why is it that no one will respond DIRECTLY to this?

1. The experts have looked at this car and state that the hidden numbers, POP, V.I.N., and engine stampings all match and are original. It has the CKT code which indicates it is an L89 engine.

2. I understand there is some question as to the part number of the heads. So what, the car has the correct code to be an aluminum head car. Who really cares which heads it came with or not. If it were me I would take the path of least resistence and buy another ACCEPTABLE set of heads for the car, and give the new buyer both sets and let him make his own decision.

Salvatore

12-13-2009, 12:00 AM

I think one of the owners wanted to run regular or unleaded gas so they changed the heads. Didn't need anymore of this http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

Steve Shauger

12-13-2009, 12:17 AM

It is my understanding that the known L89 70 chevelles that have been authenticated indeed had the 842 heads (70 Chevelle guys please chime in. Mr70 you made mention of first hand information regarding a 70 L89 chevelle well???).

The 842 head are the correct heads if the pistons were the same as the L78, which is the conventional thinking. Through the years head damage, and/or swaps could easily have occurred. I am staying open minded at this point.

427.060

12-13-2009, 01:03 AM

Is the CKT code also used for the L-89 Chevelles?
James

Mr.Nickey Nova

12-13-2009, 03:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Is the CKT code also used for the L-89 Chevelles?
James

[/ QUOTE ]
That is the code for a L89 Chevelle.According to the Chevy By The Numbers book,CKT was listed for Chevelles only,not for Novas or Camaros,but i guess it was still possible to have installed in those cars.

nova7579

12-13-2009, 04:19 AM

According to the October 1970 parts book I have it lists on page 41....CKT is manual trans and aluminum head for Nova. It also lists on page 40...CKP is Turbo 400 and aluminum head for a Chevelle and CKT is the code for 375HP manual Chevelle. I just hope that no one comes up with a CKU Nova....manual trans, alum head, and HD clutch. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Brian

1968 nova ss

12-13-2009, 06:55 AM

Wow,the energizer thread;it keep going and going.I wonder what Wayne Bushey thought are on this car?Chris

kwhizz

12-13-2009, 04:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Again.......With respect to everyone here,I don't see why this is getting so complicated......Dave said ...."To dispel all myths and questions about my car, I can assure you that its real and the only one."
Let's keep this very simple.......Dave said he could "Assure" us the car was real.....That's all we are doing is asking a couple of questions to validate his claim......
Question #1....Provide GM Piston Part# for the 396 Block/074 Head combo........
Question #2....If as you state..you bought a second set of Date coded 074 heads from 427king to replace the originals because "They were the value of the Car" and not wanting to take a chance of damaging them in driving the car around......Are the original heads going to be included with the sale of the car??
Two simple questions.........As Judge Judy would say....These are the simple ones....they may get more difficult later......

Again......Dave said he could "Assure" us that this is the only one in the "World".....Two simple "Respectful" questions........

Ken

[/ QUOTE ]

"Crickets Chirping"..........Dave......Two simple questions......

There are also others that have Judged Daves car at the Nova Nat's, Vettefest, etc......Should their opinions have been "Certified and Documented" to provide addition "Validation" for the car.......The Judges at the Nova Nationals have just as much or more knowledge as Brian about Novas and a lot more that Klutt......Yet....the Judging results are never mentioned.........Hummm!!

Again.......Dave........you said we could be assured the car was real.........Just a couple of "Simple"... "Logical"....and "Respectful" questions to validate the facts...........

Ken

WILMASBOYL78

12-13-2009, 06:00 PM

Hey Ken, how's the weather in Cheeseland...must be kind of cold...but don't worry, your posts keep everything "warmed up".

me http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

Mr70

12-13-2009, 08:31 PM

All 3 1970 L-89 Chevelle owners said theirs came with #842 heads,and 375 HP pistons-(#3969991),originally.

kwhizz

12-18-2009, 01:13 AM

"Crickets Chirping"...........

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/BruceRocks.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/HollyRocks.gif

wheelhop

12-18-2009, 01:27 AM

Ken, the crickets are dead!!

WILMASBOYL78

12-18-2009, 01:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Ken, the crickets are dead!!

