Leaf Springs with Ladder Bars

[Zach Carter]

Ok guys please school me on what issues I'm going to have running ladders bars on the 68 Nova. I picked up a set of NOS NMW ladder bars. I have them installed but it really pre loaded to springs. Theres not much movement just pushing on the back of the car checking the spring flex.

Note: This car is weekend cruiser to work and a few car shows. Thanks for any input in advance.

[markjohnson]

That's how "street"-type ladder bars work.....by binding up the rear suspension because of the two different arcs of the leaf springs vs. the ladder bars. Eventually, they WILL rip the spring perches off from the rear axle housing tubes. The only way to stop this is to cut off the stock rear axle housing perches and weld on leaf spring "floaters" onto the tubes. Unfortunately, these floaters then put a lot of stress onto the front ladder bar mount which isn't exactly very stout on these street-type ladder bars. I'm sorry if there's not a lot of good news in this answer but these are the reasons that you don't see these street type ladder bars on fast cars. A good set of quality traction bars has always been the best way to improving leaf spring suspensions with even a decent ride quality when you have the proper snubber gap.

[markjohnson]

Let me just add that if you really have your heart set on running these things the best two things you could do would be to weld a small square gusset(on on the front, one on the rear) of the leaf spring perches and also replace the "T" bolts for the leaf spring pads with quality U-bolts. These two modifications should make the perches a little stronger and prevent them from ripping off the housing tubes. If that happens, believe me, it makes a mess of things.

[Salvatore]

Ladder bars are a coil spring application. Like Mark said go with a quality leaf spring traction bar.

[RichSchmidt]

About 20 years ago my good friend and old shop partner Jimmy had an a 12 bolt with those ladder bars on it,an 80 Malibu body with the frame rails notched,a burning desire to join the 2 and not 2 nickles to rub together.After cutting and welding the stock upper control arms to get the pion angle right but still left with worn out suspention bushings and socks,we had the bright idea of taking the ladder bars and drilling the front to accept a traction bar snubber.We then sheet metal screwed 2 blocks of wood to the floor of the car,positioned the ladder bars about 1" from the frame and zapped the bars right to the axle tubes.Car ran like a scalded dog and we got our first lesson on suspention design.They really should put a minimum age limit on how old you can be to buy a stick welder.

[69 Post Sedan]

Here's a picture of a Nova with ladder bars on it. It was for sale a while ago on this site. I like the look but after purchasing my car, which had ladder bars on it, I found out from a LOT of people that they are horrible on the suspension. Needless to say I took them off for multiple reasons. So, in my opinion, if you want "the look"...go for it.

But, if you are really going to POUND ON IT, I would either put good leaf spring traction bars http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CEE-2101/ or the Slide-A-Link traction bars: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CEE-2100/

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn2/brkyard/Stuff/1969nova.jpg

[Zach Carter]

Thanks for the info guys. I guess they are coming off. I've got too much money invested in this project and don't want to have to fix broken rear end parts. I really like the look however I must say. I guess at the end of the day I do want something that is enjoyable to drive. I'm trying to stick with period "Day 2" components however. Does anyone know which Lakewood Traction Bars Dave Belk has on his Nova in the picture below?
http://i579.photobucket.com/albums/ss236/zach_carter/1968%20Nova/harrellnova.jpg

[Zach Carter]

Well..... I was going to wait till the car was finished to post pictures, however I thought you guys might want to see what she looked like so far.
http://i579.photobucket.com/albums/ss236/zach_carter/1968%20Nova/IMG_1082.jpg
http://i579.photobucket.com/albums/ss236/zach_carter/1968%20Nova/IMG_1081.jpg
http://i579.photobucket.com/albums/ss236/zach_carter/1968%20Nova/IMG_1083.jpg

[WILMASBOYL78]

I believe the correct Lakewood bar would be the Traction Action. We have an original set on our 1970 TH400 L78...here is a pic.

wilma

http://www.yenko.net/attachments/434640-DSCN0817.JPG

I second what Mark Johnson said about ladder bars and beefing the spring perches. And like Mark said, once they decide to depart due to the bind, and rip the rear end out of the car, it gets pretty ugly.

