ZL1 #9 Barrett Jackson - Where's Waldo

[prototype]

We all have our passions for the hobby and our intentions are noble, but sometimes our passions get the best of us. Based on discussions with Charley, George and I, it was agreed that some of the posts which were personal in nature, not respectful or specific to this topic will be removed or edited. Ultimately we felt it was in the best interest of the hobby, the site and our members to do so.

Steve Shauger



Summary: Outstanding total restoration of one of the rare factory ZL1 '69 Camaros. Very well documented including owner history from new and a very positive Cuneen Report. Recent service and detail to be as new and surely one of the best in existence.
Details: An outstanding example of one of the original COPO ZL1 aluminum block 427 Camaros, this particular car is #9 of the total production run of 69 cars produced. This car is very well documented from its original delivery to Fred Gibb Chevrolet of LaHarpe, Illinois, the dealer that spearheaded the original concept of an all-aluminum motor ZL1 Camaro.Included with this car is an amazing collection of historical documentation including the Dealers Shippers copy of the original window sticker, the customer copy of the original bill of sale, a copy of the Chevrolet MSO and much more. Having been through a very expensive, cost-no-object restoration, this particular ZL1 Camaro is "one of the finest in existence", exactly as it states in the accompanying Cuneen report by Ed Cuneen of COPO Connection. Only the highest quality components were used in this restoration with a strong emphasis on New Old Stock pieces instead of more readily available reproduction items. A GM factory assembled body shell was used to correct the extensive body modifications performed during this cars long term drag race history. Look beyond the show-quality paint, beautifully-fitted body and flawless-trim to see one of the most top notch Camaro restorations in the world. The workmanship employed to complete this car is the best you will find and the direction to recapture assembly line correct details is evident throughout the entire car, in particular with engine compartment and chassis assemblies. The Cuneen Report that is included with this car features extensive photography and a certification of numbered and coded components. While this car has been driven only a few miles since completion, it has been mechanically sorted and performs flawlessly with no issues needing attention. Offered here today by collector George Lyons of Erie, Pennsylvania, this 1969 ZL1 Camaro is stunning, highly documented, correctly restored example from this historic run of just 69 cars.


I've got three kids and spent a lot of time with the Where's Waldo books and I've got to say that after reading this auction description it's one in the same.

There is only one sentence that is buried in the middle of the description that leads one to believe that something is wrong. Why does it have to be a case of "buyer beware"? I just don't understand why a company the size of Barrett would risk selling a car with a description like this but I guess I can answer my own question.....money.

What happens if the purchaser challenges the description of a car like this? Would Barrett kick the car back to the seller and charge all of the fees applicable because they did not write the description or do they take responsibility (or possibly write the description themselves) and just return the car to the seller?

At the end of the day we all want these cars to be around and I have no problem with documented cars that existed being resurrected.

For crying out loud just call it what it is.........I feel like I'm back in kindergarten looking for Waldo.

[mockingbird812]

The description is very straight forward that the car has been rebodied. I do not see deception in this description.

[resto4u]

It does not say re-body either. It says a gm body was used to correct drag racing modifications. To me that means a good gm body was cut apart and spliced in at some place on the original body.

[GeorgeLyons]

I find it interesting that Waldo read the description and understood the disclosure but seems to think it is still not clear. Having received over 20 Emails and phone calls in response to this final description, I am happy to report he is the only one I have heard from that is confused. Thank You again for the positive comments on the car and please stop by in Arizona if you are able. Happy New Year, George

[prototype]

If I were a new guy interested in this hobby/business I'd appreciate a description that simply spelled things out. I've been around for a while and can "read between the lines", not everyone has that luxury though.

I think it was the Corvette guys that wanted to get to the bottom of whether their cars were correct or not and I believe the term "numbers matching" started. For me "numbers matching" meant that the motor was the original. This then expanded to the tranmission, differential and so on. Then descriptions got creative and sellers said to themselves well I looked at the casting number on the block and it's numbers matching (when the actual case was the motor was out of another car but the casting numbers are correct for the vehicle).

I've never seen this particular car and I'm sure that the quality of the work is top shelf but I just don't think it is fair to potential buyers when you have to read and re-read a description to understand what it is that you are really buying.......

For me the accepted term is a rebodied car.

[Steven J]

I agree with prototype. This sentence can be interpreted two ways.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A GM factory assembled body shell was used to correct the extensive body modifications performed during this cars long term drag race history. </div></div>

[iluv69s]

With all due respect to the owner of this car, besides the &quot;mincing of words&quot; in the description about the re-body, my opinion is that a completely rebodied ZL-1 is NOT &quot;one of the finest in existence&quot;.
I am glad somone else here has the courage to state thier opinion here. The description of this car fits more exactly like my old ZL-1 that I sold, car 34. Where all salvagable parts of the original car were kept intact when restored. In this case the easy way out was taken to restore this car. Simply stated, a rebody !!


And thanks to SYC for allowing all respectful opinions.

And to the owner..a very beautiful car and restoration !!! Good luck with the sale.

[Charley Lillard]

Prototype is correct. The car is a rebody as per Floyd Garrett yet it is not disclosed anywhere unless you want you hang your hat on &quot;A GM factory assembled body shell was used to correct the extensive body modifications performed during this cars long term drag race history&quot;. The only time I see George say &quot;rebody&quot; is when on the other thread here his initial post says it is NOT a rebody. The language used could mean that 1/4 panels etc were sourced etc.
Kim..Do you consider it one of the best ZL1's like advertized knowing it is a rebody ? If your best friend came to you looking for a ZL1 and showed you the Barrett-Jackson ad would you assume he was aware it was rebodied based on the language used ? Would you suggest he buy # 9 or would you tell him to look for one that is not rebodied. I don't mind rebody as long as it is disclosed. My opinion is anybody reading that language as rebody is reading thru rose color sunglasses.

[Kim_Howie]

Funny that bring that up Chas. One of my best friends sold a ZL-1 reboded car 5 years ago for 90,000.00. That car then sold at BJ. And was never said it was a rebody until just before it was sold. It brought 290,000.00 We didn't agee about that car. Again Fred someone new just getting into the car hobby doesn't buy a ZL-1.

