1969 Camaro ZL-1 #51

[StealthBird]

Apologies if this is a rehash, but is this white ZL-1 going to pull the big bucks now that it has the original engine, even though the engine had a "catastrophic failure"? Does anyone know the extent of the engine damage, and what type of repair was made? I thought this car was discussed a couple years ago on this site, but couldn't find the thread.

http://www.mecum.com/auctions/lot_detail.cfm?LOT_ID=CA0810-96534

Just curious... <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif

[PeteLeathersac]

The way things read suggests the block consists of original and reproduced sections joined together..

<span style="font-style: italic">&quot;...the block and reproduced section machined to the closest possible tolerances and the two made whole by advanced TIG welding...&quot;</span>

Obviously the original section includes the stamped deck surface but the bigger the better also hopefuly it's larger than the other piece!.

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif
~ Pete

[al8apex]

&quot; With the real original block now back in the Camaro after almost forty years&quot;

&quot;...and now, of course, the real original ZL1 engine.&quot;

before it only had the ORIGINAL engine, now that ORIGINAL engine is <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic"><span style="text-decoration: underline">REAL</span></span></span>

so, the story tellers before were lying?

[Bob Jenkins]

all that &quot;CAD&quot; work done to the engine and a &quot;Caution Fan&quot; decal?
really?

[JIM]

Look Closely the Engine bay shot is from an orange or red car not that car !!!!!!

Jim

[m22mike]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JIM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Look Closely the Engine bay shot is from an orange or red car not that car !!!!!!

Jim </div></div>

Good catch.. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif
You can make out the right fender to fire wall attach point, to bad for the buyer, now he has to come up with his own &quot;Caution fan sticker&quot;... <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/crazy.gif

[x Baldwin Motion]

Not knocking the car or the confusion of wrong under hood photo, but please, let's proof read the ads...


&quot;The real original block, which had suffered catastrophic failure during a water burnout <span style="font-size: 11pt"><span style="font-weight: bold">on its maiden test </span>run</span>..&quot;

HIGHLIGHTS

<span style="font-weight: bold">- Original raced engine in the car &quot;</span>




it can't be both <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/hmmm.gif

[JIM]

If My memory serves me right this was the car that Reggie Jackson tried to sell at Barrett-Jackson the last year that they had a reserve with the Original Block in the trunk!!! He was Booo'd off the stage when he wouldn't drop the reserve and sell it for 600K, that was 2004 . They didnt show that on Speed !!!!!

Jim

[mockingbird812]

You are correct Chris!! Good pick up.

[GRB]

Buyer beware. Very aware! Read the new story very closely.

[Charley Lillard]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: al8apex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">&quot; With the real original block now back in the Camaro after almost forty years&quot;

&quot;...and now, of course, the real original ZL1 engine.&quot;

before it only had the ORIGINAL engine, now that ORIGINAL engine is <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic"><span style="text-decoration: underline">REAL</span></span></span>

so, the story tellers before were lying? </div></div>

They believed they had the orig block when it was selling at Barrett-Jackson. A SYC member had a block that was acquired from Lamar and were told it was from # 51. I put Reggie and the member together, the block was bought and repaired. At Barrett-Jackson a attorney called and said he had a client that had the orig block and that he had bought it from Lamar in the 1970's. Reggie then stopped the sale of the car to sort it out. He called Lamar and Lamar said he had several blocks for the car that GM had given him. He also said he still had the orig. one in his shop. Reggie then bought and repaired that one. He as spent a ton of dough trying to do the right thing. If there is any fault it is with Lamar..

[sYc]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: al8apex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">&quot; With the real original block now back in the Camaro after almost forty years&quot;

&quot;...and now, of course, the real original ZL1 engine.&quot;

before it only had the ORIGINAL engine, now that ORIGINAL engine is <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic"><span style="text-decoration: underline">REAL</span></span></span>

so, the story tellers before were lying? </div></div>

They believed they had the orig block when it was selling at Barrett-Jackson.<span style="color: #FF6666"> A SYC member had a block that was acquired from Lamar and were told it was from # 51. </span>I put Reggie and the member together, the block was bought and repaired. At Barrett-Jackson <span style="color: #FF6666">a attorney called and said he had a client that had the orig block and that he had bought it from Lamar in the 1970's.</span> Reggie then stopped the sale of the car to sort it out. <span style="color: #FF0000">He called Lamar and Lamar said he had several blocks for the car that GM had given him. He also said he still had the orig. one in his shop.</span> Reggie then bought and repaired that one. He as spent a ton of dough trying to do the right thing. If there is any fault it is with Lamar.. </div></div>

Wow...so who's on first? <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif

[396L35]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sYc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wow...so who's on first? <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif </div></div>

Albert Pujols!!!!