[/ QUOTE ]

No...they're frozen in Nu Yawk http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

1968 nova ss

12-18-2009, 04:57 AM

chirp,chirp,chirp.

resto4u

12-18-2009, 05:09 AM

"the truth will set you free" I am sure things will get interesting just before the auction or after.

kwhizz

12-18-2009, 05:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
"the truth will set you free" I am sure things will get interesting just before the auction or after.

[/ QUOTE ]

"And"......The questions are going to get a lot harder........So.......How are they going to be answered when the simple ones can't.....or don't want to be....

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/BruceRocks.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/HollyRocks.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/JeffSucksToo.gif

70 Forest Green Zee

12-18-2009, 05:29 AM

frogs croaking....... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

iluv69s

12-18-2009, 06:10 AM

when is the auction?

copo-2

12-18-2009, 06:40 AM

Just a couple of questions?

(1) When did the Nova start sharing the same suffix code with the Chevelle?

(2) When was production stopped on the #842 heads?

Mr.Nickey Nova

12-18-2009, 11:22 PM

According to the (Chevy By The Numbers) book,1970 was when they started to share the same suffix codes between the Chevelle,Camaro and Nova.I thought the same thing myself and looked into it a little further.

67 Nova Boy

12-21-2009, 04:01 AM

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1970-CHEV...=item518f40b92b (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1970-CHEVY-NOVA-SS-396-375-L89-ORIGINAL-2008-Article_W0QQitemZ350295734571QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMo tors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item518f40b9 2b)

Here is the car in an artical on eBay.

Dave
67 Nova Boy

Carleen

12-21-2009, 04:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is the CKT code also used for the L-89 Chevelles?
James

[/ QUOTE ]
That is the code for a L89 Chevelle.According to the Chevy By The Numbers book,CKT was listed for Chevelles only,not for Novas or Camaros,but i guess it was still possible to have installed in those cars.

[/ QUOTE ]

From http://www.nastyz28.com/gm-chevy-codes/chevy-engine-codes-suffix-12.php

CKP 1970 Nova 396 375 TH L-89 SHP
CKP 1970 Chevelle 396 375 TH L-89 SHP, alum hd
CKQ 1970 Chevelle 396 375 Mt L-78 SHP
CKQ 1970 Nova 396 375 Mt L-78 SHP
CKR 1970 Chevelle 402 330 4sp LS-3
CKS 1970 Chevelle 402 330 4sp LS-3 HD clutch
CKT 1970 Chevy II 396 375 Mt L-89 SHP
CKT 1970 Chevelle 396 375 Mt L-89 SHP
CKU 1970 Chevelle 396 375 Mt L-89 SHP
CKU 1970 Chevy II 396 375 Mt L-89 SHP

427.060

12-21-2009, 05:28 AM

Niclas, Thanks. That is the same info that I have. What I can't figure out is why others have said that CKT is a L-89 Nova only code.
James

MultiMopars

12-21-2009, 05:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is the CKT code also used for the L-89 Chevelles?
James

[/ QUOTE ]
That is the code for a L89 Chevelle.According to the Chevy By The Numbers book,CKT was listed for Chevelles only,not for Novas or Camaros,but i guess it was still possible to have installed in those cars.

[/ QUOTE ]

From http://www.nastyz28.com/gm-chevy-codes/chevy-engine-codes-suffix-12.php

CKP 1970 Nova 396 375 TH L-89 SHP
CKP 1970 Chevelle 396 375 TH L-89 SHP, alum hd
CKQ 1970 Chevelle 396 375 Mt L-78 SHP
CKQ 1970 Nova 396 375 Mt L-78 SHP
CKR 1970 Chevelle 402 330 4sp LS-3
CKS 1970 Chevelle 402 330 4sp LS-3 HD clutch
CKT 1970 Chevy II 396 375 Mt L-89 SHP
CKT 1970 Chevelle 396 375 Mt L-89 SHP
CKU 1970 Chevelle 396 375 Mt L-89 SHP
CKU 1970 Chevy II 396 375 Mt L-89 SHP

[/ QUOTE ]

What is this that I bolded?