[427.060]

I understand that George wants to get as much as he can for the car. I agree with Prototype. This part of the description is vague. &quot;A GM factory assembled body shell was used to correct the extensive body modifications performed during this cars long term drag race history.&quot; Does this mean that the entire shell was used or that this shell was used for pieces and parts for replacing or rebuilding the modifications to the existing shell? They guys on here that read the original thread know but not everyone that will be at the auction knows about this site. JMO
James

[bergy]

George - very strong opinions on this site - the higher the $$, the stronger the opinions get! In your previous thread concerning this car, it seems like you were going to investigate exactly where the donor body was mated to original sheet metal (if anywhere) and then let the community know your findings. This information would help folks understand if this car fits their definition of a rebody (lots of opinions on that subject).
Anyway - that's my 2 cents. It clearly is a beautiful restoration and IMO a car that definitely should have been saved. Best of luck at the auction!

[x Baldwin Motion]

some may find these threads confusing as the sellers original description is still out for all to see. He has posted this correction almost a month ago.

<span style="font-size: 14pt"><span style="font-weight: bold">&quot;My original research prior to my purchase was NOT correct on what was done to this car in restoration to correct both Drag Race modifications and rust damage. Another body shell, a rust and damage free Norwood shell was used in the restoration. Where this shell was mated to the numbered/dated cowl firewall is still something I am chasing and may have photographs soon to document this. Either way, the body is NOT what I originally was told or what I posted previous</span>ly.</span>


this info is also posted <span style="font-size: 14pt"><span style="font-weight: bold">&quot;...This is a car that was restored by Floyd Garrett and he will be the first to tell you he had to replace the body because the orig. was too far gone. He makes no bones about it....&quot;</span></span>

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&amp;Number=470251&amp;page=4

[quick-bowtie]

That description is a lawsuit waiting to happen! It can be taken alot of ways in my opinion and clearly doesn't state anywhere its a re-body and any good lawyer would tear that description to shreds. Who ever has enough money to buy it Im sure has enough money for a lawyer if he thought he was buying &quot;one the best&quot;.

Not a snowballs chance in hell I'd sell with that description because once the buyer finds out the whole story and gets lawyers involved the only ones that will be smiling when its all said and done is the Lawyers and Barrett Jackson. The seller will get caught up paying both buyer and seller fees to Barrett and get his car back plus have lawyer bills on top of it!

Not my car and I have no interest in it, so I don't care either way but as one car guy looking out for another Id seriously consider changing the description to save you some grief down the road.

[travlnz28]

A rebodied car should never exclude those words when it comes up for sale. The current owner would not have been surprised when he learned it, there would never be a reason for finger pointing, and would not lead to harsh words down the line on this site or in any courtroom. The most current description of #9 clouds the fact that it is a rebody. Plain and simple!! And yes, I have been told I live in a fantasy world where people are honest and don't let money taint their judgment.

[talwell]

I will chime in to also say that description is very deceptive to say the least. BJ should be ashamed to call a rebodied car one of best examples. I dont care how nice it is, the car is now a fully assembled tribute, clone or whatever you want to call it using the original parts from a ZL1 and the paperwork from that original car.

I would love to hear how they announce the car and talk it up while it is on the block. If they want to be honest not only will they announce that it is a rebody they will also explain to the bidders what that means. In my book it means it is no longer a ZL1 but a car built from the parts of an original ZL1.

[Mr70]

George
I don't know you personally,but through your replies on this great website,I've always had a certain respect for what you buy &amp; sell...until now.
I really think you coulda worded that one sentence a whole lot better and been alot more clearer with that one detail then that.That's the most nieve way to skate around saying something has been Re-bodied,that I have ever seen.Especially after 4 pages here on that earlier thread,of you taking us along with you as you find out it's true history &amp; telling us you'll be honest &amp; upfront about it,and that's how you describe it to potential B-J bidders?

I can't really find blame with B-J today,as even they listed it as a re-body a few years ago,so I would imagine you told them what to write today.........right?


<span style="font-style: italic"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Auction Co: Barrett-Jackson
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Date: January 14, 2006

Lot # 1322. S/N 124379N608879. Cortez Silver/black vinyl. 427-ci V8, 4-bbl, auto. 69 total produced, this is #9 of the 50 built for Fred Gibb to homologate for racing. Fitted with aluminum heads and ZL1 aluminum block—Chevy's first. A $4,160 option, COPO 9560. Originally it was a drag car, but was rebodied and restored to a high level. Well-known in Camaro circles, and blessed by Ed Cuneen, the Camaro COPO guru. Cond: 1.&quot;</div></div></span>

For the most part,there's nothing wrong with saving a collectible vehicle from the crusher by re-bodying it if there's no other way,but it's got to be publicly announced as such.

[Steve Shauger]

I would like to know how the car was represented to you George. We know that Floyd was upfront and very clear as to the car being a rebody, it was also clearly stated in the BJ description in 2006. Typically a rebody sells for significantly less than a real bodied car, and I assume this was the case when you purchased the car. You stated on 12/7 &quot;the car will be represented honestly when I become the &quot;seller&quot;. Is the updated description what you consider &quot;represented honestly&quot;.

[bergy]

I agree with you guys entirely. No one is shocked though when &quot;death star&quot; words like &quot;rebody&quot; and &quot;clone&quot; aren't used in marketing material. I'd just like to give George the benefit of the doubt - that the car will be represented as exactly what it is at the auction and on the block.
Heck - look at the LS-6 vert coming up at Mecum in FL - no &quot;clone&quot; words, but it sure looks like it if you read between the lines. &quot;Built to LS-6 specs&quot; could also mean that the factory built it that way.
BTW - the line up of cars at Mecum FL is spectacular! I know where I'll be!

[GeorgeLyons]

WOW, I took an afternoon off the computer to work in my garage and missed my murder trial and sentencing. Glad I got a phone call prior to my walk to the gas chamber.

Prior to yesterday I had finished my signage for B-J with a clear disclosure of the body replacement done by Floyd. I also have new photos; pre-resto, work underway and ones I took in dismantling the car recently. As always I expect to visit with potential bidders for the full week of display answering any and all questions and sharing all I have on the car. I previously listed my cell number on the post and have talked to three interested parties all of whom seemed to know about the body when they called.

