396 Build Up

[69 Post Sedan]

This might sound like a dumb question but can a 396 2-bolt main running on pump gas with a solid roller cam get into the 11's without any power adders? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[VintageMusclecar]

Easily.

[69 Post Sedan]

What I am contemplating on building is a 1971 854 CE block with the pistons that were in my motor then using 077 aluminum heads with a solid roller.

Here are a couple of pictures of the pistons.


http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn2/brkyard/1969%20Chevelle/100_2551.jpg

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn2/brkyard/1969%20Chevelle/100_2641.jpg

[WILMASBOYL78]

What car is the fire breather going in..??

sounds cool.. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[VintageMusclecar]

Have you c.c'ed the chambers on your 077's?

Do you already have a cam picked out?

Open chamber heads on those pistons are going to throw 1 full point plus of compression out the window, which isn't necessarily a bad thing since you're wanting to run pump gas, but you'll have to be very careful with the cam specs to keep cylinder pressure in line.

[69 Post Sedan]

I was on Team Chevelle and one of the guys there had it figured out that if I run these exact pistons with 077 (118cc) I would be at about 10.37 compression.

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2533955930044112208IFvWcX

[VintageMusclecar]

I totally missed the part # on the pistons...was thinking of the factory 11-1 pistons. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Those should work OK, just check to make sure there's no dome-to-chamber interference issues.

What about the rest of the combination?

[69 Post Sedan]

To be honest I just started leaning towards building the 396. I have a August 1969 cast 512 block and was thinking of building a 427 for the car. But I like the idea of having a quick car on smaller cubes. (underdog)

With that said I don't have a cam in mind yet other than a solid roller.

The pistons are in great shape. They are all within .002 of each other. I figure that I will get new rings for them. The rods are stock 3/8. If I don't use them, a machine shop near me has a set of 7/16 dimple rods for a decent price. I have a 6223 crank that I will be using.

The intake will be either Edelbrock TM2R or C427X whichever works best for the street/strip with power brakes.

I just purchased some Comp Cams Pro Magnum rockers. I am waiting on a guy who has the 077 heads to contact me so we can come to some sort of price.

Then I have 2 Holley carbs. One is a 3886091-AN 3418-1 dated 881 and the other is 3878261-EH 3310 dated 914. Whichever one that works the best with my combo is going on the car.

[VintageMusclecar]

What car is this going in, what's the weight, trans/converter (/clutch), rear gearing, and is there any chassis work done?

450 honest flywheel HP will easily put a well-prepared 3500 lb car solidly into the 11's w/o breaking a sweat, and pushing 450 HP from a 396 is about as difficult as falling off a log. Unless you have your heart set on it, you don't need to bother with the added expense of a roller cam & lifters, a relatively mild flat tappet will easily do the job.

3/8" rods will be more than adequate with a good set of bolts and the obligatory prep work. The engine should be able to turn 6500+ until the cows come home.

Of the two intakes you mentioned, the C427X would be the better choice, and even that's going to be down on power over an OE 163 (or 198) intake. (read this thread (http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4224&hilit=C427X) for more info)

If the intake you decide to run has a center divider (assuming a dual plane intake of course), the 3310 will be the better choice. If your intake does not have a center divider, the 3418 will be the better choice, but it will need to be re-jetted. (read my dyno results (http://www.vintagemusclecarparts.com/pages/ss496pg9.html) from testing a 3910 against a 3418 on my own 496)

Please note that the 3910 was used in conjunction with the center divider intact, and the 3418 was used w/o the divider, as it was originally designed by Holley/GM to be used on the open plenum L88 intake.

Eric

[69 Post Sedan]

Eric, this build up is going in my 69 Chevelle. It's a M22 right now but I think I am changing to a M22W, Hays street/strip clutch, 3.73 gears and 27" tall tires.

The car weighs about 3700 with me in it.

My C427X intake is a dual plane with a cut divider.

Stock chassis other than boxed in upper and lower control arms and air bags in the springs.

Thanks for your information...it's greatly appreciated.

Kurt http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[VintageMusclecar]

Kurt;

With your vehicle weight and limited gearing, you're going to want to concentrate on low-end and mid-range torque, not higher rpm HP. You're looking at a usable power range of ~3000-6000 rpm. Anything much over that is going to be wasted here.

In that regards, you might want to consider shelving the rectangle port heads and going to a set of open chamber oval ports, such as the 049's or 781's. (A set of 820's might work as well, but you'll have to watch the dome-chamber fit). You're also going to have to keep the cam timing fairly conservative as well to keep the power range down where it's going to do you the most good. Again, a flat tappet will suffice at this level. (FWIW, look at how quick guys are running with the factory L78/LS6 143 cams, and they're only .520" lift and 242° @ .050)

A wide ratio trans will be a benefit as well here due to the additional torque multiplication. You're going to have to concentrate hard on covering the first 60' and 330' as quickly as possible as that's where your e.t. is going to come from.

