71 COPO Nova LS6

[KNAPPY]

Whats up with this?


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260759012924&ssPageNam e=STRK:MEWAX:IT

[Tenney]

Painted aluminum heads?

[Mr. Chevy]

I'm not "buying the farm" here.. I don't know of any LS6 that came with AC... Unless a vette had it, I'm pretty sure it was not an option on a 70 Chevelle... Plus I NEVER heard of an LS6 motor in a Nova from the factory..

Why is the car white now?? Who would repaint a fathom blue car white??? That is a beautiful color, not that white is not but....... They really went to a lot of trouble to cut the white paint into the body jams.. Where is the smog system?? It surely would have that, wouldn't it??

There is something about the trim tag that just does not look correct to me either.. Paperwork looks authentic but then again anything can be duplicated today... Where are the front fender louvers and engine displacement emblems on the front fenders?? I don't think in 71 the fender louvers were put on the Novas.. Possibly 1970 front fenders & whole core support/front clip??

No disrespect to the seller, maybe I am totally wrong here & I'll be the first to apologize for my scrutiny, but I'm just not buying it.... Sorry... Just my .02

Rich

[MosportGreen66]

CLICK HERE (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_rdc=1&item=260759012924&ru =http%3A%2F%2Fshop.ebay.com%3A80%2F%3F_from%3DR40% 26_trksid%3Dp5197.m570.l1313%26_nkw%3D260759012924 %26_sacat%3DSee-All-Categories%26_fvi%3D1&viewitem=)

[1969z280]

I think it is way too unbelievable to fake. The seller says that it has always been in his family. I like the warranty exclusion on the sales contract. 12 bolt differential, painted aluminum heads (?) and air-conditioning make it hard to fathom. Wow?

[al8apex]

The Nova Guy ...

they are using the "shotgun" approach to spread the word on their Novas ...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/thenovaguy/4935026667/

http://www.cars-on-line.com/41347.html

http://www.novas.net/classifieds/showproduct.php?product=5306

http://www.collectorcarsforsale.com/2607...a/detailse.html (http://www.collectorcarsforsale.com/260733118706-chevrolet-nova-guy-1971-all-original-automatic-ps-pdb-clea/detailse.html)

http://www.collectorcarsforsale.com/2607...a/detailse.html (http://www.collectorcarsforsale.com/260733118706-chevrolet-nova-guy-1971-all-original-automatic-ps-pdb-clea/detailse.html)

older listings:

http://www.collectorcarpricetracker.com/media/auction_data/2009/5/30/260417263102/260417263102.pdf

http://www.collectorcarpricetracker.com/media/auction_data/2010/10/1/260667738689/260667738689.pdf

[Mr. Chevy]

I know a car flipper in my area who would tell you anything you wanted to hear or show you anything you wanted to see about a car just to make a buck and sell it!!

Something looks goofy with the engine stamp also...

Rich

[ORIGLS6]

I'm on your team Rich, and I'll even go further.

This is TOTAL <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/bs.gif.



(Just my opinion of course. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/wink.gif <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/whistle.gif )

[x Baldwin Motion]

the rear is....

code (BS) <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/hmmm.gif

[al8apex]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr. Chevy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not &quot;buying the farm&quot; here.. I don't know of any LS6 that came with AC... Unless a vette had it, I'm pretty sure it was not an option on a 70 Chevelle... Plus I NEVER heard of an LS6 motor in a Nova from the factory..

<span style="font-weight: bold">Why is the car white now?? Who would repaint a fathom blue car white??? That is a beautiful color, not that white is not but....... They really went to a lot of trouble to cut the white paint into the body jams.. </span>

</div></div>

After having lived in AZ for several decades I see cars that have been color changed all the time to a white, light tan,light yellow, etc

the dark colors just don't cut it with the sun, if the car existed in Florida all those years that COULD be what happened to it as well

a LOT of the options are unbelievable - a/c with a solid lifter engine? - but I imagine if COULD be possible, the 72 Corvette LT-1 had the a/c option added in late 72 ...

all that aside, it does seem to be an incredible story / car

IF it pans out to be the real deal, you KNOW it will disappear from ebay as the buyer will likely negotiate outside of the listing, it happens ALL the time and this seller has enabled it by providing their phone number ...