I am more than a bit shocked by the accusatory nature of yesterdays posts but admittedly have witnessed this here before. I have stated I would sell this car honestly but apparently that does not suffice. I thought originally posting on this site was a good move but now question my decision. I will market and sell this car thru Barrett-Jackson exclusively from today forward.

Thank You,
George Lyons

[PeteLeathersac]

All happening here seems to really be about so much more than this specific car and/or owner so please stay on board George as everyone here's certainly not against you!.
If this SYC thread can continue on it really has the potential to be a much-needed clear and major signpost of direction and clarification for many serious cars and their values in today's world!.
Seriously, will there ever really be any better time and situation again w/ the stars lined up exactly as they are right here and now, those serious about these cars including owners and others w/ specific vehicle information also auction principals and a perfect subject car w/ stand-up owner...all here together on the new SYC!.


<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif
~ Pete

[Stuart Adams]

Beautiful car. Cool it was saved. To me ZL1's are very special, like GM's baby. I know, I'm weird.

[Xplantdad]

When George says he will be by his car answering questions...that's where you can expect to find him. That's where he was when he sold the yellow COPO... <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif

[the427king]

Commendations to Charlie, he didnt take the easy road that many sites take when a car up for discussion is a members ,he called it exactly the way he saw it . Very refreshing.

[markjohnson]

Unfortunately, it sounds like the #9 ZL-1 did not survive it's years of Drag Strip use and abuse and a 307 '69 Camaro (or something similar) was used as a substitute body to re-create #9. What would bother me is when the new owner sits in the car and thinks to himself &quot;Wow, this is a real ZL-1 Camaro that actually sat on Fred Gibb's famous lot and was blasting down Drag Strips back in 1969!&quot; Well, guess what . . . . it's not. The original car, hull or what's left of it is possibly still sitting behind a body shop somewhere waiting to be re-discovered when the current tenants move out and leave it. At B-J, you're actually sitting in Grandma's boring 307 Camaro that's had it's VIN tags swapped as a car it's not. On another note, I do know that one of the engines from one of the stolen new ZL-1's was recently recovered from a speed boat in the Ozarks and will be used to re-create one of the stolen missing Zl-1's and that a CE ZL-1 block is also being used to re-create one of the other stolen cars.

[John]

I think that you will find that George is not trying to hide anything he knows about this car.
The Barrett-Jackson description is basically a short description of the car being sold ... &quot;and is done to get buyers interested in each car.&quot;
None of the cars descriptions details everything about each car. George also invites all interested parties to meet with him at the car to show all the documentation and other information that he knows about the car .... prior to the car coming up for auction.
... How many people would buy a car of this calibur and bid from reading that description only ?
....( and not talk with the owner and inspect the car prior to bidding?
I believe in the end you will find a buyer that has met with George and is well aware of what was done to restore this car ... will be the winning bidder
... but what do I know.
.... Just my 2cents <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/Charley.gif

[kwhizz]

Congrat's to Charley for calling it for what it is.....and to George for calling it what it is.......That's what makes this the best car site on the net.....The knowledge base and tracking history that exists here about these rare cars never cease to amaze me.......and it's great to have a muscle car site that now allows the &quot;Scrutiny&quot; of these cars make it a little more difficult for a &quot;Holy Grail&quot; car to fall out of the sky and be &quot;Deemed&quot; a real car without &quot;Question&quot;..........Congrats to all involved........

Ken

[rubbinisracing]

George,

How was the car represented to you when you decided to purchase it? From your original post concerning the car it sounds as if you were aware of an issue or cloud over the car. I believe I know the seller and if I follow the threads correctly, rich p was the messenger who informwd him after his purchase at BJ that the car was re-bodied prior. Jude seems to be in a hurry to throw the gentleman from whom George bought the car under the bus. Maybe Jude knows more than he has posted, I hope that's the case. If so, I hope Jude will be more forthcoming and George will respond to my opening question. More than one persons credibility hangs in the balance here.

[NovaMob03]

Howard, my post was based on what was said here &amp; the initial thread, from George, when he told everyone he was taking it to B-J.

We know that Tom R/Jubilee previously auctioned it @ B-J with a sign disclosing the issue. Then, according to Rich, he told the new Dallas owner to 'read the sign' and that the issue was well known within the collector circle. Then go back to George's first thread, where he seems to not know about the issue &amp; is apparently told here, for the 1st time.
I simply stated that the previous owner was apparently not forthcoming with all that he knew and probably just wanted out. From my perspective, if a car of this caliber sells for 1/2 the value of other's you should assume there may be something fishy and use greater due diligence before purchasing.

[foster]

george very well said few of these menbers on this site gets a little finger happy!!!!!!!!! so i agree 110% with george who ever has not seen this car in person needs to go to BJ

[Mr70]

The theme of all this,is if George just came out &amp; said,<span style="font-style: italic">&quot;Ad should just say &quot;one of the finest re-bodied ZL1's in existence&quot;</span>,and not these BJ words,<span style="font-style: italic">&quot;A GM factory assembled body shell was used to correct the extensive body modifications performed during this cars long term drag race history.&quot;</span>

[Stuart Adams]

The mission statement is for the promotion and preservation of the super cars. Great site and a wealth of info.

I'm sure there are a lot of ghosts in closets.

The word rebody sucks, IMO.

Beautiful car, hope both parties involved are happy when it sells. That would be fantastic.

[Steve Shauger]

A point I would like make is not many cars are untouched survivors. I would estimate survivors account for less than 1%. The remaining 99% are cars restored to various degrees. A concours restoration on a car that is severely damaged from an accident, modifications or the elements is a huge task. It takes skilled craftsmen to resurrect these cars from the ashes. Simply using a donor body and grafting in VIN’s from the original car (which I define as a rebody), is the easy way out and obviously should be a last resort. What is clear in this discussion is that if you are purchasing a car that has been restored you need a detailed portfolio with pics of each step and phase in the process showing what has been done. In the example we have been discussing a full upfront disclosure by the seller would have prevented the 5 pages of posts.

I guess I like restorations the old fashion way, with skilled craftsmen resurrecting these cars, while maintaining as much original integrity as possible. There are no shortcuts when correctly restoring a car. And kudos to the restorers that have the ability, knowledge and skills to bring these cars back to life. There are many fine examples that are just breathtaking.

