Missing COPO in Hot Rod magazine?

[Tracker1]

On page 13 of the latest Hot Rod (February) there is a pic with a blurb underneath about a COPO undergoing resto at Classic Automotive Restoration Service. They are claiming it is an engineering car that was supposed to be crushed or it is one that was never registered. R.L. Polk and NICB had no record of the VIN. 140 mph speedo, M-22, Hugger Orange, BE rear.

Anyone know what they are talking about?

[William]

I have done dozens of title/registration searches and finding no records on a car is hardly unusual. They don't keep records forever and if it was legally junked the title was surrendered. Cars that go several years without registration also drop off the file. A number of states did not title cars in those days; it may never have had one.

It may be a COPO-there are hundreds of "missing" COPOs. But with no supporting docs every claim they have made is hot air. And why would Fisher body write "ORANGE" on a car after it was painted?

Just Hot Rod hyping a car for one of their buds. Expect to see it for sale soon.

[Xplantdad]

[ QUOTE ]
On page 13 of the latest Hot Rod (February) there is a pic with a blurb underneath about a COPO undergoing resto at Classic Automotive Restoration Service. They are claiming it is an engineering car that was supposed to be crushed or it is one that was never registered. R.L. Polk and NICB had no record of the VIN. 140 mph speedo, M-22, Hugger Orange, BE rear.

Anyone know what they are talking about?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would think it would be this car from SEMA '09?

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b156/lotsayenkopics/SEMA%2009/DSCF4410.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b156/lotsayenkopics/SEMA%2009/DSCF4406.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b156/lotsayenkopics/SEMA%2009/DSCF4408.jpg

[Tracker1]

That's it.

[Stefano]

Interesting to see that Alan Colvin and the GM Heritage Center are verifying L72 Copo Camaros.

[1969l78]

That overspray on the intake is a little over done. My survivor car has looks nothing like that. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[MultiMopars]

Many cars that were purchased to be race cars were never titled or licensed. Many of them simply had the MSO passed to the buyer, never sending it to the state to be titled. If it was not going to be street driven there was no reason to title it.

[markjohnson]

Gotta agree about the overspray! That factory aluminum high-rise intake is a thing of beauty (at least to me!) and still out-performs most aftermarket manifolds! That overdone overspray makes that high-horse engine look like a cast iron manifold'ed 325 HP engine!

[William]

When a SHP BB with chrome rocker covers was painted the entire top of the engine was covered. There should be very little orange on either end and none along the sides.

Like so:

http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt65/JJZ109/68L78.jpg

The exception to this is 65-67 BB Corvettes which did not have chrome rocker covers. Only the intake was covered and there was some orange overspray along the sides of the intake as they had to paint the rocker covers.

I do not believe any of the claims made about this car. Not registered until 2006? Chevy just handed someone this car with no MSO as they stated it does not come up on an NICB search. Somehow it was owned for 37 years, driven and wrecked but never registered. Sure.

[Stefano]

Not all cars will show up on an NICB report.

[Keith Tedford]

While the old pictures aren't great quality, the ones of our COPO engine and that of a friends show no obvious orange paint on the intake. Anything as bad as this one would have been obvious in our pictures. Has anyone ever seen a factory engine with that much overspray or anything remotely like it. From back in the day, I certainly don't recall anything like this.

[John Brown]

[ QUOTE ]
I do not believe any of the claims made about this car. Not registered until 2006? Chevy just handed someone this car with no MSO as they stated it does not come up on an NICB search. Somehow it was owned for 37 years, driven and wrecked but never registered. Sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

As far as the claims and the restoration (if you might even call it that) I can't believe this car either. However years ago, before used car dealers had to pay sales tax and get titles when they bought a new car from their local dealer or auction, I had several new cars still on a MSO. Would just slap a dealer plate on it and drive it just like any other used car. When it came time (maybe even 10 years later) to sell it the buyer would pay sales tax and we would get them a state issued title. Finally the states realized they were losing out on the sales tax and even more likely the insurance companys realized that we were running dealer insurance on a new car and they weren't getting their "fair share". All good things finally came to an end when they closed that loop hole, but it lasted for many, many years.

[MultiMopars]

[ QUOTE ]
When a SHP BB with chrome rocker covers was painted the entire top of the engine was covered. There should be very little orange on either end and none along the sides.