Again, the weight and limited gearing are going to make things a bit more difficult, but if you concentrate on keeping the power range down where you can use it and spend a little time to refine the combination, you'll get there. Keep one key factor in mind throughout this--the car itself has to work...there is a lot of e.t. to be found with the hood closed. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

And you're welcome, I'm glad to help however/whenever I can. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

Eric

[69 Post Sedan]

One of the reasons I want to run rectangular port heads is they really don't start working until the rpm's get up there. So, I won't be frying the balonies out of the hole...just hooking up. By the time I get the real HP going I'll be moving.

I know that there are guys out there running the 198 intakes to keep the power down out of the hole just for that reason.

That's how I ran my 427 Nova that I built and it worked wonderful, even with P215/70R14. I never got a chance to take it to the strip to see how quick it was...I sold it http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif but here is video of my Nova from a while ago when it had a tired 69 396 325HP, M20 with 3.73 gears.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4hJSJPlxfs&feature=digest

BTW I ran a 13.93@100mph with the air cleaner off. Earlier I ran a 14.08 and a 14.06 with the air cleaner on. That was my first time ever at the track. And the brake lights were coming on every time I pushed in the clutch.

[VintageMusclecar]

Read this (http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2778759&postcount=8). This is what a well-thought-out relatively mild oval port 396/402 can do in a 3600 lb A body.

The 7.10 e.t roughly translates to 11.20's or thereabouts. Granted this is a dedicated bracket car, but that also goes to show how important the overall combination (i.e. "the <u>car</u>") is set up.

As far as trying to soften the hit off the line, that's only going to make your 11 second goal that much more difficult.

E.T. comes from covering the first 60' and 330' as quickly as possible, and what you give up in short times you can not make up down track (at a given HP level).

There's a thousand ways to skin a cat. Some are far more effective than others. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

[Chevy454]

[ QUOTE ]
Originally posted by: 69 Post Sedan

One of the reasons I want to run rectangular port heads is they really don't start working until the rpm's get up there. So, I won't be frying the balonies out of the hole...just hooking up. By the time I get the real HP going I'll be moving.

[/ QUOTE ]
Wishful thinking, believe me...our class [and especially the FAST class above us] is the masters of killing bottom end power and moving elsewhere, and those huge ports still make enough grunt down to make things interesting to the 330' mark (and beyond, sometimes!)...

Listen to Eric, he's giving you great advice...with decent tires &amp; hook this should be a no brainer.

[markjohnson]

That's an interesting link that Eric posted and I'd love to see what the 454-468 version would be capable of! I know that it's the correct sum of parts that gets you down the Dragstrip faster than the next guy but if I had to pick one the "magic" part in that comination, it would have to be that Comp Cams XR274R Solid Roller. I've actually had my eye on that very camshaft for an upcoming project and it looks very promising. I've built and owned MANY Big Block Chevys and I've had 9.00 Comp. Pump Gas/Oval Port/Solid Roller motors that would just flat out embarass my 12.5 Comp. Race Gas/Rectangle Port/Solid Flat Tappet Motors. I had the good fortune to talk BBC's with John Lingenfelter quite a bit in the back in the Nineties and he's the reason I'm sold on Oval Ports for applications under 496 CID and .650 Lift camshafts. Your 396 CID would be very happy with a set set of oval port heads with the big 2.19/1.88 valves fitted to them with some nice bowl port work and a Performer RPM Intake Manifold. Don't worry about trying to kill of low-end power with those giant Rectangular ports on such a small CID engine. Make all the power you can.....and then worry about getting it to hook. That's the fun part!

[VintageMusclecar]

There was a fairly well-known poster over on the TC forums years ago who had an exceptionally well scienced-out `68 Chevelle with an oval port 468 in it. (I'm not going to mention any names, and for those who know whom I'm referring to, please follow suit)

The 468 used prepped oval port closed chamber heads, ~11-1 compression, several different roller cams along the way, an Edelbrock Perf. RPM and a ProSystems prepped Holley backed by a TH400 and a 4.10 gear. The car reportedly weighed in over 3800 lbs and regularly ran well into the low 10 second range with 60' times consistently in the 1.30's.

Again...lots of ways to skin a cat, but e.t. is in the short times.

[Xplantdad]

Eric, I think I remember the guy you were talking about. He always had a picture of his Chevelle with the front way up in the air...

[SuperNovaSS]

Isn't there a member here who has a Blue 69 Chevelle with a similar setup? I remember a thread where he was thinking about returning it to L78 specs?