Years ago, Moroso had a ladder bar with a sliding segment on the nose. It was designed to mount on a set of frame connectors. Supposedly this forward mount slider helped a bit, but I'm sure everything had to be perfectly square for it to work right (not an easy task on a unit-body car). I had a few customers run them when I had a speed shop. One of the guys though, swapped back to a set of extended slapper bars and the can ran better (quicker). Some of the old guys around here will remember how we used to extend the nose of the Lakewood slapper bars so that the snubber would be closer to , or under the spring eye. Competition Engineering's slapper bar is (I think) a bit longer than the old Lakewood. It also includes the J-bolt kit. Rattle can it black and you likely won't able to tell the difference between it and the vintage Lakewoods (at least in my neck of the woods, it was pretty common to paint those screaming yellow Lakewood bars black).

Have fun

Wayne Scraba
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Tommy]

Zach, You can order new ones that look nice but they don't make the ones with the clamp at the rear anymore. Those are the harder ones to run across. I am still trying to locate you a set. Here is a pic. They made them with and without the small bar on the rear for the extra clamp but I really like the look with it there.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/68sschevyII/day%202%20parts/636d_1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/68sschevyII/traction%20bars/jbolts.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/68sschevyII/traction%20bars/IM002271.jpg

this set is 55-57 chevy due to the shock mount being forward of the axle. They have the extension on the back but no bar for the clamp.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/68sschevyII/traction%20bars/IM002262.jpg



Tommy http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

[Tommy]

These are the ones on my 68 Zach . Your 68 is really looking nice by the way .


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/68sschevyII/grotto%20blue%2068/023.jpg



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/68sschevyII/grotto%20blue%2068/003x2.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/68sschevyII/grotto%20blue%2068/025.jpg


Tommy http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

[m22mike]

That thing is sweet Zach.. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif..how about some outside shots... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[MultiMopars]

Has anyone tried a pinion snubber like Mopar and Ford have used on leaf spring cars?

It is a pretty easy set up. Even for a rear end without a pinion snubber mount surface you can usually find a way to mount it to the rear end OR "reverse" mount it with a snubber on the floor pan. They now make newer easily adjustable ones. With this and a good set of springs it is "unseen" unless you get under the car and look for it.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

If you are only going for the ladder bar 'Look', can you simply mount them a little loose around the axle (perhaps using a rubber sleeve) to prevent the damage? I really like the look, and plan to install the screaming yellow version on the '69 SS Nova.... someday!

[Starship]

Wilma, thats a rare set of Lakewoods you have there. Haven't seen that style in a long time.

[mfchassisworks]

If you like the ladder bar look get someone to make a set that get installed like a traction bar. Ladder bars even with a slider will bend the axle tubes.

Other than for the day 2 look, you don't need either to get the car to hook.

[TDW]

[ QUOTE ]
If you like the ladder bar look get someone to make a set that get installed like a traction bar. Ladder bars even with a slider will bend the axle tubes.

Other than for the day 2 look, you don't need either to get the car to hook.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is your recomendation to get it to hook? I am running a stock set-up, 5 leaf springs, HD shocks.

[Salvatore]

Zach, a great nova you have. I would take the ladder bars off and sell them to a coil spring car. Put the Lakewood slapper bars on if you want the Day-2 look. Try to get those wide bars from Wilma (he don't need em) if you can! Tell him they are obsolete and make his car look outdated! Only thing Wilma's bars need are the correct snubbers and shade of yellow. I also would use the J bolt kit if the bars have that bottom perch. That would be correct for that dated look. I bet they are my old Casler's on Belks car!http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[mfchassisworks]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you like the ladder bar look get someone to make a set that get installed like a traction bar. Ladder bars even with a slider will bend the axle tubes.

Other than for the day 2 look, you don't need either to get the car to hook.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is your recomendation to get it to hook? I am running a stock set-up, 5 leaf springs, HD shocks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your PM box is full Tony.

[70 ls6 convert]

sticky tires,easy on the clutch..

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Resurrecting.....

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Wanted to continue this Leaf Spring / Ladder Bar discussion without invading the Tow Tab thread.