Like so:

http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt65/JJZ109/68L78.jpg

The exception to this is 65-67 BB Corvettes which did not have chrome rocker covers. Only the intake was covered and there was some orange overspray along the sides of the intake as they had to paint the rocker covers.

I do not believe any of the claims made about this car. Not registered until 2006? Chevy just handed someone this car with no MSO as they stated it does not come up on an NICB search. Somehow it was owned for 37 years, driven and wrecked but never registered. Sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dealers receive ALL new vehicles on and MCO or MSO. It is up to the dealer and buyer as to what they receive. If it was financed and there was a lien on the car then it would HAVE to be titled. If not, and was going to be raced only and the buyer did not want to title it, the dealer would pass the MCO to the buyer. Chevrolet would have absolutely nothing to do with it.

I own a 1966 Hemi Coronet that was bought new to race and it was never titled or license until I did so when I bought it after it was 40 years old. It happened more than most people are aware of.

[olredalert]

-------What,,,No cowl-induction??? This could be a one of car,,,,,,,NOT!!! Oh, I agree, the overspray on the intake is probably the worst I have ever seen........Bill S

[1969l78]

Seems alot of cars that are restored today are all going over board with the over spray. Alot of survivor cars I see have very little.

[ANDY M]

This may be a dumb question, but why is the overspray an issue on a CE motor? If the factory didn't paint the motor, what's the fuss all about? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
About the flat hood, wasn't that replaced by the ZL 2 because of the intake needing extra room for enough clearance to close the hood? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
I was told that was the reason it was called "ZL2", after the ZL1.

[olredalert]

------Andy,,,Aside from the lack of correct hood, the fuss in this case would be in doing a restoration correctly, as a car appeared when new. Overspray done in this way on an aluminum intake, chrome valve-cover engine just didnt ever happen. Overspray on the front and rear of the intake to some degree would be OK up to a point, but between the intake and valve-covers never. If you are going to do it, do it right!!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif......Bill S

[SS427]

The subject of overspray has been discussed as many times as rebodies and the jury is still out on both. These engines were massed produced on an assembly line and a template was placed over the intake and sometimes the valve covers. There are hundreds of photos documenting overspray on both the intake, valve covers, exhaust and by-pass hose. Some are barely noticeable while others are crude. I have had numerous survivor big blocks in my shop over the last 25 years and currently have Joe D's here and you can see orange overspray on several areas of the intake. When I restored Dennis L's LS6 he had just purchased it from the original owner. That owner bought the car specifically to race and removed all the OEM parts such as exhaust, smog, intake, carb, valve covers, etc from the car shortly after purchasing the car and had all the parts stored in boxes. You could clearly see orange overspray on many of those parts as well as the intake and valve covers. The were several areas on the length of the intake showing signs of orange paint. I also frequently see where the mating surface of the cylinder head and intake is orange. This would be hard to do unless some small amount got on the intake. In a lengthly conversation I had with Fran Preeve a little over a year ago he confirmed this. I guess it boils down to personal preference. I like a little overspray because I feel this was the way they were originally done and also I am not restoring a museum piece but rather a replication of what Chevrolet built. Just my opinion, let the flaming begin........ http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[Kurt S]

There's no mystery on the engine overspray. As William states, the engine plant put a mask over the intake and valve covers. The only overspray on the intake would be on the ends.

[Verne_Frantz]

To continue with the overspray slant to this thread, here's a photo taken in late '62. The same molded mask was employed back then at Tonawanda as well.
http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j320/VerneFrantz/VLFPrivate/DSC03041.jpg

Paint can be seen on the intake side of the one head as well. Also note that the one valve cover never received its decals which is another example that they all weren't done the same way.

Here's another unmolested '62 intake which shows a "little" paint on the sides.
http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j320/VerneFrantz/VLFPrivate/top-1.jpg

If the same technique was used in later years, I see no reason to doubt Rick's observations. If these motors were painted in a minute or less by various workers I would expect lots of variation in the results.
Verne http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Classic Automotive]

Here we go again? Nothing but criticism, people tell me I should not even pay attention to this forum but for some reason I keep coming back. For the record can one of you that has already posted to this thread tell me how the MSO system works? When a MSO is generated? Who Generates it and how NICB receives the data?

Now for the overspray, Mr. Nelson was the only guy in this post that I felt came close to being acturate. There is not absolute facts regarding overspray. It depended on the operator of the gun. Some were heavy and some were light.

