COPO VALUES IN GENERAL

[MultiMopars]

Since joining this site I have been watching what are both asking prices, sales prices, and suggested prices of these cars. I am assuming that as in the Mopar world a few years ago that the pony cars are typically bringing more money than the intermediates?

Are these current prices up, down, or stable from the past three years? I don't recall them being this high from watchin the Scottsale auctions then, but maybe I just wasn't paying attention.

I don't know if Chevrolet has published or if there is a list of dealer sold COPOs for numbers, but if so, what are the production number differences for comparision of lets say a 1969 COPO hardtop Camaro 427/425 steel block hardtop car vs. a hardtop 1970 Hemi Challenger @287 units or a hardtop 1970 Hemi Cuda @652 units?

[talwell]

As with almost all other muscle, collector and exotic cars the prices are now lower than they were demanding in 2006-2007. As such, they are still highly elevated over the early 2000's even at this point.

As for your question about the COPO's - dont get me wrong and dont think I am trying to insult you but do you ever read anything on this site? I think if you took 5 minutes to read about COPO cars that you would realize that there is virtually no paperwork available on them other than the GM Canada and ZL1 records. Everything that is known about them is coming from whatever papers or memory that people have of that period. The only thing that is known is the approximate number of MN & MO 427 blocks that were cast and the estimate derived from that of about 1000 COPO cars.

[mockingbird812]

I'll let the COPO experts discuss current market, but will comment on comparing the '69 COPO Camaro to a 70 Hemi Challenger or Cuda. BTW, I own both Mopar and Bowties. Really different animals mostly because of the RPO (Mopars) vs the COPO (Camaros). It has always surprised me regarding the former huge price differential (x18mo. ago) betweeen the regular prod order Hemi E bodies (anyone could order one) vs. a select few in the know who knew about the COPO ordering process. I believe there were about 1,000 or so COPO '69 Camaros. Currently it appears, to my casual observation http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif , that a no stories, documented COPO Camaro is as strong or stronger than a comparable '70 Hemi E body. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[MultiMopars]

Yes, I have read A LOT in the short time I have been a member here. However I have never seen anything that conclusively said there were no documented list of how many were built. This IS however a lot of reference to the fact that there is no conclusive way to determine if many of these cars ar REAL. Maybe YOU are confusing these two different things?

Is this "guestimated" 1000 cars for 1969 COPO Camaros ONLY or all COPO 427 cars of all years and all bodies?

I too am surprised at the price difference between the Camaros and the E bodies. I can't really see any difference weather they were available through the regualr dealer order process or the G.M. COPO process. The bottom line is the number built or these HP cars that really determines there values today.

I have another comparision I will bring up later but don't want to confuse things were discussing here.

[70 copo]

The guess on the potential COPO build comes from the documented 427 engine production totals from the period.

[MultiMopars]

So, anyone care to give a valuation of a #1 condition 1969 COPO hardtop Camaro with a steel 427/425 car based on recent verified sales price at auction or by reporting dealer?

[Stefano]

I've have a few in stock. Make an offer and we might be able to determine what the current market value is today.

[MultiMopars]

[ QUOTE ]
I've have a few in stock. Make an offer and we might be able to determine what the current market value is today.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now THAT is a salemans answer!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[talwell]

I see a few available now in the mid $100's - this was unheard of just a few years ago.

When you value these cars alot goes into what value can be attached to it. Most of the value is derived by the presence of original born with drivetrain and then grows from there. Documentation is the key to $$ with any COPO - the more you can document and verify the more you will get for the car. Also, the history of the car will also be a determining factor in setting the value of the car. One last factor is the options the car came with and the delivering dealer. Once you factor all of these together you can get a proposed value of the car but the true value can only be determined when the buyer arrives with the cash and the sale happens.

[BARRY]

HI THE MAGIC NUMBER IS ????? 150,-175,

[Stefano]

Sold! You can have the Vitar COPO at the bargain price of only $165,000.00.

Vitar COPO (http://nickeychicago.net/vehicle.php?id=71)

[PhilS]

So many variables on these but I think the right car should break 200k. Good docs with great color and options aren't that easy to find. I would guess 50k difference between a FG
auto and a RG 4spd.
My old DY, white interior 4spd will be at RS this month. Might get an idea from that one if it sells.

[MultiMopars]

I am a little surprized at these pries based on what I have been gleening from previous threads on this site. I thought the pries would be higher. Maybe I am confusing these with the prices of the aluminum engin cars?
1970-71 Hemi E body hardtops autos have been selling in the $150K range with about a 5% add for 4 speed. I thought the COPO camaros were urrently selling for onsiderably more.

Now I am going to ask about another current valuation but in a new thread so as not to onfuse things.

[wheelhop]

I don't want to start an argument over Chevy vs. Mopar.
Looking at production numbers is a good way to start when you are trying to value something.
Also you have to look at the "fan base" and I would say without question the most popular brand back in the 60's and 70's was Chevrolet.
So, you might have the same production numbers but you might have more Chevrolet lovers out there.

[MultiMopars]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't want to start an argument over Chevy vs. Mopar.
Looking at production numbers is a good way to start when you are trying to value something.
Also you have to look at the "fan base" and I would say without question the most popular brand back in the 60's and 70's was Chevrolet.
So, you might have the same production numbers but you might have more Chevrolet lovers out there.

[/ QUOTE ]

No one is trying to start an arguement about this. I am simply making a comparision of the two.
I don't think that what was popular in the day has a whole lot to do with what people will pay for a car today. There are MANY hobbist/collectors out there today that are not necessarily brand loyal including myself. This is one of the big reasons for the big jump in Mopar prices a few years back. When it was basically Mopar people buying them the prices remained lower. Suddenly when many collectors realized the low producion numbers compared to GM and Ford products they started looking at and buying them.