[Stuart Adams]

Well said Steve.

[Steven J]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fast67VelleN2O</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> when in reality the purchaser (if he/she were upset) should have done their homework. </div></div>

The seller has the responsibility to write an accurate, honest description of the car. Yes, the buyer should do some research in this greedy industry of muscle car fraud, but you can't just put it on the shoulders of the buyer to determine the legitimacy of the car.

Regarding the car in question, just what parts, aside from VIN and paperwork, are truly original to the car ???

[bergy]

I agree with the comments of Steve S. The problem is that so many of these cars have been restored without proper photo documentation - so what are we left to do? That's why I get focused on documenting previous owners, old photos, title history, etc. Either a good set of resto photos, or a contact list of old owners (or both) are needed to properly document a previously restored car - IMO.

[Big Block Bill]

Well said Charley,

I think: &quot;The ZL1 this thread is about so far is not being disclosed as a rebody yet. George hasn't told us yet how he is going to disclose it. You might all just have to come to Barrett-Jackson to find out.&quot; ends this discussion. Lets all just move on to a new topic (car) worth discussing.

Thank You,
Bill

[mockingbird812]

Wow, tuff crowd. I don't know George but some of you really seem to have it in for him. I still stand by my first post in this thread. George made it quite clear that he used another body on this car due to its race history. Don't think George has to do anything to his listing. If you are a potential buyer give him a call if you are not sure if it is a rebody!

[WILMASBOYL78]

I like Howie's approach...

No Questions answered on this site.
You have questions call me!

So, now that's cleared up...let's start a new thread about Tibor or Cumby...I don't care what we talk about...as long as we have fun <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/naughty.gif

[olredalert]

----Sam,,, I agree with your assessment. I do know George and have refrained from striking back at a few comments made here. George is an ethical person. I dont know anyone any more ethical. He will disclose any and all info that he has knowledge of to anyone. How am I sure enough of this statement to make it??? I know the man!

----I havent seen one poster here that has made a disparaging comment that I feel is a potential buyer, but I admit that maybe I missed a real customer in the middle here somewhere.

----Im not sure why anyone has a duty to tell someone else thats either unable or unwilling to buy a certain car anything about the vehicle unless they are doing research for a qualified buyer. With that said Ill return to just reading this relatively deplorable thread as confrontation doesnt make my day......Bill S

[quick-bowtie]

I wasn't bashing George or the car at all it makes no difference to me how he sell's his car.

I was just giving my opinion on the description.. basically saying Id think twice about it. And yes a Lawyer would tear that description to shreds &quot;IF&quot; the buyer didnt know about the car when he purchased it. You can say buyer beware or what ever else you want but that doesn't mean anything when a car is knowingly misrepresented and that would be pretty easy to prove in this case going by the description on Barretts website.

Im sure George will be out with his car and answer any and all questions about it and even have a sign that says something out being rebodied but what is read on stage or whats in the catalog is what matters if something bad ever came of it. All the buyer has to say is I didnt see any sign by the car?? I was going by the description and what was told to me on the block. Your decription is what you sign your name to twice once on your window card and then again on your contract, thats what is binding not some board you put in front of your car.

Has anyone looked at a Barrett-Jackson contract in the last 2-3 years? You pretty much sign your life away with your description and the boxes you check now. Notice how far fewer cars say numbers matching now? Notice how alot descriptions have wording that would have normally been left out if years past? Most auction companys are really starting to try to look out for the buyers now. &quot;CLEAR TRANSPARENCY&quot; is the word they use I believe.

If you have a &quot;REAL&quot; SS car with no documentation they want to announce it as an UNDOCUMENTED car now.

If you have a High Performance Car (L78, LS6 etc..) with no documentation they want to announce if as an UNDOCUMENTED Option.

If you check NUMBERS MATCHING on the consignment form and it turns out its not.. you buy your car back and pay the buyers and sellers fees.

Barrett-Jackson has stepped up in the last few years and are trying to watch out for B.S. cars, sure alot still get through but what you write and sign on the description and contracts can definately come back to bite you. There have been a few deals un-done in the past few years.

If Barrett-Jackson or the Rep. George is dealing with knows the car is a rebody and they are fine with his wording of disclosure in the description I'd definately get something in writing from them. Id rather see the word re-bodied in the description and the fancy fluff wording on a board in front of the car.

I would say 75% of the cars sold at auction are sold based on the description with the buyer never talking to the owner and alot are impluse buys with buyers having no intention of buying a certain car before it came on the block or even looking at it before hand. Im sure its a little different when your talking hundreds of thousands of dollars but either way those are odds I wouldn't want to take.

I was just trying to potentially save George some grief down the road.. Next time I'll keep quiet.

[Charley Lillard]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mockingbird812</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wow, tuff crowd. I don't know George but some of you really seem to have it in for him. I still stand by my first post in this thread. George made it quite clear that he used another body on this car due to its race history. Don't think George has to do anything to his listing. If you are a potential buyer give him a call if you are not sure if it is a rebody! </div></div>

Sam...Wouldn't you agree that it would make things much simpler, cleaner and most of the arguing would go away if he would just use &quot;Rebody&quot; in the description ? George did not use another body. Floyd Garrett did and he calls it a &quot;Rebody&quot; It is not &quot;quite clear&quot; until it is called a &quot;Rebody&quot; When it is marketed as a &quot;Rebody&quot; I'm sure we will all be rooting for George to hit a homerun.

[mockingbird812]

Charley - you are correct in that I mistakenly stated that &quot;<span style="font-style: italic">George</span> made it clear that <span style="font-style: italic">he</span> used another body...&quot; In my mind, George's use of terms regarding another body being used in the restoration are clear enough to me, that an average Joe would understand that this car does NOT have its original body. There is a relatively fine line between mincing words and telling the truth particularly when it comes to these high end cars (i.e. does numbers matching = original engine in our hobby?). IMO, George has not crossed into the realm of mincing words, he has merely used another selection of words to describe his car as not having been restored with the original body.

For the record: my comments are only pertaining to this thread.

[markinnaples]

I agree that the term &quot;rebody&quot; would be more accurate when that is what happened, so why not state it exactly as that?