[Salvatore]

Ryan Howard!!

[StealthBird]

Charley, let me recap your information....

- Reggie had #51 since the mid 1990's. He buys what he thinks is the original block from an SYC member, who says it was bought from Lamar. Then he puts the car up on the B-J block in 2004.

- An attorney calls and says Reggie's car does not have the original block. The true original block is still in Lamar's shop, but it is seriously damaged.

- Reggie pulls the car from the B-J auction as bidding stalls at $600K.

- Reggie buys the original damaged block from Lamar, spends a ton of money repairing it, and that's what we see today going to 2010 Mecum.

- Reggie holds the all-time strike out record at 2,597 <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/naughty.gif

[Canuck]

&quot;Reggie pulls the car from the B-J auction as bidding stalls at $600K&quot;

I think the car was pushed off stage,Reggie didn't touch it!


Does Lamar have two sons, Ron and Robbie, or is ther just one block or are thre two Reggie Jacksons's?

Stay tuned for the tent to collapse at Mecum.

Paul

[StealthBird]

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/haha.gif

[JIM]

Too Be Continued Same Bat time same Bat Channel <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/haha.gif <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smirk.gif

[iluv69s]

This story might be better than the green 270k cowl tag sale that Reggie was involved with at BJ a few years ago.

It seems simple to me. Which block has the original VIN???

so this car now has undisputable provenance as an 'original motor' ZL-1 ???

[olredalert]

------This is just me sayin, but, Im thinkin there arent #s on either block. Just Lamars say so. Lot of money spent just on someones recollections. Hope that doesnt sound like Im impuning his rep, but I know how bad my memory is about stuff from back then, and Im willing to bet that I have a bunch less to remember than Lamar.......Bill S

[GRB]

When Reggie originally bought the car from Walden for a reported $250k (a lot of money at that time) wouldn't Reggie have been informed that Walden still had the ORIGINAL block? The ruined (?) supposed ORIGINAL block would have been worth far more to Reggie than Walden. Does it make sense that a savvy buyer like Reggie would not have gotten the old ORIGINAL block for $250k???

Is it even conceivable that the GM rep. would have knocked the serial number off the block rather than return it to GM who would have far more interest in the failed block than the ser. no.???
Follow the $$$$$.

[old5.0]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GRB</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Is it even conceivable that the GM rep. would have knocked the serial number off the block rather than return it to GM who would have far more interest in the failed block than the ser. no.???
Follow the $$$$$. </div></div>

I never understood that story. Writing the number down on a piece of paper sounds like a lot less work than attacking the block with a sledgehammer.

[Plowman]

The G.M. rep. job was to slegehammer the block,so NOT to see the block come back under G.M. warranty ever again! That is how it worked at the dealer I worked at.

[markjohnson]

It was only an injured engine block to all parties involved back then and was it was cheaper to replace than to fix. Nobody ever dreamed it would be a crucial component of an automobile worth several hundreds of thousands dollars later 30 years in the future. As far as Reggie/Lamar, there's a lot more to that story than what might seem obvious to the casual observer. Lamar has not deceived anybody.

[GRB]

&quot;Nobody ever dreamed it would be a crucial component of an automobile worth several hundreds of thousand dollars later 30 years in the future&quot;. That about sums it up.

Remember what you've always been taught; believe half of what you see and nothing you hear.

