Ebay POP [Archive] - The Supercar Registry

05-10-2010, 04:01 AM

And the seller is none other than Bill Clemens formerly of Chevycraft in beautiful downtown (maybe not quite downtown) Lubbock, Texas. Didn't Bill "find" Buddy Holly's '58 Impala in a junkyard, or bought it from a friend of a friend who found it in a junkyard? And didn't he discover a one of "X" L89 headed 1970 <span style="text-decoration: underline">LS6</span> Chevelle (wanna bet it came with a "proper" Protect-O-Plate)? And...And...And...forget it. What more can I say?

Wayne <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/rolleyes.gif

Tarrytown SS427s

05-10-2010, 04:06 AM

It comes down to the buyer educating themselves on things like this before buying a vehicle, as I don't see the sale of this stuff ending anytime soon. I don't care how good a reproduction is, there are always ways to prove the authenticity of real items and disprove the fakes.

kwhizz

05-10-2010, 04:33 AM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tarrytown SS427s</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It comes down to the buyer educating themselves on things like this before buying a vehicle, as I don't see the sale of this stuff ending anytime soon. I don't care how good a reproduction is, there are always ways to prove the authenticity of real items and disprove the fakes. </div></div>

I agree...................That's why "Documented" history is so important to really validate these rare cars that magically appear........

Ken

737Driver

05-10-2010, 05:56 AM

Any and all of Bill Clemens P-O-Ps are easily and quickly detectable under scrutiny. He has been in the Corvette game a long time. If you know what to look for, it takes only a minute.

Mr70

05-10-2010, 09:23 PM

I think there is some confusion in this topic..
Bill Clement was infamous for among other things,the B/J Buddy Holly '58 & the Al.Head LS-6 Chevelle @ChevyCraft in Lubbock Tex.
Jim Clemens is the ebay seller being discussed here in Florida.
They are not related..

737Driver

05-10-2010, 09:36 PM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr70</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think there is some confusion in this topic..
Bill Clement was infamous for among other things,the B/J Buddy Holly '58 & the Al.Head LS-6 Chevelle @ChevyCraft in Lubbock Tex.
Jim Clemens is the ebay seller being discussed here in Florida.
They are not related.. </div></div>

Thanks for clearing it up, Rick. I meant Bill Clement in my previous post, but, it would apply to both. I have nothing against either and have purchased some great literature from Jim over the years. I think his P-O-P service is great and I bought one from him in the past because it is a deduction if you don't have one for NCRS judging. Thing is, they <span style="font-style: italic">ain't gonna</span> fool anyone that knows what to look for and that's a good thing.

05-10-2010, 10:21 PM

Whew. My mistake.

Thanks for clearing it up. My apolgies.

Wayne

Belair62

05-11-2010, 03:15 AM

Never understood why the NCRS is OK with fake POP's and build sheets and re-stamps. In fact it seems like it is encouraged. Oh well. Some things never change.

old5.0

05-11-2010, 03:45 AM

737Driver

05-11-2010, 06:24 AM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Belair62</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Never understood why the NCRS is OK with fake POP's and build sheets and re-stamps. In fact it seems like it is encouraged. Oh well. Some things never change. </div></div>

Bob,

NCRS is not OK with and does not encourage trying to fraud a vehicle with fake P-O-Ps, Build Sheets and re-stamps. You are commenting on something you don't know anything about. I don't recall the last time I saw you involved with NCRS.

You are one Hell of a great fellow, but, stick to subjects you are familiar with. If it were not for the NCRS, the rest of the hobby would be at a disadvantage on knowledge about the items you mentioned above. The NCRS has done more than any group to educate its members, and others, on realizing what is real and what is not.

I don't mean to start a pissing contest but, how involved with NCRS are you? Why do you pretend to know what NCRS does and does not stand for? Come on down to Charlotte, NC for the National Convention in July. I will pay for your yearly membership, entry fee to the National meet and you can stay in my room (yes, double beds <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif) and I will personally introduce you to some of the best folks you will ever want to meet. It will, I'm sure, clear up some of your unsubstantiated, unwarranted and uninformed misconceptions.