As For Mr. Colvin and the GM Heritage Center. The owner supplied the thank you language to SEMA. Mr. Colvin did nothing other than discuss the car with me a year ago. Several phone conversations took place attempting to determine dates of components etc.., DO NOT interupt this as anything else. The owner simply wanted to thank him for time spent, nothing more or less. Other documents on the car will come out.

[olredalert]

-----I guess I could ask you then, Jim, why no cowl induction hood and air-cleaner??? Was it owner preference??? I could understand and agree with that, although I still would say that the factory didnt put it together that way.
-----You are right as far as my criticism goes. I did say what I felt about the overspray and the hood. I should probably say at this juncture that you appear to do good resto work from the few pics I have seen. The overspray added is a subjective thing. I think theres too much there, and that seems to be the general consensus, but you dont and you have every right to that opinion.
-----My other opinion on the matter is that it wasnt bashing, but simply information of the kind a lot of us look for and learn from every day on this forum. I am sorry if you choose to look at as bashing. Have a good holiday......Bill S

[William]

The Manufacturers Statement of Origin [MSO] is generated by the firm producing the vehicle. It is in effect a title sent to the dealer of record and NICB. Back in the day it was probably in the paperwork the new owner took to DMV to title and register a car. As stated some race cars were never registered and could be "on MSO" forever. These days the buyer never sees it as most states now require the dealer to immediately title & register vehicles upon purchase. Point is no car got out of Chevrolet without an MSO. They did sell cars Engineering used for evaluation; the Pete Estes '68 Z/28 convertible is probably the best known and had considerable documentation to back it up. The '67 and '69 Indy 500 track cars are also well documented examples. As I stated, back in my COPO tracking days I did many title/registration searches. To conclude anything about a 41 year old car showing no registration history [as you seem to have] is folly. Back in '69 some states did not title cars; some registered them by county-there was no state-wide system. Cars that go unregistered for a few years are deleted from the system.

Chevrolet has insisted for many years that it has no build records at all prior to 1977. How the GM Heritage Center was able to verify your car is of considerable interest to many Chevrolet muscle car owners.

As for the car itself there were errors made in the restoration. I posted a photo of an excellent example of factory engine paint-how can there be overspray along the sides of the intake when the entire top of the engine was covered during paint? I was in the parts end of the business for 15 years; we had dozens of used HP aluminum intakes and I have seen hundreds more in the last 35 years. I have never seen more than a very slight amount on either end. How 409s with painted rocker covers may have been painted doesn't apply.

No one has stated you car is not what you claim it to be. Unfortunately the hobby has become inundated with fake body & VIN tags, re-created "aged" paperwork, re-stamped drivetrains and all sorts of fast-buck types making claims. Completely fake cars have been sold and are now in litigation. The audience has become quite jaded as you can imagine. Making claims about a historic provenance of ANY muscle car requires more than you have shown.

For my part in offending you I apologize. Let's see what you've got.

[MultiMopars]

[ QUOTE ]
The Manufacturers Statement of Origin [MSO] is generated by the firm producing the vehicle. It is in effect a title sent to the dealer of record and NICB. Back in the day it was probably in the paperwork the new owner took to DMV to title and register a car. As stated some race cars were never registered and could be "on MSO" forever. These days the buyer never sees it as most states now require the dealer to immediately title & register vehicles upon purchase. Point is no car got out of Chevrolet without an MSO. They did sell cars Engineering used for evaluation; the Pete Estes '68 Z/28 convertible is probably the best known and had considerable documentation to back it up. The '67 and '69 Indy 500 track cars are also well documented examples. As I stated, back in my COPO tracking days I did many title/registration searches. To conclude anything about a 41 year old car showing no registration history [as you seem to have] is folly. Back in '69 some states did not title cars; some registered them by county-there was no state-wide system. Cars that go unregistered for a few years are deleted from the system.
Chevrolet has insisted for many years that it has no build records at all prior to 1977. How the GM Heritage Center was able to verify your car is of considerable interest to many Chevrolet muscle car owners.

As for the car itself there were errors made in the restoration. I posted a photo of an excellent example of factory engine paint-how can there be overspray along the sides of the intake when the entire top of the engine was covered during paint? I was in the parts end of the business for 15 years; we had dozens of used HP aluminum intakes and I have seen hundreds more in the last 35 years. I have never seen more than a very slight amount on either end. How 409s with painted rocker covers may have been painted doesn't apply.

