Survivors - Where is the line drawn?

[Shevelle]

I'm curious as to what the opinions are as to what classifies a car as a "Survivor". Beyond the obvious criteria such as original engine, trans, rear, paint, interior. What about the other components, such as shocks, batteries, hoses, belts, exhaust, tires...things that might require replacement over the years. For example, if a car is completely original but the exhaust needs to be replaced and that is done with correct replacement such as Gardner, or the battery needs to be replaced and it is done with a Restoration battery, or the tires....is it no longer a survivor? What about maintenance? I see survivor cars that look like they have never seen a car wash or vacuum cleaner...or the engine compartment has never been dusted off or wiped clean. If the car has been kept clean, nicks in the paint touched up, the engine compartment detailed, rips or tears in the upholstery repaired, does that remove survivor status?

It just seems to me that there is a point there where a survivor car didn't really survive. Like an untouched car that has everything original, but a lot of things are in bad shape and should be fixed or replaced. If you have to push it from point A to point B, doesn't look to me like it survived too well.

I'm just curious where the line is drawn. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

[1969z280]

Jacquie:

I think alot of it is in the eye of the beholder. Bloomington has been trying to get the All Survivor Show off of the ground the last two years and I have participated in both because I think this is an important aspect of the hobby. The first year, I brought a 4,300 mile 1973 Formula Firebird that was in "as delivered" condition. It is nearly perfect. Last year, I brought a 1967 GTO Convertible with 34,000 miles that has had a couple of blow-ins. However, it still has it's complete original drivetrain, interior, top, glass, trim, etc. I don't believe that anyone would want to restore that car.

They were cars and they got driven. The roads of America are not exactly the best place to preserve a beautiful antique. But some of them survived. Wear items not always excluded. My 72 8,800 mile Corvette still has original tires, belts and hoses. My 4,259 mile 65 GTO is virtually untouched including the tires. But the shocks are leaking and it has a Gardner Exhaust.

JMO, Ed http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

[ORIGLS6]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm curious as to what the opinions are as to what classifies a car as a "Survivor".......................
I'm just curious where the line is drawn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems to be more like a compound curve than a 'line'! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[x Baldwin Motion]

Super thread finder man; wasn't this discussed last winter ?

It's a great can of worms. I think if you have original paint and drive train you are a survivor. Maintenance and some interior parts must be replaced when worn. JMHO

[travlnz28]

Paint, interior and major driveline components must be completely original. Normal maintenance items (battery, tires, hoses) excepted. JMO.

[SIR-VIVOR]

Always fun to find NOS parts for the replacement items if you can. Great piece!

[Lynn]

My car "survived" a serious beating by a teenager.

[WILMASBOYL78]

The only true survivors are...Cumby, Tibor and Howie http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif


and in a couple more years..Schoney http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

[Bill Pritchard]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm just curious where the line is drawn. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately, there is no 'line'....everyone seems to have a different idea of exactly what constitutes survivor status http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[MultiMopars]

If I were going to write a desciption for a car show judging in order to qualify it would be:

1. 80% original paint. You have to allow for an early on painted panel due to a large scratch or panel ding.

2. Original interior componants.

3. Original drive train.

4. Wear componants such as belts, hoses, tires, plugs, exhaust systems, and plug wires would not have to be original but should be original type products. Most of these thing simpy don't last in our envirovent simply because of age and if left original and driven or run can be the cause of serious damage to the car.

5. Other componants such as carbs, air cleaners, alternators, v.reg., starters, water pumps, rads., exhaust manifolds, etc. would be original parts.

This would be the requirements for admission to a survivor class.

If they were going to be judged in competition in this special class there would be a sliding scale for the condition of these items with some type of "special" points awarded for the trailer queens that are not driven. However these points would be "extra" points that would not necessarily the difference in winning the class. This would be done to encourage driving the cars. After all, that is what they are for. The trailer queen cars that get the "extra" points would recieve a "special" award because of their condition.

I did this quickly and certainly have overlooked some things that others will think of. Just my OPINION on this subject. Now, what did I overlook.

[Smokey]

What about an engine. It can go both ways. Think of all the Corvettes, Chevelles and Camaros that got road hard within 10,000 miles and blew a rod out the side or dropped a valve. Engine stuff I love born with like all of us, but can also see paperwork with a CE and still be 90% happy. Aftermarket hoses and belts like from Gates back in the day are great. So as long as its period correct from when it was like 10 years old and what one would see at the Service Station.

A survivor to me is one that GM sprayed paint on 75% of it and it still showing a 7.0 or higher on a scale of 1-10.

Tires- How many miles have you got out of set back in the day? Even today on my driver I go through a set or two a summer. Original born with ones are cool and should be awarded a notch or a point for it, but it shouldn't be deducted for having some repro or back in the day replacements.



I think there is a market into setting a standard for this...and coming up with a board of lets say 21 people to write a book on this.

[dl7265]

Can -o - Worms Jacquie http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I think there should be a distinction between a un restored car and a Survivor perhaps. As you eluded too, A Original unrestored car , can be in very poor condition. Case in point.

Recently One of the Muscle car magazines did a Big feature on a "Survivor" car. This particular car,has been wrecked, paint missing all over it, the bright work is pitted horribly ( Northeast car)And the owner recently has been "replacing parts" in attempt to make it "more original". I think it would be fair to categorize this one as un restored, or mostly original, but certainly not Survivor based on the poor condition.

My 2c

DL

[vdavie]

What about paperwork? What kind of paperwork should the car have?

[Salvatore]

Won't need much IF the car was never restored. The car will prove itself.