I am just saying, I can't believe it either but ... I have learned that odd things could happen ...

The LS-6 WAS avail in 1971 in the Corvette, I just thought that the drivetrain had to be &quot;certified&quot; for sale, not sure that the LS-6 in any car other than the Corvette would fly ...

[Bill Pritchard]

Even if this turns out to be real, if someone intends to buy it and show it, I sure hope they have thick skin.

[William]

It is hard to believe because it is known that GM shut this down after '69. All of the 427 COPO cars violated the GM edict of nothing larger than 400 cubes in less than full-size. The '70 Yenko Deuece was already in the pipeline by then and was just a 350.

The car would have to have been emissions-certified also.

[markjohnson]

I also agree about the emissions-certification problem also. The fact that there was NO BBC Mark IV engine even available in the 1971 Nova line really complicates things. It actually would have been more believable if this would have been a non-A/C, 1970 model instead. Anybody decipher the &quot;CPS&quot; engine code yet?

[Tracker1]

It amazes me that with all the knowledge that exists around these cars and the speed with which information can spread on the internet that people still try to pull this BS.

al8apex you have a PM

[1969L78Nova]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: markjohnson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I also agree about the emissions-certification problem also. The fact that there was NO BBC Mark IV engine even available in the 1971 Nova line really complicates things. It actually would have been more believable if this would have been a non-A/C, 1970 model instead. Anybody decipher the &quot;CPS&quot; engine code yet? </div></div>

According to NastyZ28 CPS is for 71 Nova LS6 with TH400 trans.

http://www.nastyz28.com/gm-chevy-codes/chevy-engine-codes-suffix-12.php

[Mr.Nickey Nova]

Another one of one car!!Chevy By The Numbers doesn't even list a CPS anywhere.There is a CPZ&amp;CPY listed under Chevelles and Monte Carlos only for 425HP LS6 engines.Corvettes are CPW&amp;CPX.Any one else have some input?? Novas only go up to(L48)350.

[WILMASBOYL78]

I would check with Tibor...he knows the skinny on all rare Novas <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/naughty.gif

wilma

[kwhizz]

Some people have &quot;NO&quot; shame...............But, what surprises me is how far up the stream these cars get......

[kwhizz]

Maybe a dealer install??

[mockingbird812]

Wouldn't LS6 in '71 be hyd lifters?

[markjohnson]

Nope . . . . . LS-6's always had solid lifters. Even with the compression drop in 1971, they still stayed with the same solid camshaft.

[Schonyenko2]

My only comment is, I agree with Cumby.

[mockingbird812]

You mean about the part that conservatism is the way to go? <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/hmmm.gif <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/naughty.gif <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/whistle.gif

[Bill Pritchard]

Boy, you just couldn't let that go untouched, could you Sam? <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/haha.gif

[Kurt S]

The GM letter is a fake. They couldn't tell the VIN before the car was produced. And if there's no warranty, then why have a POP?

[Schonyenko2]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mockingbird812</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You mean about the part that conservatism is the way to go? <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/hmmm.gif <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/naughty.gif <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/whistle.gif </div></div>

My good friend Sam. I'm not going to pervert this thread by delving into politics. But, I did find it interesting today to read an article that mentioned that in many right leaning states, that the push to enforce AZ. style immigration laws has been diminished by the business community. Seems they can't find anybody to work for 5 bucks an hour. Someday, those folks have to make up their mind if they're gonna run em back across the border, or haul em back up so they can get the cheap labor. But other than that, I think this car may have some credibility issues.

[Stefano]

I think the Mayor should be banned for beak'in the rules on discussing Politics. Some liberals just seem to think that they are above the law.

[kwhizz]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think the Mayor should be banned for beak'in the rules on discussing Politics. &quot;ALL&quot; <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'"> </span> liberals just seem to think that they are above the law. </div></div>


Fixed it for you..............

[TDW]

I don't think anyone at GM would type a letter that has all words starting with a capital letter. That letter is a joke.