Take care and, call me if you have any other questions about NCRS. Oh yeah, I love Camaros, Novas, Chevelles AND big Chevies too. No Bullshit...come on down to Charlotte and let me introduce you to a whole new set of great people than can give you an education.

Come on, Bob, talk is cheap. This would make a great write-up in July on this website. The article could read, 'I went with Mark and here is what I saw, witnessed and so on...This is what I experienced first hand...' Most likely, you would write...'I had a hard time keeping up with Mark and his buddies...' <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/BelairSucks.gif

Regards,

Mark
859-612-9121
Mdonnally

Belair62

05-11-2010, 06:56 AM

Well Mark, I never got into NCRS. All I know is what I read. And if you are into NCRS like it sounds I would imagine you call out all the fake POP, restamped blocks etc that you can pick out in under a minute as you say ? Let's hope so. I wouldn't really care to walk around an NCRS meet with you but thanks. Sounds like fun. Why don't you educate us all right here and tell us how to pick out a fake POP ? Maybe you can show us the one you bought and point out the differences ?

737Driver

05-11-2010, 07:16 AM

Bob,

You know, full well, I'm not going educate you or anyone else about what is real and what is not here on this website. I've said...come on down instead of running your mouth about things you know nothing about. It would be fun, as you have said, but, you would rather throw stones instead of going to any trouble to learn about things you know nothing about.

I hesitate to get into it with someone who is as popular as you about a controversial subject but, so be it. What have you read, specifically? Tell us all, specifically, what you know about NCRS. You have already said you never got in it but you somehow know what they stand for, how they think, what they know. Please enlighten us. I've got the courage to come to this site and involve myself and enjoy myself among fellow Camaro enthusiasts. I have never seen you post on the NCRS site. Have you ever posted there?

Bob, please accept my invitation to come to Charlotte. Come on down and meet fellow enthusiasts, like yourself. I truely believe you can clear up some ignorant, uninformed misconceptions. If you do, I believe you will be honest enough to write about your experiences here for the membership.

Regards,

Mark

Belair62

05-11-2010, 07:47 AM

Running my mouth ? If you read my post it says "Never understood why the NCRS is OK with fake POP's and build sheets and re-stamps. In fact it seems like it is encouraged. Oh well. Some things never change." I don't think that is throwing stones at the NCRS is it ? By your own comment about your purchase of a fake one because they "deduct" for not having one I have to ask you since you are an expert.Why did you feel the need to buy one ? Why do they deduct for NOT having a POP ? It seems like you are pretty much forced into buying a fake one if you are not in posession of an original and are after those big points. I don't know what they "stand for" Mark and I don't really feel the need to visit the site when I could just ask here. Why don't you be the ambassador for the NCRS and clear up the ignorant and uninformed ? Do they deduct for a known fake POP ? Do they deduct for a known restamped block ? Do they deduct for a fake tank sticker ? As for my "popularity" that is really irrelevant and also questionable !!I haven't been around in 2 years. Let me ask you one simple question...if there is a 435 horse car at an NCRS event with a fake pop, a fake tank sticker, a restamped block, and just a beautiful "numbers matching" car...how would that car score at an NCRS event ?

737Driver

05-11-2010, 08:05 AM

Let's take it one step at a time.

Expert=X(unknown factor) spert=(drips under pressure)

NCRS asks for a POP because they were included in the new car delivery paperwork as it exited from the back of the assembly plant.

That is why they deduct because NCRS judges Corvettes based on how the car was delivered and it was delivered with a POP.

If you do not have the original you can either buy a reproduction POP or take the deduction for not having one.

You do not feel the need to visit the site because you would rather blather about things you know nothing about.

I don't need to be the ambassador, I have invited and offered to pay for you to experience NCRS firsthand.

If, in the opinion of the judges, they feel the block is restamped, a deduction will be divided between the pad surface and the stamping(s) itself.

Tank stickers are not asked for nor judged during judging but, there are several knowledgeable folks that will readily offer an opinion on any and all paperwork. Please, if you have any paperwork you would like to have observed, bring it to Charlotte.

No...you are a popular fellow here, and rightly so. Why you haven't been around in two years is none of my business...I'm glad your back. Why don't you come to Charlotte and tell me what you want me to know.

