Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?

[April L]

Recently purchased a 69 Camaro and trying to figure out what we have. We think it is a COPO, maybe a double. Haven't been able to rule it out. I've been searching the web and have read ALOT of post on this forum. Hoping you guys might be able to help me out.

I'll post a pic of the cowl tag when I figure out how but here is the information:

Body by Fisher
ST69 12437 NOR352686BDY
TR 725 59 B PNT
06A X11D80
The car has been a drag car all of its life and it has not been restored.

[NovaMob03]

the one from the Orlando craigs list. I had a verbal agreement with the seller to buy it, but couldn't get him to check trans & rear end codes. The bdy # doesn't line up with other copo's, no heater box and he had no paperwork. Was raced in PA according to the seller.
Check the axle code & look for CX tag on trans. I'll pm you my ph # if you need more help with what to look for. Been wondering who snagged it

[April L]

To id where inline it falls, partial vin N664 :-)
From camaros.org - "In 69, the body number was assigned when the order was accepted, not when the body when built. Body numbers from cars that were built at the same time can vary significantly, depending on how quickly the order was fulfilled."
Sorry, NovaMob03 about the verbal. We obviously didn't know about that. We are actually friends with the guy we bought it from and were just under the impression he needed the money. We didn't know it was raced in PA, so that is new info for us. Maybe something else for us to research.
We know it is an RS, maybe an RS/SS. The orignal motor is gone but we believe it was a 427 motor. It's still in the area, but we haven't been able to locate it.
Not sure the tranny is original. Numbers are hard to read. It is still set up for racing and it still has the added straps to secure it to the car. We will probably have to pull it out to be able to clearly see it. We don't intend to take the motor out of the car for that.
We have looked for the BE on the axle tube but it's been painted and we haven't had the opportunity to sand it down yet, plus we are not sure exactly where we should be looking for that number. Would like to find that out of course.
It has the correct brake pedal. It has the correct original front disc brakes. It has the original correct 90 degree neck on the radiator. It has the casting number 5468309 master cylinder which was only on the copo and ss big block cars.
It has the correct cowl holes? on the firewall. There are no holes for emblems on the fenders. The car has obviously been modified for racing but the body is still very honest, nice original condition. There is almost no corrosion. It seems to be a real survivor car.

[NovaMob03]

No problem. It was too far away for me to inspect personally and I think he got tired of me asking him to check for this & that. He also agreed to deliver it, but since it was in pieces I'm sure it was easier for him to sell it local.
I saw the radiator, firewall punch & RS traits, but with the X-11 trim, figured it could be an SS and with flared 1/4's it was a toss up....great if copo, but too much work/$$ to resto if an SS/RS.
Hope it turns out in your favor <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif

[April L]

We know it was a big block car by the parts that are still on it. How would you differentiate an RS copo from an RS/SS big block? Are you saying there wouldn't be an RS copo?

[NovaMob03]

RS can be COPO, but not SS. The sgl 3/8 fuel line was missing &amp; so was the heater box from what he told me. The X-11 can be COPO and SS. Front disc brakes can be SS &amp; COPO, so (for me)it came down to having a CX tag &amp; BE stamping
I only got 4 cell phone pictures that were not very good quality. Clearly a home run if it's an RS COPO as there are less than 10 known, I think. Even more rare might be the Frost Green with Green interior COPO...1 of 1 built <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif

[Unreal]

To be a double COPO, (COPO9561 and COPO9737) it would have had 15/16&quot; front sway bar, 140MPH speedo, and 15&quot; wheels from the factory. Of course, if it were a race car, who knows what might have been modified over the years, but the speedo might still be there.

[travlnz28]

The 309 master cylinder was not specific to big block. All 69 Camaros, including Z/28 and SS350, received the same master cylinder. The same disc brake system your car apparently has was standard issue for all 69 Camaros when ordered with that option. With the exception of the JL8 4 wheel disc system. One small caveat is some very early cars my not have received the 309 master.

Good luck with the car and I hope another one has been found!