[al8apex]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TDW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't think anyone at GM would type a letter that has all words starting with a capital letter. That letter is a joke. </div></div>

the same all caps theme was carried to the note at the bottom of the sales agreement

PT Barnum said it best ...

[Schonyenko2]

Well bless you're hearts.

[mockingbird812]

Ah it don't take much to get ol' Schonye goin'!<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/naughty.gif <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/wink.gif

No need to ban Schonye - way too much entertainment value!! <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/youguysrock.gif

[69 Post Sedan]

The auction ended early. Big surprise.... <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/rolleyes.gif

Kurt

[talwell]

That trim tag looks very suspect - the stamping depth appears way too deep and crisp for some of them while others appear acceptable.

Was GM ever known to create one off cars that were warranty exempt? How could this drivetrain have even been certified? Why would GM ever do this for this unknown person?

Also, given the pad stamp of T0212CPS - why would GM have assembled this LS6 motor in February given the production order clearance letter is dated in March? Does this mean that they were building and assembling these motors for the Nova application but not another is known to exist?

[Mr. Chevy]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: talwell</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That trim tag looks very suspect - the stamping depth appears way too deep and crisp for some of them while others appear acceptable.

Was GM ever known to create one off cars that were warranty exempt? How could this drivetrain have even been certified? Why would GM ever do this for this unknown person?

Also, given the pad stamp of T0212CPS - why would GM have assembled this LS6 motor in February given the production order clearance letter is dated in March? Does this mean that they were building and assembling these motors for the Nova application but not another is known to exist? </div></div>

There is just 1 answer to everything Todd, and that is that this car is all <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/bs.gif <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/bs.gif <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/bs.gif <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/bs.gif <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/bs.gif

You absolutely right about the trim tag.. That's what I was looking at.. Plus look at all the marking around the perimeter of it.. Looks like the original one was scraped off and this one put on.....

Rich

[ORIGLS6]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Schonyenko2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My only comment is, I agree with Cumby. </div></div>

That's truly scary, .......... no matter which side you're on. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/naughty.gif

[kwhizz]

Looks like this one fell out of the sky and right into the Toilet.............

[talwell]

Another issue that I see - didnt Chevy have a different heater box that they would use on big block cars that moved the AC components to the other side to allow clearance on the big block cars? This car the passengers side valve cover looks like it would hit given a hard launch.

The exhaust manifolds are not even drilled - at least he could have put on smog manifolds with plugs in them.

The VIN stamping on the front pad looks like it was done the day of the photos - shouldnt it be down by the oil filter anyway?

[copo-2]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: markjohnson</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Anybody decipher the &quot;CPS&quot; engine code yet?

1969L78Nova</div></div>According to NastyZ28 CPS is for 71 Nova LS6 with TH400 trans.


Many of us researh the web to gain knowledge of these cars, in this case a 454 LS-6 COPO listed for sale. Mark, among other issues, asks about the &quot;CPS&quot; code, in which, Martin list's a web page listing this code, CPS=1971 Nova with T400? CPT=1971 Nova with MT.

In doing this researh, some may be mislead in finding a reference in black &amp; white of such a code being made public for a particular application?

Wonder how long it will be before a 1970 &quot;CRS&quot; code Chevelle T400 with aluminum head's will surface? Several questionable codes exist for application's highly questionable? As was the case in the 1970 L-89 Nova discussion, there is a code for that application, as well,&quot;CKP,&quot; which coded out being a 1970 Nova T400? Upon further code study, a &quot;CKU&quot; (Manual) &amp; &quot;CKT&quot; (T400) code is listed for the 1970 L-89 Chevy11? Most of us realize that 1968 was the last year for the Chevy11?

Mark, in mentioning the LS-6 having solid lifter's, wouldn't that generator get to humming with the available 7,000 rpm shift's? Might we not get some straightened impellars if we could keep the belt on? You also mentioned the BB Nova ceased to exist as a regular production order car in 1970? More than likely, changes would need be made to accomodate the BB? Cumby, I agree with your analogy!!!