[Canuck]

I lived in Newfoundlandd up until 1975. In 1969 there was a auto-train derailment involving about 75 new GM cars. These were mostly 69 full size Pontiacs and Chevrolets,Biscaynes Impallas.
About 20 cars had major damage such as crushed roofs,the remainder were minor damage, yet all 75 cars were sent to a local wrecking yard and ordered destroyed by GM. Everybody panel was to be piered by a pickaxe,glass was smashed and upholstery was ripped with an ax,all transmissions were sledgehammered as were the blocks,bumpers were cut in two with a torch as were frame sections. The yard paid nothing for the cars as GM were satisfied there was nothing left to sell. I am sure GM insurance or CN insurance paid for the cars. I viewed the yard about a month after the cars were&quot;destroyed&quot; and saw a suprising number only had one or two axe marks on them. Rumor has it that the yard owner,after the insurance guys axed about a dozen cars,took the crew out for a few beers,got them real drunk and told they his guys would take care of the rest. A token axe hit on a few selected cars and the job got signed off as done.
A friend of mine bought one of the 350 blocks out of one of the full size Chevs and had it repaired. The damage was not bigger than a small quarter size piece near a water jacket. He ran that engine in a 67 Camaro for about 5 years.

Paul

[x Baldwin Motion]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: old5.0</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GRB</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Is it even conceivable that the GM rep. would have knocked the serial number off the block rather than return it to GM who would have far more interest in the failed block than the ser. no.???
Follow the $$$$$. </div></div>

I never understood that story. Writing the number down on a piece of paper sounds like a lot less work than attacking the block with a sledgehammer. </div></div>


I missed that part of the story. ?When the motor blew first time heating the tires GM sent someone out to hack the numbers off the grenaded block? Why does this sound peculiar? Was that common practice for warranty replacements? I better throw another shrimp on the barbie.

[PeteLeathersac]

No idea how it worked then but in a previous life I was a Service Mgr. for a GM dealer in the 80's and when the reps visited our dealership they'd have a list in hand of warranty parts from all transactions since their last visit..
The rep would go down the list and randomly choose items saying I want to see this part, that one and another one etc and I'd have to produce them within a few minutes complete w/ warranty tags hanging on them showing the pertinent claim #'s etc!.
We were organized and honest w/ our claims so never a problem producing whatever they chose so happy w/ the outcome they'd always say 'toss the stuff and everything else' and I would...seldom saving anything!.

Love to hear more of the story as you know it Mark...please PM me if it's not something you feel comfortable posting..

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif
~ Pete

[old5.0]

I'm far from an expert here, and I'm not saying anything against Lamar, because I don't know him. I'm just saying the story is wierd.

What I've read is that the dealer warranty manager knocked the corner off the block so he could take it back to his office and write the number down. That makes no sense to me, but I've read that exact story 4 or 5 times from different sources. Now that's probably second, third, or even fourth hand information, so if it isn't accurate, I'll be happy to shut up. If it is accurate, it either is fishy, or that was the dumbest warranty manager who ever lived.

[Charley Lillard]

Since GM gave him the car I don't see anything unusual if they gave him extra blocks. And I don't see a warranty rep making him destroy blocks..

[iluv69s]

The original short block from ZL-1 #34 was apparently replaced under warranty. The block was never damaged inside and even less was it 'intentionally damaged by a GM rep' or scrapped. It actually ended up in a roundy-round car. When I found it, it was painted completely orange with Moroso valve covers and it had the big offset oilpan, gear drive and all 454 guts.



the VIN on the #51 block would have been down by the oil filter...the original VIN was barely noticable on block #34....I doubt any GM rep. would have even looked for it or even known if it was there. And I seriously doubt any GM rep would have 'intentionally destroyed' any parts.(although I guess it is possible)

[yenkme]

I thought the world watched Ron Pratt buy the ZL1 for 850K

[Charley Lillard]

I think Ron bought it for 800K but when the attorney called and said his client had the orig block Reggie put the sale on hold until it could be sorted out.

[iluv69s]

Not to change the subject, but the ad states that there are 4 or 5 ZL-1's with the original motors...that must be an incorrect number. I know of atleast 5 that have the original motors. I am sure there are more.

#1 (per Charlie L)
#17 Ive seen motor myself
#34 I previously owned
#25 per conversation with owner
#40 I beleive a member here owned the original motor..(dont know if it is with the car now?)does HBC still own the car?
I assume that the original low mile blue RS has orig. motor.Don't know what number car that is off hand.
Also the car owned by a member here 'Eddie'..does that still have the orig. motor? Don't know that number either.

That is atleast 7 cars right there..and with Reggie's car that would make 8...I assume there must be others out there.. ????

is there a list?? i dont think Ed C keeps track anymore.

[mockingbird812]

Colin C. sold (Mecum Auction) a D Blue one a couple years back that, as I recall, was stated to have the original engine.

[csx289]

Yes, I sold #18 in Oct 2005. It wasn't a statement, it had its original engine. Charley had owned #18 as well.

