68 COPO CAMARO EBAY?

[brent396]

What do you think about this ? ebay #200418605138

[old5.0]

Here's a link:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayIS...focusZpfQQfviZ1 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200418605138&ru=http://motors.search.ebay.com:80/200418605138_W0QQa10239ZQ2d24QQa39ZQ2d24QQalistZa3 9Q2ca41Q2ca38v1yQ2ca38v2yQ2ca10239Q2ca3801Q2ca85Q2 ca10246Q2ca33512Q2ca10241Q2ca10244Q2ca39705Q2ca18Q QdfspZ1QQfromZR7QQfrppZ50QQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1QQgcsZ13Q Qpf_queryZ200418605138QQpfidZ2473QQsacatZQ2d100QQs adisZ500QQsofindtypeZ22QQsofocusZpfQQfviZ1)

[John]

look at the rivets in the cowl tag http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[PeteLeathersac]

Regardless of the rivets, if that Cowl tag is the original to the car although possible it was an L78 car it certainly was/is not a 9737 Copo car..

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif
~ Pete

--------------------
I like real cars best...especially the REAL real ones!

[1969L78Nova]

[ QUOTE ]
look at the rivets in the cowl tag http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Home Depot Rivets http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[MultiMopars]

[ QUOTE ]
Regardless of the rivets, if that Cowl tag is the original to the car although possible it was an L78 car it certainly was/is not a 9737 Copo car..

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif


~ Pete

--------------------
I like real cars best...especially the REAL real ones!


[/ QUOTE ]


I did not read anything in the ad indicating the seller stating it was a 9737 car.

Was the COPO process used when ordering a non standard color on a 1968 Camaro? If so, I guess that is why the seller is stating it is a COPO.

I know with Chryslers the color code on the fender tag would show as either 99 or 999 for a special order color. With that code there is no way to determine the actual original color of the car. You have to find some of the original paint on the car.

[Mark_C]

Special paint code for a Camaro in 68 is - - -. There was no Q coded paint used on Camaros in 1968. Tag is either a modified O - O tag, or a repro.

How would you like to shift a 4 speed muncie with a standard bench seat (trim code 713) in that car?

[mockingbird812]

"...COPO employee..." http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

[Pulnaway]

Sam, Thats a GM employee who only worked on COPO,s. Kind of like state employees. They sit around alot! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif

[69Tom]

Has anyone ever seen a Verdoro Green Camaro before? I really like that color, but curious as to whether it was ever ordered.

I guess if a '69 COPO could be ordered in a Pontiac color (the COPO with 325 miles on it), then I suppose a '68 could as well. And as stated, not sure it necessarily makes this '68 a COPO, rather than a special paint car.

[PeteLeathersac]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Regardless of the rivets, if that Cowl tag is the original to the car although possible it was an L78 car it certainly was/is not a 9737 Copo car..

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif


~ Pete

--------------------
I like real cars best...especially the REAL real ones!


[/ QUOTE ]


I did not read anything in the ad indicating the seller stating it was a 9737 car.

Was the COPO process used when ordering a non standard color on a 1968 Camaro? If so, I guess that is why the seller is stating it is a COPO.

I know with Chryslers the color code on the fender tag would show as either 99 or 999 for a special order color. With that code there is no way to determine the actual original color of the car. You have to find some of the original paint on the car.

[/ QUOTE ]


Multi...

The reason I specifically stated it's not a Copo 9737 car is that's the Copo # for the Sports Car Conversion package in 1968 and what it appears the seller is trying to allude to by referring to it as a Copo Camaro...regardless of his knowing of or stating the Copo 9737 #..

Whether this car is an original special paint car or not, unless perhaps a fleet order of the same color and equipped cars were requested, although cool and uncommon it's doubtful any Copo designation would've been necessary to process the order..

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif
~ Pete

[69Tom]

I guess the next question is, where is there proof that this car was Verdoro Green as you certainly can't tell by the trim tag?

[MultiMopars]

I guess I read the ad a little differently. I don't think he is saying it is a 427 car, in fact he says it has the numbers matching V.I.N. stamped 396 and M22 with it.

The only reference the seller makes to COPO have to do with the paint and reference to other Verdoro green cars that were hipo cars. That is why I asked if special order paint cars were done through the COPO process.

I am sure you are aware that a Central Office Production Order does not necessarily mean it is a special order engine of sports car prep package. That process was used for many non standard type orders. I am GUESSING that like with Chrysler special order items such as paint, that is how GM did it?