On another note, why, <span style="font-size: 11pt"><span style="font-weight: bold">when properly disclosed</span></span>, is this (and to open another Pandora's box), are clones such a big deal?

The ZL-1, COPOs, and Z/28's etc. were just Camaro options, not specific cars hand-built or even have boxed sections like the torque boxes on Hemi cars. All they did was add options to a regular Camaro coming down the line, right? The options were only add-ons and could have been added to any 6 cylinder Grandma-spec Camaro on the line, no?

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/hmmm.gif

[Stefano]

This is not a discussion against George.

However, the main point is getting very diluted.

His first post regarding this ZL1 basically told us that he had researched and inspected the car and that 'basically&quot; it had no issues, and that it was NOT a rebody. &quot;The real Body&quot; are his words.

There are many here who knew and were told different, either directly or indirectly by Floyd Garret.

Then once questions were asked, we were told that all the info would be disclosed here, as well as properly represented at auction.

This discussion is taking place <span style="font-weight: bold">PRIOR</span> to the car going across the block and ownership changing hands.

[kwhizz]

Originally Posted By: mockingbird812Wow, tuff crowd. I don't know George but some of you really seem to have it in for him. I still stand by my first post in this thread. George made it quite clear that he used another body on this car due to its race history. Don't think George has to do anything to his listing. If you are a potential buyer give him a call if you are not sure if it is a rebody!

Sam...Wouldn't you agree that it would make things much simpler, cleaner and most of the arguing would go away if he would just use &quot;Rebody&quot; in the description ? George did not use another body. Floyd Garrett did and he calls it a &quot;Rebody&quot; It is not &quot;quite clear&quot; until it is called a &quot;Rebody&quot; When it is marketed as a &quot;Rebody&quot; I'm sure we will all be rooting for George to hit a homerun.


Not in reference to Georges car.......But....It seems a lot of cars in the past had their descriptions put together by Lawyers.......After you read it, you still didn't have a clear concise interpitation of what was being said......Like the 1966 Nickey Nova from a couple of years ago that (according to the factory window sticker) had 15&quot; tires from the factory and the &quot;Factory&quot; Nickey option.....LOL

[Steve Shauger]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mockingbird812</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wow, tuff crowd. I don't know George but some of you really seem to have it in for him. I still stand by my first post in this thread. George made it quite clear that he used another body on this car due to its race history. Don't think George has to do anything to his listing. If you are a potential buyer give him a call if you are not sure if it is a rebody! </div></div>

Hey Sam, just for clarification, George’s first post specifically stated the car was not a rebody and he had done extensive research to come to that conclusion. It was only through the efforts of this site (at this point we may be beating a dead horse) and the many posts which initiated the change in description. Some will argue the description is not clear enough now, but it should be very clear to everyone reading the many posts that it is a rebody. Again if it were not for this site and the threads/posts that have followed we may not have found out the extent of the &quot;restoration&quot;. George was concise, clear and convinced of what the car was initially; as well as very convincing. It is interesting how very clear it was made in the post below that the car was NOT a rebody or half clip. Why not make the new findings clear that in fact its a rebody now?

This is his first post selling and promoting the car:

&quot;Greetings All ! I have made the decision to consign my ZL1 to the January auction and would like the members to know my intentions and what I know of this car. It is #9 of the 69 produced, Fred Gibb car, Silver/Black Automatic. Outstanding very high quality restoration completed in the mid 90's, looks to have many excellent NOS pieces and a goal of assembly line correctness except for way over GM quality paint. <span style="font-weight: bold">I have spent much time researching this car to be able to represent it honestly.</span> I will specify a few points of importance but I welcome any inquires prior to the sale and I will gladly share all I have.
1. A real car with clear owner history from new, I have tracked it myself.
2. The real body, NOS quarters &amp; wheelhouses replaced from Drag mods.
3. A real ZL1 motor, NOT the original to the car.
4. Mechanically sorted by me, runs &amp; drives as it should.
5. Previously done Cunneen Report, very concise, very positive opinion.
6. Car did sell in 2006 at auction for over $450,000. Not relevant today.
7. Car needs NOTHING, killer just refreshed condition, appears as new restoration.
And let me clear up one thing before question arises: Yes, this is the car that was in a fire in the Midwest years ago. Building burned, car had damage but mostly cosmetic, paint etc. <span style="font-weight: bold">Car did NOT get &quot;clipped&quot; or rebodied, it got re-restored </span>and photos of building and car are available. <span style="font-weight: bold">Believe me, I did my research prior to writing my check I assure you.</span>So there you have it. Price ???? Who knows, we shall see. My gut is when the quality of this car is viewed it will do all a ZL1 is worth. This is a GOOD car.
Don't hesitate to contact me if you have interest or questions.
Thank You,
George Lyons
Erie, PA
814-450-0926&quot;

[olredalert]

----Im pretty darn sure you guys wont have George around here to bring all this stuff up to anymore. Take your problems up with him at B-J if you are so inclined......Bill S

[Charley Lillard]

Nothing else worthwhile is being said here. If George or someone with something constructive to says needs it unlocked they can contact me.

George says he has pictures that show details that he says he will display at the auction but not show here. Maybe it will prove his case, maybe it won't. The only reason I can think of that he won't post them here is because it won't prove his case. I hope it does but in the mean time I will make these threads &quot;sticky&quot; so they stay visible in the forums. I was informed this morning Jan 12 that local ads today don't even include the body shell disclosure.

[x Baldwin Motion]

“A GM factory-assembled body shell was used to correct the extensive body modifications performed during this car's long-term drag-race history”
It’s like Fonzie trying to say “wrong” - just say rebody.
https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Events/Event/Details/1969-CHEVROLET-CAMARO-ZL1-271809

[BCreekDave]

“A GM factory-assembled body shell was used to correct the extensive body modifications performed during this car's long-term drag-race history”
It’s like Fonzie trying to say “wrong” - just say rebody.
https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Events/Event/Details/1969-CHEVROLET-CAMARO-ZL1-271809

The phrase "GM factory-assembled...." seems to me to try to add some GM corporate level legitimacy or authorization to the rebody. It's not what you say, but how you say it.