[ORIGLS6]

Orange #16. Not in the car, ......... but sitting close to it. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif

[Charley Lillard]

I owned #'s 18 and 30, both had orig engines. The blue RS now has it's orig engine. The engines for #'s 3 and 26 are out there but not with their cars. # 1 now has it as I understand it. Also a orig paint Lemans blue ZL1 has it's orig engine but I don't know the #. The block for # 57 is also out there but not in the car yet.

[iluv69s]

So to recap::

cars with original engines:
1, 17, 18, 25, 30, 34, #51?,
blue lo-mile RS(#?),
orig. paint LB car(per Charlie)(#?)(is that Eddie's car?)

cars with original engine known to exist:

#3, #16, #26, #40, #57

that makes possibly 9? cars with orig. motor and 5 more with motor possibly available to be mated with cars someday.

Does anyone else know any info. on orig. motor cars?

Charlie, So the blue RS at one point did not have it's original motor?? what number ZL-1 is the blue RS??
max

[m22mike]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ORIGLS6</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Orange #16. Not in the car, ......... but sitting close to it. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif
</div></div>

And possibly the most desirable one out there.... <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/drool.gif

Mike

[69 Post Sedan]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: iluv69s</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what number ZL-1 is the blue RS??
max </div></div>

#55?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_j4fSS7EADE

[SSRSBOB]

The blue RS ZL1, #55 was touting its original engine at the auction on a little cart behind the car, but I have it from a very good source that the engine that came with the car is not the original. The vin stamp did not match up with other known originals......

Bob

[ORIGLS6]

Click here (http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&amp;Number=213877&amp;page=1) and go to post #213887 by Charley for the explanation on the original engine.

[GRB]

It is a myth that GM gave away any ZL1s. I too was told that and believed it until I saw proof that it was not true. They did not give any ZL1s away and the invoices are available online. Also, back then, it was not uncommon for some people to have all the same numbering tools as GM. Some still have them! Follow the money.

[Charley Lillard]

Where are the invoices ?

[William]

http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt65/JJZ109/ZL-151001.jpg

[Charley Lillard]

Now where is the invoice for # 14.. :-)

[William]

Do not have that one.

I do have #15, significant because it was Dick Harrells race car. It is noted &quot;Stock #1717 Paid 5-28-1969&quot; and has the address of his shop. I have also seen the paperwork for Grumpy's '69 Pro Camaro. Not a ZL-1 and also not free.

A word or two about Mr. Walden. When we did our ZL-1 resto in the '80s I learned he had some OE blocks available. I did not know him but called and we did a deal over the phone. For a reasonable price we received an excellent used block that needed nothing. Later on he sent an NOS amp mounting plate for us to reproduce. He was a fine man to deal with.

[Charley Lillard]

But where are the invoices online as mentioned above ?

[olredalert]

-----Its probably just me, but why couldnt a ZL1 be given away even if there was an invoice, or any other GM car for that matter. All of them had paperwork that denoted what they would have cost if sold. The paperwork was probably generated no matter what......Bill S

[William]

You need some perspective on Chevrolet in the ‘60s. Everyone should read these books:

Chevrolet = Racing?

By Paul Van Valkenburgh. He worked in Chevrolet R &amp; D in the ‘60s. In the 320 pages there is virtually no mention of drag racing. It is briefly noted: “In the field of drag racing Chevrolet has been even less concerned with any specific individual or team activities.” They did do some evaluation on one of Jenkins cars but didn’t learn much from it. Chevy had tremendous involvement with stock car racing, T/A racing with Penske/Donohue, sports car racing with Jim Hall/Chaparral.

The author had some involvement with Tony DeLorenzo, at the time an amateur racer. Never mind that his father was a GM VP, he had to buy his L-88 Corvette from a Chevy dealer. Their normal parts source was junkyards. For the ’71 season they bought a pair of Bud Moore Mustangs. Quoting the book: “Just how much Chevrolet racing support can there be when two such insiders buy Fords to race?”

Best Damn Garage in Town

By Smokey Yunick. 640 pages, zero mention of drag racing. The consummate insider, Smokey was there at the birth of NASCAR and was involved with R &amp; D well into the ‘70s. There are some amusing comments about the Hemi 302. A constant theme throughout the book is how cheap and difficult Chevy was to deal with.

