Authenticating A COPO

[Super_Z28]

Where can someone take a Copo or other High-End GM to get it authenticated ? I have heard some say GM Tech Guild ... Im interested in getting Bullet-Proof documentation from the most credible source available ... Any suggestions ???

[Bill Pritchard]

GM Tech Guild? <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/hmmm.gif Never heard of it, but I doubt there's anyone or any group within GM currently that can do what you're looking for. For my money, if you post all pertinent info here, you'll get as much bulletproof 'documentation' as you can get anywhere.

[William]

There are no Chevy build records and with the current body of knowledge near-perfect clones are easy to create. Camaro Hi-Performance can examine a car to determine how technically correct it is. There are VIN lists for ZL-1s, Gibb Novas and Yenko Deuce Novas.

Pontiac has PHS records back to '58 or so; there are Olds build records but only back to '72.

There is info on GM cars imported to Canada but I'm not certain it fits your &quot;bullet-proof&quot; requirement.

[Super_Z28]

Thanks Bill ... Im gathering info about the car and will freely submit everything as I document it, but it goes a long long way when a MacNeish type &quot;expert&quot; renders a professional opinion ... I was hoping GM of Canada could do more than the historical paperwork

[Super_Z28]

Thanks William ... The car is Canadian and I have all the Documents from GM historical ... I want to verify the car wasnt built from their records

[1969L78Nova]

Super Z28,

Are you referring to this ad in todays (June 2,2012)Toronto Star ?:

&quot;69 Camaro COPO, 427/425 hp, 4 speed, Original drive line, highly optioned including deluxe interior, rosewood wheel, beautifully restored, full owner history including GM Canada documentation. Very rare blue chip collectible. $168,000. Call 416 917 4117.

[Super_Z28]

No, I havent seen that one yet ... Im hoping to help others who want to buy a high end classic without having to worry its a fake or a re-body or some other major flaw that some others have found to be the case

[bergy]

My Canadian Pace car came with all of the ownership history. It's important to be able to talk to all of the past owners to make sure that there are no &quot;gaps&quot;.

[Super_Z28]

MTO records only go back to 2004 ... I have the original owners name but havent been able to verify him as of yet

[BARRY]

HI i have been told you can go to the mto on kelle st in toronto and get the past owners for a price??????????

[Super_Z28]

I appreciate your reply ... Is that above and beyond the lame sellers package I can get for $20 ...

[Super_Z28]

I appreciate your reply ... Is that above and beyond the lame sellers package I can get for $20 ...

[Super_Z28]

Thanks Im on it Monday morning

[Hylton]

MTO has records dating back to the first time a vehicle was registered in Ontario. You need to speak to someone at the head office in Kingston to get the info.

[ss427copo]

seems &quot;light&quot; for a COPO car; then again, I haven't seen it either.

[bergy]

There are a lot of rare Canadian cars that have been exported back into the U.S. over the years. If they were Ontario cars (not sure about the other provinces), they had to cross the boarder with an Ontario Used Vehicle Information package. Section 3 of that package lists all previous Ontario owners of the car. Canadian documentation (after 1968) is a wonderful thing, but track down those owners &amp; get statements for your records.

[Super_Z28]

Ill try Keele St and Kingston ... Somewhere the original records exist ... I talked to George at GM Historical about getting the original bill of sale, and though he didnt deny it existed, in he did say the freedom act here in Canada wouldnt allow him to share that info even if he had it...

[DW31S]

For my money, Jerry MacNeish is the way to go. I say this NOT because he is a personal friend, but because in the real world of big-buck Camaros his credentials and &quot;blessings&quot; are well accepted. He is recognized as the &quot;go to guy&quot; to authenticate or DIS-PROVE a collectible Camaro. I know a fellow that found an old race car that has a pretty good likelihood of being a COPO. I keep suggesting that he call MacNeish to verify the car. In my opinion that fee MacNeish charges could add significant value to the car, and if turns out NOT to be a COPO (all signs show it is), then no big deal---he owns the car for about $500.00 more.
I kinda got away from Camaros over the years and concentrated my efforts on my REAL PASSION--OLDSMOBILES. I remember years ago buying some parts from Brauer (Sterling VA) to finish up a '69 Pace Car, and he had just acquired a REAL GM P-O-P machine and tape--we were laughing saying in years people will probably be faking P-O-Ps, stamping blocks, and faking trim tags. Who woulda guessed........................
Oh yea, one more thing, in the Oldsmobile world &quot;F&quot; heads (1970 W-30) are hard to find and very pricey.........now there are more of those heads mysteriously surfacing than Olds made and 1969 H/O intakes are being reproduced--imagine 25 years ago thinking someone would actually reproduce P-O-Ps, trim tags, and CAST IRON Oldsmobile intake manifolds------Oh what a web we weave!!!!