[ANDY M]

Lovely discussion, but nothing that hasn't been beat to death here before.
Two observations: Please stop with the spelling out of the word quote. There is a "key" on
every keyboard that serves this purpose. (Yes, I have a degree in English).
Second, is there a good way to say "donor" body vs. Dynacorn repop body? The English
language is famous for finding ways to say "powerful organic substance" instead of "bullshit".

[Billohio]

Some reason quote gets spelled when the old messages are used in the newer messages. It does make it hard to read.

[Rsconv68]

I myself don’t care if it’s rebodied, as long as the original drivetrain parts are there. To me, if the car was missing the drivetrain, it’s not worth the same. JMHO.

[RichSchmidt]

IMO if the VIN on the dash don't match the hidden VIN the car is a fraud and should receive a new government issued VIN as a reconstructed vehicle. You can't stop someone from grafting an original firewall to a donor body but at least make that much effort. IMO if the original firewall is gone the car no longer exists.

[PeteLeathersac]

I myself don’t care if it’s rebodied, as long as the original drivetrain parts are there. To me, if the car was missing the drivetrain, it’s not worth the same. JMHO.
-

I’m of the complete Opposite opinion to this one, NO Rebody of any kind wanted here but an Indisputable Original 9560/9561 car w/ Missing Drivetrain would be a dream come true!
Replacement Drivetrain would be correct but NO Restamps…bring on the Real L78’s/Z28’s too!
:beers:
~ Pete

.

[Formula455SD]

I would rather have a "real" car missing its original drivetrain than a rebody with a numbers drivetrain. IMWO a rebody is a clone with a drivetrain and a vin swap.

[GMC_Typhoon]

Rebodied cars are fake. If I put a rusted out Typhoon VIN on a 4x4 Jimmy, I got a fake Typhoon.

[DW31S]

I’m not sure I’d consider a rebody (I’m talking a bonafide, legitimate, documented job) a clone. Is a rebody as good as an original? Of course not, but it sure is better (in my opinion) than taking a 123 (6cyl) and stuffing in an OTC ZL-1 and calling it a ZL-1. I firmly believe there is a market for a person who isn’t terribly wealthy or hasn’t hit the PowerBall to possibly own a ZL-1, or a ‘68 Hemi Dart, or something of the like. Let’s face it, the cars we are discussing were built to be raced, not pampered…they were never intended to be treated as jewelry. If changing the tub is the only way to save a rare car, then as long as it’s not done with malicious intent, and is fully disclosed, I’m OK with it. Now, I’ll play the Devil’s advocate…is it OK to knowingly misrepresent a rebody as the real thing years later and after some of the informed may have passed or retired from the hobby? No, and I say prosecute the perpetrator to the fullest extent possible.

[RichSchmidt]

So just how much of a car's original body shell must remain in order to say the car isn't a rebody? If someone restored a car using only the original cowl and firewall (thus never separating the VIN tag from the hidden VIN) and grafting it onto the original unrestored body of a car that was built in the same week on the same assembly line would that be o.k.?

[Z282NV]

So just how much of a car's original body shell must remain in order to say the car isn't a rebody? If someone restored a car using only the original cowl and firewall (thus never separating the VIN tag from the hidden VIN) and grafting it onto the original unrestored body of a car that was built in the same week on the same assembly line would that be o.k.?

It's pretty simple to me. Just disclose exactly what was done to the car and let prospective buyers decide for themselves what it is. This is possible where builders and or restores are still around. In cases where they are not then inspection by a reputable person(s) maybe the only way.

People keeping registries on high end significant cars can add notes into those registries to outline what has been done and when.

[FTC]

Interesting thread. I have a few questions, that basically ask for opinions on this whole subject. I was always under the impression that a "re-body" meant (on 1st gen Camaros for example), that the vin tag, and cowl tag was removed and installed on another, better condition body, for restoration purposes. I imagine even the partial VINs on the cowl and behind the heater are changed as well.

This of course has been discussed, debating the legality of it, because most states prohibit "any" tampering with VINs on any vehicle.... (stolen cars and parts worries).

Now, reading this thread, it seems that others consider a re-body any time even "most" of the body shell is used. But where is the line drawn?

What if you have a valuable COPO involved in a major crash, say t boned, or high speed crash into a pole sideways, or roll over crash. Rocker panels, floor, A pillars, roof, rear quarters,..etc,...all crushed beyond repair? Now, instead of gathering aftermarket parts, or paying through the roof for NOS parts, if you could find them,....you find a really nice Camaro with solid floors, rockers, quarters,.....etc,...and you decide to use all of this donor car, except for the firewall and cowl? What's the difference between removing all those original panels one by one and replacing everything separately, to the existing firewall, or attaching all those part complete in car form, to the existing firewall?

[Z282NV]

Interesting thread. I have a few questions, that basically ask for opinions on this whole subject. I was always under the impression that a "re-body" meant (on 1st gen Camaros for example), that the vin tag, and cowl tag was removed and installed on another, better condition body, for restoration purposes. I imagine even the partial VINs on the cowl and behind the heater are changed as well.

This of course has been discussed, debating the legality of it, because most states prohibit "any" tampering with VINs on any vehicle.... (stolen cars and parts worries).

Now, reading this thread, it seems that others consider a re-body any time even "most" of the body shell is used. But where is the line drawn?

What if you have a valuable COPO involved in a major crash, say t boned, or high speed crash into a pole sideways, or roll over crash. Rocker panels, floor, A pillars, roof, rear quarters,..etc,...all crushed beyond repair? Now, instead of gathering aftermarket parts, or paying through the roof for NOS parts, if you could find them,....you find a really nice Camaro with solid floors, rockers, quarters,.....etc,...and you decide to use all of this donor car, except for the firewall and cowl? What's the difference between removing all those original panels one by one and replacing everything separately, to the existing firewall, or attaching all those part complete in car form, to the existing firewall?

I don't know why people get fixated on "where is the line". The line for you or the line for me maybe at different spots. The important thing is disclosure for what was truely done to car in it's restoration. No half baked words like a GM body was used. Just spill the beans and be honest. Honesty is what builds reputations.

The great thing about this site is the knowledge people have in recognizing fakes. If I ever had the money to buy a high end car rest assure I would be sending a few PM's to a few people here if they willing to help me.