x Baldwin Motion

12-21-2009, 05:55 AM

CKP 1970 Nova 396 375 TH L-89 SHP
CKP 1970 Chevelle 396 375 TH L-89 SHP, alum hd
CKQ 1970 Chevelle 396 375 Mt L-78 SHP
CKQ 1970 Nova 396 375 Mt L-78 SHP
CKR 1970 Chevelle 402 330 4sp LS-3
CKS 1970 Chevelle 402 330 4sp LS-3 HD clutch
CKT 1970 Chevy II 396 375 Mt L-89 SHP
CKT 1970 Chevelle 396 375 Mt L-89 SHP
CKU 1970 Chevelle 396 375 Mt L-89 SHP
CKU 1970 Chevy II 396 375 Mt L-89 SHP

[/ QUOTE ]

What is this that I bolded?

[/ QUOTE ]

Chevy II, which after 1968 was referred to as a Nova by most.

MultiMopars

12-21-2009, 08:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]

CKP 1970 Nova 396 375 TH L-89 SHP
CKP 1970 Chevelle 396 375 TH L-89 SHP, alum hd
CKQ 1970 Chevelle 396 375 Mt L-78 SHP
CKQ 1970 Nova 396 375 Mt L-78 SHP
CKR 1970 Chevelle 402 330 4sp LS-3
CKS 1970 Chevelle 402 330 4sp LS-3 HD clutch
CKT 1970 Chevy II 396 375 Mt L-89 SHP
CKT 1970 Chevelle 396 375 Mt L-89 SHP
CKU 1970 Chevelle 396 375 Mt L-89 SHP
CKU 1970 Chevy II 396 375 Mt L-89 SHP

[/ QUOTE ]

What is this that I bolded?

[/ QUOTE ]

Chevy II, which after 1968 was referred to as a Nova by most.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I know. The reason I showed it is because the poster was stating that the code was a Chevelle code ONLY but posted the list that show s the same code for the ChevyII or Nova.

Carleen

12-21-2009, 02:32 PM

I just wanted to show that Chevelle and Nova has same code

WILMASBOYL78

12-21-2009, 04:53 PM

This post leaves out the 2 most common codes for the L78 motor...CKO(4spd) and CTY(TH400).......I have never seen a CKQ HD clutch code on any Nova. But then, there's lots of stuff I haven't seen.

wilma http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

x Baldwin Motion

12-22-2009, 01:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Yes I know. The reason I showed it is because the poster was stating that the code was a Chevelle code ONLY but posted the list that show s the same code for the ChevyII or Nova.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's just two different posts combined with two different sources showing that two sets of "facts in print" exist. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

kwhizz

12-22-2009, 01:45 AM

Dave said he could "Assure" us that the car is real.....yet hasn't responded to the two simple questions that were asked a couple of weeks ago........I'm sure he and others wish this thread would go away, but...His non-response to the questions either show that he doesn't want to respond......or...Can't......
"Again"....this is Nova "History".......But.....It seems that `he just wants us to take his word for it.....I'm sure if the guy's at Legendary fully understood the Head issue they might have questioned things a little more before claiming it as the only one in existance ....
Dave seems to be comfortable with the "Lack of verifiable History" and other documented items that could have doctored at some time in the cars past......I'm sure with the money that was spent on the resto was done in good faith.......But.......That doesn't validate or verify the cars true pedigree..........

Ken http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/BruceRocks.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/HollyRocks.gif

Mr.Nickey Nova

12-22-2009, 04:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

CKP 1970 Nova 396 375 TH L-89 SHP
CKP 1970 Chevelle 396 375 TH L-89 SHP, alum hd
CKQ 1970 Chevelle 396 375 Mt L-78 SHP
CKQ 1970 Nova 396 375 Mt L-78 SHP
CKR 1970 Chevelle 402 330 4sp LS-3
CKS 1970 Chevelle 402 330 4sp LS-3 HD clutch
CKT 1970 Chevy II 396 375 Mt L-89 SHP
CKT 1970 Chevelle 396 375 Mt L-89 SHP
CKU 1970 Chevelle 396 375 Mt L-89 SHP
CKU 1970 Chevy II 396 375 Mt L-89 SHP

[/ QUOTE ]

What is this that I bolded?