As for your last question, if the unit appears original, NCRS will judge it based on that appearance. With that being said, it would be difficult to pass off anything other than an original during National NCRS judging. If you know, specifically, one that has, please let us know...specifically.

Belair62

05-11-2010, 08:22 AM

Mark....so far you have insulted me on each post on this subject. I'm not running my mouth, blathering or any other BS that you are writing here. But thanks for your responses anyway. Fake POP, re-stamps, fake paperwork are just an invitation to fraud and in my uninformed opinion, has no place in the hobby. The average shmuck out looking to buy a decent car is not as brilliant as the experts and will take the fake crap at face value. Be it a Top Flight car,a Chevette or a Rambler. I think that was the intent of this thread.The EBay ad states.."THE DISCERNING CORVETTE COMMUNITY SINCE 1988. BACKED WITH YEARS OF NCRS JUDGING HISTORY AND A MEMBER OF NCRS SINCE 1979" That's why I questioned why NCRS was so willing to accept...but I guess it is the discerning car owner who would rather present fake documentation than take an honest deduction.

kwhizz

05-11-2010, 08:25 AM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Belair62</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mark....so far you have insulted me on each post on this subject. I'm not running my mouth, blathering or any other BS that you are writing here. But thanks for your responses anyway. Fake POP, re-stamps, fake paperwork are just an invitation to fraud and in my uninformed opinion, has no place in the hobby. The average shmuck out looking to buy a decent car is not as brilliant as the experts and will take the fake crap at face value. Be it a Top Flight car,a Chevette or a Rambler. I think that was the intent of this thread.The EBay ad states.."THE DISCERNING CORVETTE COMMUNITY SINCE 1988. BACKED WITH YEARS OF NCRS JUDGING HISTORY AND A MEMBER OF NCRS SINCE 1979" That's why I questioned why NCRS was so willing to accept...but I guess it is the discerning car owner who would rather present fake documentation than take an honest deduction. </div></div>

x10

Ken <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/flag.gif

737Driver

05-11-2010, 08:34 AM

Bob,

Quit whining about being insulted. What are you talking about? Quit being a victim. You are only a victim of talking about an organization and what they represent from a standpoint of someone that has NEVER personally experienced the organization.

Bring your judgemental backside to Charlotte and then you can speak with firsthand experience instead of secondhand rumor.

I'll give you a tour of the US Airways simulator training center. I promise, you will crash and I promise you will meet a group of people that can give you an education all the while you are returning the favor. I will show you some of the finest cars and people you could ever hope to meet...just like we have here.

Just quit talking and come on down. By the way, your PM box is full. Either clean it out or call me at 859-612-9121

old5.0

05-11-2010, 08:39 AM

I don't pretend to know anything about NCRS. I do, however, have a car buddy who was very involved with them years ago with his 62 fuelie car and his 65 396/425 car. He eventually bacame disgusted with the entire process, sold his 'Vettes, and now messes with 409 big cars.

We were at his place driking beer one night, and the conversation turned to 'Vettes. He said "You know, I think there may be more NCRS gold 435 horse cars than Chevrolet built in the fiirst place." Whether that's accurate or just the beer talking. I don't know. But I know there had to be something questionable there for him to give up on those cars entirely. I don't know, that's all conjecture, so take it for what it's worth.

737Driver

05-11-2010, 08:48 AM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: old5.0</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't pretend to know anything about NCRS. I do, however, have a car buddy who was very involved with them years ago with his 62 fuelie car and his 65 396/425 car. He eventually bacame disgusted with the entire process, sold his 'Vettes, and now messes with 409 big cars.

We were at his place driking beer one night, and the conversation turned to 'Vettes. He said "You know, I think there may be more NCRS gold 435 horse cars than Chevrolet built in the fiirst place." Whether that's accurate or just the beer talking. I don't know. But I know there had to be something questionable there for him to give up on those cars entirely. I don't know, that's all conjecture, so take it for what it's worth. </div></div>

Your friend is certainly entitled to his opinion. I do have first hand knowledge of NCRS and I would love to talk to him and invite him back. The folks in the 67 class are among the most well informed enthusiasts in the country and I would defend them all.