No one has stated you car is not what you claim it to be. Unfortunately the hobby has become inundated with fake body & VIN tags, re-created "aged" paperwork, re-stamped drivetrains and all sorts of fast-buck types making claims. Completely fake cars have been sold and are now in litigation. The audience has become quite jaded as you can imagine. Making claims about a historic provenance of ANY muscle car requires more than you have shown.

For my part in offending you I apologize. Let's see what you've got.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most of the above is correct. I will correct a couple of details.
Today it is called an manufacturers statement of origin(MSO) back in the day it was a maufacturers CERTIFICATE of origin (MCO) I am not sure what year it made the name change.
It is not the "title" to the dealer but rather EXACTLY what the name implies and is the doucument of ownership to the dealer from the manufacturer. It is the FORERUNNER to the first title (or registration) depending on the state. There were and are several states that are non title states and use a registration only to transfer ownership.
As I stated previously, if the buyer had no intention of driving the car on the street there was no reason to pay for a title application or license and the dealer would simply pass the MCO to the buyer.
Yes, dealer paperwork was typically held in folders in the bookkeeping office of the dealership. The buyers never had any reason or legal right to see those documents including MCO, dealer invoice, shipping paperwork, etc. The only thing that the law covered regarding new car paperwork/potential buyers was the Maroney window sticker which is required to stay on the cars window until the new owner takes legal pocession of.
I do not know if back in the day MCO info was reported to the NCIB, as the NCIB was created by the insurance industry for reporting of information regarding STOLEN cars and I don't THINK that all vehicle info was reported to them from the manufaturer.

[Verne_Frantz]

The NICB records are nearly 100% complete back through '62. '61 is a little sparse. Every MSO (or MCO) was sent to them. I found my '62 (through a police friend when it was easier) and it was never stolen or salvaged. That's how I verified the original selling dealer of my car.

And I apologize to everyone who thinks I was bashing or posting non-appropriate historical information regarding overspray. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[SS427]

[ QUOTE ]
And I apologize to everyone who thinks I was bashing or posting non-appropriate historical information regarding overspray. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

No need to apologize Verne. You are entitled to your opinion just as I and anyone else is. Without two different opinions we would never learn anything new or correct from supposed so please continue to add your comments! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Stefano]

[ QUOTE ]
-----I guess I could ask you then, Jim, why no cowl induction hood and air-cleaner??? Was it owner preference??? I could understand and agree with that, although I still would say that the factory didnt put it together that way.
-----You are right as far as my criticism goes. I did say what I felt about the overspray and the hood. I should probably say at this juncture that you appear to do good resto work from the few pics I have seen. The overspray added is a subjective thing. I think theres too much there, and that seems to be the general consensus, but you dont and you have every right to that opinion.
-----My other opinion on the matter is that it wasnt bashing, but simply information of the kind a lot of us look for and learn from every day on this forum. I am sorry if you choose to look at as bashing. Have a good holiday......Bill S

[/ QUOTE ]

No cowl induction hood or other ZL2 equipment? Does it have the appropriate cowl induction wiring hole above the fuse box?

Where are the pics of this Camaro, I haven't seen but one.

[William]

There was a small write-up with a photo of the body in restoration in a recent issue of Hot Rod.

This reminded me that someone has docs showing Chevy Engineering acquired a production '68 Camaro SS. They installed a B-body L72 engine and submitted it for for emissions testing. No one knew what became of it. Maybe this was the same deal; wasn't built as a COPO. I'd like to see what the GM Heritage Center has on it.

If you had contacts at Chevy back in the day you could buy some of their styling/engineering cast-offs. Local beer magnate Augie Pabst managed to buy the "Cherokee" '67 SS-RS show car complete with Weber carbs. I asked him about it at the RA Vintage races a few years ago. He said no one could get it to run right so they put a Holley on it. Car is still around-has a clear plexiglass hood panel ala ZR1 Corvette.

[volspeed1970]

I hate to dig up an old thread but I found this one while researching the green Dick Harrell car in that other thread last night. I heard at a show recently that this car has been found to be a Z-28 sold by Yenko Chevrolet, and not a big block car as it is portrayed. The guys that told me this said the car was a Hugger Orange Z-28 that had a Yenko badge on the rear panel only as the guy that owned it was part owner of a drag strip in Tennessee where the car was located. They say that the car is well known in the Nashville area as "the Yenko Z". Anyone else heard this? I would have figured if this car was truely a prototype with docs that Cliff would have bought it up to go with his gold car.