[442w30]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: talwell</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Was GM ever known to create one off cars that were warranty exempt? How could this drivetrain have even been certified? Why would GM ever do this for this unknown person?
</div></div>

I was under the impression that if a car wasn't registered with the AMA, then it wasn't certified to be built:

http://www.gmheritagecenter.com/gm-heritage-archive/docs/Nova/1971-Chevrolet-Nova.pdf

Can't say I've worded this correctly, but maybe someone can add?

[StealthBird]

There were actually a few LS6 Novas built by Jim Wangers Chevrolet (the same Jim Wangers of Pontiac fame) in 1973. Wangers bought a couple dozen LS6 crate engines and offered them as a conversion in the Chevelle, Nova, and Camaro. In Wanger's book &quot;Glory Days&quot;, he describes how he got into a lot of trouble with the EPA.

Jim Wangers complied with the EPA laws. He had buyers of LS6 conversion cars sign an affidavit stating that the vehicle would be used off-road only. In order to circumvent the strict EPA policy that a dealer could not tamper with ANY emissions devices on a new car, Wangers would have a buyer buy their car, drive it around the block, then bring it into the Service Dept. That allowed him to get around the strict EPA policy of tampering with new vehicle emissions equipment, because technically, the car was no longer &quot;new&quot;.

Then one day a young couple bought a new 1973 Nova 350, and had Wangers Chevrolet drop in an LS6. Under the terms of the agreement, the owners had to trailer the car off the lot, (which they did), and they signed the affidavit that it would be used for off-road use only. Wangers also took pictures of every LS6 conversion car he sold, sitting on the owners trailer, just to make sure.

But a few months later, the couple got divorced, and the wife got the Nova in the settlement. When she went to get it registered, it failed state inspection. She talked to a lawyer, and the lawyer demanded that Wangers Chevrolet buy back the LS6 Nova, or replace the LS6 engine with the original 350, then reinstall all the emission equipment. Wangers refused, citing he had the signed affidavit and an agreement that the car was to be used off-road only.

The lawyer contacted the EPA. The EPA was not amused, and after investigating, they fined Wangers $500,000 (around $4 million in today's dollars), which was an outrageous amount of money for a dealership to pay. Wangers decided to fight it.

The EPA was already upset with stories coming in from all around the country about dealerships removing emission equipment, from AMC to Chevy, Mopar to Ford. Many high-perf fans still wanted that pre-1971, high octane horsepower, and disliked EGR valves, charcoal canisters, and 87 octane unleaded. So the EPA decided to make an example out of Wangers Chevrolet. Wangers name was well-known in automotive circles, he was the father of the iconic GTO, and hard-core auto enthusiasts knew about Royal Pontiac from the 1960's days.

Wangers could not afford to pay $500,000, so he agreed to be a scapegoat for the EPA. For a much softer fine of $500.00, he agreed to reinstall the woman's 350 engine, and stop performing engine transplants. The EPA blasted the story across every media outlet they could find in order to discourage other dealerships from tampering with emissions.

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif

[talwell]

I located a picture of a 1970 396 Chevelle showing the AC components located on the other side of the heater box - I also am attaching a picture of this supposed LS6 Nova showing the AC &amp; heater box most definately from a small block car.

http://www.payko.com/nova1.jpg

http://www.payko.com/chevelle.jpg

[WILMASBOYL78]

If you look closely at the drivers side radiator support you can see the large round hole which would indicate an a/c vehicle.

wilma

[kwhizz]

Hummmmm!!!.........Maybe I need to get a POP and some paperwork for my &quot;Made&quot; L-89 car........It's a lot closer to real than these other 1 of 1 cars........LOL........

Ken

[Salvatore]

I would Ken. Then we can rake you over the coals! I have a one of one also. Its one, 1969 nova sitting in my one car garage. HA! I'm back!!

[Charley Lillard]

Talwell...A big block Camaro and I assume Nova would have the aluminum tube pointing toward the engine, not away like on the Chevelle.

[talwell]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Talwell...A big block Camaro and I assume Nova would have the aluminum tube pointing toward the engine, not away like on the Chevelle. </div></div>

Thanks for the clarification - I really hope that someone did not buy this car thinking they had found the holy grail.