Jason

[68427imp]

Don't mean to hijack this thread,but I have a '65 Impala SS with a 468 with 781 heads(no port work),2.19/1.88 valves,Comp Magnum 292 cam(.550 lift,244 duration@050),Edelbrock Performer RPM intake,9.5 to 1 forged pistons,out-of-the-box Holley vac.750,1.7 ratio roller rockers and 2" headers.Anybody know how much h.p. and torque this combo makes? Eric? Jim

[JLerum]

Bob West has the 9.98 wheel standing 71 chevelle. It's 505 cubes. oops!!!! I gave it away...!

Jim

[VintageMusclecar]

Jim;

Given the appropriate state of tune (and assuming all the machine work is spot-on and everything is fresh &amp; healthy), there's no reason that engine couldn't make 425+ HP on an honest dyno. The box-stock 750 VS and that cam are leaving some power on the table.

Eric

[VintageMusclecar]

Jim;

Bob's car is another great example of an oval port BBC, but as you said, it's a 505" deal with Brodix heads, and hence not the one I was referring to earlier.

Please allow me to reiterate:

[ QUOTE ]
(I'm not going to mention any names, and for those who know whom I'm referring to, please follow suit)

[/ QUOTE ]

[68427imp]

Thanks for the info Eric.The car being a daily driver(in the summer of course!) I didn't want to over-cam or over-carb it.Maybe I should of went with a modern XE grind...I was kind of hoping for 450,it's such a heavy Chevy.

[VintageMusclecar]

I wouldn't overly concern myself with the HP #'s, you've got a good street combination that should make ample torque to move a "Heavy Chevy" down the road with ease. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[69 Post Sedan]

If I run the 4 bolt main block that came with the car I am thinking of running Keith Black FHR forged pistons that are 4.165 (396 +.070) which is only 17 cubic inches less than a standard bore 427.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/UEM-IC9949-040/

[69 Post Sedan]

I took the block that came in my car (3999290 4 bolt main) in to have it cleaned and double checked to make sure of what I have. When I had my engine builder take a look at it he said the bores were perfect and straight. Initially I was told the cylinders were .008-.009 on the big side. It's already .060 over. If I have to bore it again that would make it 396 +.070 or a 402 +.040. Do you know how hard it is to find pistons that are 4.165 for a BBC? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

I have a cast crank and HD 3/8" rods that are going to get completely rebuilt.

The 077 heads should be at my house this week. They are getting checked out and flowed.

The cam Mark talked about in a earlier post is what I am leaning on running which is also what Comp. Cams suggested. 11-770-8 or XR274R. It has good low end torque with steetable manners.

Carb and intake are up in the air yet but my engine builder liked the TM2R with the 3418 Holley.

[Postsedan]

Sounds like all the puzzle pieces are coming together http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

Dan

[Chevy454]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you know how hard it is to find pistons that are 4.165 for a BBC?

[/ QUOTE ]
They make 'em every day! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif Gonna be hard to find something off the shelf probably to exactly nail the compression you're looking for anyway, and the quality would be WAY better with a custom piston anyway...the specs are usually all over the place on the off the shelf slugs. But, just my $.02

[69 Post Sedan]

Rob I contacted a few piston companies and Ross quoted me $915...just for pistons. That's too steep for me. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

If I can get some made for less than that I probably would but so far I have not heard from anyone that I can afford.

I figure I will have to go with the KB pistons, try to lighten them up a little and get a lighter wrist pin.

Depending the head gasket thickness, the compression on the KB pistons will be around 10.1/10.5 to 1.http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[69 Post Sedan]

I am still having a real problem with finding good pistons for my 402.

Does anyone have any recommendations on another piston company to contact for custom pistons? I realize it's not a standard piston but holy cow I don't want to buy their company...I just want 8 pistons made.

[VintageMusclecar]

Keith Black forged pistons w/17 c.c. dome (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/UEM-IC9948-040/)

Keith Black forged pistons w/41 c.c. dome (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/UEM-IC9949-040/)

[69 Post Sedan]

Eric, those are the ones I have looked at but the pistons (743 grams) and pins (158 grams) are very heavy and I have been hearing that the sizes very a lot.

I'm not saying I won't run them but I would like to get a set that are lighter. I could have work done to lighten them up and purchase lighter pins but I would rather find a better set for around $600-$700. Maybe that's not possible...I don't know.

Thanks, Kurt

For my two bits, if it was mine, I'd build the biggest engine I could and then call it a 396 <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif A long (and I mean a <span style="text-decoration: underline">long</span>) time ago, the late Ralph Truppi told me there was considerable power gain in something like a 4.250-inch bore big block, going from 0.030-over to 0.060-inch over. The big reason I believe is to unshroud the valves. Not that long ago, another mentor, David Reher told me pretty much the same thing. Just food for thought.

Take care man...

Wayne

[69 Post Sedan]

Wayne, it took me a while to decide whether to build a 427 or the CE motor that is in the car. I decided to run the 402 for multiple reasons but the most important one was when I found out from a previous owner that when he bought the car in 1975, this motor was in the car.

