I'm looking at a GTO tomorrow - NEED HELP

[Gear_Jammer]

I am going to be looking at a '69 GTO tomorrow and I need to get some help/suggestions on what to look for, where I can find the numbers on the block, exactly where the data plate is and anything else you may think of. It's an automatic with a hood tach and allegedly has a dealer installed AC. It's a hardtop and is supposed to be an all original solid driver car. It has 103K miles on it. The one thing I forgot to ask the guy is whether he has any documentation for the car. It's a dealer in a small town so my guess is that he'll have very little, if any, documentation. Obviously if it turns out to be something I'm really interested in I will have PHS do a report for me. I've already got the VIN and it checks out to be a real 242 GTO.

This will be the first GTO I've had a chance to look at, so any help/suggestions you can give would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

[firstgenaddict]

GET the VIN and call Pontiac Historical (Jim Mattison) and get the PHS docs faxed to you... If I am not mistaken it costs about 75-100 to get it within 24 hours or so. It will have the billing punch card which gives the history for the VIN with all the factory installed options listed.

[Survivor 69/Z28]

Gear Jammer is a very good friend of mine and we are both going to look at the car first thing in the morning. I am familiar with the Chevy's but not at all with Pontiacs. Are the casting #’s on a Pontiac motors basically in the same locations?
How about the rally wheels? Are these date coded like the Chevy's? I have the #’s for the quadrajet. If the carb has been changed are these hard to locate compared to others?
Anything you guys can think of that we need to go over on this car please let us know.
Maybe there are some certain parts on a 69 goat that are hard to find. Well, we want to make sure that this car has it so that we can make a decision soon.

Thanks for the help!!

[firstgenaddict]

Carbs are somewhat difficult depending... RAIV's etc are pricey.
Coded in same places for wheels rears cowl tags etc.
Engine Vin is low on the pass side beside timing cover, trans same as chev.
Alpha code stamped on pass front face of block.


Get over to the Performance Years Website and sign up for the message boards, if you have a poncho it is the place to get the lowdown, there are MANY VERY WELL INFORMED guys overthere and they are extremely helpful.

[firstgenaddict]

OEM RAM AIR parts are expensive if the car is so equipped and missing them, rears are pricey for dated saf-t-trac with good ratios.
NOS sheetmetal is THROUGH THE ROOF!

[StealthBird]

Lots of info to review, but just be forewarned, the odds of it being a Ram Air car are slim, about 1 in 8. Most all of the Ram Air and Ram Air IV GTO's were Judges. It's most likely a base 350 hp model. There's a slim possibility it could be a 2-barrel economy version too.

Posi was not standard on GTO's, so check the diff.

Engine code is a 2 character code on the front passenger side next to the water pump.
400 engine was WT (stick) or YS (auto)
Ram Air was WS (stick) or YZ (auto)
Ram Air IV was WW (stick) or XP (auto)

Block date is back next to the distributor.

Head casting is on the center two exhaust ports.
Auto trans - 16 or 62
Man trans - 48 or 62
Ram Air - 48
Ram Air IV (round port)- 722 on end exhaust ports

PHS is the ONLY way to be sure on options. Sounds like you found a GTO, but be careful of rebodies.

All the 1969's had the Endura bumper (some 68's were built with chrome noses). Hideaways headlights were optional.

The hood is reproduced, originals are always worth more.

The intake manifold was steel (RAIV was two-piece aluminum).

Quadrajet (auto trans) was 7029268
Ram Air (auto trans) was 7028270
Ram Air IV (auto) was 7029273

The Q-jets pull quite of bit of money if they are complete.

Hope this helps a little, and good luck! <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

[Survivor 69/Z28]

This great info! Thank you very much for the help!
Well, we are leaving now to go look. I am sure we will post some pictures later on.

[HEMIBEE]

the VIN on the engine is going to be on the RH (pass)side of the block in the front. next to the timing cover. Rich

[markinnaples]

How was it?

Pics?

[ohhawk]

Gear Jammer -

In response to your post in the cars wanted section a couple weeks ago I sent you a private message on a very nice '68 GTO I'm familar with (not mine) that is for sale. The message is about 2 weeks old and I don't think you have picked it up on this site.

Just FYI

[Survivor 69/Z28]

Gear Jammer and I went to look yesterday. It was an all day affair.
He has the pictures and all of the #'s. He will hopefully be posting them soon.