[April L]

My mistake. I re-read the information about the master cylinder and I misread it the first time. But didn't non big block cars have different front disc brakes than big blocks? I think the fuel line may be there, I just don't think it is connected to anything. Something for us to follow up on. The speedo is gone and of course the 15&quot; factory wheels are obviously gone. So determining the front sway bar would be imperative. How would we measure it correctly? Does anyone have a link to a picture? Sorry, if that sounds silly. I'm learning. It has been a really fun and interesting process. I think my husband may have married a car enthusiast after all. I'm pretty sure it has the 12 bolt rear end, would that automatically make it a BE? It does have the heavy duty suspension as well. I think the axle and the springs are original. There's a plate welded on the side of the frame well for the exhaust hanger on the driver rear. Is that important? We believe that it had a factory 427. It was with the car until a few years ago. They didn't gain anything financially by telling us that part of the story but it is what got us wondering if it was a copo. Unfortunately we can't prove it yet.

[Unreal]

To measure, the sway bar, take a 15/16&quot; open end wrench, and see if it fits. Alternatively, take a crescent wrench, and tighten it on the sway bar, then measure between the jaws.

The rear end code is on the forward side of the passenger side axle tube. Go to camaros.org for a full description. There were probably 15-20 different codes for 69 Camaro 12 bolts. The first thing I would nail down is whether or not your 12 Bolt is a BE.

[April L]

Okay, that's great! I'll do that.

[Fast67VelleN2O]

Don't use anything abrasive on cleaning the axle tube! It could ruin the stamping.

[Vern B]

I too saw the ad on Craigslist and called the guy. He was a little difficult to get info from as he said the car was his dads and he didn't know much about it. I tried to get some info from him,including the axle code. I'm in Fort Myers for the winter and it's a hike up to where the car was, east of Orlando, so I didn't make it up there to look at it myuself. Plus, I think he said he had to be at work by noon, so it was a two day venture for me.

Hopefully the car does tun out to be a COPO for you. Sounds promising so far. If so, I'll probably kick myself for not going up, but on the other it is probably better off in your hands than mine and having to figure out how to get a car in pieces back to Michigan.

Good luck, hope it works out for you!!!

How do you know it has heavy duty suspension? You cannot tell just by looking at it. You would need paperwork to confirm. I tend to agree with NovaMob on the body # not lining up. That would be a real stretch for a COPO.

[jannes_z-28]

If it is an X11 and has clear signs of being a bigblock car it must be a COPO.

How does the trans cross member look? http://www.camaros.org/trans.shtml#Crossmembers

Here is the location of the axlecode.
http://www.camaros.org/drivetrain.shtml#axle

Jan

[NovaMob03]

I was never really made aware of any real signs that it was a true BB car, other than the radiator. Not saying that it's not, but the previous owner just wasn't that helpful over the phone.
I also sent April pix of BE stamping, CX tag and George Zapora's # in case it may have been a Canadian car. Also recommended that she get pix from when it was raced in PA, post them here and attempt to locate past owners for possible documentation

[April L]

Okay, I was able to get under the car this morning and look at the axle tubing and transmission again. I can't get a good look on the tag for the transmission but the first letter is definitely a C and the second letter looks like it could be an X or A. I wish I could see it better. The year (next two numbers) however looks like it might have a 7 or a 2 which would mean it isn't the original transmission, but again I can't see it very well and I'm upside down using a mirror.
For the exciting part... I found the stamping on the rear axle tubing. There has been a ladder bar welded to the tube and it appears the tube was sanded down a bit probably to weld on the ladder bar. The numbers are very hard to read but I can clearly make out E 0510G and from what I am reading in Jerry MacNeish's book the next number would have to be a 2 because you can see the curve of the top of the 2. The E is directly beside the weld. My husband was laughing at me because I was screaming &quot;There's an E!!! I found an E!!!&quot; In addition, it also has to positraction code of letter E underneath the other numbers. And I did confirm it is the 12 bolt rear end. I think I'm excited, but I'm scared to get too excited!
NovaMob has a good idea about finding pictures from when it was racing. In addition to racing in PA we also know it was raced in the SE circuit for NHRA for years. There has to be some information on this car somewhere. I have a few pics that I have taken of the car but I have to figure out where I can put them so I can link to them from this site for people to see.
The previous owner had a lot of personal things going on and wasn't really in a good place. He just wanted it gone. Everytime he looked at it he thought of his dad who has passed away within the last few months. Maybe, as he goes through the grieving process we will be able to get more information from him.

[Mr70]

Were you able to detect a color on the CA or CX trans. tag?...Black..yellow.

[RPOLS3]

Posting pictures of the stampings (trans/rear) or other questionable items would take a lot of the guesswork out of the equation.