Please ask your friend to call me if he has any questions or concerns.

Mark
859-612-9121

PS-There is no such thing as a Gold NCRS 435 in as much as 'Gold' is associated with Bloomington and 'Top Flight' is an NCRS award.

old5.0

05-11-2010, 08:55 AM

I'm sure he still knows people in that world, but I'll pass your number on next time I see him. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif

Edit: He may have said Top Flight. This conversation occured several years ago, and I was half in the bag.

737Driver

05-11-2010, 08:59 AM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: old5.0</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm sure he still knows people in that world, but I'll pass your number on next time I see him. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif

Edit: He may have said Top Flight. This conversation occured several years ago, and I was half in the bag. </div></div>

Symantics...I'm hip, I can dig it. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/youguysrock.gif

Belair62

05-11-2010, 05:22 PM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 737Driver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bob,

Quit whining about being insulted. What are you talking about? Quit being a victim. You are only a victim of talking about an organization and what they represent from a standpoint of someone that has NEVER personally experienced the organization.

Bring your judgemental backside to Charlotte and then you can speak with firsthand experience instead of secondhand rumor.

I'll give you a tour of the US Airways simulator training center. I promise, you will crash and I promise you will meet a group of people that can give you an education all the while you are returning the favor. I will show you some of the finest cars and people you could ever hope to meet...just like we have here.

Just quit talking and come on down. By the way, your PM box is full. Either clean it out or call me at 859-612-9121

</div></div>

Whining , victim ? The only victim would be the guy who bought a car with a fake POP. No one questioned what a great group of car guys your members in NCRS are. I appreciate all your efforts to school me Mark. But I know enough thank you. And if I ever get down to US Air I will bring my son. He can land a 747 at Chicago Executive.

Kim_Howie

05-11-2010, 05:57 PM

COUPLE QUESTIONS, I HAVE A NEW CAR AND THE ORG MOTOR WAS BLOWN- UP UNDER WARR. THE MOTOR WAS REPLACED UNDER WARR. BY THE DEALER. I HAVE BEEN TOLD THAT THAT MOTOR WILL HAVE DEDUCTIONS BECAUSE IT NOT THE ORG MOTOR. IS THAT CORRECT?? NOW IF I HAVE A RESTAMPED MOTOR THERE ARE NO DEDUCTIONS. IS THAT CORRECT??

ORIGLS6

05-11-2010, 06:14 PM

It always appeared to me that the NCRS standards enabled a certain faction of the hobby/business to try and perfect the restamping process, then on to recreating documents. Yes, you see that type (maybe even the same people) in the Musclecar area now, but "in my opinion", mainly because the NCRS allowed it. I have friends in the NCRS and many of them don't like it any more than I do.
I'm a stubborn old goat but I still feel 'Real is Real and Fake is Fake'.

juliosz

05-11-2010, 06:35 PM

Kim, my understanding of the NCRS rules regarding your question are: You would receive a full deduction on the pad automatically if the casting date on the block was on or after the build date of the car. If the block was dated before the vehicle build date, the owner could stamp the pad with the correct information but would probably get a deduction for the lack of broach marks. This is assuming the pad was decked to remove the service pad stampings.

05-11-2010, 08:03 PM

Hey Kim...

You have an e-mail. Your PM box is full.

Wayne <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif

Kim_Howie

05-11-2010, 08:09 PM

I wish I could figure out how to put a picture up . I have a pic of my 66 mossport green 425 car. The pic was taken at the 1988 Bloomington Gold in Ill.

ORIGLS6

05-11-2010, 08:46 PM

Send it to me. I'll post it.

Enoch

05-11-2010, 09:22 PM

I have been in the restoration business since 83 as my full time profession. 80% is NCRS Bloomington Gold work. The only orginization that has a judging standard that comes close is the Through bred (SP?) for mustangs. The NCRS is the only orginization that has detailed judging manuals for each year car and those manuals are updated regularly. The hours of research is staggering.

ASLO they have printed materials to help educated people on restamps, fake paper work and trim tags. I have asked many time for help to ID a camaro trim tag or get a data base for GM stampings and the answer is always the same BS "we don't want the people faking the tags to get better." That don't cut it. If folks would have put the info out the fake tags would have been done. They did it for vettes and now everyone can tell a fake tag!!!