The Unfair Advantage

By Mark Donohue. There is no better source for perspective on what dealing with Chevrolet was like. The Penske/Chevrolet relationship was so bad by the end of ’69 they switched to AMC Javelins for the 1970 season, a ballsy move considering Penske was a Chevrolet dealer. Same theme as Smokey: cheap and difficult to deal with. When their ’67 Camaro was damaged in a trailer wreck it was rebuilt with junkyard parts. When they wanted Chevy to air freight improved engine parts direct to a track Piggins refused stating “We aren’t involved in racing.” All they did was win back to back championships for Chevy but couldn’t get someone to send them some parts.

On a Clear Day You Can See GM

By John De Lorean. No specific mention of racing. But when De Lorean took over as Chevy General Manager February 1969 it was in poor condition, losing money and market share.

The Gibb Chevrolet/ZL-1 Camaro story is well-known. In interviews many years ago Gibb stated the option price more than doubled by the time the cars were being delivered. He couldn’t pay for them and if his store was GMAC financed, he could only sell them under GMAC supervision. When the depth of the problem was realized Chevy took 37 of them back to Norwood for re-distribution to other dealers. When they still did not sell, Chevy granted discounts to get rid of them. The #3 ZL-1 was discounted and finally sold July 1970. At no time did Gibb ever state that anyone was given a ZL-1 Camaro. His #1 race car was paid for, Harrell’s #15 race car was paid for. Bill Jenkins went to a dealer and bought a ’69 Camaro SS L-78, later installing a ZL-1 engine from a production ZL-1 Camaro.

It is entirely possible a dealer may have provided a ZL-1 Camaro to a racer under some kind of arrangement other than outright purchase. Chevrolet had no interest in drag racing. Given all the history by people who were there it is impossible for me to believe Chevrolet &quot;gave&quot; anyone a ZL-1 Camaro.

[markjohnson]

Some great books mentioned here! The &quot;Chevrolet-Racing?&quot; book is rare and can be expensive and hard to find sometimes but it is a great read, even if they don't get into very much Drag Racing detail, which was a little bit of a disappointment for me. The 3-Volume Smokey Yunick book set is an absolute MUST-HAVE item for any and all Chevrolet fans(or ANY racing fan for that matter). I actually enjoyed reading his World War II exploits in the first book than the racing stories! One of the books mentions several neat inventions that Smokey came up with like a bellhousing supercharger that used the pressure plate as an impellar with a hidden pipe up to the air cleaner but my favorite item was his clutch-less Hurst shifter. Get this.....it was a slightly larger Hurst Shifter that through a simple system of cams &amp; cables, disengaged and re-engaged the clutch as the shifter was operated! Does that sound neat or what!?

[William]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But where are the invoices online as mentioned above ? </div></div>

Don't know. Much of the ZL-1 documentation available came from COPO Connection, no longer in business.

[GRB]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But where are the invoices online as mentioned above ? </div></div>

I have the E-mail that was sent to me about 2 years ago. I'll do some digging and when I find it I'll forward it directly to you. I also have a hard copy if I don't find the E-mail. Give me a few days.

[PeteLeathersac]

The above invoice and more are posted on the CRG site..

http://www.camaros.org/copo.shtml

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif
~ Pete

[SBR]

High bid of 400K. I am a little surprised that the ZL1 and the 68 yenko Camaro that Reggie had did not do better.

[njsteve]

Do you think his name attached to a car's lineage actually seems to be lowering what people are bidding on them, lately? Whenever I see one of his cars go up for auction, they never seem to sell and people seem to be very cautious about bidding. Or are his reserves just set too high?

[Charley Lillard]

I was at the auction. Both cars are neat and yes they both could have more correct restorations but in the overall price to buy one, the cost to correct items isn't that big of a deal. Where else is there a red 68 RS Yenko for sale ? I just don't think this was their big musclecar auction. Lots of other type cars. White on a ZL1 also isn't probably most buyers first color choice. There are not alot of high dollar supercars bringing big money right now. I think Reggie sold 6 cars with several being done with &quot;the bid goes on&quot;

[Dayton]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was at the auction. </div></div>

I saw you on the block when #51 went across.
Dana asked you,
Dana: &quot;Do you want to by it?&quot;
Charley: &quot;I don't have any money&quot;
Dana: &quot;Your napkin is good&quot;