I make the comparision between these cars because they are both pony cars with similar engines and similar production numbers.

[PhilS]

The COPOs should really bring more than the Mopars based on the fan base and the fact that every E body can be IDed by the vin and very few COPOs have docs.

[MultiMopars]

[ QUOTE ]
The COPOs should really bring more than the Mopars based on the fan base and the fact that every E body can be IDed by the vin and very few COPOs have docs.

[/ QUOTE ]


HUH??? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
I don't understand your rationale' with that statement?
Yes, a Hemi E body is "documentable" by the V.I.N. which should certainly trump a "maybe" car that someone wants big money for.

[camarojoe]

You're hanging out on the wrong forum...This is the sYc site, "dedicated to the promotion and preservation of the Chevrolet dealer built Supercars and COPO cars"... and around here a mopar isn't "trumping" a COPO or any other Chevrolet Supercar.

I grow tired of these constant "what it's worth" arguments anyhow.

[MultiMopars]

[ QUOTE ]
You're hanging out on the wrong forum...This is the sYc site, "dedicated to the promotion and preservation of the Chevrolet dealer built Supercars and COPO cars"... and around here a mopar isn't "trumping" a COPO or any other Chevrolet Supercar.

I grow tired of these constant "what it's worth" arguments anyhow.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not an arguement but rather an observation.

Yeah, I know what kind of a web site it is and the brand bias and I consider the source on those comments.

I am a CAR GUY, not a Mopar or a Chevy guy. I have owned MANY of both and simply like ALL old muscle cars, just some more than others.

When I joined this site I thought it was non-denominationalhttp://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gifand expected it to be just what the name implied a "supercar site" for all brand name supercars. It is a little confusing with the BIG "Super Car Registry" but then a web address of yenko.net, which I didn't notice for some time as i simply saved it to "my favorites" when I came across it. Too bad something like that doesn't really exist that everyone can just get along on and discuss ALL super cars without bias.

[PhilS]

I simply meant that COPOs are rarer than Hemi E bodies. Although the production numbers are very close most of the COPOs can't be positively identified and every Hemi can. The Hemi engine makes the dif. Without it the values wouldn't even be close. I really like the V codes but in alot of cases they won't bring half the money of a Hemi.

[old5.0]

I knew this was a Chevrolet oriented website when I came here. But part of what makes this site great is the depth of knowledge contained in it. Got a question about a Mopar? It's here. A Buick? It's here. Can't find it on your own? Ask. Somebody here knows. This site has probably one of the broadest knowledge bases on the internet, from Tri-5 Chevrolets to ...cough... late model Mustangs, and every American high-performance car in between. And that's what makes it one of the best car sites out there.

My two cents.

[paris401]

[ QUOTE ]
The Hemi engine makes the dif. Without it the values wouldn't even be close. I really like the V codes but in alot of cases they won't bring half the money of a Hemi.

[/ QUOTE ]

and if the camaro has a 396 it's worth 1/2 of a hemi cuda,

[old5.0]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The Hemi engine makes the dif. Without it the values wouldn't even be close. I really like the V codes but in alot of cases they won't bring half the money of a Hemi.

[/ QUOTE ]

and if the camaro has a 396 it's worth 1/2 of a hemi cuda,

[/ QUOTE ]

http://smiliesftw.com/x/facepalm.gif

[rockn69]

That's an interesting comment to a fellow SYC member. Not to be disrespectful, but if there wasn't Mopar or Ford guys or those cars to be compared to...then the Copo's would not be worth as much as they are. It would be a pretty boring day at the strip. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[John]

Right from the Home page..

"The PREMIER Supercar site

Dedicated to the promotion and preservation of the Chevrolet dealer built Supercars and COPO cars."

....But alot of people that own or have owned these cars...have also owned or do own other brands....

...Hmmmm? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

[talwell]

[ QUOTE ]
That's an interesting comment to a fellow SYC member. Not to be disrespectful, but if there wasn't Mopar or Ford guys or those cars to be compared to...then the Copo's would not be worth as much as they are. It would be a pretty boring day at the strip. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to disagree with you on this comment. I do not think that there is any parallel in value considerations between the COPO cars and any other brand offerings. The cars stand on thier own and what happens with other cars does not have any affect on thier value. What does affect thier value is the economy and what buyers can or are willing to pay.

[paris401]

my only point was what makes a cuda valuable is the hemi, same as what makes a copo special is the 427.

as a owner of numerous mopars, and a few chevy's , incl a copo as well as a BM , i'll state what i always say when i am at a mopar gathering...

i luv mopars, but when i wanta go fast, i take out a chevy.. and i don't say it to bust balls, its the truth...

[rockn69]

I'm a Chevy fan as most are on this site. My comment was intended to allow a little space to those who may own other brands than bowties. Of course pricing is driven by economy and the willingness of someone to open up their pocket book, but the muscle car craze has generated and thrown all supercars into this high priced arena. I think the Big Three all help keep the interest and pricing of these cars up in the stratosphere they are in. Just my 2 cents http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[camarojoe]

rockn69, if you go to the main forum page, you'll see there is an entire section called "Other Muscle" that was created for non-Chevrolet cars and discussion, and its no secret many members own and are interested in other makes of cars besides Chevrolet. No one's ever been told not to discuss other makes on this site. But it should be noted that Chevrolet based supercars are the top dogs here, always have been...always will be.