[April L]

It's really almost impossible to see the trans tag from the angle with a mirror and a spotlight and the space is so tight I can't get a camera in there. I didn't see a color but I have a very bright light reflecting off of it so I'm really not sure. I'm probably not going to be able to get a picture of the tag without dropping the transmission and since I don't think it's the right one it is doubtful I will do that. Right now the car has a racing 454 and a built Turbo 400 transmission. I think its safe to assume when he took the engine out, he took the trans out too. :-)
Also, as I have said in an earlier post the original engine was with the car until a few years ago. If I can find the motor and get the guy to at least let me take a picture of any identifying numbers still on the motor I think this would go a long way in helping to identify the car. They didn't put the 427 motor in non-copo cars, did they?
As for the the numbers on the rear axle, I tried to take pics of them today with my iPhone. That didn't work out too well so I will try again tomorrow with a digital camera and see if I get better results. As I said before I need to figure out where to put the pics online so I can provide a link.
The previous owner's dad told him the car was a copo. When he bought the car over 25 years ago it was a racecar and had always been a racecar. That was all that mattered which explains why some very important pieces to determine if it is or isn't a copo are missing. This would also explain why someone would've welded over part of the BE on the axle tube. I also feel very fortunate considering how long the car has been a racecar that they didn't cut into the dash to mount the roll bars and that I still have some interior pieces as well. The car even still has the original headliner and interior light.

[427.060]

I use PhotoBucket to host all my pictures. It's easy to use and it's free.
James

[April L]

Thanks James. I will check that out.

[the427king]

I think its great that a person with 1 post and no profile gets alot of handy copo info thats not readily available to the masses ..

[Unreal]

Chuck, I didn't pick up on any secrets. Did I miss something?

[the427king]

I learned alot..!

[WILMASBOYL78]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: the427king</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think its great that a person with 1 post and no profile gets alot of handy copo info thats not readily available to the masses .. </div></div>

I agree...filling out your profile should be a priority for all newcomers...the real value of this site is the transparency...nobody hiding behind the curtain (except maybe Cumby, but that's for a differrnt thread)..anyway...all you newcomers, please fill us in on the details of your pedigree <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/rolleyes.gif we love to know the real story <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif

[SSJunkie68-69]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WILMASBOYL78</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: the427king</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think its great that a person with 1 post and no profile gets alot of handy copo info thats not readily available to the masses .. </div></div>

I agree...filling out your profile should be a priority for all newcomers...the real value of this site is the transparency...nobody hiding behind the curtain (except maybe Cumby, but that's for a differrnt thread)..anyway...all you newcomers, please fill us in on the details of your pedigree <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/rolleyes.gif we love to know the real story <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif </div></div>

Valid Point.

[NovaMob03]

yeah, like Chuck fills out his. Nuthin' says who ya are like a link to an ebay store <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif

[the427king]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbthrea...3742#Post463742 (http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&amp;Main=46300&amp;Number=4637 42#Post463742) I take back my &quot;nice car&quot; post. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif

[April L]

LOL! Clearly, I have no pedigree. But I really do think everyone's help says a lot about the type of people on this site. So willing to help a newbie. I really appreciate it! I have read so many of the post on here trying to educate myself and this thread has been awesome! I'm so glad I'm not the only person learning from it. And it will stay around for a while,so maybe it will benefit a few people in the future as well. I'll be working on the car some more tomorrow with my husband and I'll try to get some pics up. Thanks again. You all have been fabulous. And just so you know, I'm hooked. I have had so much fun with this car. Even if we find out it isn't a copo, I can still say it is a very special car.

[April L]

Found out the car was known as the &quot;Keystone Warrior&quot; for a while. The previous owners dad bought the car in 1987 we believe and this was the name that was being used at that time. The car was burgundy then and may have had gold lettering.

[jannes_z-28]

When you take the pictures from under the car, please include one of the trans crossmember in whole and one close up for the area where the trans mounts to the crossmember.

Jan

[Unreal]

Isn't it an automatic?

[supercomp 8.90]

i have it 14 cars from a yenko from johnson chevy in wis. x-44 d80 car.

[April L]

Jan,
I'm not sure what I'm looking at but I'll go back to the link you sent me when I get under there.
Unreal,
Yes, it is an automatic.
Supercomp 8.90,
Wow! That's pretty exciting!!
Getting a late start today. We'll have some pics up by the end of the day.
Thanks everybody!