I know that when I ordered a 1971 4 door Coronet in Plum Crazy for a woman that we called the factory sales rep as the color was not available on that car. He said to send the order to him with the color code on the order form and he would handle it. In that case it already had a factory color code as the color was available on hipo cars. However, our dealership also used to order trucks for a utility company in Omaha Orange which we did NOT have a factory color code for. Certainly there had to be a paint man. number on the broadcast sheet so the assembly plant knew what to paint it with as the paint code on the sheet in the color code area would be 999. There is a remarks section on a Chrysler broadcast sheet for these types of things. Is it the same with GM? I doubt that Chevrolet would use a Pontiac paint code and would have to have a man. paint code for it, just like Chrysler.

"I have a letter from a former COPO employee stating the he recalls a limited number of 68 camaros ordered in pontiac verdoro green and most of those had the high performance engine trans combo.
The car was special ordered through COPO in 1968 in Pontiac Verdoro Green originally in California. Paint code is stamped on trim tag (Q-Q). This is rare as these were often simply left blank or had a – when a custom color was ordered."

[talwell]

I think it is nothing more than a very vast exageration of the COPO program. Sure the car may be special in that it came special ordered paint color but that does not make it a COPO car. I think this guy has been talking to the brothers in NJ with the so called "Yenko" Chevelle on how to market this otherwise fairly worthless car.

[69 Post Sedan]

The only thing I can say is the guy that hosts the show puts me to sleep!

[x Baldwin Motion]

[ QUOTE ]
The only thing I can say is the guy that hosts the show puts me to sleep!

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif Kurt....sleep posting? I'm guessing you were aiming for the Chop Cut Rebuild thread!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[69 Post Sedan]

Oops...yep...nevermind!!!

The worst part about that post is I haven't even had a beer yet! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Kurt S]

Sounds like he's talking about Jim Mattison's post a few years back about special paint cars.
Special paint isn't a COPO, though it also went thru the Central Office. COPO's required engineering, fleets and special paint didn't.

[MultiMopars]

[ QUOTE ]
Sounds like he's talking about Jim Mattison's post a few years back about special paint cars.
Special paint isn't a COPO, though it also went thru the Central Office. COPO's required engineering, fleets and special paint didn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is a contridictory statement. If the order for special paint was ordered through the Central Office Production Order process then it IS a COPO car. I may not be what people have come to expect a COPO car is but that is only because of what certain people in the hobby have come to expect of a certain label. There were lots of different reasons for and order to go through the central office rather than the normal dealer order process.

[old5.0]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sounds like he's talking about Jim Mattison's post a few years back about special paint cars.
Special paint isn't a COPO, though it also went thru the Central Office. COPO's required engineering, fleets and special paint didn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is a contridictory statement. If the order for special paint was ordered through the Central Office Production Order process then it IS a COPO car. I may not be what people have come to expect a COPO car is but that is only because of what certain people in the hobby have come to expect of a certain label. There were lots of different reasons for and order to go through the central office rather than the normal dealer order process.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is there some difference in the process depending on what you were ordering? For example, was there no difference in paperwork between a special color and something more complicated like a 427 Camaro that might explain the difference in terminology? Or have we just made "COPO" synonymous with "something cool"?

[TimG]

I know that special paint does not show up as COPO in the box on Corvette paperwork. One '65 Corvette that was ordered as blue with red interior is always referred to as a COPO. The same with the few silver with red interior '67 Corvettes. They are always referred to as COPO cars.
The '73 Black Corvette that was owned locally and also by a member of this forum didn't have COPO anywhere. The only reference to paint color was "Black" written on the build sheet. The window sticker showed "Special Paint" with a cost only.

[Steve Shauger]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sounds like he's talking about Jim Mattison's post a few years back about special paint cars.
Special paint isn't a COPO, though it also went thru the Central Office. COPO's required engineering, fleets and special paint didn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is a contridictory statement. If the order for special paint was ordered through the Central Office Production Order process then it IS a COPO car. I may not be what people have come to expect a COPO car is but that is only because of what certain people in the hobby have come to expect of a certain label. There were lots of different reasons for and order to go through the central office rather than the normal dealer order process.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's not make it into something it is not. The central office had many functions. Special paint was not a Central Office Production Order. There is no need to generalize the term to make it fit anything the central office was involved in. Also let's face it, the owner of the car is attempting to use the term (falsely)to enhance the value of the car.

BTW this sites mission is:

"Dedicated to the promotion and preservation of the Chevrolet dealer built Supercars and COPO cars".

I don't believe we are trying to preserve Verdoro green paint on this site. Lets not continue to split hairs.