[Postsedan]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm a Chevy fan as most are on this site. My comment was intended to allow a little space to those who may own other brands than bowties. Of course pricing is driven by economy and the willingness of someone to open up their pocket book, but the muscle car craze has generated and thrown all supercars into this high priced arena. I think the Big Three all help keep the interest and pricing of these cars up in the stratosphere they are in. Just my 2 cents http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Pat,

I`m lov`n your passion http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

Dan.

[MultiMopars]

Some comments since my last post addressing others.

My original purpose for this thread was to learn the true values of these cars today. I also wanted to compare them to the best comparible factory built car of the day . The Boss 429 could have been thrown in as well but I don't think they made anywhere near the numbers so I did not include them. I know there is another forum for other muscle but this thread has more to do with the COPOs than other muscle.

I think that WIW posts do a lot for a web site. They often either bring people to the site to post that know of an unknown car or possibly do the same with others that have been here for a while and are laying in the weeds.

These muscle car prices have PRIMARILY been driven by their h.p. and their reputations on the race tracks. The body styles do play a role as well and when you mix the two in a FACTORY combination it really brings on the interest/value.

Yes, a Hemi powered E body jacks the price up, but that is all a COPO Camaro is as well, just the addition of the big engine and what came with it, take that away and it is just another Camaro.

Generally I compare muscle cars from make to make based on the factory h.p. ratings and usually the pricing is close. There are a few exceptions. When we get into the 425 h.p. and above cars, the true h.p. is often hidden in those factory ratings for insurance purposes of the day. They are rated at rpm ranges that are not the true potential of that engines.

For the most part six pack Mopars are 1/2 or less than a hemi in the same body with the exception of the 1969 six pack Bees and RRs as the price of Hemi cars in those body styles has slipped more than the values of the 69 six pack cars.

For the short period of time I have been here I will agree that there seems to be a vast amount of knowledge of all makes which is nice to see.

Regarding the comment of which make is faster I would not BEGIN to open that arguement here other than to say that is what dragstrips are for. We all know that there are so many varables with the old car magazine test of the day that any of the cars being tested could have been beaten by it's factory competitor on any given day. This is what makes this hobby so much fun.

[bergy]

great discussion guys - gotta love this site! Just my two cents - but I (and I believe many others on this site) love the late '60 through early '70s US muscle car era. That's why I collect cars from that period. Hemi Challenger, COPO Camaro, A/C Cobra, and '67 GT500 are my favorites - that's why they're in my garage. When you see them sitting side by side - it's a great sight. COPO Camaro will always be my favorite of all though!

[Jeff H]

With the COPO Camaros, the values can be a broad range depending on original drivetrain, paperwork, know history, etc. Assuming you are referring to a car that is original drivetrain with paperwork and a proper restoration, I would guess the COPO 427/425hp cars are still in the $200-250K range. I really don't have any recent sales information though so it's a guess based on asking prices. COPO cars with non original drivetrain or no paperwork seem to be under $200K but again that's a guesstimate. There's really no reason to compare them to any other make/model of car because it comes down to supply and demand. Maybe if anyone knowing of any real recent sales could chime it the price window might be better defined.

[69 Post Sedan]

I personally think the Hemi cars are great cars but over inflated.

Correct me if I'm wrong but it was a lot easier to get a Hemi back in the day than it was to get a COPO?

[VIPERICH]

there are several on ebay at this time.not sure about if there real or not but there are some on there for value ideas.

[firstgenaddict]

150k - 250k for a non Yenko depending on whether or not it has the Sports Car Conversion, D80, gauges etc...
Setting aside the engine and a few major items, without having a fairly extensive base of knowledge about the minute details of COPO's, a person could overlook one in a micro second... however if you know the numbers all you have to do is look at a Mopar TT.

[tom406]

Boss 429's are right in the thick of this debate, with production of 1358 (859/499-69/70), a big special motor and an iconic bodystyle. All 4speeds so we don't have to worry about that variable. They're currently in this price structure as well, with $150K buying a good car without a lot of needs, but likely with a NOM block and in a common color (White or Grabber Blue). $200K+ for killer cars with original engines, and to get beyond that you probably would have to have a time capsule black or red S-motor (so-called NASCAR spec motor the first 272 cars had) car with perfect history.

Though I agree that the market drives these similar cars to similar levels, I bristle a bit when people try to formulate equations based upon production and horsepower ratings. Boss 302's and '69 Z/28's shouldn't be valuable with these criteria. Less than 300 advertised hp and 20K production do not equate with $50K-$100K examples. Just demand and supply.

And people have to like the cars. Copos, Bosses, and Cudas are pretty cars. Hemi Darts are awesome, but not pretty, and not practical to even hit a cruise night in.

Finally, IMO you have to forgive a LOT about E-bodies to step up and pay the big money. I loved looking at these cars since I was a kid. Wanted a Challenger since I first saw Kowalski popping pills and burning rubber on a midnight showing of Vanishing Point. Finally got my first drive (in a RED 440 6 PACK, no less) in '93. I was very disappointed:( The doors that rattle for 5 seconds after you close them, the interior made out of too few pieces of molded plastic, etc. I've never gotten over it. I'll probably never own a 70/71 Cuda or Challenger because of my failure to allow great style and killer drivetrains to overcome the rest of it. (No offense to E body owners. You have beautiful cars. I just won't be buying them http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif)

[Stefano]

We sold a few Hemi Cudas last year all were 4 speeds.

The low was $165,000.00 for a driver quality Hemi up to the Mid $200,000.00 range. The Hemi Cuda we had at Russo and Steele last year was a no sale at $235-$240,000, range plus the buyers premium.

We also currently have a very original Survivor Cuda for sale which will be running across the block at Russo and Steele in a couple of weeks, so we might have a chance to feel things out on that one.

Comparable L72 9561 COPO Camaros have been and are bringing close to these prices today. Tomorrow may be different.