[Unreal]

My point was that a TH400 would not have the cross member that was pictured in an earlier post.

[Kurt S]

That's 14 VIN's away from that Yenko. Doesn't mean anything....

[jannes_z-28]

The link has pictures of manual trans crossmembers. If it had an TH400 originally the crossmember should be an oval tube.

Like this one:
http://htsmall.rickscamaros.com/assets/rfg/images/size/265x265/sku/CM-3.jpg

Jan

[supercomp 8.90]

fourteen body #s on the cowl tag.

[April L]

http://s1151.photobucket.com/albums/o628/baleon/?action=view&amp;current=BEaxle-1.jpg

Trying to link to the pics. This is a picture of the axle code. I added an arrow to indicate where the E is and I will also link to the original pic without the arrow in case it is distracting. Give your eyes time to focus. It is very hard to see in the pic but it is most definitely an E. The B is covered by the weld as you can see in the pic but the number is BE 0610G2.

[April L]

You can view the rest of the pics from the above link. I'll add more pictures through the day. If there is anything anyone would like to see to help identify the car, please let me know.
Thanks,
April

[mockingbird812]

April - please use your macro setting on your camera so that you can focus in close (your fuel line is in focus but not the stamping). This is the setting that looks like a flower or tulip. good luck.

[mockingbird812]

I played with adjustments a bit to try and enhance the first alpha character....



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v697/mockingbird812/Decorated%20images/BEaxle-1.jpg

[April L]

Hi Sam,
Wish I had a macro setting. :-) I just have a pretty simple camera. I was hoping I would get a better image but if you stare at it for a bit and let your eyes focus you can see it. At least I can, lol, but maybe that is because I know what it looks life in person. Thanks for fiddling with the image. Maybe that will make it easier for someone else.

[SuperNovaSS]

Take a picture from way further back and then crop it. The stamping may be clearer then. Is the speedo 120 or 140 MPH? Any conclusion on the sway bar?


Jason

[mockingbird812]

April - if no macro setting, back your camera up (i.e. move away from the axle) in order to get a clear focus and shoot at a higher resolution. I can then help you crop your stamping photo so that we can get a close view of it (just send it to me digitally griffithjs.ap@mac.com (mailto:griffithjs.ap@mac.com) or I can even alter it to some extent on photobucket). Experiment with and without flash from different angles watching for washout/glare caused by flash. Without flash, illuminate the axle stamping with a flash lite or other lite source and shine it so that it is at a different angle than the camera. This sometimes helps to highlight the stampings making it easier to read. Good luck.

[April L]

Okay, I'll try that with the BE stamp. I have added a few more pics and have a couple more to add but I'm stopping for lunch - at 3 :-)
Sway bar is 11/16 so I'm not sure what that means.
There's not two sway bars, right? What's the other bar that is behind the springs? Because it's bigger.

[markjohnson]

Wow, that's really a downer if that weld is actually covering the &quot;B&quot; in &quot;BE&quot;. If only they would have welded those ladder bars about one inch more outwards! I think that there was also a &quot;PE&quot; rear axle code also that could also be a candidate for your 12-bolt. I'd have that rear axle cover removed in seconds to see if you have the good COPO &quot;BE&quot; spider gears and clutch plates. There's a good chance that factory stuff is still in there because there many 10-second COPO 427 Camaros that were still running factory 12-bolt Posi carriers instead of spools. That's how durable the factory COPO &quot;BE&quot; components were!

[markjohnson]

By the way, the other bar behind the springs is probably the center link you're speaking of.

[April L]

Mark,
I saw the PE too, but it came with a 10 bolt not a 12 bolt from what I'm reading. I also saw the PE meant a 3.08 gear ratio which would have been too small. I appreciate the advice about removing the rear axle cover but I would be leary of taking anything apart. We may have to if that turns out to be the only way to rule out a PE.
You lost me on the center link. I'm not sure what you mean or what I said that would refer to that. :-) Unless, you're referring to my question about the sway bar, but that's in the front. ?

[L89DRMR]

Hi April,

Removing the cover is no big deal and is really the only way at this point to figure out what you have, especially since you can't be fully sure about the axle stamping. If the gear numbers are correct, the chances are excellent that you have at the very least, a COPO rear-end.

