first LS6 chevelle dilemma (muscle car review)

[black69]

I recently read the article on the first LS6 chevelle debate in mcr. I have to now wonder after reading it, how could the car in canada not be the first, if it actually has canadian-gm documentation. I notice the other car competing for the 'first rating' is built in december when LS6 engine production was to start.

I come away with thinking some folks do not believe in canadian records (thats how I take it), if they discount that canadian car as first, as I would think the LS6 option would be indicated in the records. It would be a big blow I think to canadian documented cars if some disregard that november car (outside of the engine build date issue).

[resto4u]

canadian docs have been faked. If you are buying a car with canadian docs, i would call george zapora to verify.

[Xplantdad]

Agreed...and there is speculation that the docs on the Canadian car that you are referring to aren't real...at least that's what I saw on Team Chevelle...

[Keith Tedford]

I think that this is may be the car that I talked to George Zapora about. Spend the money and get your own documentation on any car before buying it. Cheap insurance. Better safe than sorry as everything can be faked these days. If it is Oshawa built then it definitely isn't an LS6 car.

[black69]

For someone to thus call that canadian car a fake LS6 (and thus not the first), they would have requested their own docs on the car in question (directly from GM-Canada)? That sounds like the fair way to conclude it is bogus or not.

I hope over at team chevelle, that is spelled out over there, if it is truely that easy to request the documents yourself (bypassing any faking).

bob

[PeteLeathersac]

A Canadian delivered LS6 would be US built but info available from GM Canada Vintage services like other Canadian or U.S. built vehicles sold new in Canada..
Canadian info gets faked just like PHS does so sending for your own always best and cheap too!.

When considering Canadian delivered cars, after confiming the GM Vintage paperwork it's best to take a step back and reconsider all as rebody/air cars are more concerning than the fake paper game..
We've looked at a few examples here in the past where waving legit GM Vintage paperwork around seems to have sucessfully distracted reality and some of the cars still questionable?.

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif
~ Pete

GM Canada Vintage links...

http://www.vintagevehicleservices.com/forms/Option_73.45.pdf

http://www.vintagevehicleservices.com/options.html

[442w30]

Am I the only one who doesn't care about whether a certain car is the first or not? Certainly it would be hard to prove one way or another.

[mockingbird812]

Diego,

I find it fascinating. But maybe that is just human nature. It brings together a dose of sleuthing, evidence review, understanding factory practices, etc. In some cases, it brings additional value (if not satisfying curiosity) to a vehicle also similar to the last one made. Ultimately it adds to a better understanding of a particular car model/option.

[442w30]

Sam:

I think you've laid out a very interesting response - kudos to that! <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif

However, would you pay more for the car <span style="font-style: italic">perceived</span> to me the first one built? I, for one, would rather have one that's trimmed to my liking.

[mockingbird812]

<span style="font-style: italic">Perceived</span>...no. Actually...yes, particularly if it were a desireable car.

[442w30]

How would you know it's the first one built? Or the last? I assume it falls on the first day of production, but there's nothing saying another one was built before, right?

[mockingbird812]

Diego - because of Chevrolet records scarcity (GM of Canada excluded), or in some cases lack of existence, (or perhaps records withheld! <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/crazy.gif ) you may not be able to definitively determine a first or last car. But, thru establishment of registries and websites such as the supercar registry or Camaro Research Group, etc. you can build compelling cases with populated databases, research, survivor judging, and the like. People like Galen Govier (Chrysler Registry), Darrell Davis (Chrysler S/S) and Jerry Macneish (Camaro) have built incredible databases of factory practices and internal manufacturer memos and directives which can be a big help in determining a first or last car.

[SS427]

This car has been researched for many years and by many people. Before Fran Preve passed away he and Mark had a lot of communication both verbally and written. Prior to that Greg Carlson (the previous owner of this car as many well know) also talked with Fran as well as with Jim Mattison of GM. Fran held most of the Tonawanda records for engines and confirmed to Mark the time line of the LS6 production start as well as many other things. The original receiver of this LS6 was a GM zone rep (who is still alive) and was also told by the plant that this was the first one built. On the contrary, neither Mark, Greg or I have EVER stated this was the first one built only that it was the first known and publically documented car. The earlier car has been known about for at least 6-7 years but the general public had always passed it off as a possible fake. It was not until the MCR feature came out that some of those same 'general public' people changed their tunes and now say Mark's car is maybe not the first and likely just for the sake of argument. I will add that there are some very respected Chevelle people who have also looked at the records of the Canadian car and felt they were real. I respect the owner of that car and have seen the paperwork and still have concerns.

The one difficulty that many of us have are with all the other pilot cars, they were SOLD to Chevrolet Motors and shipped to a dealer to be picked up by a GM rep and used as a test mule and to introduce them to the other dealers. The other car is the only one I know of that was shipped to the Canadian dealer as a stock order and sold to the general public. Seems very odd that GM would ship a &quot;first of&quot; pilot car to a dealer as just another piece of inventory. Besides that, being it was the highest horsepower regular production muscle car made at that time, it also seems rather strange that an American auto manufacturer would ship that to a (Canadian) dealer instead of a US dealer. I personally have never said the car was a fake and if it turns out to be real, cool. However, it will rewrite how we look at timelines, documentation and how we perceive things to have been done by GM. A book could literally be written on the information that has been found, written, people interviewed, etc on Mark's car and the reasons why many have always thought it to be the very first one built. I am really getting tired of having to explain it and sometimes to the same people that argue just to have something to argue about and be heard. On the other hand, I have always said, never say never.

Could there be an earlier LS6? Hell yes, you would be a fool to think there couldn’t have been!!! However, and prior to the article coming out and after dozens of people researched it, no one has ever come up with solid proof of another. Now if you are still bored there are hundreds of pages of discussions on the net regarding the “Pilot car” but here is just one…………. http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=354114&amp;highlight=pilot&amp;page=2

[mockingbird812]

Nicely stated Rick. Thanks for the history lesson.

[ORIGLS6]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SS427</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have always said, never say never.

</div></div>

Or &quot;Always&quot;. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/wink.gif

BTW, a belated Congrats on the original article. Well deserved my Friend!

[old5.0]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SS427</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> A book could literally be written on the information that has been found, written, people interviewed, etc on Mark's car and the reasons why many have always thought it to be the very first one built. </div></div>

I'll take two copies. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/naughty.gif

[Xplantdad]

Perfectly said Rick...