Yenko L72 9561s fetch approx. $75-$100k more, car for car and ZL1 9560 COPOs fetch approx. double the Yenko number car for car.

With that said generalities are just that, and when the supply demand equasion is out of whack either way, you can have wild price swings up or down.

[HPMIKE]

Have you sold or know of any '71 Hemi E bodies that have sold recently-specifically Challengers??

MB

[quick-bowtie]

I sold a Low Mileage MINT original body Black 71' Hemi Challenger 4 spd Mr. Norms car with TONS of original documentation last year.. for I beleive $235k which I thought was fair money for a non shaker car with a warranty motor.

I currently know of a couple 71's for sale around the 200k range. I would say the market is 175k to 275k depending on the car, color and options and add about another 100k on top of that for a 71' Cuda IMO. And those are price where you could find a buyer I know some guys are still asking insane money but they arent finding buyers.

[hvychev]

I agree with Joe that I too am tired of all of these "what's it worth" threads and other topics that get to be nonsensical. I don't know, but this site has been getting less and less interesting. When I visit here, which has been less and less frequent these days, there are a ton of names that I don't even recognize with under 100 posts debating Mopars, Oldsmobiles, and other cars I couldn't care less about. This is a Chevy Supercar site. See the definition of supercar in Joey's post. Those cars should be discussed here first and foremost. If I want to learn about Mopars I will go to the moparts board or whatever it is called. I just long for threads where I actually learn something usefull about Chevrolet dealer built and factory supercars. Unfortunately, the people that used to possess the knowledge that I learned from also don't post as frequently. The few times I have clicked on Ford or Mopar sites I never see guys boasting about their Chevy's, but I see all kinds of heated debate surrounding other brands here every day.

[Stefano]

[ QUOTE ]
Have you sold or know of any '71 Hemi E bodies that have sold recently-specifically Challengers??

MB

[/ QUOTE ]

The '71 E-bodies still bring a premium to the '70s, car for car.

Since there were so few '71 Hemis built, options, color and quality can really make a difference in value, such as the shaker option on a '71 Challenger.

I was the under bidder on Andy's Challenger, for resale inventory. That car was well bought, by another one of our good customers.

Moderators; If you think the thread should be moved, I would tend to agree.

[MultiMopars]

[ QUOTE ]
We sold a few Hemi Cudas last year all were 4 speeds.

The low was $165,000.00 for a driver quality Hemi up to the Mid $200,000.00 range. The Hemi Cuda we had at Russo and Steele last year was a no sale at $235-$240,000, range plus the buyers premium.

We also currently have a very original Survivor Cuda for sale which will be running across the block at Russo and Steele in a couple of weeks, so we might have a chance to feel things out on that one.

Comparable L72 9561 COPO Camaros have been and are bringing close to these prices today. Tomorrow may be different.

Yenko L72 9561s fetch approx. $75-$100k more, car for car and ZL1 9560 COPOs fetch approx. double the Yenko number car for car.
With that said generalities are just that, and when the supply demand equasion is out of whack either way, you can have wild price swings up or down.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is it that so many people assign such a value to such a thing? I see people making statements like this about Mr. Norm's cars as well. You won't find any add for such a thing in ANY old car price guide and I wonder if anyone has anyway of knowing if it REALLY adds any value to a car as it is seldom that two identical cars sold from different dealerships are available at the same time to the same buyer.

Not your remark but anothers.
As to the comments about WIW threads read my remarks in an earlier post. Along with the thought that if you exclude all of them as well as other that are not absolutely pertainate to what SOME are looking for in a web site there would not be much content and web site would soon flounder. I think the fact that it is 5 pages speaks to the fact that OTHERS are interested. This is the reason web sites have different forums of interest. If you don't like what is on this forum you can move to another. My guess is that your not finding things of interest is because MOST of those things have been discussed to the point there is nothing left to talk about.

This IS an everchanging market in one regard...selling prices, therfore I think it is VERY worthy of discussion and that most people find it interesting.

[quick-bowtie]

I dont know what to tell you but Ive been messing with cars for along time and I can say 100% the selling dealers of cars can make a differance and add value. Just the facts Ive seen it happen time and time again and know plenty of people that will step up and pay more for a car from Mr. Norms, Yenko, Nickey, Gibb, Dana etc..

[rubbinisracing]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yenko L72 9561s fetch approx. $75-$100k more, car for car and ZL1 9560 COPOs fetch approx. double the Yenko number car for car.
With that said generalities are just that, and when the supply demand equasion is out of whack either way, you can have wild price swings up or down.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is it that so many people assign such a value to such a thing? I see people making statements like this about Mr. Norm's cars as well. You won't find any add for such a thing in ANY old car price guide and I wonder if anyone has anyway of knowing if it REALLY adds any value to a car as it is seldom that two identical cars sold from different dealerships are available at the same time to the same buyer.


[/ QUOTE ]

I surely don't speak for others, but as a collector I would definitely pay more for a Yenko than a Non-Yenko COPO comparable car. I'm not going to quantify the difference and leave that to the negotiation.

[sYc]

[ QUOTE ]
[
Why is it that so many people assign such a value to such a thing? I see people making statements like this about Mr. Norm's cars as well. You won't find any add for such a thing in ANY old car price guide and I wonder if anyone has anyway of knowing if it REALLY adds any value to a car as it is seldom that two identical cars sold from different dealerships are available at the same time to the same buyer.


[/ QUOTE ]

You are kidding ..right? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

Who looks at old car price guides? I have yet to see one that came anywhere close to real world prices for supercars.