Kurt <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif

Hey Kurt...
Thats' cool. Can you keep me (us) in the loop with the project? I'd like to see more. Sounds like a <span style="text-decoration: underline">really</span> neat project!

Wayne <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif (to you too!)

[VintageMusclecar]

Kurt;

I just happened to have an original 402 L78 piston &amp; pin out in my shop. I just checked the weight on it with my digital scales: 833 grams for the piston and pin. (The 2287F's in your engine now are going to be even heavier than that, but I couldn't track down the exact weight on them)

The first KB piston (9948) checks in at 832 grams for piston &amp; pin.

The second (9949) checks in at 901 grams for both, but note that it's a .580&quot; solid dome piston. That big knot of aluminum on top does add weight, but you can have them lightened up for a nominal fee.

For comparison's sake, a JE 258207 piston (44 c.c. dome) comes in at 799 grams for piston and pin. As you've probably already found, unfortunately they're not listed as available for a 4.165&quot; bore, and they're ~$400 more expensive than the KB's anyways.

I just did some quick calculations on KB's website; the 9948's would give (approximately) 8.53-1 with a 119 c.c. chamber and 9.2-1 with a 110 c.c. chamber. The 9949's would give 10.6-1 @ 119 c.c and 11.7 @ 110 c.c.

At this point you need to find out what c.c's your heads are so you know how much dome you're going to need, then you can go from there.

Eric

p.s. re: sizes--I have a set of KB's here now that were dead nuts on the money for size. fwiw.

[Chevy454]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 69 Post Sedan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am still having a real problem with finding good pistons for my 402.

Does anyone have any recommendations on another piston company to contact for custom pistons? I realize it's not a standard piston but holy cow I don't want to buy their company...I just want 8 pistons made. </div></div>
Custom pistons and cheap will never be found together, *that* I can promise! LOL!!

CC your heads, and then you can get serious about a piston search...

[69 Post Sedan]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hotrodsled</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey Kurt...
Thats' cool. Can you keep me (us) in the loop with the project? I'd like to see more. Sounds like a <span style="text-decoration: underline">really</span> neat project!

Wayne <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif (to you too!) </div></div>

Will do Wayne!

[69 Post Sedan]

The 077 heads are being cc'd as we speak. From the factory are they are 118cc. They have been shaved but very little so I am thinking they are in the 117cc range but like I said, I should know within a few days.

I have a response from KB and they said that the 9949 pistons with a .040 gasket the compression is around 10.7 and with a .070 gasket it would be around 10.1.

Thanks, Kurt

[Chevy454]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 69 Post Sedan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 077 heads are being cc'd as we speak. From the factory are they are 118cc. They have been shaved but very little so I am thinking they are in the 117cc range but like I said, I should know within a few days.</div></div>
Don't be surprised if they're actually *bigger* than 118cc, even after a slight cut. The virgin 840s/291s I've done have all measured way big...stock spec was 108cc, but they'd come in anywhere from 110cc-112cc. Being as the 077s were over the counter race heads they might have a more accurate advertised size, though...<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif

[69 Post Sedan]

Rob, that's good info to know.

Thanks, Kurt <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif

[69 Post Sedan]

Just another update. I bit the bullet and ordered pistons with 1/16, 1/16, 3/16 ductile/moly rings from Ross. They will take 3 weeks but it sounds like they are worth it. My 077 heads were 112cc. The combo will be right around 10.4:1 compression.

I also called Comp Cams and ordered their Xtreme Energy XR274R solid roller cam kit. It's a special order because the cam I wanted is 11-770-9 which is a solid core and the only thing available on paper was 11-770-8 which is a cast core. http://www.compperformancegroupstores.co...;Category_Code = (http://www.compperformancegroupstores.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&amp;Store_Code=CC&amp;Product_Cod e=11-770-8&amp;Category_Code=)

All in all it sound like this package will work good for what I am doing.

Thanks for all the comments, replies and help. BTW...keep them coming. Kurt

[markjohnson]

I think you made a very wise camshaft selection. That's actually one my leading choices in a current build.

[69 Post Sedan]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: markjohnson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think you made a very wise camshaft selection. That's actually one my leading choices in a current build.</div></div>

It was a toss up with two cams. The one above or 11-771-8. CC thought that the 770 cam was better for me.

[69 Post Sedan]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chevy454</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Custom pistons and cheap will never be found together, *that* I can promise! LOL!!

CC your heads, and then you can get serious about a piston search... </div></div>

Rob, I took your advise along with many others. Here are the Ross pistons I ordered. I hope they run as good as they look!!!



http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn2/brkyard/1969%20Chevelle/100_3356.jpg

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn2/brkyard/1969%20Chevelle/100_3366.jpg

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn2/brkyard/1969%20Chevelle/100_3362.jpg