Looking for ideas on how to use the coil spring version on a leaf spring car. Was planning on just fabbing some plates to make it work.... thoughts?

My bars:

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h68/aacorp/LadderBarspartnumber.jpg

Standard instructions:

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h68/aacorp/LadderBarsinstructionsheet.jpg

Out of the box:

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h68/aacorp/LadderBarsoutofbox.jpg

[Salvatore]

Again, what is wrong with vintage slapper bars? That, as you know would be correct! There are some Hurst adjustable drag shocks on Ebay for sale for novas. A tough item.

[JoeG]

I'm with you Sam on this one.....and the...Drag shocks.are a.great option!!

Granted the Ladder Bars look cool...but eventually you're gonna rip or crack something in the rear.if you run the car hard...and you are eventually have to fishplate the chasisis for reinforcement
If you're gonna just tool around town and shows and hit the gas now and again...at least you'll minimize any damage or wear
Anyway..good luck.
.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JoeG</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm with you Sam on this one.....and the...Drag shocks.are a.great option!!

Granted the Ladder Bars look cool...but eventually you're gonna rip or crack something in the rear.if you run the car hard...and you are eventually have to fishplate the chasisis for reinforcement
If you're gonna just tool around town and shows and hit the gas now and again...at least you'll minimize any damage or wear
Anyway..good luck.
. </div></div>

You nailed it JoeG! I'm going for the cool factor - slapper bars are fine, but nothing looks as serious as a full on set of Ladder Bars, <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif

We don't plan to run the car hard, just want the look - loved that Nova model back in the day, and once got my doors blown off by a Harvest Gold '70 Nova with a 396, 4 hitter... and the view: tailights, chrome diff cover and ladder bars! <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif This was around '86 or so, in Bensalem, PA.

My Nova could not hang that day, no matter how chrome my slapper bars were:

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h68/aacorp/71Nova1.jpg

Later pic: paint, bigger engine, better tires = still no match for that H.Gold BB w/ Ladder Bars:

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h68/aacorp/71Nova3.jpg

[Salvatore]

I bet you guys ran from a roll!

[Schonyenko2]

Squirrel cage.

[69L78]

I had those ladder bars on my 67 Chevelle and ended up braking the tailshaft on my muncie, I didn't plan to run the car hard either.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 69L78</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I had those ladder bars on my 67 Chevelle and ended up braking the tailshaft on my muncie, I didn't plan to run the car hard either. </div></div>

I.... see.... nothing..... (Sgt Schultz) <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif

We might not run them for long, but we are going to run 'em.

[PxTx]

Lakewood still offers the set-up.

http://www.jegs.com/images/photos/62020462.jpg

You might consider adding a front shackel for your ladder bar, a small once similar to this one on a Jeep might be just the key to keeping a happy chassis.

http://www.4x4review.com/Portals/1/OldImages/products/suspension/trac-bar-not-installed.JPG

http://www.4x4review.com/Portals/1/OldImages/products/suspension/trac-bar-not-installed.JPG

I like your effort not to build a cookie cutter car and selecting quality parts in the process.

[markjohnson]

Marlin, if you're serious about this I think it could actually be done relatively simple. Just think of using the Ladder Bar itself as a stiffening truss for the front segment of the leafspring. I'd buy a set of cheap traction bars to cut up, (or simply use your lower leaf spring mounting plates) and weld them to the top rear portion of the Ladder Bar and then just bolt a simple leaf spring clamp to the leafspring as close as possible to the front spring eye with a simple tab welded to the bottom of it and that should be it. If done properly, it would actually be functional as well as getting the look you're after.

[Plowman]

Yes Marlin it can be done,we will talk. But I found out that any thing I do temporary ends up being permanent. That's all! Be talking to you. Paul

[69 Post Sedan]

Here's my two cents. I love the look of ladder bars. When I was a kid EVERY hot car had them. Now that I am older, I found out that they are HORRIBLE on the suspension and not needed if it's set up right. Oh yea....I almost forgot, they ride like crap too!

With that said, I understand exactly what Marlin is doing and think it's a great look as long as he doesn't mind the ride and doesn't thrash on the car.

I was very interested in the Nova below, a few years ago. Gotta love the ladder bars.