[Steve Shauger]

Multimopars:Why is it that so many people assign such a value to such a thing? I see people making statements like this about Mr. Norm's cars as well. You won't find any add for such a thing in ANY old car price guide and I wonder if anyone has anyway of knowing if it REALLY adds any value to a car as it is seldom that two identical cars sold from different dealerships are available at the same time to the same buyer."

If you believe the old car price guide you reference then there is no need for this thread... you have the answer. The price guides I have seen have been so off from the market.

There are many variable that make up price. In many cases it should be on a car by car basis. Originality, condition, color, options, selling dealer and the cars provenance and history are what determines the value to most buyers. many cars are sold privately and their prices are not captured in any guide database.

Lets all wait until next weeks auctions as they are a relative barometer of the market(not an absolute indicator of values).

[MultiMopars]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[
Why is it that so many people assign such a value to such a thing? I see people making statements like this about Mr. Norm's cars as well. You won't find any add for such a thing in ANY old car price guide and I wonder if anyone has anyway of knowing if it REALLY adds any value to a car as it is seldom that two identical cars sold from different dealerships are available at the same time to the same buyer.


[/ QUOTE ]

You are kidding ..right? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

Who looks at old car price guides? I have yet to see one that came anywhere close to real world prices for supercars.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, a couple of examples would be insurance and finance companies.

There are seldom adds in these guides for things like a COPO ordered car mainly because they seldom change hands often enough that there are any recent comparibles. There are several things that people will assign values to that are not in price guides such as color.

I started this thread because I am interested in values as well as the cars themselves. It is often hard to determine values on some of these cars because they most often trade hands privately and the sales/buying price is not for public knowledge.

You have to treat a guide for what it is a "guide." It is the same thing with newer cars and the price guides used by the auto business. There are often times that a car dealer will pay full wholesale book for a particular car if it is a HOT sellers for them. Typically a dealer buys a car a minimum of $1000. BACK of wholesale. book.

These old car price guides are created from the prices of recent auctions and reporting old car dealers. You have to gleen the values based on what you know about these old car and what you follow. As an example, if you follow all of the auction reports for a particular type of car that there has been no reported sales since late 2006 you KNOW that you have to take into account a general market value discount because the guides value has not moved since that time because there have been no sales.

I have been buying and selling these old cars for 40+ years as well as spent 30 years in the new car business. I will say this, anyone that is concerned about being upside down in a car they intend to purchase is a FOOL if they don't look at price guides. OTOH, if you have a money tree in the back yard that you can pick $100. bills of off anytime you want, or if you purchase out the pure love of the car with no intentions of ever selling then it makes no difference to you. However, as much as most of us say we are in it for the love of the cars, MOST are aware and concerned with where there cars stand as a commodity.

[tom406]

MM, you're being way too analytical here. You can't look to the price guides like the NADA on late models at auction. These cars are emotional buys, not commodities, and often times the STORY is as compelling as anything about the car. Dealers like Mr. Norm's, Berger, Dana, and Tasca had such a high profile, that many buyers want a piece of that. If history meant nothing, then factory Ferraris and Shelbys that won major races wouldn't bring any more than unsuccessful privateer cars. Going through one of the "BIG" dealers just adds cachet to some buyers (me included). Yenko SYC cars, even though mechanically identical to the iron COPO cars, are their own deal because they have their own IDENTITY, much like Shelbys. And most discerning collectors know that the COPO option was Yenko's brainchild, and that the non-Yenko cars were made after the fact. The Yenko brand has only gotten stronger through the efforts of this board and other media, and that is bound to create more demand. And whatever you think about the aesthetics of the stripes, they make the cars more visually interesting and give them a stronger identity. And if you don't think that makes any difference, then you need only look at the value differences of Judge and non-Judge GTO's to see the error of that view. Or even a Road Runner versus a 330hp Sport Satellite.

The heart wants what it wants and will often pay accordingly.

As for these WIW/value threads, they are a little distasteful, but are easily avoided for those who are not inclined to participate, IMO. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[quick-bowtie]

Well said Tom

[MultiMopars]

[ QUOTE ]
MM, you're being way too analytical here. You can't look to the price guides like the NADA on late models at auction. These cars are emotional buys, not commodities, and often times the STORY is as compelling as anything about the car. Dealers like Mr. Norm's, Berger, Dana, and Tasca had such a high profile, that many buyers want a piece of that. If history meant nothing, then factory Ferraris and Shelbys that won major races wouldn't bring any more than unsuccessful privateer cars. Going through one of the "BIG" dealers just adds cachet to some buyers (me included). Yenko SYC cars, even though mechanically identical to the iron COPO cars, are their own deal because they have their own IDENTITY, much like Shelbys. And most discerning collectors know that the COPO option was Yenko's brainchild, and that the non-Yenko cars were made after the fact. The Yenko brand has only gotten stronger through the efforts of this board and other media, and that is bound to create more demand. And whatever you think about the aesthetics of the stripes, they make the cars more visually interesting and give them a stronger identity. And if you don't think that makes any difference, then you need only look at the value differences of Judge and non-Judge GTO's to see the error of that view. Or even a Road Runner versus a 330hp Sport Satellite.

The heart wants what it wants and will often pay accordingly.

As for these WIW/value threads, they are a little distasteful, but are easily avoided for those who are not inclined to participate, IMO. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[/ QUOTE ]




My opinion, your opinion, tomato toma'to. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif


I respectfully DISAGREE with about 90% of what you have said here.
Here is why.
First I don't understand you first comment? Are you referring to LATE models from the standpoint of using an NADA guide for OLD car auctions or LATE model cars? Either way, an NADA OLD car guide is the last one I would use.

You must have missed my comments about the differences in buyers and certainly the emotional purchase falls under that as well.