The best of luck to you!
Dave

[April L]

I am pretty positive it IS a BE based all the other evidence. In addition, it currently has a 454 with this rear end and has been raced this way. From my understanding, 3.08 would not work with a 454. I wouldn't object to someone qualified taking off the cover to confirm it but I really don't feel it would be wise for me or my husband to take it off. Even with the cover off, I'm not sure we'd know what we were looking at. :-) We are also going on the assumption that it came with a 427 which would not have come with a PE.

[April L]

Hi Dave,
Thanks!! I was posting at same time you were apparently. I know we may too but I'm not quite prepared to do that yet. Especially considering the other factors.

[April L]

http://s1151.photobucket.com/albums/o628/baleon/?action=view&amp;current=BEaxle-1.jpg

I added a picture of the radiator neck and of where the heater box would have been. It is no longer there but it looks to me like there used to be something there.

Jan - Are the pictures of the transmission crossmember helpful at all?

Does anyone have anymore information on the PE axles? I'm trying to rule out a PE.

Someone asked about the speedometer, the original one is missing. I did put a picture of a sticker that was on the gauge cluster. Don't know if that would help with anything. The speedo and tach were literally cut out of the gauge cluster. It does have a clock in the center but I'm assuming they all did except for the rare fuel gauge.

[PeteLeathersac]

Welcome aboard April!
Others can confirm but I think PE's were 10-bolts so if untouched it won't be that.
On the Keystone Warrior thing, there was a drag strip near Winnipeg Canada operating as Keystone Dragways later called Bison Dragway.
Long shot but it may be worth searching their photo archives etc also running the Vin by George at GM Canada Vintage services, see links below.

Keystone/Bison website...
http://www.mts.net/~red67/index.html

GM Canada Vintage services...
http://www.vintagevehicleservices.com/options.html


Best o' luck w/ everything!.
<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif
~ Pete

[92646]

April what are going to do with this car?

[mockingbird812]

April.

I believe you can do something helpful to yourself here by simply removing the diff. cover and photographing or describing the contents and their stampings. If COPO gears are in there, the site experts will be able to tell you. Not hard to do, just remove the diff cover bolts and pop it off.

[April L]

Okay, we are going to try to take the cover off tomorrow. Will I be able to see numbers with the cover off or will I have to take something out? I can tell you now, I will not be comfortable taking anything out of that rear end. I DO NOT want to mess anything up. ;-)
I'll also try and get a hold of the guy in Canada tomorrow. If anyone knows any other resources for finding out information on the car I could use it, I will call anyone who can help me. It's already a special car to me but I think there's more here. According to what you all are telling me, if it turns out to be a copo it will be a VERY special car.


Pictures of the car-
http://s1151.photobucket.com/albums/o628/baleon/

[Unreal]

If you ordered a tach, and no console, or with console, but not gauge package, you got center fuel gauge. Auto without console, would have been column mount.

As for the curved neck radiator, the pic shows the neck to be clocked incorrectly. Factory curved neck was angled up at about 10-12 degrees. Not saying that one is not original, as it is possible that for some reason, the neck was resoldered. Clearly, that row of braze is not factory. Look for stamped metal radiator tags on either side and report your findings.

I have a repop radiator in my Yenko clone, and I had the radiator rotated and re-soldered at a radiator shop. Cost me $10.

That tranny crossmember is of the style of the TH400 crossmember, but I don't know enough about them to comment on its originality. However, that crossmember was only used with the TH400, and if you ordered a b/b auto, (396 or 427) you got the TH400.

[m22mike]

April
When you get the cover off, try and get a good photo of these #' on the ring gear. Try and find someone with a Macro setting on there camera. You may have to rotate a rear wheel to bring it into view. Both wheels need to be off the ground, use two jack stands, one under each axle tube.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b107/m22mike/parts%20detail/BE3916226.jpg

Also try and get shots of the Side gear, and the hole I have circled.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b107/m22mike/parts%20detail/BE16toothsidegear.jpg

And you are correct, do not try and remove anything but the rear cover.
Have fun.

Mike <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif

[Fast67VelleN2O]

What about pictures of what the car actually looks like! I am interested to see this cool old drag car!