[/ QUOTE ]

Chevy II, which after 1968 was referred to as a Nova by most.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I know. The reason I showed it is because the poster was stating that the code was a Chevelle code ONLY but posted the list that show s the same code for the ChevyII or Nova.

[/ QUOTE ]
Next time you go to a book store,see if they have a (Chevy By The Numbers)book and take a look in it.What you will find is CKT code is listed under Chevelle and not Camaro or Nova.All the other codes that they share are listed,but not the L89 code.That might explain why 18 1970 Chevelles were built with the L89 option per(MR70) and maybe one of one Nova.How many Camaros do you think were built??

Smokey

12-22-2009, 07:26 AM

Makes one wish that we could access the records that Fran Preves had.

MultiMopars

12-22-2009, 08:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Dave said he could "Assure" us that the car is real.....yet hasn't responded to the two simple questions that were asked a couple of weeks ago........I'm sure he and others wish this thread would go away, but...His non-response to the questions either show that he doesn't want to respond......or...Can't......
"Again"....this is Nova "History".......But.....It seems that `he just wants us to take his word for it.....I'm sure if the guy's at Legendary fully understood the Head issue they might have questioned things a little more before claiming it as the only one in existance ....
Dave seems to be comfortable with the "Lack of verifiable History" and other documented items that could have doctored at some time in the cars past......I'm sure with the money that was spent on the resto was done in good faith.......But.......That doesn't validate or verify the cars true pedigree..........

Ken http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/BruceRocks.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/HollyRocks.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I get the fact that you and others here are interested in all of this from a historial stand point and want to learn or confirm certain aspects. However, you need to understand that some sellers/owners don't necessarily share all of your passion or prefer to keep some of their business private. Continuing to post your dismay with the absence of the seller isn't going to get you anywhere. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, why don't you contact the seller personally to satisfy yourself?

Pulnaway

12-22-2009, 09:16 AM

Darryl, I have contacted Dave and asked all of the relevent questions. Fact is he could not answer them or would nor answer them?...NOT ONE! I for one like to think that people are upfront and truthful...I did not leave our conversation feeling this way.

MultiMopars

12-22-2009, 09:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Darryl, I have contacted Dave and asked all of the relevent questions. Fact is he could not answer them or would nor answer them?...NOT ONE! I for one like to think that people are upfront and truthful...I did not leave our conversation feeling this way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, it is nice to see that someone has at least talked to ONE of the owners of this car.

In reading this thread I see where someone questioned
Dave(?) about a parts wanted ad for a set of date coded heads that apparently they suspect may have ended up on this car?
If he made a mistake with the heads and has since sold the car, and it is for sale again I doubt that anyone is going to get him to comment on something he has already sold. Maybe the current owner has gotten to the bottom of this? That is the person that has to defend the car now to any potential buyer if this is of a concern to them.

The car is 40 years old, thing happen to original parts. Maybe he (Dave) was looking for heads that he thought would be correct for the car which may not have been?

I posted this back on page 14:

"I understand there is some question as to the part number of the heads. So what, the car has the correct code to be an aluminum head car. Who really cares which heads it came with or not. If it were me I would take the path of least resistence and buy another ACCEPTABLE set of heads for the car, and give the new buyer both sets and let him make his own decision."

The point being, yes maybe it has the wrong heads and some were of the impression that it came from the factory that way. If that is wrong then it simply needs a different set of heads to make it "right" as the supposed original block with V.I.N. shows the car to be an original aluminum head car.

Pulnaway

12-22-2009, 11:04 AM

Darryl, Dave Frendel is the one who purched the the car, inquired about the heads, had the car restored and now has the car for sale.
With that being said, I have gone back and re-read all of the information on this car. This is from the Hemmings artical on the car.

Rather than dive into a full resto right away, Frendel opted to simply redo the engine and use the Nova. "I drove it for two years with no door panels, no package tray--the interior was a real rat's nest." Despite this, the car's body was actually fairly nice, with no visible rust and a decent black paint job, which turned out to be the Nova's original color.

After having some fun with the car, Frendel decided the time had come to do a proper restoration, and was referred to Legendary Motorcar Company in Ontario, Canada. He'd seen Legendary on the cable TV show Dreamcar Garage, so he made the call. Soon after, the Nova was on its way to the Great White North

This is from Daves post here on the 4th page.