The engine is #'s matching and appears to have never been taken out of the car.
It is the base 350 horse 400, auto, non posi, hide away lights (works), hood tach, am/fm radio, ps, wood grain. I believe the color is called Liberty Blue. It is painted the correct color according to the data plate and has black interior. The paint looks nice. I also believe that all of the metal in the car is original. The trunk is amazing.
The car is all original other than a paint job and seat covers. It needs a lot of detail work under the hood and underneath. The chrome and wheels are also in really nice shape. Everything that car was born with appears to still be there. The car ran and drove great. So as far as pictures and price I will need to let Gear Jammer present those things. The price is a factor for basically a survivor type car with a repaint. The tiny dealer that is selling it knows absolutely nothing about classic cars. A matter of fact, they went and had the windows tinted. They said it of course needed that. LOL!!!!

Please let me know what you think a car like this is worth from my description. Of course you need pics for a better evaluation. But feel free to fire away.



Thanks,

[Gear_Jammer]

Guys:

Thank y'all very much for all the great info - it helped greatly when Survivor '69 and I went to look at it. Let me start this out by saying that I've been into muscle cars for over 25 years; however, I am far from an expert and don't know all of the lingo that I'm sure y'all use. As a result, please don't flame me for saying something that sounds idiotic below. I'm simply asking for y'all's help so that I can find a GTO. Let me apologize in advance for the length of this post, but I figure it's better to give too much info than not enough.

The guy that has it knows absolutely nothing about it and basically handed us the keys and told us to look at it for as long as we wanted to and to take it for a spin if we wanted (duh...no brainer there). Survivor'69 and I spent our sweet time going over it from head to toe. Well...it's a real numbers matching 1969 GTO. I could go on and on about it, but in short, it's a very original almost survivor car with a decent paint job. I checked both the VIN and the Date Plate and they both checked out as it being a 242 GTO made in Pontiac, MI in the 2nd week of April in '69. It's an auto 350hp car with 104K miles in Liberty blue (code 51) with black interior (code 258). It has hideaway headlights, a hood tach, factory AM/FM radio (not hooked up - aftermarket in glove box) and a dealer installed AC. It looks fairly nice from the top-side; however, it needs A LOT of TLC in the engine compartment as well as the entire underside of the car. It looks like a 41 year old car that's been serviced well over the years, but just never thoroughly detailed. It looks like one of the previous owners knew what he had and used the right replacement parts (i.e. AC Delco replacement parts, Packard plug wires). Both the hood tach and the hideaway headlights work. The headlight covers go up and down independently. I have to admit that I don't know enough about those to know exactly how they are supposed to work and/or whether this is common. The interior is in great shape. The front seats have been recovered, but it appeared to me that they were done with the correct covers as they were the correct Y design.

We don't think it had been started when we got there because it was early in the morning and the engine was cool to the touch (or as cool as it can feel when it's 90+ degrees outside). It started on the 3rd attempt, warmed up and went right back down to an idle at about 900 RPM per the hood tach. We continued to inspect the car while it idled and it continued to idle just fine (albeit a little high). We drove it for well over 30 minutes and it drove very nice. It's straight as an arrow and has nice power (some pinging at high RPM's) and the tranny feels pretty solid. The one thing that concerned us a little was that it was difficult to shift into L, but we got it in with a little movement of the shifter handle. It will hit a solid 2nd gear scratch. Our guess is that it has a 195 thermostat as it was running at about 200 after we'd been driving it for a little while with 1 or 2 10MPH, 20MPH, 30MPH &amp; 40MPH punches. I thought that was pretty good considering it was 90+ degrees outside. We couldn't get the heater to work. It came on, but the air wasn't hot. The belt to the AC was in bad shape when we first showed up to look at the car, so we took it off just to be safe. As a result, I have no idea whether or not the AC works. The owner said it blows cold.

Some of the codes were difficult to impossible to read because of the amount of caked-up grease, dirt &amp; grime, but we did our best. Here are the ones we found. Some may be partial because of the grease &amp; grime issue.

VIN# - 242379P297167
VIN# on block - 29P297167
Casting # on block - 0676027 YS
Heads - G with M below it and L_DN
Intake manifold - 97942?4
Carb - 29268WF_0699
Water pump - 979835
Harrison radiator
Hood # - B108
Front L fender - 4A11 G
Front L fender well - 5A18
Front R fender 4 B1 unsure about this one
We didn't pull of all of the beauty rings, but here's what we found:
Front driver's side wheel - 6[valve stem]15HN
Rear driver's side wheel - 1[valve stem]11HN
Spare wheel - 3[valve stem]19HF
Brake booster - ?60