[Super_Z28]

Thanks DW ... Jerry was very gracious in helping me last month on another car matter, and your right he's the go to guy ... I emailed him this morning to see if he would come to Canada as Im sure there would be a long long line up to seek his services ... I asked him last month and he's very busy but said it was a possibilty ... If not I will arrange to take the car to him ... If anyone else is interested in Jerry coming to Toronto, nows the time to let him know ...

[bergy]

For a high dollar car - get every piece of documentation that you can. I see the process as having three legs to rest on: 1. Physical inspection &amp; certification, 2. Factory/dealer paperwork, and 3. Ownership history &amp; contact info.

[William]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DW31S</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For my money, Jerry MacNeish is the way to go. I say this NOT because he is a personal friend, but because in the real world of big-buck Camaros his credentials and &quot;blessings&quot; are well accepted. He is recognized as the &quot;go to guy&quot; to authenticate or DIS-PROVE a collectible Camaro. I know a fellow that found an old race car that has a pretty good likelihood of being a COPO. I keep suggesting that he call MacNeish to verify the car. </div></div>

I have also known JM for years, helped with the '69 book, tagged along on a few appraisals. Don't place the &quot;authenticate&quot; or &quot;verify&quot; expectation on him. NOBODY can do that for a COPO without a VIN-stamped original engine or bullet-proof factory docs. As I previously stated it is far too easy to build a perfect clone these days; plenty of them out there already. Everybody knows the parts needed; all you have to do is find a Norwood 8 cylinder coupe built 02D or later; nice if it was a factory Muncie 4-speed. I've had BE axles, XT wheels, HD BB radiators, those parts are out there.

I can quickly think of two people that &quot;verified&quot; cars that turned out to be something less. What do you think happened next?

[John]

... Do they do any &quot;certification&quot; a the Camaro Nationals&quot; ?

... Here is the link.... It is coming up this month in Maryland.

http://www.mdcamaroclub.com/Nationals.htm


Good Luck <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif

[Super_Z28]

Thanks again William ... We plan to go through the car with a medical camera scope to verify new VINs were not welded in ... Impossible to finish inside the heater box panel or cowl lip ... I will have it pulled apart and ready for Jerry to do a &quot;full&quot; inspection ... I know pics exist of the renovation and am trying to track them down ... I believe the motor to be original and again I will not stop until some of the top experts feel it is undeniably real or stamped ... For the integrity of the car and the hobby I will not stop until &quot;bullet proof&quot; documentation clears or convicts the car ...

[William]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Super_Z28</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks again William ... We plan to go through the car with a medical camera scope to verify new VINs were not welded in ... Impossible to finish inside the heater box panel or cowl lip </div></div>

After 37 years in the business/hobby I've seen a lot. I have never re-bodied a car or been a party to it. However it is possible to re-locate the entire panels with the hidden VINs. The heater box panel is particularly easy; just punch out the spot welds. My last Z/28 had right side cowl damage and it took the shop maybe 2 hours to R &amp; R the entire side pod. As for the cowl top Chevy used the same piece on Novas for many years; I think it was about $9 new. It is also spot-welded in place.

There are other better ways of detecting a poor re-body and I'm sure not going to go into them here. But someone who knows the cars well would know how to do it.

[Super_Z28]

Im hoping the car is true but I want to know 100% that it is one that was never touched ... Believe me when I tell you this is a show stopping restoration and will be harder to detect if any dirty work has been done to it .... I will hold the car out there for all to scrutinize ... I have collected sports memorabilia for 30 years and the profiteers and scammers have destroyed that hobby ... I will do my part to stop them from destroying this one !!!

[BARRY]

who restored the car

[Super_Z28]

I will let out all that info shortly, but were still gathering info on the car ... The members here have been amazing and have given us numerous solid leads for us to follow ...

[Hylton]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bergy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For a high dollar car - get every piece of documentation that you can. I see the process as having three legs to rest on: 1. Physical inspection &amp; certification, 2. Factory/dealer paperwork, and 3. Ownership history &amp; contact info. </div></div>


Very sound advice Bergy! <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/headbang.gif

[HiHorse]

Post serial number of car. Someone may know the car.

[smalltirecars]

Nobody mentioned the car in question. Are we talking about a yellow L89 Camaro?

Well..............

[smalltirecars]

Well.....is it a yellow L89?

[Stefano]

Who found the car and who restored it can be very important components to the equation. There are some who have had no issue, restamping VINs and codes into various parts as well as affixing reproduced VIN and trim tags to various vehicles which they have been involved with, in order to fool or defraud someone down the road.

There can be an established reputation, good or bad.