The original engine block, heads, intake, water pump, and carb as well as the original tranny and rear came with the car. During restoration at Legendary, they disassembled the engine in front of me, BKH, and Klutt to examine the broach marks and dates.

This engine had already been rebuilt and driven for yrs by Dave before Brian and Klutt ever dis-assembled it!

Dave knew what would be found since he had already had the motor redone! Sounds like to me that the engine came to him in parts and he had the engine rebuilt using the heads that came with the purchase of the car.

If the car is the real deal,then the value has been hurt by using heads that had no factory piston that would work with them.

Steve Shauger

12-22-2009, 04:48 PM

This debate has been beaten to death. The present owner has only owned the car for the last few years and can offer very little information regarding the cars history prior to his ownership. It's obvious that the car if an L89 has incorrect heads. He states this is the configuration of the engine when he purchased the car, and was told they were original.

Dave made some statements that he believed to be accurate. He was NOT there and the car was 30 plus years old before he purchased the vehicle. Only the original owner knows the story.

I think we gotten everyones take on this issue at this point. Unless something new comes to light, lets put this to rest, as the issues with this car have been restated multiple times.

m22mike

12-22-2009, 05:18 PM

Thank you Steve.

kwhizz

12-22-2009, 07:01 PM

Then.....Should it be represented and sold as the 1 of 1 Novas in the World..........Just a question??

Ken

MultiMopars

12-23-2009, 12:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Darryl, Dave Frendel is the one who purched the the car, inquired about the heads, had the car restored and now has the car for sale.
With that being said, I have gone back and re-read all of the information on this car. This is from the Hemmings artical on the car.

Rather than dive into a full resto right away, Frendel opted to simply redo the engine and use the Nova. "I drove it for two years with no door panels, no package tray--the interior was a real rat's nest." Despite this, the car's body was actually fairly nice, with no visible rust and a decent black paint job, which turned out to be the Nova's original color.

After having some fun with the car, Frendel decided the time had come to do a proper restoration, and was referred to Legendary Motorcar Company in Ontario, Canada. He'd seen Legendary on the cable TV show Dreamcar Garage, so he made the call. Soon after, the Nova was on its way to the Great White North

This is from Daves post here on the 4th page.

The original engine block, heads, intake, water pump, and carb as well as the original tranny and rear came with the car. During restoration at Legendary, they disassembled the engine in front of me, BKH, and Klutt to examine the broach marks and dates.

This engine had already been rebuilt and driven for yrs by Dave before Brian and Klutt ever dis-assembled it!

Dave knew what would be found since he had already had the motor redone! Sounds like to me that the engine came to him in parts and he had the engine rebuilt using the heads that came with the purchase of the car.

If the car is the real deal,then the value has been hurt by using heads that had no factory piston that would work with them.

[/ QUOTE ]

First, let me say that somehow back in the early pages of this thread I got the idea that the current seller of the car was someone that Dave sold the car to. I APOLOGIZE for any confusion this may have created for anyone other than myself. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Based on what you and Dave have stated above it is VERY possible that the heads were replaced/provided with the engine in pieces at sometime prior to Dave's ownership. We all seem to forget that these aluminum heads were very prone to cracking and warping if the engine was engine overheated, and we all know overheating Big blocks was quite common. Very logical reason for the original heads to be MIA.
It sounds to me from the comments of the "experts" that looked at the car when the engine was taken apart, pretty much gave it a clean bill of health regarding the broching marks and stampings on the block that match the cars V.I.N.

So, once again, It sounds to me like the car is a true L89 with the wrong heads, which is not THAT big a deal to correct with a different set. Certainly not something to keep ME from buying the car if I were a buyer for it. At this point I have seen no evidence that the pistons or type were changed from an original type. The heads used would work but would reduce the compression. If this is the case then the correct heads would remedy this. If not, then the pistons would have to be changed creating additional expense. However this again would not bother me but WOULD be reflected in my offer or bid, but probably not by much. If you want the car where are you going to find another for sale?

As far as it being a 1 of 1, I guess that remains to be seen until documentation of another shows up. I think this thread has provided proof that they WERE available. Does anyone know of another?

BTW, i voted for #3.