[Pro Stock John]

Frank I agree, I'd assume some guys on here know about the restoration of this car and could elaborate. I assume by the comments I've read that another body was used. I know of other cars are are rebodies.

[FTC]

I don't know why people get fixated on "where is the line". The line for you or the line for me maybe at different spots. The important thing is disclosure for what was truely done to car in it's restoration. No half baked words like a GM body was used. Just spill the beans and be honest. Honesty is what builds reputations.

The great thing about this site is the knowledge people have in recognizing fakes. If I ever had the money to buy a high end car rest assure I would be sending a few PM's to a few people here if they willing to help me.



Frank I agree, I'd assume some guys on here know about the restoration of this car and could elaborate. I assume by the comments I've read that another body was used. I know of other cars are are rebodies.

I'd hardly call myself "fixated" on it but, never the less, my "line" so to speak is, I lean toward being more "ok" with a body swap if ...

1. Indeed all or most of the parts would need replacing with new or used parts anyway, (and a factory built body is often built better than a body shop built body)...

and 2. I'd prefer the original firewall and dash/cowl sections be transferred to the donor body, maybe it's just me but separating the VIN and cowl tags from the original and installing on another body, meaning two cars and two VINs and cowl tags are being tampered with,..just screams crooked, deceiving and/or illegal to me, whether it's disclosed or not.

[Big Block Bill]

" I'd prefer the original firewall and dash/cowl sections be transferred to the donor body, maybe it's just me but separating the VIN and cowl tags from the original and installing on another body, meaning two cars and two VINs and cowl tags are being tampered with,..just screams crooked, deceiving and/or illegal to me, whether it's disclosed or not.

And this is not crooked? No, it's illegal and a federal crime. Bill

[FTC]

" I'd prefer the original firewall and dash/cowl sections be transferred to the donor body, maybe it's just me but separating the VIN and cowl tags from the original and installing on another body, meaning two cars and two VINs and cowl tags are being tampered with,..just screams crooked, deceiving and/or illegal to me, whether it's disclosed or not.

And this is not crooked? No, it's illegal and a federal crime. Bill

From what I gather from your reply, you are stating whether someone removes two sets on VIN tags and cowl tags and installs the COPO ones on the donor, or someone removes the entire firewall and cowl/dash section and transfers it to a donor, they are both illegal and a federal crime? Then why is this story about #9 COPO being debated about, and the only thing being discussed is whether or not the re-body is being disclosed to the potential buyers, and how the wording is shady,.......shouldn't the crime be what's being discussed?

[Big Block Bill]

Being a licensed Rebuilder and Parts Recycler in the State of Illinois for the last 37 years, it is my understanding that taking vin tags and or sections of a vehicles body containing vin tags and installing them on another body is Illegal and a federal crime, but I am no lawyer so to get a true read on the subject someone with a law degree will have to respond to this. I am sure there are a few lawyers in our Yenko.net family so I hope one will give us their professional opinion on the matter to set the record straight. Bill

[Rumbleguts396]

I could be wrong, I believe it may be illegal to simply be in possession of a loose Vin tag in some states.

[RichSchmidt]

A few years back there was someone selling all the critical parts to build a COPO car. The seller was selling the entire firewall cut at the toe boards and A-pillars with title for 10 grand and the numbers matching block for another 10 grand. He had the critical numbers covered up so the car couldn't be black listed in the future. My guess is that the car has been resurrected by now.

[1crossram]

There is what is personally acceptable, as everyone has their own line in the sand and budget. For those of us that need to cross a border into another country like Canada from the USA where the vehicle needs to be exported from the States then imported into Canada (and duty and taxes paid), the line is much clearer. I have driven 6 hours one way, found the car to be rebodied, and drove home. Despite how the vehicle might look or cost, the decision is made by my inability to export the car due to customs regulations.

[FTC]

Being a licensed Rebuilder and Parts Recycler in the State of Illinois for the last 37 years, it is my understanding that taking vin tags and or sections of a vehicles body containing vin tags and installing them on another body is Illegal and a federal crime, but I am no lawyer so to get a true read on the subject someone with a law degree will have to respond to this. I am sure there are a few lawyers in our Yenko.net family so I hope one will give us their professional opinion on the matter to set the record straight. Bill

Thanks for the reply Bill. I too have been in the auto body business for 42 years, an auto painter by trade, I have been running the two shops I have worked at longer than I was the painter in each. That's why red flags fly up every time VINs are discussed. I have seen, just during out of state VIN checks being done for care sales, them get denied or impounded.

Perhaps that's why initially, the statement that "A GM factory assembled body shell was used to correct the extensive body modifications performed during this cars long term drag race history" was used,....so legal implications for re-bodying a car would be avoided. But later on, the statement was made, "Prior to yesterday I had finished my signage for B-J with a clear disclosure of the body replacement done by Floyd."

Seems to me everyone up in arms about this car are just concerned with the wording of the description, and whether or not potential buyers know it was re-bodied or not, and no one is concerned that re-bodying a car might well be completely illegal.

[Pro Stock John]

Careful wording = Trying to avoid future legal issues.

When did Floyd Garrett restore this car, in the 80s?

[Too Many Projects]

Depends on what state and year the rebody was done. Some states did and may still do, allow that IF both vehicles are registered to the same person and the body is used to restore one of them, it is allowed. I had a '67 Camaro that was a combination mutt out of TX about 15 years ago and I talked to their DMV and they were fine with it. I had figured out the original vin of the vehicle and gave her both and she said they had both been registered to the same person and she didn't view the tag swap as malicious or to deceive, which it seriously did but she didn't see it that way. I then called the NICB and asked them about it and the guy said they don't agree with the Texas perception of the law, but once a body/tag has been swapped and the vehicle given a clean TX title, there isn't anything they can do about it.

[Big Block Bill]

I could be wrong, I believe it may be illegal to simply be in possession of a loose Vin tag in some states.


Not if you are a Licensed Rebuilder or Parts Recycler in the State of Illinois as long as you have the Title to support said Vin Tag and it is listed in you SOS Log Book. On anther note, the only one who can be in possession of a Salvage Title in the State of Illinois is an Insurance company, a Licensed Rebuilder, Parts Recycler or a Dealer. Bill

[carnut4life]

Brought 495k after the commission, that's a lot of money for a rebodied car!