I am going to disagree with William on this issue. There are occasions where based on the evidence presented that a vehicle can be verified beyond a reasonable doubt as authentic, even without it's original engine or any factory/dealer paperwork.

As an example, take the Yellow/Yellow 1969 Z28 that we are currently restoring.

It does not have the original engine and it has no factory paperwork, However, it is beyond a reasonable doubt a real Yellow/Yellow Z28.

This car holds a Certificate of authenticity from our Company as well as other certificates of authenticity.

I will agree with William that once a Vehicle has been completely restored that the task of verifying becomes much more difficult to accomplish if even at all possible.

I have seen individuals verify/certify cars with little to no history with no factory paperwork and absolutely not one original drive train component.

[William]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have seen individuals verify/certify cars with little to no history with no factory paperwork and absolutely not one original drive train component. </div></div>

So have I. Doesn't always work out so well.

http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt65/JJZ109/image001-13.png

I am wondering why you would expect and want more from GM vintage services. If the original build sheet that came with the car when new cannot be had, the GM docs that are available today is as good as it gets. It sounds like you are worried the vin # for this car has been circulated and you suspect a car has been created from the available paperwork. If thats the case,then for my money anyways,I would seek Jerrys help to try and determine exactly what the car is. Go through the process and don't take any shortcuts. If its important do it right.

[Stefano]

Here is a JM Certified COPO (http://s9.photobucket.com/albums/a79/StefanoBimbi/X11%20D80%20Lemans%20COPO/)

[Stefano]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefano</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Here is a JM Certified COPO (http://s9.photobucket.com/albums/a79/StefanoBimbi/X11%20D80%20Lemans%20COPO/) </div></div>

Incomplete owner history.
No factory or dealer paperwork.
Not one original drivetrain component.
Certified after complete and extensive restoration.

[William]

Hope that works out for him.

[Stefano]

William,

You certainly have quite a bit of knowledge about first generation Camaros and have been dealing with them for quite some time and I appreciate and respect your knowledge, contributions as well as what you have done and continue to do with CRG.

However, it seems to me that you are straddling both sides of the fence on this issue.

You are stating on one hand that you can't verify a COPO w/o factory/dealer paperwork and/or an original engine, then on the other you support and endorse an individual for hire who does certify COPOs without your requisite parameters,and who does so on a fairly regular basis?

Ed Cuneen has been out of the mix for a long time.

[William]

I'm not on any fence. Jerry and I have been friends for some time and he is free to do as he pleases. We agree to disagree on some of the stuff he does. I know I talked him out of one &quot;COPO&quot; certification years ago. The car had nothing more than a BE axle dated several weeks AFTER the car was built and evidence of a ZL2 hood. 25 years ago I added ZL2, N33, N34 and a few other options to a '69 Z/28. I watched that &quot;all original car&quot; sell at R-S last January. I laughed as people checked to see if it had a flat-bottom air cleaner. Of course it did.

In my 15 years at CPX some of our customers built clones. One of them, a black '69 SS-RS L78 convert, started life as an early-production Le Mans blue SS350. The current owner was quite disappointed to hear the real story. Every part in that car is date-code correct.

What I can say is this: given a reasonable budget and some time a knowledgeable shop could build whatever you want [exc ZL1] and no one will be able to prove it isn't real.

Therein lies the peril in &quot;certifying&quot; undocumentable cars.

[Hylton]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: William</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What I can say is this: given a reasonable budget and some time a knowledgeable shop could build whatever you want [exc ZL1] and no one will be able to prove it isn't real.

Therein lies the peril in &quot;certifying&quot; undocumentable cars.
</div></div>

Prove it isn't real? A restored car is fake unless proven otherwise and it 's been proven that a JM Cert is no proof it's the real deal.

[CJP_69]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[quote=Stefano] Here is a JM Certified COPO (http://s9.photobucket.com/albums/a79/StefanoBimbi/X11%20D80%20Lemans%20COPO/) </div></div>

Incomplete owner history.
No factory or dealer paperwork.
Not one original drivetrain component.

My scuncio project falls into this category. Jerry inspected it along with one of my other cars a few years ago. He concurred with what I already believed based on the assessment of the car. Like him or not, he is a well respected member of the camaro hobby. Everyone has their own comfort level, and if after performing your due diligence, a car doesn't rise to your threshold, you don't buy it. I hear what William is saying but I do agree with Stefano. In a perfect world, original drivelines and bulletproof docs are what everyone would like. The reality is, lots of these cars were beat to death and thrown away. Should I not restore my car as a copo because it's missing the above? Obviously it will never be worth what a documented, original drivetrain car would be and that's okay too. Restored cars do pose a challenge. Hopefully there are &quot;before&quot; pics and the resto is documented as such. My opinion.