[Starship]

I have been a Survivor Judge at Bloomington Gold almost since its inception. Their guidlines are that the majority (over 50%) of at least 3 of the 4 catagories (exterior, interior, chassis, engine compartment) must remain preserved intact, unrestored, and unaltered. And that the majority of the finishes and condition of at least 3 of those 4 sections be good enough to be used as a model for an authentic restoration. Yes, that means that a car with a replacement engine can still be a "Survivor". Wether you agree with these guidelines or not, they are the only ones that are recognised. Personally I'd like to see them tightened up a notch or 2.

[x Baldwin Motion]

[ QUOTE ]
... the majority (over 50%) of at least 3 of the 4 catagories (exterior, interior, chassis, engine compartment) must remain preserved intact, unrestored, and unaltered. And that the majority of the finishes and condition of at least 3 of those 4 sections be good enough to be used as a model for an authentic restoration. Yes, that means that a car with a replacement engine can still be a "Survivor". Wether you agree with these guidelines or not, they are the only ones that are recognised. Personally I'd like to see them tightened up a notch or 2.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that survivor status should be quite a bit tighter than those requirements.

153 out of 400.. that means only 38.5% original is considered survivor?! How's my math?

[Survivor 69/Z28]

I am a proud owner of a unrestored 69 Z28 Survivor that has been "very well maintained" over its life. Meaning if it needed a bracket painted then it got painted. If something looked old and ratty it got replaced or fixed to look new. If something was dirty on the engine it always got cleaned. The guy that owned this car for 37 years was very meticulous. I praise him for how he maintained the car over all of these years as I would have done the exact same thing.

But on the flip side. I really hate when someone is trying to sell a survivor and they leave dirt and grease all over the engine bay and everything else for that matter. He will then list as untouched etc...He will not even wash the engine bay because the extra dirt and grime will add more to the appeal of it being a survivor. LOL!
Oh, and of course he will leave a dirty old air cleaner on it so that it looks even more original. Just a sore spot with me….
I love these Survivor cars!!!

[ANDY M]

My car is kind of a survivor, or as Hemmings would say, "refurbished". It was sort of restored back in the 80s, repainted from LeMans blue to black, and the M40 was replaced by a Muncie. Some of it is still original, like the headliner and other bits of the interior, but the dirt is new. Since I like it the way it is, I have a little sign explaining that it's incorrect, incomplete and unrepentant.
Get over it. It's a driver, and I like it that way.

[66 L78 ragtop]

Just visit Chris P and Joe D's garage and you will quickly learn the standard for the definition of "survivor"

[66 L78 ragtop]

If you continually replace and repaint every part on a car to maintain that "new look," before you know it you have a car that is closer to restored than survivor...the patina is gone...IMHO. The untouched appearance would be non-existent for obvious reasons...as the car would have been touched many times to replace and repaint every worn part...


Would much prefer a car with some wear and tear under the hood. Faded decals, paint and finishes are all testament to the years that it has survived. A fresh finish on an apparent survivor is the eye sore in my opinion.

The more fresh finishes, the more replaced parts, the more molested the car appears and the more it blends in with the sea of restored cars that you see at every car show...just my opinion

[MultiMopars]

It will always be a matter of individual OPINION until there is a universal hobby recognized definition. Good luck with that. The only thing you can do is make a comparision with a given car with a given clubs criteria for a survivor class if they have one. Otherwise the whole thing is a never ending debate based on what two or more people THINK.

[SBR]

[ QUOTE ]
Just visit Chris P and Joe D's garage and you will quickly learn the standard for the definition of "survivor"

[/ QUOTE ]
Orlando, you are right about that. I love a great restored car but after seeing the cars that Chris and Joe has, there is something extra special about a car that survivied that era intact and unmolested.

[Xplantdad]

That's for sure!

[Late BrakeU2]

Not sure where you draw the line on survivor, but if your talking time capsule Charlies canyon copper 70Z is the yardstick to which others should be measured.

You need to have plant installed RT44's to make time capsule though

[Big Block Bill]

[ QUOTE ]
I have been a Survivor Judge at Bloomington Gold almost since its inception. Their guidlines are that the majority (over 50%) of at least 3 of the 4 catagories (exterior, interior, chassis, engine compartment) must remain preserved intact, unrestored, and unaltered. And that the majority of the finishes and condition of at least 3 of those 4 sections be good enough to be used as a model for an authentic restoration. Yes, that means that a car with a replacement engine can still be a "Survivor". Wether you agree with these guidelines or not, they are the only ones that are recognised. Personally I'd like to see them tightened up a notch or 2.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that is what Bloomington Gold did by starting the Benchmark award. My 1967 Lynndale Blue roadster went Survivor & Gold along with Tim Mckeon's 1968 blue roadster, and Herm Rosemann's 1967 Yellow 396 coupe in 1990.

When David Burroughs and his staff saw that a car could do both at the same time, they created that award for the sole purpose of honoring an un-restored car doing 95% or better in a restored class.

I remember after we were given the awards at the 1991 show, Bloomington Gold paid a team of professional photographers to take pictures of the cars. I think they took 125 pictures of my car, and gave me copies of every one. The purpose was to rewrite the rules on what was deemed as assembled by the factory. I remember they took 25 pictures of just the door jambs, weather striping and glue alone.

In 1993 they invited all of the Benchmark cars (14 I believe, 10 showed up) back to the show for a photo shoot to produce a Benchmark calender. I still have the framed photo they gave each owner. The calender was never printed.

Bill Pankiw

[Shevelle]

Looks like there is no absolute definition...and a lot of different opinions. One thing's for sure...All the survivors are waaay cool, no matter what their form of repair or disrepair. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

Thanks for all the replys (even though I don't know any more now than I did before http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif)

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/youguysrock.gif

[Big Block Bill]

Correction.....


Herm Rosemann's 1965 Yellow 396 coupe.

Sorry for the typo.

Bill Pankiw