I am all about HISTORY. In fact I am old enough to have lived in my heyday through this very history. Maybe that is why I feel the way I do about much of this. As far as I am concerned when you are speaking of an old car that COULD have been ordered from ANY authorized dealer why should WHO got the original owners money have any bearing on the price today? Maybe some of you younger guys are buying into this because you first learned of these cars through some of the books that have been published that taut these car and some of the DEALER packages etc.

There are exceptions and the Yenko cars are one but that is because of the stripes and lettering as you pointed out. Mr. Norm also had a special order of 1968 440/375 Darts that HE branded as a GSS. They were only available through him, which is another example of this. I would even throw in the Baldwin/Motion cars here simply because they had a HISTORY of being very competative race cars due to their "guarantee." This however could be likened to these cars that have a proven track record with a well known racer of the day that will command more money than a like car without.

Yenko did NOT invent the COPO porcess as it was used for many years prior for many special circumstance cars. I don't feel that the COPO order process is what gives value to these cars but rather how they were equipped through this process. It is just what has become the easy way of DESCRIBING what the car really is as it was not something you could find a Chevrolet brochure as an RPO.

I completely understand the differences between your example GTOs and Mopars, but in these instances mean nothing to the context of this discussion as they are either different models or sales packages, which we all know make a difference in values.

Your right "The heart wants what it wants and will often pay accordingly" but I don't think that people should be told that there is a substancial difference in the price of like cars simply because of where it was sold originally, above examples excluded. The bottom line is there really needs to be something "special" about the car ITSELF not just where it was sold. If this is something that eventually comes to be a FACT by virtue of proven sales prices where it can be determined THAT is why it sold for more, then so be it. In the meantime as a SALEMAN I can tell you it is simply the old car dealers that HAVE one in inventory or the SELLER/OWNER that is hyping this. I can honestly say that I have never heard anyone say that they are specifically looking for a car that was sold at a particular dealer to BUY other than the above examples.

As far as THIS WIW thread let me bring some clarity to this. I don't own one that I am selling, and I have no intentions or buying one. As I said, i am simply interested in old car values and what drives people's way of thinking on them and why. As you can tell, I have strong opinions on these things as obviously you and others do too. I consider this to be very HEALTHY discussion although I KNOW that often people have a tendence to get over heated. It reminds me of a time I was listening to two friends argue about baseball. One of them was an attorney and when some other outsider chimed in with "please stop arguing" he said "it is what I went to school to learn and do for a living." http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[sYc]

"...In the meantime as a SALEMAN I can tell you it is simply the old car dealers that HAVE one in inventory or the SELLER/OWNER that is hyping this. I can honestly say that I have never heard anyone say that they are specifically looking for a car that was sold at a particular dealer to BUY other than the above examples."

I am not for sure what rock you crawled out from under, but you do not have a clue. "WHO got the original owners money" has a major impact on prices. Such names as Gibb, Nickey, Douglass, Berger, Dana, Harrell all will demand more $$ then a similar car sold by a unknown dealer. If all cars were viewed as equals, there would be no Supercar Registry or this site.

[MultiMopars]

[ QUOTE ]
"...In the meantime as a SALEMAN I can tell you it is simply the old car dealers that HAVE one in inventory or the SELLER/OWNER that is hyping this. I can honestly say that I have never heard anyone say that they are specifically looking for a car that was sold at a particular dealer to BUY other than the above examples."

I am not for sure what rock you crawled out from under , but you do not have a clue. "WHO got the original owners money" has a major impact on prices. Such names as Gibb, Nickey, Douglass, Berger, Dana, Harrell all will demand more $$ then a similar car sold by a unknown dealer. If all cars were viewed as equals, there would be no Supercar Registry or this site.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for the warm welome to YOUR site. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Explain to me the differene in one of these cars as opposed to one that could have been order from Joe Smith Chevrolet?
Let me ask you this, would you pay signifigantly more for a 4 door Impala that one of these dealers sold simply because they sold it?
What possible effect does WHAT dealer sold it have on weather it is defined as a super car? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif To me a super car is define by its drivetrain. But it is your site so feel free to make up a definition that everyone here should bow down to.

[sYc]

"....would you pay signifigantly more for a 4 door Impala that one of these dealers sold simply because they sold it?"

Yes...


No differest then celeberity owned cars demanding more money then similar "Joe Blow" owned cars.

It happens every day.

[hvychev]

Multimopars, I am stating to think more and more that you are some troll that has dropped in here just to stir $hit up. Seriously, I don't think many of us are interested in reading every 1000 word manifesto-like post that you type. Maybe it is time that you should get lost and go to a Mopar site where you would be received with a "warmer welcome."

[427.060]

MulitMopars, with all due respect, It doesn't really matter if you think cars sold at some of the big name dealers should be valued the same as ones sold at "Joe Smith" Chevy. It's the guys that are buying them that determine that they are worth more. If there were 2 identical COPOs for sale and one has documents that says it was bought new at Berger, or any other big name dealer, and the other has documents showing it was bought at "Joe Smith" Chevy, the Berger car will always sell for more money. Whether you agree or not, facts are facts.
James

[Born30YrsLate]

...what has more value?...a Picasso or a lesser known artist similar painting from the same era...it's that easy...it's entirely on a buyers preference...some dealers from day 1 were all about performance thus their name has been attached to these special cars from then and that's what increases demand for them...

[talwell]

The value of these cars is based on thier pedigree - a car from the renowned muscle car dealers of the period have a much better pedigree than the unknowns. Yes, technically it is the same car but the pedigree is really what you pay for. I would much rather buy a car with a known pedigree for the bragging rights than to have a car from an unknown.