[MultiMopars]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sounds like he's talking about Jim Mattison's post a few years back about special paint cars.
Special paint isn't a COPO, though it also went thru the Central Office. COPO's required engineering, fleets and special paint didn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is a contridictory statement. If the order for special paint was ordered through the Central Office Production Order process then it IS a COPO car. I may not be what people have come to expect a COPO car is but that is only because of what certain people in the hobby have come to expect of a certain label. There were lots of different reasons for and order to go through the central office rather than the normal dealer order process.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is there some difference in the process depending on what you were ordering? For example, was there no difference in paperwork between a special color and something more complicated like a 427 Camaro that might explain the difference in terminology? Or have we just made "COPO" synonymous with "something cool"?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, that is just it.

It was an order that the dealer submitted through that office rather than on the standard order form.

The office assigned non-standard (not RPO) numbers. Different numbers to identify what you were ordering. The ones that everybody is familiar with are the performance ones used by Yenko and other dealers to get what we recognize as "COPO Camaros" etc.

[RamAirDave]

[ QUOTE ]
COPO's required engineering, fleets and special paint didn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe this part of K's post may have been overlooked.

[Chevy454]

If I remember correctly, the box on the buildsheet (at least in '69) said "COPO or F&SO"...so either the "COPO" or the "Fleet & Special Order" number would be in that particular box. So apparently, a fleet or special order didn't necessarily mean COPO...right?!? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Kurt S]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/19273/page/0/fpart/all/vc/1
From Jim Mattison, who worked in the Central Office and processed the orders:
"During the years that I was a part of this group, we processed many orders for vehicles with special paint. Although these vehicles were ordered with "special paint", they are not concidered to be COPO cars. I'm surprised that more of these "special paint" cars haven't shown-up, as many of these orders were for performance cars."


The special paint cars just required an approval and costing. A FSO # would be assigned. 1001xA SPECIAL PAINT would be on the window sticker.

COPO's required thought and engineering. How are we going to modify this truck chassis to be 10.5 inches longer? What radiator to cool a 427 in a Camaro? The COPO # was a different format and would appear on the window sticker with the cost of the COPO.

Here's a page from Chevrolet Engineering News, December 65.
http://www.yenko.net/attachments/434213-COPO_ChevEngNews_12_65_pg1s.jpg

[Kurt S]

Page 2
These should be legible though I resized them a lot.

[Kurt S]

Page 3

[Pulnaway]

What yr did the COPO process start? When GM built cars like the Blackwidow, would they have gone through the same channels?

[PeteLeathersac]

Good question on the '57 Widow cars as I believe the model year the Copo designation was first used was 1958?.

Also didn't SO in 'Copo & FSO' refer to Shop Order not Special Order?.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
~ Pete

[MultiMopars]

Good info by Kurt S.

That answers my question about the paint order process which indicates a special order paint car is NOT a COP order.
Thanks

[talwell]

Even if a special paint car was truely a "COPO" car - that would not give it the value and collectible nature of the other COPO cars. There are many desirable things to the COPO cars that make them in demand with very high prices - it is just not the fact that they were required to be ordered via the COPO method.

[Steve Shauger]

[ QUOTE ]
Good info by Kurt S.

That answers my question about the paint order process which indicates a special order paint car is NOT a COP order.
Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]


It also contradicts the incorrect statements you have made in this thread:

MultiMopars
"If the order for special paint was ordered through the Central Office Production Order process then it IS a COPO car. I may not be what people have come to expect a COPO car is but that is only because of what certain people in the hobby have come to expect of a certain label."

[ QUOTE ]
If I remember correctly, the box on the buildsheet (at least in '69) said "COPO or F&SO"...so either the "COPO" or the "Fleet & Special Order" number would be in that particular box. So apparently, a fleet or special order didn't necessarily mean COPO...right?!? For the 69 Camaros the option is titled COPO and then further defined as to what type of Copo by letter designation. Each of the components that are included in the Copo option are then listed.The RPO options follow on a separate format:p

[/ QUOTE ]

[Mark_C]

The FS&O numbers were plant specific and sequential in format. Like the 67 Pacecars have FS&O numbers FN061 (and others) for Fleet, Norwood job number 061 indicated in that box on the Body Broadcast Sheet, then down on the bottom of the form was the wording PACE CAR PNT PER FS&O, indicating the car was a pacecar and it should be painted per FS&O number 061. COPOs carried other dsignations in that box and had a pack of engineering documentation that went along with them indicating what was RPO and what was additonal material needed to assemble the car.

[MultiMopars]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Good info by Kurt S.

That answers my question about the paint order process which indicates a special order paint car is NOT a COP order.
Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]


It also contradicts the incorrect statements you have made in this thread:

MultiMopars
" If the order for special paint was ordered through the Central Office Production Order process then it IS a COPO car. I may not be what people have come to expect a COPO car is but that is only because of what certain people in the hobby have come to expect of a certain label."