Also the corvette hobby has always been 10-15 years ahead of the rest of the GM muscle cars. So if the GM car guys are smart they should take the best from what the vette guys have to offer and put it to use.

Like allowing for factory documented CE block cars beng able to get top honners instead of promoting restamping. I have lots more to say on this subject but will stop there.

Rich

sYc

05-11-2010, 10:23 PM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Enoch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

.....Also the corvette hobby has always been 10-15 years ahead of the rest of the GM muscle cars. So if the GM car guys are smart they should take the best from what the vette guys have to offer and put it to use.

Like allowing for factory documented CE block cars beng able to get top honners instead of promoting restamping......

Rich </div></div>

That is something within the sYc we have tried to do. Example, a couple of years ago, at CVF, where Vette judges and their system was used, a member's Chevelle was not allowed a Gold Spinner because of a CE stamped motor, even though there was supporting documentation as to when/where/why the engine was replaced. The subject was discussed on this site, with the show manager involved.

al8apex

05-11-2010, 10:29 PM

^ seems only fair, at least to me ... ^

IF you had all the papers, the car is what it is

But I am not one of those that needs to have the hose clamps aligned correctly on his car ...

Don't get me wrong, I APPRECIATE seeing a car like that, I just can't imagine having that level of ambition ... <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

Belair62

05-12-2010, 01:30 AM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Enoch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have been in the restoration business since 83 as my full time profession. 80% is NCRS Bloomington Gold work. The only orginization that has a judging standard that comes close is the Through bred (SP?) for mustangs. The NCRS is the only orginization that has detailed judging manuals for each year car and those manuals are updated regularly. The hours of research is staggering.

ASLO they have printed materials to help educated people on restamps, fake paper work and trim tags. I have asked many time for help to ID a camaro trim tag or get a data base for GM stampings and the answer is always the same BS "we don't want the people faking the tags to get better." That don't cut it. If folks would have put the info out the fake tags would have been done. They did it for vettes and now everyone can tell a fake tag!!!

Also the corvette hobby has always been 10-15 years ahead of the rest of the GM muscle cars. So if the GM car guys are smart they should take the best from what the vette guys have to offer and put it to use.

Like allowing for factory documented CE block cars beng able to get top honners instead of promoting restamping. I have lots more to say on this subject but will stop there.

Rich </div></div>

See,now that is excellent information. If I am reading you correctly then the issue of fake docs, POP's etc are dealt with at judging ?? I would think ownes by now would be afraid to even present a fake POP to judges. Thanks to the Corvette judging standards there are a lot of very high quality , correct reproduction parts available that have fitment across Chevrolet's car lines.

Tarrytown SS427s

05-12-2010, 02:18 AM

Interesting discussion going on here. Just wondering, I understand the presence of a POP booklet being necessary for judging points, but does it go further to require that the numbers stamped on the plate must match the car?

427freak

05-13-2010, 07:25 AM

Great question. You only have to have the warranty book with A p.o.p. in the plastic bag in the glovebox or displayed. Most people find an orpahn booklet that matches the year of their car on ebay or from the swapmeet and put it in the bag. The NCRS knows that obviously every car does not have its original booklet. The plate and stamps are not judged. Some people get plates made for their car and usually let it be known that is it not the original. I have seen people asked to withdraw from the judging field for a fake trim tag and typically you will not get through a Regional or National event without a deduct for broach and or stampings. And no the NCRS does not encourage anyone to fake anything, it is as in life up to the owner of the car to be honest about the situation. If the current owner did not know about the issue and takes the car to get judged they will be educated when they leave. Much easier to pay to have the car looked at before buying then to find out on the judging field. Just my opinion from having my own cars judged and having a lot of Corvette nut friends.

427freak

05-13-2010, 09:51 PM

"and typically you will not get through a Regional or National event without a deduct for broach and or stampings"

I read this again today and realized I was up too late last night. I meant if the engine was a restamp they typically would not get through without a deduct. Sorry

Belair62

05-14-2010, 07:00 AM