Kurt <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif

http://inlinethumb64.webshots.com/5247/2841524490026515484S600x600Q85.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2841524490026515484qVIWip)

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn2/brkyard/Stuff/misc4591.jpg

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&amp;Number=318764&amp;page=1

[iluv69s]

Ladder bars have been on my 70 Camaro ever since I have owned it.(over 20 yrs?) I believe they were put on in the 70's. I have posted in the past asking for an ID, and noone seemed to know.

..they are welded to my rear and they are a tubular design with plates in the front if I recall. .I have never seen another set alike, but they sure do not look homemade either...too nice...let me know, I'll send You an email with a pic if Youd like.

max

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Send the pic, I'll post it.

Another influence was Reggie Jackson's red Deuce on the Nova poster - with Ladder Bars!

I think I have the application issue solved.... turned out to be easier than I thought, <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/naughty.gif

[Kim_Howie]

Marlin,
Set your ladder bars on the same pivot as your rear spring front eyelet. Make your eyelet bolt longer to bolt your bars on and they will be on the same pivot. They will work fine. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif

[Plowman]

Was it the chrome diff cover that made the car faster.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Thanks Kim, that sounds like a good idea.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Plowman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Was it the chrome diff cover that made the car faster. </div></div>

Ha! Nope - I had a chrome cover too, <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif That H.Gold Nova was a guick car, could hear him coming - I gunned it but he just blew me into the weeds. Some mean old hippie dude was driving it - he matched the car = angry! I like the Ladder Bars though, <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif

[Salvatore]

Hey, watch that hippie stuff. That could have been any of us back in those days. There were some left over hippies in the early 80's. Thats when cars were cars and people had oil for blood.

[PxTx]

I meant to post this in the comment above about the modified mount to eliminate the suspension bind. This I think shows what Kim and I were trying to say.

http://www.4x4review.com/Portals/1/OldImages/products/suspension/trac-bar4.JPG

[iluv69s]

these pics arent the best, but hopefully You get the idea...cellphone pics...my 70 Camaro...

been there for many years..any idea what make??

ever since my first SS396 69 chevelle, I've loved ladder bars..way cooler than traction bars ....jmo

[Kim_Howie]

Lets see. Yellow nova, OLD hippie look, mean looking. Don't know anybody like that. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/rolleyes.gif Huh

[RichSchmidt]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kim_Howie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Marlin,
Set your ladder bars on the same pivot as your rear spring front eyelet. Make your eyelet bolt longer to bolt your bars on and they will be on the same pivot. They will work fine. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif </div></div>

Not really. The problem is that on a leaf spring car,as the rear axle moves up and down it also moves foward and backward because the spring has an arch to it. If you have a car with high arch springs,and the wheel is centered in the wheel opening front to back and you push down on the back of the car,the rear axle will move rearward and the tire will move toward the back of the wheel opening. Thats why the rear of the spring must have a shackle. The only way to run the ladder bars with leaf springs is either with a slider mounting system between the rear axle housing and spring,(which can only be done with real racing ladder bars),or with some type of sliding rod end at the front mounting location of the ladder bar. It would need to be made to be something like the sliding rod end that is usually fitted into the front of a wishbone axle locator.

Those hot rod ladder bars are the worst cazr part ever designed. They destroy every car that you put them on and do nothing to make the car faster or safer. If ever there was a speed part that deserves it's own class action lawsuit,it is those pieces of crap. I wonder how many people were killed over the years by fast musclecars skipping across the road and spinning out of control because somebody thought they were improving on their car by using those bars when in fact they were making it extremly unsafe.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Rich,

Sort of like a 'shackle' for the front location - or a 'johnny joint' like in the previous pic?

The more I read, the more I learn, and I now understand why these get a bad rap. It takes all of the travel/functionality out of springs and forces the rear in directions it was not meant to go! <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/frown.gif We're going to put them on, but doubt we'll do much driving with them - no racing at all, <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/scholar.gif

[Salvatore]

You can drive all you want on them. Coming off the line really won't hurt much just not do what a slapper bar would do. They will be more like torsion bar deal I guess. Just won't point the pinion angle in the right direction. I have the correct bars for you when you are done playing. Ready to go.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

I have a vintage set of Lakewood traction bars too, they are a distant 'plan B' right now.