[Xplantdad]

MultiMopars, Most people that use/peruse this site exhibit a lot of patience regarding posts that they may or may not agree with...or to posts that have no really clear and defined answers and have been asked a million times (i.e., beaten to death).

I applaud the users of this forum for their patience regarding posts like this one. I tend to not respond to these types of posts...as most of the time it's a waste of everyone's time...but I felt the need to respond here.

First of all, most of the people on this site are very familiar (and are in tune) with current market trends and pricing on cars. Most of the people here are intimately familiar with Barrett Jackson and all of the other auctions in AZ and elsewhere...and how they are run and what happens at them.

Secondly, I went back and read through almost all of your posts and couldn't really find anything postive in any of them. You are either berating or challenging
everyone that chooses to respond to your posts because they don't agree with you. Then you BOLD certain words to make your point.

You may not see it the way I do...but it's fairly obvious to me, at least.

This is a site that has fostered a ton of friendships because of a common bond, the love of musclecars.

If all you can do is offer up negative post after negative post...with pessimistic or defeatist attitudes, why even bother?

Cars are cool...people are cool! Make it out to Pavillions sometime...or maybe even the auctions, instead of arguing on the internet. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

It's much more fun...

[RPOLS3]

Bruce-

I am impressed with your professionalism here, you truly are someone who "gets it" as Mr. Cumby likes to say.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/BruceRocks.gif

Jake

[old5.0]

[ QUOTE ]

Let me ask you this, would you pay signifigantly more for a 4 door Impala that one of these dealers sold simply because they sold it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Why do you keep trying to logically define something that's purely emotionally driven? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[MultiMopars]

Well, the masses have spoken.

I did not start this thread to argue about anything, I simply asked some questions.

No one has yet shown any clear cut proof with regards to a partiular car that has sold for more money simply because it sold originally from any given dealer. This was a sidbar incidently to my original question.

Simple information gathering, thats all.

Sorry that some found this negative.

No further comments necessary.

[talwell]

[ QUOTE ]
No one has yet shown any clear cut proof with regards to a partiular car that has sold for more money simply because it sold originally from any given dealer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now you are really joking aren't you? I guess you have never heard of Gibb, Nickey, Baldwin, Yenko, etc....

[old5.0]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, the masses have spoken.

I did not start this thread to argue about anything, I simply asked some questions.

No one has yet shown any clear cut proof with regards to a partiular car that has sold for more money simply because it sold originally from any given dealer. This was a sidbar incidently to my original question.

Simple information gathering, thats all.

Sorry that some found this negative.

No further comments necessary.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, I've paid a premium for cars from high-perf oriented dealerships that aren't one of the big names, but meant something to me personally. That's the point. It's emotion. It's not something you can define and print in Old Cars Price Guide.

[Steve Shauger]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No one has yet shown any clear cut proof with regards to a partiular car that has sold for more money simply because it sold originally from any given dealer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now you are really joking aren't you? I guess you have never heard of Gibb, Nickey, Baldwin, Yenko, etc....

[/ QUOTE ]

When MultiMopar stated it is foolish not to use "Old Car Price Guides and called these cars a commodity, he lost most of us. These cars are not a business to most of us, we are enthusiast with a passion for these cars. Yes they are expensive but there is no risk if you love these cars(because you know your cost upfront) I have owned many Muscle cars and have never felt the need to refer to a car price guide. If these car were a commodity I would say yes use the price guide but the cars you are targeting are scarce and they haven't been produced for 40+ years.

[Mr70]

MM
I can't really answer your original question you started this topic with,because I don't follow those cars as much.But I think most have been very respectful with the majority of your inquiries on here and have shared good insight.
As well as paying more for a car that sold new from a well known dealer like those already mentioned,(compared to one that wasn't),trinkets & memorabilia from those same dealerships are also highly sought after by their owners and thus more money is offered as well,compared to the average lesser known dealerships.
But to include the lesser known dealerships also,like one where my non super car was sold new at,I'll personally pay tall money for anything that came from them.Why??..because it means that much more to me then another dealership out there.Why??..because it's geared towards my car and that speaks volumes to me.
So much so,that I have to have it at nearly any cost.

[MultiMopars]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No one has yet shown any clear cut proof with regards to a partiular car that has sold for more money simply because it sold originally from any given dealer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now you are really joking aren't you? I guess you have never heard of Gibb, Nickey, Baldwin, Yenko, etc....

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course I have heard of them. I was selling Dodges new in 1968-74 and I suspect it was probably before you were born. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

It just makes no sense to me. A car's value should be based on it's condition and model regardless of WHO sold it. If the documentation to prove what the car is happens to also determine what dealer sold it that should have no bearing on it's value.
What is missing here is that I believe ALL of these hipo COPO cars WERE sold by ONE of these dealers so how can you assign partiular value from one dealer over another? If one of these cars surfaces that could be documented and it showed that it was sold in some farm town dealership that also sold tractors would it be worth more or less?

[Mr70]

Ask Fred Gibb.

[MultiMopars]

[ QUOTE ]
MM
I can't really answer your original question you started this topic with,because I don't follow those cars as much.But I think most have been very respectful with the majority of your inquiries on here and have shared good insight.
As well as paying more for a car that sold new from a well known dealer like those already mentioned,(compared to one that wasn't),trinkets & memorabilia from those same dealerships are also highly sought after by their owners and thus more money is offered as well,compared to the average lesser known dealerships.
But to include the lesser known dealerships also,like one where my non super car was sold new at,I'll personally pay tall money for anything that came from them.Why??..because it means that much more to me then another dealership out there.Why??..because it's geared towards my car and that speaks volumes to me.
So much so,that I have to have it at nearly any cost.