-Matt

[April L]

LOL, Matt!! When we get done fooling around underneath it we will get it off the jack stands and out of the garage. I'll be able to get some outside pics then. :-)
I will try to get a pic from a different angle on the radiator. It does turn up just slightly but it doesn't look like it in the picture. Bobby and I were both wondering what the heck was added onto the side. Not sure what purpose it serves. There doesn't appear to be any welding anywhere else. I'll see if I can find any numbers and let you know.
The sticker on the gauge cluster has a cluster number and then it list a number beside speedo and nothing beside tach so I'm really not sure what it means if anything or if it would be helpful at all.
Thanks guys!! I really appreciate all of the help.

http://s1151.photobucket.com/albums/o628/baleon/

[jannes_z-28]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: April L</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Jan - Are the pictures of the transmission crossmember helpful at all?
</div></div>

Thanks, yes very helpful.

Since X11 cars were normally equipped with smallblock engines a TH400 crossmember is a pretty strong evidence of this being a COPO since that transmission is for bigblocks only.


But for you to be on the safe side I would suggest you to get it inspected.


Good Luck with it <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/Can-I-Have-It.gif <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif


Jan

[April L]

Well, BUMMER! That didn't help us. Not sure how bad it hurts (it is still a 12 bolt and it does still have the E in the stamping on the axle tube) but I didn't find what I had hoped for. You guys were, of course, right on the money that it wouldn't be hard to remove. ;-) Just took a little time. I posted the pics. The cover is still off so I can get other pics if there is something else you'd like to see.


http://s1151.photobucket.com/albums/o628/baleon/

[BARRY]

looks like it has 456 gears what are all the numbers on the ring gear can not see in pics

[April L]

Okay Barry, which one is the ring gear?

[budnate]

looks like a ring gear spacer......

[Fast67VelleN2O]

Actually thats a 3 series OPEN carrier with a mini spool and a ring gear spacer.

[April L]

Alright guys, you lost me. What does all that mean? Also, how could it be a PE with 12 bolts? I'm soooooo confused. Speak slowly with lots of pictures. :-)

http://s1151.photobucket.com/albums/o628/baleon/

[Fast67VelleN2O]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: April L</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Alright guys, you lost me. What does all that mean? Also, how could it be a PE with 12 bolts? I'm soooooo confused. Speak slowly with lots of pictures. :-)

http://s1151.photobucket.com/albums/o628/baleon/ </div></div>

A PE rear end is a 10 bolt rear only. So don't even bring that up. It CANNOT be a PE with the fact that its a 12 bolt rear end. It is very likely that you have a BE 12 bolt rear end housing, however, everything inside the housing has been replaced. There is a 12 bolt 3 series open (non posi) carrier installed with a ring gear spacer and a set of 4 series 4.56 gears. None of those parts are original to a 12 bolt BE rear end.

-Matt

[April L]

Okay, thank you Matt. I suppose that is not unusual considering it was a race car to have had all that stuff replaced. If you have ruled out with certainty for me that the PE is NOT a possibility then the only other option is the BE. BE only came on copo cars if I have learned correctly. And with all the other items, evidence points to a copo car. ??? My next step? Owner history? Some type of documentation? Certification?

Ugh, roller coaster. :-)

[markjohnson]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fast67VelleN2O</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Actually thats a 3 series OPEN carrier with a mini spool and a ring gear spacer. </div></div>

Ditto to this information. Well identified and said!

[TDW]

Back-tracking all the previous owners is a good way to find out what you have. That is where I would go for now. Find out where the car was raced, search the tracks it was raced at for pics, try to find some of the older racers in the area where it was raced. Hit the local cruises with some pics of the car and ask around. Someone will recognize it. If there are any speed shops around, hang a pic on the bulliten board there asking for any info on the car. Check with the machine shops in the area the car came from. Same thing with the bulliten board at the machine shop. Ask the local car guys for contacts that may have raced when the car was on the track. There may be some old guy that has all the answers, you just have to find him.

[April L]

Thank you Tony. That sounds like a plan. Thanks again everyone!! I really do appreciate all of your help.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

I would also try to short circuit the search and go with a title history search here in PA. The form is DL-135 IIRC, and will cost $5 and needs to be notarized. This form is available on the PA site:

http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/pdotforms/dl_forms/dl-135.pdf

[jannes_z-28]

They made a bunch of BE axles at the same time, since they are put in a not so common car the date codes for the BE axles are limited. Maybe Kurt can clearify if the datecodes on this one falls with in the range of know BE axles.