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if you have read the posts I have made in this thread you will see that I was asking a question and the quote above is NOT a statemnt of fact but rather posed as a possibility of what would be IF the car was ordered through the COPO process for the paint.

Part of my point above has to do with the fact that many vehicles were ordered through the COPO process as indicated in Kurt's info that ARE COPO vehicles but hold no value TODAY because of it.

[Steve Shauger]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Good info by Kurt S.

That answers my question about the paint order process which indicates a special order paint car is NOT a COP order.
Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]


It also contradicts the incorrect statements you have made in this thread:


MultiMopars
" If the order for special paint was ordered through the Central Office Production Order process then it IS a COPO car. I may not be what people have come to expect a COPO car is but that is only because of what certain people in the hobby have come to expect of a certain label."

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if you have read the posts I have made in this thread you will see that I was asking a question and the quote above is NOT a statemnt of fact but rather posed as a possibility of what would be IF the car was ordered through the COPO process for the paint.

Part of my point above has to do with the fact that many vehicles were ordered through the COPO process as indicated in Kurt's info that ARE COPO vehicles but hold no value TODAY because of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Another incorrect statement you made which was not "posed".
MultiMopars:
"Yes, that is just it.

It was an order that the dealer submitted through that office rather than on the standard order form.

The office assigned non-standard (not RPO) numbers. Different numbers to identify what you were ordering. The ones that everybody is familiar with are the performance ones used by Yenko and other dealers to get what we recognize as "COPO Camaros" etc."

Before you make absolute statements do your research. This site is about preserving the heritage of these cars accurately, not recklessly trying to rewriting it....

[442w30]

This is not the first time this has happened. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[old5.0]

[ QUOTE ]
Good question on the '57 Widow cars as I believe the model year the Copo designation was first used was 1958?.

Also didn't SO in 'Copo & FSO' refer to Shop Order not Special Order?.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
~ Pete

[/ QUOTE ]

Weren't the black widows "technically" built by SEDCO at Nalley Chevrolet, and not G.M.? Maybe because there was no well established COPO process at the time? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[MultiMopars]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Good info by Kurt S.

That answers my question about the paint order process which indicates a special order paint car is NOT a COP order.
Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]


It also contradicts the incorrect statements you have made in this thread:


MultiMopars
" If the order for special paint was ordered through the Central Office Production Order process then it IS a COPO car. I may not be what people have come to expect a COPO car is but that is only because of what certain people in the hobby have come to expect of a certain label."

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if you have read the posts I have made in this thread you will see that I was asking a question and the quote above is NOT a statemnt of fact but rather posed as a possibility of what would be IF the car was ordered through the COPO process for the paint.

Part of my point above has to do with the fact that many vehicles were ordered through the COPO process as indicated in Kurt's info that ARE COPO vehicles but hold no value TODAY because of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Another incorrect statement you made which was not "posed".
MultiMopars:
"Yes, that is just it.

It was an order that the dealer submitted through that office rather than on the standard order form.

The office assigned non-standard (not RPO) numbers. Different numbers to identify what you were ordering. The ones that everybody is familiar with are the performance ones used by Yenko and other dealers to get what we recognize as "COPO Camaros" etc."

Before you make absolute statements do your research. This site is about preserving the heritage of these cars accurately, not recklessly trying to rewriting it....

[/ QUOTE ]

That is EXACTLY what is have been doing. I was asking QUESTIONS not making absolute statements. You don't seem to grasp that.

I am not trying to rewrite anything. Calm down, they are questions and comments.

You are taking things out of context and putting words in my mouth.

If you READ my above comments it is pretty clear that I am not simply refering to the paint being a COPO item, but rather that tere are certainly OTHER cars with OTHER specialized equipment OTHER than the typical hipo Chevelles, Camaros, etc. that are discuss here. I was simply agreeing with the statement by old5.0 "Or have we just made "COPO" synonymous with "something cool"?
And that is EXACTLY what has taken place over the years. Not that I am dissing THOSE cars, but rather a simple statement that COPO doesn't ALWAYS mean what many have come to believe it is.

[bigsixman]

Tom: A friend of mine in TX sold a QQ verdoro green 68 Z/28 at a Mecum auction last spring. The car was sold new at Hansen Chevrolet in Culver City, CA and ended up in Lubbock TX. It was a pretty standard car except for the paint and it came without posi. The car came with the POP. The car ended up getting painted British green as he did not like the Pontiac green with the white Z stripes. I also have a friend with a 69 COPO camaro with a -B pnt code that appears to have been verdoro green and sold new in IA.