Here are some of the pics I took:
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/ClownFaceKiller/1969%20GTO/Driverside.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/ClownFaceKiller/1969%20GTO/IMG_2656.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/ClownFaceKiller/1969%20GTO/IMG_2659.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/ClownFaceKiller/1969%20GTO/IMG_2662.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/ClownFaceKiller/1969%20GTO/Enginecompartment1-1.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/ClownFaceKiller/1969%20GTO/Enginecompartment-driverside.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/ClownFaceKiller/1969%20GTO/Enginecompartment-passside.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/ClownFaceKiller/1969%20GTO/Waterpump.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/ClownFaceKiller/1969%20GTO/IMG_2610.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/ClownFaceKiller/1969%20GTO/IMG_2613.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/ClownFaceKiller/1969%20GTO/IMG_2606.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/ClownFaceKiller/1969%20GTO/Front-under3.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/ClownFaceKiller/1969%20GTO/Front-under2.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/ClownFaceKiller/1969%20GTO/Front-under-driver.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/ClownFaceKiller/1969%20GTO/Front-under-pass.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/ClownFaceKiller/1969%20GTO/IMG_2578.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/ClownFaceKiller/1969%20GTO/IMG_2579.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/ClownFaceKiller/1969%20GTO/IMG_2580.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/ClownFaceKiller/1969%20GTO/IMG_2584.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/ClownFaceKiller/1969%20GTO/IMG_2618.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/ClownFaceKiller/1969%20GTO/IMG_2636.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/ClownFaceKiller/1969%20GTO/IMG_2631.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/ClownFaceKiller/1969%20GTO/IMG_2619.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/ClownFaceKiller/1969%20GTO/IMG_2626.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/ClownFaceKiller/1969%20GTO/IMG_2640.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/ClownFaceKiller/1969%20GTO/IMG_2651.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/ClownFaceKiller/1969%20GTO/IMG_2641.jpg

I've got more pics, but I think these are probably enough for y'all to give me your opinions of the car. Please feel free to let me know if you see anything good and/or bad about the car. I haven't bought it yet, so you're not going to hurt my feelings if you say it's a dump. Any info or opinions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[markinnaples]

That thing looks pretty sweet, and just the way I think most of us would like to find one. If the price is right, doesn't look like you could go wrong with that one. JMO.

[Dave Rifkin]

That car looks real nice to me; I don't think the engine compartment looks that bad. I think if someone spent a few weekends on that car it could be cleaned up real nice.

[firstgenaddict]

Great car in a GREAT COLOR! The engine compartment and chassis could be easily done using degreaser along with some soft brushes then safest rust remover followed up with BOESHIELD or cosmoline. I like the originality of the car.

[Gear_Jammer]

The one thing I neglected to mention above is that the dealer has it priced at $29,995.00. That seems a few thousand dollars high at the very least. Please let me know what you think about that price based on the above and/or what you think is a reasonable price. Thanks.

[mockingbird812]

GJ,

Decent looking Goat. Looks like Chevy's Dusk Blue hue to me (which I like). Pretty unusual color for a '69 Goat - at least I have not seen many. Not real up on the market for these - more of a casual observer at this point (somebody on this site - won't mention names Woj - has me (re)focused on the '68s!). Standard HP motor, auto tranny, non-posi rear, and add-on A/C don't help much. This car is a &quot;tweener&quot;....some originality, but with a repaint, so it most likely cannot be considered a survivor. Orig. engine (if not restamped), hood tach (if original), covered headlamps, and paint color are pluses. $30K IMO is fishing for a sucker. Market with these options in this condition is in $20K range, perhaps less. Lets let our resident GTO experts chime in.

Good luck!

[StealthBird]

Very nice looking GTO! Just some thoughts....

Are you sure it's non-posi? I realize the posi tag is easily obtained through a dozen different parts houses, but it's strange that someone would attach the tag when the car did not have posi.

Hood tach is a pretty rare option, you'll need PHS to verify. I did not see any pics of the gauges, would like to know if it has rally gauges verses idiot lights. Hood tachs have been reproduced for over 20 years now, and they're all junk. Cheap plastic housings, wrong size, cheap plastic faceplate, etc. Just in the past year, another unit was introduced that's a little better, but still cheaply made.

Hideaways should open simultaneously, not one at a time, and they of course should stay up when the car is shut off. They are vacuum operated, not electric, and these are notorious for having leaking vacuum canisters. The canisters are available repro, and I believe there are even rebuild kits.

The 1969 GTO and Firebird shifters were nicknamed &quot;slapsticks&quot;, and are ratcheting style shifters that functioned the same way as the 1968 GTO Dual Gate. Starting from &quot;L&quot;, you push forward, and to the right, and it will only go 1 gear up to &quot;S&quot;, then again 1 gear up to &quot;D&quot;. That's why the shifter slide cover around the shaft is oval shaped.