Jan

[PeteLeathersac]

0610 G2 is exactly as other known BE's!

Keep digging April!
<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif
~ Pete

[April L]

Awesome!! Thanks, I will definitely keep digging. :-)

[Kurt S]

Yup, known axle code.

Everything I see points to this being a COPO. That and $3 will get you a coffee. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/wink.gif

I assume the car had/has a console?
http://www.camaros.org/options.shtml#id

It's not in the Yenko order group, IMO.

[April L]

Thanks Kurt. LOL, I think that's worth more than a cup of coffee coming from you, besides what car person doesn't love coffee. I didn't think it would be a Yenko either. Still trying to do some research on it's history. Hopefully I will find out more about it. Now that the front fenders are back on, I'll try to get some exterior pics posted in the next day or so.

[Unreal]

Since all Yenkos had the COPO9737, and yours does not have the the larger sway bar, it points away from Yenko, but still points toward COPO. Also, virtually no Yenkos had console.

[Stefano]

An incorrect sway bar on an old race car doesn't say much. Most drag cars ran with it disconnected or completely taken off. However finding the correct original 13/16&quot; sway bar could have been a positive clue for COPO 9737.

I have never seen a Yenko 9561 with an interior color other than Black STD code 711.

April, you might want to see if the front springs still have tags on them. Some springs had specific applications, not just big block vs small block.

An M40 crayon mark under the firewall paint would also be another positive clue for this particular car.

Very few COPOs which exist today have 100% documentation / verification.

Congrats on your find!

[April L]

Unreal, it doesn't have a console. I don't know if it did originally. I never really thought it would be a Yenko. Were doubles only made for Yenko?
Hopefully we can figure out its history. I have started a new job and it's been a little overwhelming. There has to be information somewhere. I think somebody ordered this specific car. It does seem to be an oddball. :-)
Stefano,thanks. There aren't any tags on the springs but I don't know about the crayon mark. That is something I will have to look for.
Still have pictures coming at some point!!! Sorry guys!! Have several things I still want to follow up on. I'll post when I find out anything new. The numbers on the glass are SST 2223. They have been there for MANY years. Maybe I'll be able to find something from that and I have a few other things that people have suggested that I'm working on.

[April L]

It's been a while. As those of you that have followed this post know, I am quite the novice. I have come to realize I may not have the resources available to me to research and restore this car to its deserved standing. I feel like the right person with the right resources and contacts could document this car properly. With that in mind, we are considering listing it for sale, probably on ebay since we can get national exposure this way. The longer we take, the harder it will be and we don't want such a great car to waste away in our garage. Do have a question though, should we list the VIN and the cowl tag info in the auction or not? From what I've seen this can become an issue with dishonest people using numbers to make a clone car look like a real COPO. Interested in your thoughts.
Thanks,
April

[Kurt S]

Posting the numbers isn't an issue. Look at all the cars that have the numbers listed and pics too.

[April L]

Hi Guys.

We have listed the car on ebay. We need to update the listing to address some negative comments I saw this morning when I came to post here. The item number is 231162189837.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/231162189837?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&amp;_trksid=p39 84.m1555.l2649

[April L]

If anyone wants to come look at the car in person we would be glad to make arrangements to do that.

[Tracker1]

April, have you made any attempt to find the original engine? If, as your eBay auction says, you have good information that the original 427 was still with the car just 7 years ago I don't quite understand why you wouldn't have tracked it down by now. I (and many others on this site) have tracked down numbers-matching engines that have been separated from their cars for 30-40years. Seven years is a joke...can't be more than three phone calls between you and that engine.

[April L]

Not for an opening bid of $20,000. I haven't. We don't have the resources or the time. We are selling it for what we have in it. We're not trying to get rich or pull anything over on anyone. We just lucked up on this opportunity. It's not what we do for a living or even a serious hobby. We work too many hours to realistically research the car anymore than we already have. This is one of the reasons we are selling it. We truly believe we have gem and it deserves to be with someone who has the capability of what you said, tracking down 30-40 years worth of history. It's had the same owner for 30 years before us whose son is emotionally unable or unwilling to help beyond what we already know.

[John]

Here is the ebay link to the car...

1969 COPO ??? on Ebay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/231162189837?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&amp;_trksid=p39 84.m1555.l2649)

.... Good luck with the sale. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif

[April L]

Thank you John. I tried to put the link up yesterday and it didn't work for me. :-)

[69z28302]

Wondering if the buyer was a member on the site?

Mike