Gotta move on to an oval port tunnel ram now, <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/naughty.gif We're going to shoot two hoods.

[Salvatore]

I like the tunnel ram deal too! YEAA!

[Kim_Howie]

My camaro is a ladder bar car. the car has a 1.27 short time .
The rear end has a bird cage set up or a floater rear end.
Works great.

[owners2]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: iluv69s</div><div class="ubbcode-body">these pics arent the best, but hopefully You get the idea...cellphone pics...my 70 Camaro...

been there for many years..any idea what make??

ever since my first SS396 69 chevelle, I've loved ladder bars..way cooler than traction bars ....jmo </div></div> Here you go again teasing us with some pics of a car that looks to be Motion , but not filling us in.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

[quote=Zach]Well..... I was going to wait till the car was finished to post pictures, however I thought you guys might want to see what she looked like so far.
http://i579.photobucket.com/albums/ss236/zach_carter/1968%20Nova/IMG_1082.jpg

I like this look....

[mockingbird812]

Lookin good Marlin. But we'll need some detail shots!

[Xplantdad]

Sam I think that's Zach's Nova? <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/hmmm.gif

[mockingbird812]

You are absolutely right Bruce! Guess Marlin needs to get off the dime!

<span style="color: #FF6600"><span style="font-size: 17pt"><span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic"><span style="text-decoration: underline">LOOKS GREAT ZACH!</span> </span> </span> </span></span>

BTW Bruce - I was just testing yr powers of observation <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/whistle.gif

[Plowman]

That looks good and should work good I like it. Now all you need is a chrome diff cover.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mockingbird812</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You are absolutely right Bruce! Guess Marlin needs to get off the dime!

<span style="color: #FF6600"><span style="font-size: 17pt"><span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic"><span style="text-decoration: underline">LOOKS GREAT ZACH!</span> </span> </span> </span></span>

BTW Bruce - I was just testing yr powers of observation <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/whistle.gif </div></div>

Zach and I traded Ladder Bars, NOS Lakewoods for a coil spring rear to Zach for his Chevelle in exchange for NOS NMW's for Benjamin's Nova. Benjamin loved them, especially the orange color! The trade was a great idea! Thanks Zach.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

This is the look we're after! <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h68/aacorp/NovaModelpic.jpg

[mockingbird812]

Good deal Marlin. You are right...good trade all around. Nice &quot;look&quot; that you are after!

[PxTx]

Two thinks had me poke this thread. #1 is that a set of NOS NMW ladder bars for a Nova/Camaro just sold on ebay. They were orange. I actually have a set, alos NOS and in the box but they are yellow. They also include plates for inside the car to sandwich the floor. I keep thinking these would be cool if a front joint is used.

#2 reason is this picture Brent posted on a tire thread. It looks like there could be a lader bar with a front joint on it. Didn't want to go OT on the tire thread, but what do you guys think?

[PxTx]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[quote=Zach]Well..... I was going to wait till the car was finished to post pictures, however I thought you guys might want to see what she looked like so far.
http://i579.photobucket.com/albums/ss236/zach_carter/1968%20Nova/IMG_1082.jpg

I like this look.... </div></div>

Marlin, I did not realize how lucky you were to get these from Zach. Not only are they NOS, but they included the super rare crossmember brace.

I recently found a set of leaf spring bars NOS and only after looking at the paperwork realized the bar was an extra, not part of the standard kit. This was confirmed by a set which recently sold NOS on ebay and also by Dan &quot;Day2speedshop&quot; who also has an NOS set.

I feel lucky now too since I just scored a bar, NOS and the matching color to my set. I also really like the look of the whole kit installed. Thanks to Zach for posting the sweet pics.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Yep, I knew when I saw the crossbar that this was the set to go on Benjamin's '69! NOS was more icing on the cake. This was a good deal for both Zach and I, we both had the item that the other one wanted. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

Wonder why yours are NOS yellow, and ours are NOS orange? Both colors look great - especially on a '69 rally green Nova!