If you could, please check the heads again. There should be a two letter casting right on the center two exhaust ports, most likely a &quot;6&quot; and a &quot;2&quot;. The &quot;GM&quot; cast and the L_DN are on all Pontiac heads those years. The L_DN was simply a code for DAY/Night shift when the heads were cast.

The Rally II wheels were 14x6 on the 1969 GTO (actually on all 1967-1970 GTO's). There was a wider 14x7 Rally II wheel on the 1969 Firebird and Grand Prix, and they are quite rare. Can't find an &quot;HN&quot; code in my book, maybe I'm missing it....but the 1969 rims should be 14x6.

The correct engine code for the car should be YS, and considering the VIN matches, this car does have the original block. The 0676027 number is simply an engine unit number, and has no relation to the VIN.

Only PHS will verify how this car was born, and whether it was ordered with hideaways, hood tach, Rally II wheels, etc.

Liberty Blue is a great color! This color was also used by Chevrolet (Dusk Blue), by Oldsmobile (Trophy Blue), and by Buick (Twilight Blue). It really looks great on the GTO with the Endura bumper, and especially with the hideaways.

As for the overall price, it sounds a bit high at $30K. If it's a car you love, it appears to be worth it, but avoid this if you're thinking of flipping it. Personally, I think the car is flat out cool, but a bit high priced. Perhaps in the $24K-26K range would be more appropriate.

Hope this helps, and good luck! <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

[Survivor 69/Z28]

SB,
I do not think we are 100% sure it was non posi. We could not help but to burn rubber a few times and it did not seem like posi. But it very well could have been. I am use to the chevy's where the posi gets you a little more sideways. LOL!!

He has some really nice pictures of underneath the hood tach. The wires going into it looked original but like you said it could have been added 20 yrs ago. But they certainly blended in with the rest of the original wires IMO.

I am pretty sure it has the rally gauges as we were watching the temp gauge the entire time while it was over 90 degrees outside.

Mockingbird,
You had mentioned &quot;some originality&quot;.
I thought the car was &quot;mostly original&quot; with a repaint. I personally do no see original cars like this hardly ever. But if you see some things that we do not please let us know.
We are both far from experts <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

[Mr.Nickey Nova]

Very nice car indeed,great color blue also.The engine area doesn't look all that bad for car with that many miles on it.See if he will come down to around $25,000 range.Good luck,hope you buy it.

[GTO_DON]

I cant believe Im the only guy here that thinks you should walk away from that car fast. 1st of all its only a base GTO with an automatic yet [over 50k produced] and its driver quality at best. Air Condition added,hood tach probably added I doubt it left the factory with a posi as most base cars did not get it.Its got a dash cap over the original which will cost you over a thousand dollars to replace,wrong wheels as it most likely was a hubcap car with the spare being a HF wheel.104k on the odometer and its 30k!!! Most people i know would not even pay 20k for it to be honest. This is a real tuff market right now for GTO's. Does not look like a fair deal to me. You can do alot better.

[mockingbird812]

Hey Don - good to hear from you! I don't think there is anything to &quot;wallk away from&quot; - you just have to get it for the right price. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/naughty.gif <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif

[Survivor 69/Z28]

Yea, maybe he could do better. However, finding a possible car that is local is a big plus. Maybe if he does end up paying an extra $2k for it. Keep in mind that traveling and shipping will cost him ever bit of $2k. Another thing to consider that the negotians have not even begun. So he truly may be able to get this car for low to mid 20's.

[StealthBird]

Well, from my perspective, as I'm not a &quot;flipper&quot; or investor, my comment that I would be looking at $24K is based on whether or not I really loved the car. As I stated earlier, if you're looking to flip it, forget it. If you want a really cool looking Liberty Blue 69 GTO, with hideaways, I would think somewhere in the $24K range would be all I would pay, maybe get it for less (like $21K), but asking a seller to come down 30% on a $30K car is asking a lot.

Don, I hear ya on the price of base GTO's. The whole market has changed. Never thought I'd see a perfectly restored 1970 W-30 4-speed hardtop, the finest in the world, with rock solid documentation, two build cards, an absolutely flawless restoration, a car that took 1st place at the Olds Nats, and it didn't even crack $100K on a televised auction! According to Olds zealots, these cars were worth $200K all day in this condition, so the market has really fallen.