[/ QUOTE ]

As stated by others, it is a personal choice of the buyer if he wants to justify in his mind if he is willing to pay more because of this.

I can understand someone willing to pay a little more for a car from say their hometown dealer or say their father's old car that they have an emotional attachment to. But what I am speaking of is in general for buyers that have no emotional attachment to the original selling dealer. I just can't see people making a blanket statement that the selling dealership SHOULD have added value to EVERYONE.

[Charley Lillard]

A very desirable car is a 67 Nickey converted 427 Camaro. I believe Mike sold one about a year ago at Mecum for around 400K ? Out here in Ca. we had a dealer named John Geer that also was converting 67 Camaro's with 427's. The Nickey is worth several hundred Thousand and the Geer car if to be found is probably worth less that 100K.

[MultiMopars]

[ QUOTE ]
A very desirable car is a 67 Nickey converted 427 Camaro. I believe Mike sold one about a year ago at Mecum for around 400K ? Out here in Ca. we had a dealer named John Geer that also was converting 67 Camaro's with 427's. The Nickey is worth several hundred Thousand and the Geer car if to be found is probably worth less that 100K.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now there is a somewhat qualified answer, but are these asking pries now, then or at different times on each car or simply your opinion?

[budnate]

do you recall the stupid phrase everyone threw around in '09 especially your boss when explaining something to you that sucked......" it is what it is" .....well if a car came from a certain dealer yesterday or today and has paper to back it up,

there generally more desirable to buyers and will usually ad a few bucks to its value......." it is what it is" .....simple as that.

being your a old dealer I cannot fathom why you dont grasp this concept...any dealer or private seller I have been around plays on this when selling, I find it very hard to believe your so naive to claim to not understand this......did you deal in a town of a population of a 100 people???

[SSJunkie68-69]

Go out of town for a few days and didn't check the site.....see what I missed...

[sYc]

Darryl, one of the things that amazes me, your website web page (http://www.sedonarental.com/classic_car/classic_car_homepage.htm) is about helping folks determine the value of muscle and vintage cars, but you are unable to grasp the notion that some cars, because of who the selling dealer was, are worth more.

[Steve Shauger]

[ QUOTE ]
Darryl, one of the things that amazes me, your website web page (http://www.sedonarental.com/classic_car/classic_car_homepage.htm) is about helping folks determine the value of muscle and vintage cars, but you are unable to grasp the notion that some cars, because of who the selling dealer was, are worth more.

[/ QUOTE ]


For $25 I hope you get a copy of the "Old Car Price Guide"
as well. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

[Charley Lillard]

The Nickey sale price was real and I'm fairly certain it would bring the same amount even today. There hasn't been a Geer car sale that I know of but I'm certain I am the only guy on this site that has heard of them. I'm also certain that everybody across the country would pay more for the Nickey because it is well known. My opinion is based on collecting and owning some very special cars over the years. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

[Berger RS Copo]

When I'm racing my car,the questions I'm asked the most are, "is that a real COPO?",and "is it a real Berger car?" If you do not think the dealership matters, get an old "by Berger" emblem, get another from your Chevy dealer down the street and put them both on E-Bay. See which one gets the most money!

[PeteLeathersac]

For frigs sake...we're all here right now because of one specific little dealership!.

Welcome to Yenko.net!

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif
~ Pete

--------------------
I like real cars best...especially specific DEALER cars!

[SuperNovaSS]

Wow, annoying music on that webpage.

[camarojoe]

[ QUOTE ]

For $25 I hope you get a copy of the "Old Car Price Guide"
as well. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif I didn't realize I could find out everything I ever needed to know about buying a collector car for a low one time payment of $25.00.

Suddenly everything seems much clearer now... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[budnate]

Holy Crap. its crystal clear now...we are dealing with Darryl, and my other brother Darryl. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

[m22mike]

Could we have a motion to lock this thread... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ....Oh scuse me I must have dozzed off... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[mockingbird812]

Stay focused Mikey. You might miss something while you are out here visiting. BTW, who has the Mike-watch for the rest of the week!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif



P.S. i concur with the man from OHIO!! LOCK IT!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[m22mike]

Sam, I is in good hands, little women took me shoping.. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Looked at some Tommy Bahama shirts I can't afford.. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

[Xplantdad]

I'll watch Mike on Thursday...or any day for that matter. I have the week off to screw around http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Where's the cool picture about the horse being beaten? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Did you buy any shorts Mike?

[camarojoe]

http://www.spooncraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/beat_dead_horse2.jpg

There you go Bruce... 2nd time in a week. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[Xplantdad]

Before the "lock"

The 10 day weather forecast...I am not reponsible for any moisture http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

10-Day Forecast



Tonight
Jan 12 Partly Cloudy 46° 0 %

Wed
Jan 13 Mostly Cloudy 73°/45° 10 %

Thu
Jan 14 Partly Cloudy 68°/42° 20 %

Fri
Jan 15 Sunny 71°/42° 0 %

Sat
Jan 16 Partly Cloudy 71°/44° 0 %

Sun
Jan 17 Partly Cloudy 73°/45° 0 %

Mon
Jan 18 Showers 65°/43° 40 %

Tue
Jan 19 Few Showers 65°/43° 30 %

Wed
Jan 20 Scattered Showers 64°/42° 60 %

Thu
Jan 21 Partly Cloudy 65°/43° 20 %

Last Updated Jan 12 03:14 p.m. MT

[Xplantdad]

[ QUOTE ]
http://www.spooncraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/beat_dead_horse2.jpg

There you go Bruce... 2nd time in a week. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[/ QUOTE ]


Thanks Joe...you rock! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[camarojoe]

rockin' the lock.