[1971ls6]

But it sold for half price!

[Mr70]

During earlier auctioned off Frank Tiegs cars,specifically the '64 T-Bolt,the '68 Shelby GT500KR,and the '70 Boss 429,Steve Davis broke in and said,"During the restoration of this car,a decision was made to use a Donor Body".
Steve even went so far as to say during the '64 T-bolt description,this is a"Re-Body".
..But when Franks' #9 ZL-1 Camaro came up,not one whisper of a Donor Body or Re-body was uttered by Steve or anyone over the PA.

[lycan]

During earlier auctioned off Frank Tiegs cars,specifically the '64 T-Bolt,the '68 Shelby GT500KR,and the '70 Boss 429,Steve Davis broke in and said,"During the restoration of this car,a decision was made to use a Donor Body".
Steve even went so far as to say during the '64 T-bolt description,this is a"Re-Body".
..But when Franks' #9 ZL-1 Camaro came up,not one whisper of a Donor Body or Re-body was uttered by Steve or anyone over the PA.
I noticed that too! Also, remember Craig Jackson's commentary (recorded) about the Tiegs collection prior to the auction ... the #9 ZL-1 has "the original motor".


So, according to Barret Jackson ... this is an original body, original motor car. "One of the finest in existence" (Cunneen report).

[bergy]

Any idea what the seller would net out of that 495k?

[Mr70]

Any idea what the seller would net out of that 495k?


"To sell a vehicle at Barrett-Jackson,the seller is responsible for paying the entry fee (based on the time of day of the auction and the lot number),and a seller's commission of 8% off the hammer price.
The buyer pays a 10% buyer's premium on the Hammer price."

So #9 Hammered at 450k,-8% (36k),the seller goes home with 414K.

[Charley Lillard]

So he lost a couple hundred thousand. If he had known it was a rebody when he bought it he might have held onto the money.

[JoeC]

Craig Jackson had or has ZL-1 #68 so probably knows the story on #9

[markjohnson]

Craig Jackson had or has ZL-1 #68 so probably knows the story on #9

I see what you did there. LOL . . . .

[Too Many Projects]

"To sell a vehicle at Barrett-Jackson,the seller is responsible for paying the entry fee (based on the time of day of the auction and the lot number),and a seller's commission of 8% off the hammer price.
The buyer pays a 10% buyer's premium on the Hammer price."

So #9 Hammered at 450k,-8% (36k),the seller goes home with 414K.
So BJ gets 81 THOUSAND dollars to sell that 1 car !!! Isn't that near legal robbery ?? Holly crap, I gotta start an auction house. I'll undercut them and only charge 4 to the seller and 5% to the buyer...:wink: Anyone want in on that action ...:cool2:

[Stefano]

Best of luck, many have tried!

[Kurt S]

Corollary - B-J got 45+36 = $81K from the sale!

[BJCHEV396]

So BJ gets 81 THOUSAND dollars to sell that 1 car !!! Isn't that near legal robbery ?? Holly crap, I gotta start an auction house. I'll undercut them and only charge 4 to the seller and 5% to the buyer...:wink: Anyone want in on that action ...:cool2:

But their overhead is thru the roof...that's one of the reasons why their buying and selling rates are so high.And the fact that buyers and sellers are willing to pay it!

[BJCHEV396]

"To sell a vehicle at Barrett-Jackson,the seller is responsible for paying the entry fee (based on the time of day of the auction and the lot number),and a seller's commission of 8% off the hammer price.
The buyer pays a 10% buyer's premium on the Hammer price."

So #9 Hammered at 450k,-8% (36k),the seller goes home with 414K.

And I think you pay a higher rate if you buy on the phone or online.

[Mr70]

Barrett-Jackson Bidder Registration Requirements 2024

*On-site Vehicle Buyer's Premium: 10%
*Absentee Vehicle Buyer's Premium: 12%
*On-site Automobilia Buyer's Premium: 15%
*Absentee Automobilia Buyer's Premium: 17%

[DW31S]

So BJ gets 81 THOUSAND dollars to sell that 1 car !!! Isn't that near legal robbery ?? Holly crap, I gotta start an auction house. I'll undercut them and only charge 4 to the seller and 5% to the buyer...:wink: Anyone want in on that action ...:cool2:

There is a whole lot more to the auction business than just what transpires on the block. The auction, in essence, is a clearing house that guarantees the seller will get paid with proper funding, and the buyer will receive a negotiable title. The auction house receives fees from both the seller and buyer to provide these services, and to attract live, as well as off-site buyers. The auctions work for the seller, not the buyer. Mecum often works with the buyer and seller on their fees, but that isn’t to benefit the buyer/seller; it’s to benefit the house, as there are NO fees (other than registration ) unless a vehicle gets sold. As Stefano pointed out, many have tried…the main problem with starting an auction (especially one that consigns and offers classic cars) is staying power. Few have the bankroll to write a check and guarantee that it can be cashed, for say, a couple mil, to a seller, only to have the buyer’s money bounce. The seller is entitled to be paid as he agreed to the terms (fees) and provided a clean title at time of sale. Trust me, it’s not as glamorous as it appears on television. There are numerous ways a buyer can try to weasel their way out and if they’re successful, the auction owns that particular vehicle. I can think of a few fairly well established auction houses that either went belly up, or closed beforehand.

[Too Many Projects]

It was tongue in cheek, guys, just astounded with the costs of selling thru BJ.

[Starship]

If a car has a clean title assigned by any state, isn't the issue of legality or illegality now settled?

[DW31S]

If a car has a clean title assigned by any state, isn't the issue of legality or illegality now settled?

Hard to say…not every state requires titles for antique vehicles. Not all states’ requirements for obtaining a title are the same; uniformity is the problem. Also, it’s easier in some states than others to have a duplicate title processed and printed. Let’s say some unscrupulous soul sells a car and never assigns the title to the new owner (possibly a flipper?). A deal is consummated (possibly for cash) and the car and title go down the road…in some states Mr. Unscrupulous can now apply for a duplicate title (hopefully the next owner titled the car in their name), and legally, he still owns the car (if a newer title than the one he surrendered to the flipper/buyer hasn’t been printed). And…COVID REALLY threw a monkey wrench into it as many MVA offices closed and the backlog became monumental.