Good catch on the dash cover, I missed that one. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/wink.gif

It really boils down to getting the PHS. This could easily be a hubcap car, no posi, no hood tach, even an exposed headlight car that someone converted years ago. Not that &quot;converted&quot; items diminish the value, if you truly love the car, but this guy is asking top dollar at $30K, so you should expect everything, and be disappointed by nothing. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

[Gear_Jammer]

I appreciate all of your opinions and information. I am not a GTO expert. I'd like to think I know them decent, but obviously not as well as some of you.

<span style="font-size: 14pt"><span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">GTO Don</span></span></span> - can you please explain what you mean by it having a dash cap over the original? I can't say I know what you're talking about. Also, isn't it possible that the wheels are correct, but that the spare got changed out at some time? I am going to order the PHS report tomorrow so that I can see what it originally came with. Lastly, if it came with everything it has, would your opinion change on whether it's something to consider buying (albeit for a lesser price)?

Here are some pics that y'all have asked to see:
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/ClownFaceKiller/1969%20GTO/IMG_2573.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/ClownFaceKiller/1969%20GTO/IMG_2598.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/ClownFaceKiller/1969%20GTO/IMG_2597-1.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/ClownFaceKiller/1969%20GTO/IMG_2622-1.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/ClownFaceKiller/1969%20GTO/IMG_2623-1.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/ClownFaceKiller/1969%20GTO/IMG_2624-1.jpg

Please keep the opinions coming...

[RM Schimel]

I agree with StealthBird…it is not the time to try and flip these cars. The green 442 W-30 he mentioned is a good example. That car was clearly a 200K plus car just a couple years back but not in today’s economy. That was beautiful auto restored by Level One and well known. But with all the uncertainty in the economy currently and the cost of doing these cars correctly… you have to buy a car for passion &amp; not for profit today!

That’s just my opinion as well! RM

[Survivor 69/Z28]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RM Schimel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree with StealthBird…it is not the time to try and flip these cars. The green 442 W-30 he mentioned is a good example. That car was clearly a 200K plus car just a couple years back but not in today’s economy. That was beautiful auto restored by Level One and well known. But with all the uncertainty in the economy currently and the cost of doing these cars correctly… you have to buy a car for passion &amp; not for profit today!

That’s just my opinion as well! RM </div></div>

FYI: My buddy is just trying to find an old GTO to have some fun in. Not sure how we started on the topic of flipping cars, auctions, and W30's. But we sure value any help we can get.

[StealthBird]

Sorry, didn't mean to stray off topic! I just wasn't sure whether you were looking to flip the GTO, or to keep it. I was just making a point that prices have dropped, so be careful. The seller is asking a 2007 era price, and this is 2010.

As a comparison, there was just an immaculate, top notch restored 1969 Hurst/Olds on E-Bay, 2nd owner, listed in the H/O registry, full body off resto, all the tags and stickers in place, correct air cleaner, correct tires, fully detailed chassis, and it didn't even bring $40,000. Prices have tanked on those cars.

The hood tach on your 69 GTO does not appear to be factory installed. The factory &quot;big hole&quot; was round, this one appears to be egg-shaped, and I can see that someone bent the hood bracing in front to it to clear. It looks like an original harness. Also, original hood tachs had a rivet on the forward most part of the hood tach that went through the hood (plus the two studs I see in the picture). The rivet prevented theft.

It still looks like a nice car, if you can get it for a decent price. Again, check the head casting code on the center exhaust ports, they should be &quot;62&quot;, possibly &quot;16&quot;.

[Gear_Jammer]

Thanks a lot everyone - this was very helpful. I think y'all are correct and that it's priced too high, although I tend to disagree that it's worth under about $19K-$20K. I've decided to put this car aside and to continue looking for a nice GTO. I can always come back to this car if it's still around, which based on the current price and the seller's unwillingness to negotiate, it just might be. I've got a few other GTO's in my sights, so I hope y'all don't mind me making a similar thread on them when/if I get a chance to look at them.

Thanks again...

[69Tom]

Hard to tell from photos, but this one might be worth checking out. http://dallas.craigslist.org/ndf/cto/1751618630.html

[firstgenaddict]

Good GTO's are out there. 69-70 RAIV's are some of the most desirable cars. The 68 HO and RAI's are less expensive, but have the HI-PO cams and RA exhaust manifolds. (if you can find one)

[markinnaples]

Now you're talking; nice car from the pics, and a good price.

[TORONADOXS]

Don't know if you want a convertible, but search Fort Collins, Colorado Craigslist (sorry, I don't know how to link it). 1968, medium blue, hideaways and factory a/c, hood tach and 4 speed. Not mine, just noticed it.